Mag should be the next frame DE should look at

[(PSN)Chel-El]

Also she may initially cost a lot of energy, but both the vacuum pull and vacuum bullet jump makes up for this. 

I manually vacuum money, mods, health and energy to keep Mag and my inventory topped off :) 

Check out my topic Mag Mains on general discussion it's more constructive there 

I find wishful thinking posts/topics not that practical or helpful in-game 

Edited October 11, 2017 by (PS4)Chel-El

[Mudfam]

People really need to stop with the blind fanboy defending of Mag.

I like Mag, I play Mag, I like her design. But oh man does she need more than one ability to be useful past level 20.

Don't say polarise does anything. It doesn't.

Don't say crush is a useful ability. It isn't.

Don't say Mag can strip armour. 3 lengthy ability casts, an augment and a build that also has strength, efficiency, duration and range doesn't qualify as a justifiable cost to just strip armour.

Is Mag viable? Sure, a rolling turd is viable with the weapons and mods available in this game, that doesn't make the turd itself good.

Mag is hopelessly broken past baby levels. Having a frame on which 3/4 abilities are completely nullified by enemy scaling and don't retain even a small utilty purpose is not acceptable. It needs to be fixed. She doesn't need to nuke everything in sight, she doesn't need to trivialise the game with CC or whatever, she just needs any small reason to use something other than her 2 so that she's fun to play.

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Isnt duration only affects the active time of it and not its expansion?

I once made a mag build with the lowest possible duration and highest range and the wave died before it could reach the maximum range.

I couldn't tell you for sure on the max range.  Maybe MagPrime would know for sure.  I do know that with my range of 12.8 m I can see it reach that range.  Thats with my range stat being 160%.

[(PSN)Chel-El]

You lie

Polarize does 4 or more things simultaneously yet you say it doesn't do anything? 

please go to WF wiki and brush up before spreading more shards here 

Edited October 11, 2017 by (PS4)Chel-El

[Mudfam]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Chel-El said:

You lie

Polarize does 4 things simultaneously yet you say it doesn't do anything? 

please go to WF wiki and brush up before spreading more shards here 

Not one of them is even remotely useful. If stripping armour or shields with polarise has a noticeable effect on the enemy then you really didn't need to do it in the first place. Both the strip and the damage are absolutely pathetic and don't scale at all. The shards are useless, magnetise doesn't need pathetic little shards, it scales with our weapons, hence why it is the only practically useful ability in her kit. It also restores your shields. Oh, what do you know, shields are useless too, and they recharge on their own anyway.

"Doing stuff" isn't enough, you need to insert a "useful" in there. It's all just useless fluff.

[Mudfam]

20 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I couldn't tell you for sure on the max range.  Maybe MagPrime would know for sure.  I do know that with my range of 12.8 m I can see it reach that range.  Thats with my range stat being 160%.

The wave starts at 10m affected by ability range, it then travels 7.5m per second for 5 seconds (additional 37.5m total) affected by duration.

All irrelevant, because the ability does absolutely nothing whatsoever.

[(PSN)Chel-El]

Polarize can:

1 strip armor and shields

2 create shards for magnetize

3 replenish squad, companion, cryopod & excavator shields 

4 self heal basically sacrificing energy for shield health 

5 something about enemy shields bursting in cascade and others I prolly missed 

On its own you may nitpick and underestimate each ability but once paired or properly sequenced as others have suggested it here, then you'll see. Try Ordosan's 3,4,3. 

On another post I compared it to Overwatch's underrated Sombra. They both require a proper ability loop or you'll end up missing synergy/efficiency and deem them useless.

Edited October 11, 2017 by (PS4)Chel-El

[TheLexiConArtist]

33 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I couldn't tell you for sure on the max range.  Maybe MagPrime would know for sure.  I do know that with my range of 12.8 m I can see it reach that range.  Thats with my range stat being 160%.

The Wiki text posted earlier is slightly misleading in language.

• Polarise has a static rate of expansion (unaffected by mods).
• Range sets the distance at which the wave spawns from its source (Mag), plus the radius of explosions from enemies hit.
• Duration sets the amount of time the wave continues to expand from its initial point.

Basically, with a base range of 8, expansion of 7.5 and base duration of 5, the following mathematically applies:

• Polarise covers a distance of ~45m at base
• Range statically increases the starting distance and ending distance by 0.08m per 1%.
• Duration increases the ending distance by 0.05*7.5 = 0.375m per 1%.

However, Simulacrum testing shows that these numbers are slightly inaccurate (probably expansion speed), but relationally sound. Duration has a much greater effect than range.

• Base Polarise covers ~40m
• Adding Narrow Minded (34% Range, 199% Duration) expects ~77m but actually covers ~64m
• Adding Fleetex/Overex (40% Duration, 190% Range) expects ~30m but actually covers ~27.5m

Those three roughly waypoint-derived numbers generally agree within reasonably small error margin that the actual rate of expansion is 6.25m/s.

Edited October 11, 2017 by EDYinnit

[Mudfam]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Chel-El said:

Polarize can:

1 strip armor and shields

2 create shards for magnetize

3 replenish squad, companion, cryopod & excavator shields 

4 self heal basically sacrificing energy for shield health 

5 something about enemy shields bursting in cascade and others I prolly missed 

On its own you may nitpick and underestimate each ability but once paired or properly sequenced as others have suggested it here, then you'll see. Try Ordosan's 3,4,3. 

On another post I compared it to Overwatch's underrated Sombra. They both require a proper ability loop or you'll end up missing synergy/efficiency and deem them useless.

Did you read my posts at all? Clearly I'm very well aware of all this, since I specifically discussed all of it. Do you understand why I'm saying these things are not useful past very low levels? Thing is, they're not useful even there, because at those levels you absolutely do not need them in the first place. Weaken the defences of an enemy that doesn't really have any in the first place..? Why? Just think about this for one second please.

The one thing that can still be useful past baby levels is your so called "3,4,3" combo, which is actually inferior to 4,3,3 btw. But that's an absolutely enormous investment on every front for something that is normally very straight-forward. It still stops working completely past a certain level, thanks to warframe's scaling being exponential and polarise not scaling at all.

I can understand your enthusiasm for Mag, but you can't just ignore the reality of the game completely and simply pretend than any of this has any measurable positive effect whatsoever. This would be delusional.

If anything I said doesn't make sense to you I'm happy to explain it in detail, I can give exact numbers for how enemies scale and everything.

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

The one thing that can still be useful past baby levels is your so called "3,4,3" combo, which is actually inferior to 4,3,3 btw.

The idea is probably to have the first wave on the way before you Frac-Crush, to make things a little more expedient, but I'm not sure how the ranges/timings work out in practice.

[Mudfam]

7 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

The idea is probably to have the first wave on the way before you Frac-Crush, to make things a little more expedient, but I'm not sure how the ranges/timings work out in practice.

They don't work in practice, because Fracturing Crush's armour reduction effect isn't applied until after the 2.7s cast time has elapsed, making the initial 3 cast 80% less effective.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Mudfam

[(PSN)Chel-El]

So you wanna expose your frame with 4's long cast and then do 3? The beauty of 3,4,3 is the armor strip setup and the safe space it provides for 4.

Crushing bones should never be done before removing armor and shields. I know I'm newer here but there are some things I just can't take on face value. 

Like I said I have mained underrated and seemingly underperforming heroes in the past. A little research and dedication helps. 

Edited October 11, 2017 by (PS4)Chel-El

[Sanxxieh]

IMO all she needs is better damage scalling.

Her abilities are great but polarize and crush suffer from infinite lvl scalling so much and hence crush is useless at lvls 100+ and polarize at lvls 100+ is used only as shield restore for team and damage boost for magnetize. The pull cannot generate more energy orbs at levels over 50 because she will simply not kill enemies with it. Magnetize on the other paw is simply great and useful at every lvl, for offense, party support and self defense.

[Mudfam]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Chel-El said:

So you wanna expose your frame with 4's long cast and then do 3? The  switch of 3,4,3 is the setup and safe space it provides 

Crushing bones should never be done before removing armor and shields. I

 know I'm newer here but there are some things I just can't take on face value. Like I said I have mained underrated and seemingly underperforming heroes in the past 

thanks though 

The problem is that Polarise removes armour by a fixed amount, so the initial cast won't do very much at all due to how armour works in this game. I will give you an example with numbers.

Your mag has 200% power strength. You are trying to strip armour from a level 105 heavy unit which has exactly 8'000 armour, giving them 96.4% damage reduction.

3,4,3 combo example:

You cast polarise, removing 800 armour. The heavy gunner now has 7200 armour, their damage reduction has dropped from 96.4% to 96%. You have accomplished basically nothing.

You cast Crush with the augment, reducing their armour by 80% (capped) for the next 7 seconds. The heavy gunner now has 1440 armour. and 82% damage reduction. However, after 7 seconds this will expire.

In order to to make the effect of Fracturing crush permanent you must now strip all their armour down to 0, requiring 2 more casts of Polarise.

If we use the 4,3,3 combo instead:

You press 4 and remove 80% armour, leaving them with 1600. The enemy is now also knocked down, leaving to safely cast you 3 twice more for 800+800 removed armour, giving you that permanent 100% armour removal.

 

These are some pretty convoluted an unituitive mechanics, only understood by a very small portion of players. You should not take anything warframe tells you at face value because it's all very messy, undocumented and largely dysfunctional.

[(PSN)Chel-El]

I will take this under advisement once I gain that FC augment (new loka member now) 

But from where I'm standing 3,4,3 works great and the initial 3 keeps Mag safe 

This could be just my perception but I haven't died from 4's slow animation since that sequence 

[Mudfam]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Chel-El said:

I will take this under advisement once I gain that FC augment (new loka member now) 

But from where I'm standing 3,4,3 works great and the initial 3 keeps Mag safe 

This could be just my perception but I haven't died from 4's slow animation since that sequence 

Mag's 3 has no CC or disabling effects so it won't do anything to protect you. Fortunately mag's 4 CC kicks in immediately, so when casting it you only have to concerned about enemies outside of its range or currently immune to CC effects (this is fairly common).

The combo doesn't really serve any purpose beyond stripping armour with the augment at higher levels. Personally I don't use it because it's way too expensive and clunky. At low levels you might benefit from using 3 before 4 if you want to actually kill lightly armoured low level enemies with Crush, but that's really it.

 

[(PSN)Chel-El]

you're nitpicking 3 again as if it's on a vacuum (is that a pun)? 

but I do that with her 2 too so I understand. maybe one day I'll give it another shot. 

(i will attempt to bypass Mag's fault)

 

[(PSN)urkonse]

Zephyr is probably going to be next frame with big rework with prime release

[phoenix1992]

Ok, can we make couple of rules considering topics like this? It is starting to get majorly annoying.

Rule number 1 : Show examples and proof of the builds that you were running and where you were using them. 

On 9/30/2017 at 7:36 AM, (PS4)godlysparta said:

I have been playing Mag for a few days and it seems Mag is lackluster in every way. Her DPS is too situational, her armor stripping is useless, her Pull is only slightly useful and overall, she needs some work. I have some proposals for how to make Mag better.

 

Yeah no. 
Rule number 2 : If you are going to pull simulacrum or DPS builders, prepare to get your jimmies rustled. Actual dynamic gameplay has little to have with Simulacrum, stop using it as base.
Rule number 3 : Consider that some frames do flat damage with abilities. Others synergize with your equipment. In theory no one would play Nova "cause her damage is so weak", but in practice she is one of the most used frames.
Rule number 4 : Few days. Are you doing it on purpose? Even @MagPrime won't open up a fresh Mag copy and forma her enough times in order to test all builds in few days.

Edited October 11, 2017 by phoenix1992

[(PSN)Chel-El]

Are you saying all of this is subjective and covered in blood, I mean bias ?! 

[phoenix1992]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Chel-El said:

Are you saying all of this is subjective and covered in blood, I mean bias ?! 

If you are referring towards me, please tag me I don't keep an eye out on topics 24/7 :D

No, not all of it. There are questionable design choices considering Mag and other frames, make no mistake. But I am not biting into arguments until I see proof of them that go beyond "I feel that this is not ok".

[TheLexiConArtist]

16 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Rule number 1 : Show examples and proof of the builds that you were running and where you were using them.

Rule number 2 : If you are going to pull simulacrum or DPS builders, prepare to get your jimmies rustled. Actual dynamic gameplay has little to have with Simulacrum, stop using it as base.

Rule number 3 : Consider that some frames do flat damage with abilities. Others synergize with your equipment. In theory no one would play Nova "cause her damage is so weak", but in practice she is one of the most used frames.

1. A general idea of reduced-neutral-mid-high Warframe power stats is sufficient, the onus is on disproving a claim once given the relevant details (e.g. "fighting Corpus | low Strength | high Duration").
2. Simulacrum is a fine base. As long as you hold that as the theoretical optimum and stay cognizant of how effects are lessened in practice. Controlled environments are key for testing things.
3. Agreed, but also a special Mag mention here for how some equipment is unfairly hamstrung compared to others; continual weapons, critting and non-projectile multishot not applying correctly to Magnetise.

 

Overall, Mag is still Not Okay. Some of this is due to the abilities themselves (Pull's energy drop is a non-entity, buggy/inconsistent Magnetise interactions), some is due to statistics, changes and mechanics in the game around her (Diminishing Returns on duration not giving time to actually use Magnetise after the first couple casts on a boss-target), some a little of both (Armour scaling and how Mag reduces it).

[Mudfam]

44 minutes ago, (PS4)Chel-El said:

you're nitpicking 3 again as if it's on a vacuum (is that a pun)? 

but I do that with her 2 too so I understand. maybe one day I'll give it another shot. 

(i will attempt to bypass Mag's fault)

No, I wasn't criticsing the ability there, just explaining how that combo can be potentially be used. The combo (3,4,3 or 4,3,3 or whatever) is used for stripping armour with the Fracturing Crush augment. Mag's 3 has no defensive value so it won't help protect you when using your 4. Your "Crushing bones should never be done before removing armor and shields" has some value at lower levels though, where armour and hitpoints are sufficiently low that it can actually work.

[phoenix1992]

5 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

• A general idea of reduced-neutral-mid-high Warframe power stats is sufficient, the onus is on disproving a claim once given the relevant details (e.g. "fighting Corpus | low Strength | high Duration").
• Simulacrum is a fine base. As long as you hold that as the theoretical optimum and stay cognizant of how effects are lessened in practice. Controlled environments are key for testing things.
• Agreed, but also a special Mag mention here for how some equipment is unfairly hamstrung compared to others; continual weapons, critting and non-projectile multishot not applying correctly to Magnetise.

Good enough as a base, as long as everyone participating in this topic uphold to those rules.
Which can't happen anymore due to how the OP is stated, even more in Page 2 of the topic.
 

[MagPrime]

36 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Ok, can we make couple of rules considering topics like this? It is starting to get majorly annoying.

Rule number 1 : Show examples and proof of the builds that you were running and where you were using them. 

Yeah no. 
Rule number 2 : If you are going to pull simulacrum or DPS builders, prepare to get your jimmies rustled. Actual dynamic gameplay has little to have with Simulacrum, stop using it as base.
Rule number 3 : Consider that some frames do flat damage with abilities. Others synergize with your equipment. In theory no one would play Nova "cause her damage is so weak", but in practice she is one of the most used frames.
Rule number 4 : Few days. Are you doing it on purpose? Even @MagPrime won't open up a fresh Mag copy and forma her enough times in order to test all builds in few days.

I agree with these rules.

And you're right, I won't forma a fresh Mag like that.  It simply isn't enough time to familiarize yourself with all the builds quirks and how it works with a variety of weapons/teammates.