About conclave unbalance what should we do about it? (need feedback)

[korndolorous]

Well many time I have a problem form those cheese build, melee spammer, and weapon unbalance.
here my problem

Here how I think DE should change.

Problem : Melee spammer 
How to fix it (in my opinion) 

1 )change chroma's element ward ability ( to counter melee : most of the time this ability can counter only 1 or 2 enemy, while 2-4 player in the match spamming melee)

• reduce energy cost to 25. 
• no melee damage receive. or use this as his passive

2 ) bring stamina back to conclave

Problem : ability spammer
How to fix it (in my opinion) 

1 ) change banshee silence ability  ( to counter melee  : this ability will disable other ability in area)

•  reduce energy cost to 25.

2 ) add ability cooldown.

Problem : knockdown spammer
How to fix it (in my opinion) 

1) remove knockdown from every weapon ( ability still fine because it require energy)

• replace it with push back (like old tonkor)

2) change mod "Armored recovery" effect to 

• +50%( or more) damage resistance while knockdown and after knockdown to 3 sec.

3) change atlas passive to ( to reduce the general effectiveness of knockdowns)

• resistance knockdown anywhere (include airborne)

And Broken weapon, Ability list

Valkyr's talon 

• reduce damge (no 1 hit slide kill)
• NEED to remove martial magnetism
• increase energy drain

Frost's avalanche

• freeze only no damage (freeze for 2 sec)
• do half damage and heavily slow enemy down (-80&)
• reduce range
• give line of sight

Sonicor + glaive 

• make sonicor can't using dual wielding
• or change sonicor effect to push back target (like old tonkor)

Arca titron

• nerf range
• or nerf damage

Javlok 

• reduce quick throw damage 
• reduce flight speed or hit box on primary fire

Nikana prime (or Nikana series)

• change stance?

Edited October 7, 2017 by korndolorous

[Eldnacpeek]

3 hours ago, korndolorous said:

Problem : Melee spammer 
How to fix it (in my opinion) 

1 )change chroma's element ward ability

• reduce energy cost to 25.
• no melee damage receive. or use this as his passive

I'm confused. Both these things are two completely different topics. Are you saying melee needs to be nerfed, or Chroma? Does every "melee spammer" you encounter happen to be Chroma?

3 hours ago, korndolorous said:

Nikana prime (or Nikana series)

• change stance?

I'm not entirely sure about who you've encountered, but the entire Nikana series, and Fateful Truth are balanced just fine. They're not the best in conclave, but they're not the worst.

3 hours ago, korndolorous said:

3) change atlas passive to

• resistance knockdown anywhere (include airborne)

Your title states unbalance, yet here you ask for an unneeded buff. What exactly is your goal here?

3 hours ago, korndolorous said:

Problem : ability spammer
How to fix it (in my opinion) 

1 ) change banshee silence ability

•  reduce energy cost to 25.

2 ) add ability cooldown.

In order to combat "ability spammers", you want to reduce the cost of abilities? More like, one specific ability?

Edited October 7, 2017 by LazerSkink

[.Mun]

• Quote

  1 )change chroma's element ward ability

  reduce energy cost to 25. no melee damage receive. or use this as his passive

  The problem with the "melee spam fix" is that you have to use a specific warframe to get around melee spam.

• Quote

  2) change mod "Armored recovery" effect to 

  +50%( or more) damage resistance while knockdown and after knockdown to 3 sec.

  With armored recovery, you'll have people letting themselves get knocked down just for the damage resistance for easy kills. I think it should last 1-1.5 seconds after the knockdown recovery animation. 

• Quote

  Nikana prime (or Nikana series)

  change stance?

  Nikanas are a strange bunch, but I feel they need a slight nerf in most aspects, but I'm no expert.

• Quote

  3) change atlas passive to

  resistance knockdown anywhere (include airborne)

  I think Atlas is fine as is, concerning knockdown resistance.

Other than that, these are all solid ideas.

6 minutes ago, LazerSkink said:

In order to combat "ability spammers", you want to give them more efficiency?

He's suggesting giving more efficiency to the one ability that prevents all other abilities.
 

Edited October 7, 2017 by MoonCzer
Added quotes

[korndolorous]

2 minutes ago, LazerSkink said:

I'm confused. Both these things are two completely different topics. Are you saying melee needs to be nerfed, or Chroma? Does every "melee spammer" you encounter happen to be Chroma?

 

3 minutes ago, LazerSkink said:

Your title states unbalance, yet here you ask for an unneeded buff. What exactly is your goal here?

 

3 minutes ago, LazerSkink said:

In order to combat "ability spammers", you want to give them more efficiency?

Those are how to counter those problem

 

4 minutes ago, LazerSkink said:

I'm not entirely sure about who you've encountered, but the entire Nikana series, and Fateful Truth are balanced just fine. They're not the best in conclave, but they're not the worst.

well nikana stance has very high mobility and damage. I'm not sure that if DE nerf nikana prime will it solved the problem or they just change to use other nikana

[krc473]

24 minutes ago, korndolorous said:

Well many time I have a problem form those cheese build, melee spammer, and weapon unbalance.
here my problem

Personally, I have never encountered any of the issues you are describing. Are these common on conclave? Admittedly, I do not do much conclave.

But my my experience, everything seems to be balanced reasonably well. Yes, there are one hit abilities, but frost can stick himself inside a bubble and shoot out of it. You do not mention this at all, I would say it is more of an issue than valkyr’s talons fo Rome personally. 

For the most part, I find that me just not being very good at conclave is the biggest issue. So, maybe play with people more your skill level.

Edit: Can Limbo no longer permanently go invincible in conclave?

Edited October 7, 2017 by krc473

[Eldnacpeek]

3 hours ago, MoonCzer said:

He's suggesting giving more efficiency to the one ability that prevents all other abilities.

Thanks, it took me a bit to actually understand that point. Even so, I don't feel changing one Warframe's ability to combat the others is going to fix "ability spamming". Energy is relatively rare as is in the gamemode, so I don't really find ability spamming to be an actual issue.

3 hours ago, korndolorous said:

Those are how to counter those problem

Not really, you're just proposing specific warframes be changed to combat these so called unbalances. There's no actual suggestion to change how "spammers" spam, rather how to counter it as you said just now. In your initial post, you word them as problems and solutions, yet here you're saying you just want more effective ways to reduce said problems.

Edited October 7, 2017 by LazerSkink

[.Mun]

2 minutes ago, LazerSkink said:

Even so, I don't feel changing one Warframe's ability to combat the others is going to fix "ability spamming". Energy is relatively rare as is in the gamemode, so I don't really find ability spamming to be an actual issue.

He's also suggesting all abilities get a cooldown. Also, there are people who actively look for and hoard as much energy as possible, for the sake of ability spamming.

Edited October 7, 2017 by MoonCzer

[Eldnacpeek]

3 hours ago, MoonCzer said:

He's also suggesting all abilities get a cooldown.

 

Could have been clearer on that. First point spoke of Banshee's Silence, second point of ability cooldown. I can't tell if they're still talking about Silence by 2, or abilities in general.

[SevenLetterKWord]

17 minutes ago, korndolorous said:

1 ) change banshee silence ability
reduce energy cost to 25.

Silence's high energy cost does make it a rather unwieldy power.

Lowering the cost (and the range/duration accordingly) would make it more interactive; users would be able to more frequently respond to ability casts from nearby enemies instead of preemptively shutting down all abilities in a large area.

There are also other ways to introduce counter-abilities.
A buff to Vauban's Concuss mine, perhaps, which is presently far too expensive and far too weak to be worthwhile.
Changes could also be made to Ivara's Quiver or Hydroid's Undertow.

17 minutes ago, korndolorous said:

1) remove knockdown from every weapon ( ability still fine because it require energy)

That's silly. Some utility weapons, like the Talons, are defined by their ability to inflict knockdown.

17 minutes ago, korndolorous said:

Frost's avalanche
reduce range 
or gi

Did you mean to say "give LoS requirement"?

---

1 minute ago, LazerSkink said:

I'm confused. Both these things are two completely different topics. Are you saying melee needs to be nerfed, or Chroma? Does every "melee spammer" you encounter happen to be Chroma?

He wants to make Elemental Ward more flexible, so that it can more readily be used to counter melee.

1 minute ago, LazerSkink said:

Your title states unbalance, yet here you ask for an unneeded buff. What exactly is your goal here?

Obviously his goal is to reduce the general effectiveness of knockdowns by increasing one frame's immunity to them.

1 minute ago, LazerSkink said:

In order to combat "ability spammers", you want to give them more efficiency?

Silence cancels other abilities.
While I don't agree with his suggestions, it's pretty clear what korndolorous is trying to accomplish here.

[Eldnacpeek]

3 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

While I don't agree with his suggestions, it's pretty clear what korndolorous is trying to accomplish here.

 

I found it unclear, so I suppose it's just the way I interpreted then. The wording OP used (as in "problems" and "how to fix") made me think they were trying to come up with solutions directed to the spamming, and I kept that in mind while reading what are actually proposals for counterattacks. My mistake @korndolorous.

Edited October 7, 2017 by LazerSkink
rewording

[korndolorous]

2 minutes ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Did you mean to say "give LoS requirement"?

 yeah i'm editing it the suddely press submit edit by mistake

 

4 minutes ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

That's silly. Some utility weapons, like the Talons, are defined by their ability to inflict knockdown.

well that's why I need feedback, and how not to make it spammable? do you have any suggestion?

[korndolorous]

5 minutes ago, LazerSkink said:

 

I found it unclear, so I suppose it's just the way I interpreted then. The wording OP used (as in "problems" and "how to fix") made me think they were trying to come up with solutions directed to the spamming, and I kept that in mind while reading what are actually proposals for counterattacks. My mistake @korndolorous.

Alright I will edit the post to make it clear for everyone :D

[korndolorous]

23 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Can Limbo no longer permanently go invincible in conclave?

well what if it has energy drain, will it be better?

Edited October 7, 2017 by korndolorous

[krc473]

1 minute ago, korndolorous said:

well what if it has energy drain, will it be better?

No.

I am just working with the things you claim are unbalanced. Limbo was not mentioned, Frost and his globe was not mentioned. Many things on their own are unbalanced. That is why we have other stuff that has powerful. I mean, DE could nerf everything to the ground, make it completely balanced. That is an incredible amount of effort, and no one would play. Conclave will never be completely balanced. 

[.Zel]

28 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Edit: Can Limbo no longer permanently go invincible in conclave?

it's his passive after all, he just leaves a portal behind when he does enter rift.

 

2 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Conclave will never be completely balanced. 

I feel that it can but doing so will require certain changes which i doubt DE will ever implement. 

[korndolorous]

1 minute ago, krc473 said:

Frost and his globe was not mentioned

well that's fine for me just shoot and break his globe he will sitting inside make it easy to kill

 

3 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Limbo was not mentioned

because some of us think he is glass canon easy to kill anyone also easy to get killed. not standout as other frame.

[krc473]

Just now, .Zel said:

it's his passive after all, he just leaves a portal behind when he does enter rift.

My statement was more aimed at the OP, in terms of “this is more unbalanced than everything else, why is it not mentioned?”

 

Personally, I preferred old, everyone is OP conclave...

[SevenLetterKWord]

1 minute ago, korndolorous said:

well that's why I need feedback, and how not to make it spammable? do you have any suggestion?

Players are inherently resistant to knockdown (and impair) spam due to global passive of 4 seconds of Anticipation.
The actual Anticipation mod extends this immunity to 8s.

Of course, Anticipation's effect only protects players from knockdown-lock (or impair-lock), not from spaced out events.

Ideally, there would be some interactive means for players to respond to knockdowns.
Barring that, perhaps Anticipation could be changed to: "Doubled knockdown recovery rate, significantly reduced accuracy for 4s after receiving knockdown."
Or: "100% Knockdown Resistance (à la Sure Footed) at the cost of 30 energy per prevention."

Let's keep in mind that it's silly to reward players for being knocked down (Nova's Explosive Counter).
A knockdown is a tactical investment on the part of your opponents; a player should never be incentivized to receive knockdowns.
Thus, it would be inappropriate to buff mods like Armored Recovery to last beyond the knockdown recovery animation.

2 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Limbo was not mentioned, Frost and his globe was not mentioned.

The Rift mechanic, while not necessarily "powerful", is incredibly awkward in Conclave and should be redesigned.

Snow Globe is not that powerful. It's a large, stationary target that you can take down from a distance or from behind cover.
Alternatively, if the Frost is low on health, you might consider invading the bubble to finish him off.