Universal hatred of all things Conclave

[ThaT_WHiTE_KiiD]

1 hour ago, Jakorak said:

As a player of middling skill that spent the time to max out conclave's syndicate and grab almost everything Teshin has to offer,

As well as a player that has witnessed many PVE games try to grab a slice of that sweet E-sports PVP pie,

Conclave has made monumental changes and improvements to itself over its lifetime, but I find it really hard to shake the notion that PVP being stapled onto a PVE - centric game is a fundamentally flawed pursuit.

You're not wrong, unfortunately. I've never seen PvP implemented really well into PvE games.

[o.0-]

One thing that quickly comes to mind about what I dislike about Conclave, is with the nature of Warframe movement, how elements are balanced and how matches end up playing out. And honestly I really haven't played any Lunaro.

We are able to bullet jump and roll around with ease and a player casually trying it out has to relearn how powers and weapons are setup with really limited energy and ammo. Another element is how Tenno Shields have their set of strengths and weaknesses along with Flesh and using Ferrite Armor.

So the fact that PvP ends up feeling like Warframe pinball, and having to figure out how things are balanced in the game mode is what turned me off to running it more and from asking others to try it out with me.

As for plausible solutions, adding and modifying game modes and what we can use in the PvP environment is where my thoughts go first (since I doubt players who regularly play the existing PvP would accept any movement restrictions so I feel its then best to look towards alternatives):

One idea that has crossed my mind, is if we can have Crossfire/Invasion type modes of Grineer vs Corpus, where we are using Grineer and Corpus units against each other (and with there limited level of movement), it could provide a different type of experience, especially for players not accustomed to the degree of movement available to a Warframe.

Another is a 1 vs the rest type setups. Such as allowing one player to be the Stalker against other Warframes, or a Single Warframe against Grineer/Corpus, and even consider Fissure/Orokin Tower style invasions.

So with HP types, I'd strongly consider having Warframes be neutral to strengths and weaknesses, allowing other factions to have these distinctions. Lore-wise, Warframes were uniquely distinct combatants and so it could be possible that their assembled alloys were setup in ways that were not seen in other forces and the materials those forces used.

So Corpus would be about plastics and various polymers like Kevlar, Grineer stick to their trusty carbon steel and Tenno/Orokin would make use of more exotic alloys with their own sets of attributes compared to the other factions.

Outside of considering these ideas, I dunno what could be done to make PvP more welcoming for more players to give it another go?

[Heckzu]

51 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

If I want PVP, I play battlefront, CSGO, or CoD.

PvP is not a genre, it's a schema. Saying things along the line of, "if you want PvP, go play this FPS/MOBA game" makes no sense. What if I don't like FPS games or MOBA games?

What if I want to play a fast paced slash-and-shoot TPS game? Let me try to list my available options:

• GunZ The Duel (officially shut down in 2013)
• GunZ The Duel 2 (game flopped due to too many issues at launch, just like No Man's Sky)
• S4 League (released in 2007, this game is over a decade old now with outdated graphics)

If you know of any others, then please by all means tell me, because there isn't much of a selection to chose from.

[ThaT_WHiTE_KiiD]

1 hour ago, tarfeef101 said:

For me it is very simple: warframe is a PVE game for me. If I want PVP, I play battlefront, CSGO, or CoD. That's not why I play warframe. It's not the kind of PVP experience I enjoy.

Meh those games can't really compare to Warframe's PvP. It's an entirely different experience. That's the point, it's so different from other PvP games, with a much larger skill gap. If there were other PvP focused games that had Warframe's advanced movement I'd pick them up in a heartbeat.

[ThaT_WHiTE_KiiD]

1 minute ago, Heckzu said:

PvP is not a genre, it's a schema. Saying things along the line of, "if you want PvP, go play this FPS/MOBA game" makes no sense. What if I don't like FPS games or MOBA games?

What if I want to play a fast paced slash-and-shoot TPS game? Let me try to list my available options:

• GunZ The Duel (officially shut down in 2013)
• GunZ The Duel 2 (game flopped due to too many issues at launch, just like No Man's Sky)
• S4 League (released in 2007, this game is over a decade old now with outdated graphics)

If you know of any others, then please by all means tell me, because there isn't much of a selection to chose from.

This.

[.Zel]

1 hour ago, ThaT_WHiTE_KiiD said:

abandoned and left to die.

it won't die, it's the same story with Quake/UT/LawBreakers or any other fast paced game. These game have a steep learning curve and majority prefer games with boots on the ground i.e CS:GO/Arma/Battlefield. Fast paced games like these are left to be dominated by the ones who put in the effort to get better at it, so there's a big gap.

As for why don't most people even try, rewards aren't good enough so they don't need to as they can play any PvE mission and get a lot more out of them. For those who do play, don't really play much for rewards but simply because it's fun to them.

1 hour ago, Axton said:

Classes in Conclave.

They are kind of class via ehp, light/mid/tanks.

 

1 hour ago, Axton said:

Conclave exclusive mods ruin it for me. There isn't any balance either. You can go in as a new player without any mods and be demolished by someone who nolifes conclave. (*I don't see anyone doing that, but who knows*)

mods are nice to have but they're not so good that someone with no mods stand 0 chance. Seen many pro's from other fast paced games come in with just Excal/Mk1Braton/Lato and dominate lobbies without having a single mod on anything. Experience plays a big role in how well a person performs in any PvP game. It's balanced just fine aside from energy regen and 4's

1 hour ago, Axton said:

need to do PvP to get Teshin's offerings.

And you need to do mission via other Syndicates for their stuff, I didn't get my Telos Syandana from doing just any mission i like, i had to do Hexis missions or missions by their ally for Syndicate standing. Playing PvP for getting rewards offered by a PvP Syndicate is perfectly reasonable.

1 hour ago, FierceRadiance said:

Conclave players are very vocal, and very protective of their corner of Warframe

Simply correcting the false accusations regarding "hacks/aimbots" or "highly imbalanced weapons". Players who do well in conclave are able to do well because they play a lot, it's not that hard, it takes a year to just learn the basics of a game like Dota2 but people still do it, they put in the time and effort and as such they are rewarded later on. Same thing with Conclave players, put in the time and effort and anyone will do well.

 

11 minutes ago, ThaT_WHiTE_KiiD said:

Yeah cheaters are a problem even in PvP games with such small playerbases like Warframe's PvP.

It's significantly less in Conclave because of the small player base, a conclave regular knows others who play on a first name basis and we usually have a recorder running. So if there is a cheater then the footage can be reviewed and sent to DE if it is obvious that the player is cheating. Takes barely a day or two for DE to ban actual aimbots.

Edited October 11, 2017 by .Zel

[ThaT_WHiTE_KiiD]

59 minutes ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

because the people who play conclave and the rest of warframe's playerbase can likely never come to a consensus on how to "fix"it. people who PLAY conclave think it's perfect, and any time a non-pvper comes by with a suggestion, it's often shot down with a vengeance.

Popular complaints are:

Conclave is based too much on high-speed frantic combat: countered with "this is what makes conclave unique, don't kill our gamemode"

cheese tactics: countered with "git gud"

the time it takes to take a warframe from full health to none is too low: also countered with "git gud"

in short: the PvP playerbase (who, admittedly, probably deserves more say in conclave matters than us) doesn't take kindly to the mere mention of improving the system, to the point that they'll even fight tooth and nail to keep the greatest conclave reward(the syandana) an endless grind just to upkeep, much less obtain (let's face it, the grind to get it should be enough grind to get it as it is displayed in the preview window; and doing so would likely raise the popularity of conclave, which you'd think should be good, but...)

The largest plague going against conclave improvement is population. If matches were sorted so you were playing against people who had a similar skill level as you, it would be much better. However, the moment you leave the recruit conditioning mode (which you sometimes have to do anyways to find matches, even when below rank 2 with teshin) you are placed in matches mostly containing typhoons, and experienced ones at that--because that's the vast majority of the conclave population. Even then, there's rarely more than a few different public matches going on at any one time(on my servers/during my playtime anyways), so there wouldn't be a large enough pool of players to even make use of intelligent matchmaking. Worst part is, conclave has remained mostly dead for so long that I doubt there's anything DE can do to fix it.

 

On a positive note, I will say that the Tactical Alert Gamemodes that DE makes (especially the hearts & arrows event) were alot more fun to me. First of all, you've got more people of more skill levels competing, for snappy matchmaking times and a better experience for scrubs like me who can't play conclave as well as the usual people I'm up against. You've also got a set loadout: you can take whatever warframe you want into the match, but you won't have abilities and will always have the same amount of health, so your chosen warframe is just a cosmetic, and you're handed your weapons at the start of the match. Since everyone has the same weapons, and everyone has the same stats, everyone's on an even playing field. It's more about who actually has more skill and less about who has a cheesy tactic you're poor at countering.

Unfortunately, PvP tactical alerts get a lot of flak from the playerbase, so I'm not sure DE will continue releasing them except once in a blue moon.

Honestly this is the perfect answer to the question. You summed everything up really well and I agree with you on most everything you put. Well said man.

[MisterUltimate]

6 minutes ago, ThaT_WHiTE_KiiD said:

Truth is the mode is very flawed and not in a very good state at the moment, even the players that enjoy it (like myself) recognize that.

 

That might be the bigger issue in terms of popularity. There are some flaws that are just deal breakers for some players. Perhaps instead of more positive talk, PvP really needs more constructive criticism from players that do enjoy it. Citing what the issues are and stating ideas on how to fix it seems a bit more productive. Granted, even though PvP exists Warframe is still a PvE-centric game, and thus huge endeavors like PoE will tend to hog resources, so patience is key. However, the changes to Conclave we got were the result of listening to the segment of the fanbase that really wanted it. 

So, I'm curious now. I actually enjoyed PvP when I tried it, even though I rarely play it. I played a few regular matches and did OK. I played some of the events and got my decorations from it. I went ahead and advances my rank once, maybe twice. I thought it was fine but can't say I did more than scratch the surface. Because of my lack of exposure, I honestly can't critique it in any meaningful way. As someone who's played it, enjoyed it, but can still see flaws, what issues do you see and how would you like to see them addressed?

[.Zel]

1 hour ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

in short: the PvP playerbase (who, admittedly, probably deserves more say in conclave matters than us) doesn't take kindly to the mere mention of improving the system

Good ideas are always accepted, problem is that those who don't understand how conclave works end up presenting ideas which would make it more like PvE rather than keep it PvP.

Take this example, would you listen to the suggestions of someone who is only experienced in playing a game like CS:GO on how to improve a game like League of Legends?

The fact is PvE and PvP in Warframe work in such a different way that they can be considered as 2 different games but people often assume experience in PvE = have to be very good at PvP, cause you're using the same stuff you got from PvE.

Edited October 11, 2017 by .Zel

[HyokaChan]

9 minutes ago, .Zel said:

And you need to do mission via other Syndicates for their stuff, I didn't get my Telos Syandana from doing just any mission i like, i had to do Hexis missions or missions by their ally for Syndicate standing. Playing PvP for getting rewards offered by a PvP Syndicate is perfectly reasonable.

Lol, I did!

 

Since you have a daily cap that's easily reached, maxing it out every day is really easy.

[ThaT_WHiTE_KiiD]

4 minutes ago, .Zel said:

it won't die, it's the same story with Quake/UT/LawBreakers or any other fast paced game. These game have a steep learning curve and majority prefer games with boots on the ground i.e CS:GO/Arma/Battlefield. Fast paced games like these are left to be dominated by the ones who put in the effort to get better at it, so there's a big gap.

As for why don't most people even try, rewards aren't good enough so they don't need to as they can play any PvE mission and get a lot more out of them. For those who do play, don't really play much for rewards but simply because it's fun to them.

They are kind of class via ehp, light/mid/tanks.

 

mods are nice to have but they're not so good that someone with no mods stand 0 chance. Seen many pro's from other fast paced games come in with just Excal/Mk1Braton/Lato and dominate lobbies without having a single mod on anything. Experience plays a big role in how well a person performs in any PvP game. It's balanced just fine aside from energy regen and 4's

And you need to do mission via other Syndicates for their stuff, I didn't get my Telos Syandana from doing just any mission i like, i had to do Hexis missions or missions by their ally for Syndicate standing. Playing PvP for getting rewards offered by a PvP Syndicate is perfectly reasonable.

Simply correcting the false accusations regarding "hacks/aimbots" or "highly imbalanced weapons". Players who do well in conclave are able to do well because they play a lot, it's not that hard, it takes a year to just learn the basics of a game like Dota2 but people still do it, they put in the time and effort and as such they are rewarded later on. Same thing with Conclave players, put in the time and effort and anyone will do well.

 

It's significantly less in Conclave because of the small player base, a conclave regular knows others who play on a first name basis and we usually have a recorder running. So if there is a cheater then the footage can be reviewed and sent to DE if it is obvious that the player is cheating. Takes barely a day or two for DE to ban actual aimbots.

I wouldn't say significantly less, I've played PvP in this game for a little over a year and have definitely seen cheaters in both recruit conditioning and out of it. No I don't just mean players that are good, anyone who plays a lot of games can distinguish the difference, people just call others cheats out of frustration and inflated ego. But they do seem to go pretty quick. And I doubt every dedicated PvPer in this game knows each other by name man. Not everybody who enjoys the game enjoys the cancerous community (PvP and PvE both).

[.Zel]

1 minute ago, HyokaChan said:

Since you have a daily cap that's easily reached, maxing it out every day is really easy.

well being mr20+ my cap is big and i don't get to play a lot each day, so i had to do the missions. 

But my point is, i'm not opposed to them getting PvP stuff by doing PvE, if you want it then sure. Just that if it does end up that way, it should only be fair for me to get PvE stuff by playing PvP.

[ThaT_WHiTE_KiiD]

1 hour ago, FierceRadiance said:

WF is a....okay, it used to be a co-op game--but it was never intended to have a PvP element. In early Devstreams DE actually said as much. As years passed they changed their mind, and bolted Conclave on. But it's audience is extremely limited - less than 2% of players play it according to DE's most recent numbers.

I've also spoken to a handful of Tenno who have tried it, and they all report getting wrecked by other Tenno who either have vastly better skills, or were using hax. Either way, getting your a$$ shot off -repeatedly- doesn't sound like fun.

Conclave players are very vocal, and very protective of their corner of Warframe, but there just aren't very many other Tenno that want to share their little world with them.

Near everyone gets destroyed at the start of the game. You have to put the time in to get better, and that goes with anything. Do you expect to just pick up a guitar and play better than Jimi Hendrix the next day?

[.Zel]

3 minutes ago, ThaT_WHiTE_KiiD said:

Not everybody who enjoys the game enjoys the cancerous community

basically on discord or in game or in steam, anyone who plays daily usually have some pvp players added. simply because it's easier to join a match from your friendslist rather than changing region and trying every mode available............and why are you posting multiple times instead of including it all in one post. Also, hidden function makes the wall smaller.

[ThaT_WHiTE_KiiD]

1 hour ago, Axton said:

Well Conclave already isn't liked, I was only suggesting a game mode for Conclave.

If anything, Conclave is fine where it is, nobody really pays much attention to it, it's not really in the way either.

EDIT: Adding preset loadouts might attract a new audience and bring life back to Conclave... for a short time. Or not, you never know.

I can get on board with a new game mode with specific classes. As long as the movement is the same I'd definitely try it out.

[Heckzu]

58 minutes ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

people who PLAY conclave think it's perfect, and any time a non-pvper comes by with a suggestion, it's often shot down with a vengeance.

That's not true, many conclave regulars have issues with Conclave which are addressed in other feedback posts:

• lack of a server browser
• energy abundance
• "Press 4 to win" abilities
• Offhand melee slam knockdown
• etc.

A lot of ideas from non-PvPers get shot down because the ideas themselves are pretty bad. 

1 hour ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

Conclave is based too much on high-speed frantic combat: countered with "this is what makes conclave unique, don't kill our gamemode"

Parkour 2.0 is the core of Conclave. Asking for it to be removed is like asking Riot Games to turn League of Legends into a battle royale.

1 hour ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

cheese tactics: countered with "git gud"

There have been many feedback posts from regulars trying to eliminate cheese tactics, some of which have been implemented:

• Daikyu damage nerf
• Opticor impair removal
• Stagger changed to impair
• Innate temporary knockdown and stagger immunity after being afflicted
• Channeled 4th abilities requiring max energy to cast

1 hour ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

the time it takes to take a warframe from full health to none is too low: also countered with "git gud"

Conclave actually has a relatively high TTK.

The Braton deals 32 dmg per round at 8.75 rounds/sec. Excluding damage type modifiers,that's 278.4 DPS.

Excalibur has 145 shields, 110 health, and 110 armor. That's 295 EHP.

Without damage type modifiers, the time it takes to kill an Excalibur with a Braton would be ~1 sec without missing a shot. With the damage multipliers, it might be around ~.7 or ~.8sec. Compared to other shooters, this is long.

[ThaT_WHiTE_KiiD]

1 minute ago, .Zel said:

basically on discord or in game or in steam, anyone who plays daily usually have some pvp players added. simply because it's easier to join a match from your friendslist rather than changing region and trying every mode available............and why are you posting multiple times instead of including it all in one post. Also, hidden function makes the wall smaller.

We're here to discuss Conclave not how people post replies. But yeah, I can agree with that, I don't much care for the discord community but I have players added on Steam and in game, never had that much trouble finding a match though to the point where I'd have to try every mode and region. I just keep my rank at Whirlwind (don't really care about the skins and sydana) and switch in and out of RC to find a match. I never liked the idea of ranking up because then I can't play with anyone in the community I want to. I have friends that will only play in RC, friends that will only play out of it, and friends that are down for either.

[.Zel]

6 minutes ago, ThaT_WHiTE_KiiD said:

We're here to discuss Conclave not how people post replies.

It makes the thread unnecessarily long when you use 1 post to reply to a single person instead of using multi quotes, even more when you re-quote a big wall of text just to add a single line of reply to it. It makes it easier for others who might start reading now to go through the discussion if you use the proper formatting.

8 minutes ago, ThaT_WHiTE_KiiD said:

I never liked the idea of ranking up because then I can't play with anyone in the community I want to.

If you're skill is beyond RC then you should rank up, anyone with more than 1k kill is not suitable for RC. RC is for the new players who are just getting into conclave, a mode which assumes that a player won't even have more than 4-5 weapons in total at their arsenal. This is the "ruining new players experience" people talk about and i feel like you might be one of them. There are those who farm RC matches just to be able to buy relics packs from Teshin, you might not be one of them but others might report you thinking otherwise when they see the high kill count but still in RC.

You can play with anyone regardless of rank in Inv only mode. You made a thread stating why people are against conclave and here is where you realize you might be a small part of it.

[ThaT_WHiTE_KiiD]

7 minutes ago, .Zel said:

It makes the thread unnecessarily long when you use 1 post to reply to a single person instead of using multi quotes, even more when you re-quote a big wall of text just to add a single line of reply to it. It makes it easier for others who might start reading now to go through the discussion if you use the proper formatting.

If you're skill is beyond RC then you should rank up, anyone with more than 1k kill is not suitable for RC. RC is for the new players who are just getting into conclave, a mode which assumes that a player won't even have more than 4-5 weapons in total at their arsenal. This is the "ruining new players experience" people talk about and i feel like you might be one of them. There are those who farm RC matches just to be able to buy relics packs from Teshin, you might not be one of them but others might report you thinking otherwise when they see the high kill count but still in RC.

You can play with anyone regardless of rank in Inv only mode. You made a thread stating why people are against conclave and here is where you realize you might be a small part of it.

We're here to discuss Conclave not how people post replies.

Dude, you don't have to tryhard and put forth all your effort in every match. I don't farm new players, when I'm playing with friends in RC we're just messing around playing for fun or trying to get cool clips for videos. not pub stomping new players. If I see players running around as a default excal I ignore them, unless I'm trying to make a YT video or something, because I'll try to get cool clips in that case (I don't make videos to showcase my skill in this game, I just think it's a cool game and like making little edits or montages of it). But you'd be surprised how many high skilled vets actually play in RC, the only time I tryhard in RC is when I run into them pub stomping and farming new players or players just trying to do challenges to get the PvP rewards. Sometimes I get destroyed even in RC by guys like that.

Never really thought of inv only mode but I do play in clan only mode sometimes if a good portion of us our online. But my clan is kind of dead, truthfully. Even still I feel ranking up really limits you in the community.

[tarfeef101]

1 hour ago, Heckzu said:

PvP is not a genre, it's a schema. Saying things along the line of, "if you want PvP, go play this FPS/MOBA game" makes no sense. What if I don't like FPS games or MOBA games?

What if I want to play a fast paced slash-and-shoot TPS game? Let me try to list my available options:

• GunZ The Duel (officially shut down in 2013)
• GunZ The Duel 2 (game flopped due to too many issues at launch, just like No Man's Sky)
• S4 League (released in 2007, this game is over a decade old now with outdated graphics)

If you know of any others, then please by all means tell me, because there isn't much of a selection to chose from.

Did I tell anyone not to play WF? OP just asked why ppl don't play conclave. I said why I don't. 

[tarfeef101]

1 hour ago, ThaT_WHiTE_KiiD said:

Meh those games can't really compare to Warframe's PvP. It's an entirely different experience. That's the point, it's so different from other PvP games, with a much larger skill gap. If there were other PvP focused games that had Warframe's advanced movement I'd pick them up in a heartbeat.

Well, I never said you couldn't have a reason to play conclave. I just gave my reasons why I don't. 

[FierceRadiance]

2 hours ago, .Zel said:

Simply correcting the false accusations regarding "hacks/aimbots" or "highly imbalanced weapons". Players who do well in conclave are able to do well because they play a lot, it's not that hard, it takes a year to just learn the basics of a game like Dota2 but people still do it, they put in the time and effort and as such they are rewarded later on. Same thing with Conclave players, put in the time and effort and anyone will do well.

For what you say to be accurate, you would have to know all the WF Conclave players personally. And while they're a tiny group...I don't think you know them all. (If you do, that just demonstrates what a minute subset of WF players are actually playing this mode.)

Regarding your suggestion to "put in the time and effort", I can't speak for everyone, but as for me, being told to, in effect, "get gud" rarely motivates me to play a game. Perhaps, if the game is particularly good or intriguing, I'll work at it. But as it stands right now, Conclave is neither.

I don't hate Conclave players...but I'm absolutely not interested in trying it (again).

[JustAnotherNormalPerson]

As a person that enjoyed both pve and pvp, I have come to believe that the main reason pve players dislike/hate pvp is because it is a change of pace from the slow grindy farming of pve to a fast pace reaction based shooter. 

There is also that face that many older players down talk conclave making newer players feel less inclined to try conclave. 

[FierceRadiance]

2 hours ago, ThaT_WHiTE_KiiD said:

Near everyone gets destroyed at the start of the game. You have to put the time in to get better, and that goes with anything. Do you expect to just pick up a guitar and play better than Jimi Hendrix the next day?

Am I playing against the Jimi Hendrixes (or Joe Satrianis, or Steve Vais, or Yngwie Malmsteens) of Conclave from the very beginning? Sure seemed like it. Or else they were aim-botting, something others claim isn't happening. Either way, fun=0.

Your post makes a fair point. But the skill differential is so steep that every one of the small group of players I know who have tried it (including yours truly) came to the same conclusion: this is not fun. If the matchmaking is so borked that we're being thrown in with players that far above us from the start, I'm not interested in fighting the matchmaking in addition to other highly-skilled players. And apparently, I'm not alone.

Again, I don't hate Conclave or it's players. If you enjoy it, that's fabulous, and I'm honestly happy for you. But I'm not even slightly interested in trying it again.

[nerfinator6]

Because, for SOME reason, the game thinks I'm good enough in conclave to go up against pros with hundreds of hours dedicated to conclave, and as a result, I get destroyed, over, and over, and over, and over.