Melee changes and hopefully secondary melee?

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

A complaint: Is melee still being treated like a second rate game mechanic? I think so.

Ill be listing off things i think are wrong such as:

We are required to switch over to melee only to use stances when the stances themselves should be completely useable all the time. And i say that because quick melee is a mechanic whose sole purpose is to make you choose between less damage from melee or weapon damage and melee, and since the recent buffs and mods to the melee system, some might argue that quick melee is a a more necessary evil than ever before, to prevent us from being op and not having to use weapons, but i believe its quite the opposite. Since you can still perform slide attacks, ground slams, and wall attacks (which i think are just in air attacks...wall attacks need help) while quick meleeing, and since melee combos already rely on just tapping one button at different times, the only thing missing are the stances you cant use unless you go full melee. And if you arent just goofing around, or in a melee only sortie, when would you ever go full melee? Because on the other side you have melee blocking, melee channeling, and those stances...

Melee channeling. First and foremost, because they are conceptually the same idea, and give off the same particle effects when abilities are being used, i would propose that melee channeling should draw from the same energy bar as all operator attacks. Rework or change that however you will.

Melee blocking would be fine if there was more reaon to use your melee weapon by itself, or if parrying was actually useful. Face tanking damage isnt what im suggesting, but melee as it is definitely seems its for tankier frames, because of the enemies you have to go up against...What really are you blocking? Bullets i guess. Aoe damage is a no go, you arent blocking bombard missiles or napalm balls, nothing the infested dish out, none of the attacks from bursas, maybe the knock downs....nope. Most tanky frames cant block while using their defensive powers, or at least rhino cant, and most caster frames are too busy doing actually useful things to survive, like dodging while playing, to survive. So while im not asking for face tanking, being able to block, parry, or manuever around in some special way with melee against those attacks would be nice. Also, instead of waiting to be attacked, the parry system should allow you to preemptively attack melee enemies who are opening themselves for attacks. Right now if you are fighting a melee opponent, your just trading blows back and forth, a numbers game...idk.

Heavy and light attacks. Why do they rely on the same button? It made sense when DE removed heavy attacks all together in favor of a combo system in the form of individual stances for each weapon, but now that its back, why does  each not have its own button? When you are full melee, all those buttons you use to fire guns arent being used to fire guns anymore...so....Maybe DE doesnt want to be like the rest of the game developer crowd with a heavy attack button and light attack button that can both be used to pull off different combos, but the hold to charge really doesnt work unless your charging up the attack and can let go at any moment. Right now if you have to cancel the attack to hit something coming at you too fast, or shoot it, you lose that extra damage and waste time charging up a heavy attack in the first place. Its really only useful on downed enemies or cc'ed enemies, if its useful at all, because we have stealth damage for most of those guys.

Secondary melee: the point im trying to make here is that theres no reason to carry a dagger or machete over an orthos prime or galantine, not because they arent useful, but because those weapons are just about every bit as useful as a secondary, so...seriously, its a size issue to me. A dagger, or a set of claws on your hands take up just as much space as a pistol or a set of kunai...

Id like to see the ability to switch between several stamces in game using your inventory slot, and seeing the secondary weapon, if melee, function as is. Melee weapons like daggers, single handed swords, claws and fists/feet-obek, etc. and the such would be able to be used together with their heavier counterparts like the pistols and melee idea. This also allows you to throw kunai and use them as less powerful daggers. You can possibly also throw daggers. And we can add in hachetes. Maybe im going to far, theyd be as bad as were/are machetes probably. Own seperate mods i have ideas for, and reasoning behind it, but with the update that will allow us to hold pistols and melee weapons simultaneously, i think it will work fine with some finetuning.

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edits

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

1.That 1st paragraph is the obvious reason why there is quick melee. All the "air attacks" do not compare to the full damage of a melee weapon when built properly and has a proper stance unless you have maiming strike. Seriously shooting your weapon and then being able to do a Tempo royale spin2win combo seems pretty much op to me. I'll understand if you were directing this at the one-handed swords/machetes. Also, full melee actually makes sense,  you're shooting a rifle and is able to instantly do a combo with a heavy weapon that requires two hands while still having a rifle in your hand is wonky. I seriously doubt that you think that there are people who don't go full melee, I'm one of them since melee is usually a fall back tactic when your weapon cannot put out enough damage. But also because it's fun as Warframe is supposed to be.

2. I don't see your point considering it's the warframe that's using the weapon, not the operator. They are just channeling energy into the weapon from the frame. Just because they have the same particle effects doesn't mean that they should draw from the operator's energy pool.

3. Melee blocking is there cuz why not, would be weird not being able to block. I already have a solution to you special maneuver problem. It's called shift... And the parry system is a QOL we don't need it, all it does is stun whoever enemies' attack you block and open them to finisher damage. Really, if you're preemptively attacking an enemy you're gonna kill them either way and I'm surprised that you're an eagle and talking about trading blows since melee units are the weakest in the game and always die within 3 hits of your weapon.

4. There is no heavy and light attack. There's attack and charged attack, warframe is a fast-paced tps not a 2D brawler.  Charge attacks are generally precise melee attacks; melee weapons will be swung in the direction of the reticle and can more easily obtain headshots or more accurately hit targets. - Warframe Wikia. Any enemy that is downed or cc'ed is gonna get a finisher either way. Even adding a heavy attack and light attack is in itself unnecessary.

5. This, this is just completely irrelevant to the point of why it's even mentioned. Equipping melee weapons as secondaries, then what's the point of having three weapon slots. Defeats the purpose of warframe's combat system in general. I do hope they make one-handed weapons dual wieldable with pistols and not just glaives but I don't see why that will warrant the need for new mods just for simultaneous welding of melee and pistols. Seems unnecessary and too much mod categories for no reason. 

So it all comes down to this. Is melee a second-rate mechanic? No Especially when the potential of a melee weapon far exceeds that of a primary or secondary weapon

Whether you think it's wrong or not, warframe was built with this system, what you're implying is making core changes to the system in itself when it's perfect the way it is and is a sold system that people don't have a problem with.

[TheBrsrkr]

Well I touch on channeling here (shameless bump) and Space mom at least seems to like it. 

I think heavy and light attacks are bound to the same key because it just seems to be the best place to put it. I don't mind it being there actually, but a lot of people do. Just add it to the keybinding section and be done with it. 

As for the stance thing, since you put away the gun anyway when you melee, I don't see why not. Just means I have  no reason to switch to it though. 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

2 hours ago, ShadowExodus said:

1.That 1st paragraph is the obvious reason why there is quick melee. All the "air attacks" do not compare to the full damage of a melee weapon when built properly and has a proper stance unless you have maiming strike. Seriously shooting your weapon and then being able to do a Tempo royale spin2win combo seems pretty much op to me. I'll understand if you were directing this at the one-handed swords/machetes. Also, full melee actually makes sense,  you're shooting a rifle and is able to instantly do a combo with a heavy weapon that requires two hands while still having a rifle in your hand is wonky. I seriously doubt that you think that there are people who don't go full melee, I'm one of them since melee is usually a fall back tactic when your weapon cannot put out enough damage. But also because it's fun as Warframe is supposed to be.

2. I don't see your point considering it's the warframe that's using the weapon, not the operator. They are just channeling energy into the weapon from the frame. Just because they have the same particle effects doesn't mean that they should draw from the operator's energy pool.

3. Melee blocking is there cuz why not, would be weird not being able to block. I already have a solution to you special maneuver problem. It's called shift... And the parry system is a QOL we don't need it, all it does is stun whoever enemies' attack you block and open them to finisher damage. Really, if you're preemptively attacking an enemy you're gonna kill them either way and I'm surprised that you're an eagle and talking about trading blows since melee units are the weakest in the game and always die within 3 hits of your weapon.

4. There is no heavy and light attack. There's attack and charged attack, warframe is a fast-paced tps not a 2D brawler.  Charge attacks are generally precise melee attacks; melee weapons will be swung in the direction of the reticle and can more easily obtain headshots or more accurately hit targets. - Warframe Wikia. Any enemy that is downed or cc'ed is gonna get a finisher either way. Even adding a heavy attack and light attack is in itself unnecessary.

5. This, this is just completely irrelevant to the point of why it's even mentioned. Equipping melee weapons as secondaries, then what's the point of having three weapon slots. Defeats the purpose of warframe's combat system in general. I do hope they make one-handed weapons dual wieldable with pistols and not just glaives but I don't see why that will warrant the need for new mods just for simultaneous welding of melee and pistols. Seems unnecessary and too much mod categories for no reason. 

So it all comes down to this. Is melee a second-rate mechanic? No Especially when the potential of a melee weapon far exceeds that of a primary or secondary weapon

Whether you think it's wrong or not, warframe was built with this system, what you're implying is making core changes to the system in itself when it's perfect the way it is and is a sold system that people don't have a problem with.

Oh i forgot to talk about hit boxes....

1). You can perform spin attacks. While i have no qualms with this, you can already spin to win while firing a gun (figuratively). Im making a point that the stance being available from this position is of no cosequence. Of course, it sounds like power creep, but the you probably have better melee builds. Iv been using elemental weapons forever, serro was my go to up until ohma came out, so my melee isnt killing lvl150 enemies. It probably would break some things, but thats where balancing happens...of course we are talking about making full melee better.

2). The point is the frame is conceptually simply using raw energy when channeling, not the specialized attacks it uses with its abilities, the same way your operator uses that energy to pull off attacks such as the madurai beam...its just one take on the idea to have channeling draw from another energy pool. If you disagree with seperate energy pools, thats fine, but i think every frame should be on equal footing when it comes to energy channeling. 

3. I dont know what shift means, im a console pleeb of course, but theres no reason to frown on qol. I can tell you as an eagle (if it means anything other than that i have a big mouth and like to make lots of posts) is that blocking used to be somewhat relevant, a tiny bit, before parkour 2.0, reflection was actually a mod some people used in their builds, and parrying could be so much more. All they have to do is try. Its not going to hurt the game to make a poorly functioning part of the game better.

4. Saying a charged attack isnt a heavy attack is fine and dandy, but it doesnt function the way something being charged up should (opinion). Being able to release it at any time, and only receiving however much extra damage youve charged up to that point would be much better (to me). These are all suggestions. I dont know why everyone gets upset about qol. The thing about 90% of the ridiculous suggestions people lable as qol is that theybare ridiculous. There are ridiculous suggestiond here. But charge attacks? Parrying? Its a matter of opinion.

5. The point of the 3 weapon slots remains the same. Nothing changes. Secondary weapons grows to encompass more melee weapons than throwing knives. And yes, technically, i would say if you could really control your character, you could take a spira and simply use it as a dagger. Of course multiple mods arent needed. If youve put primed reach on your heavy melee/sword/scythe/whatever...you simply cant use it again for the secondary melee. The problem is the elemental mods, unless you can just duplicate them. Then you have to decide which mods can be duplicated or which ones cant. But its just a silly idea, and an explanation of how that silly idea would have to work.

Of course to you the system is perfect the way it is. But im sure you know that was just typed by your own fingers. Saying it outloud is helpful to reassure yourself, but your not going to really change my opinions by just saying "its perfect".

Edited October 12, 2017 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edit

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

4 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Well I touch on channeling here (shameless bump) and Space mom at least seems to like it. 

I think heavy and light attacks are bound to the same key because it just seems to be the best place to put it. I don't mind it being there actually, but a lot of people do. Just add it to the keybinding section and be done with it. 

As for the stance thing, since you put away the gun anyway when you melee, I don't see why not. Just means I have  no reason to switch to it though. 

No reason to switch to melee if you can change stances?

[TheBrsrkr]

7 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

No reason to switch to melee if you can change stances?

Oh, I didn't see that. 

It would make things a lot more interesting, sure. S long as they buff channeling and blocking, I would use it more. For me, if I could use Tempo Royale without switching to my Scindo Prime, I wouldn't use anything else because I wouldn't really need to. But hey, that's just me. This would be good for Polearms and such. 

 

Also, you forgot the combo counter. 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Oh wow....unrelated, but DE used to personally respond to posts? Your channeling post was good, why did nothing change? 

What should be done with the combo counter?

[TheBrsrkr]

45 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Oh wow....unrelated, but DE used to personally respond to posts? Your channeling post was good, why did nothing change? 

What should be done with the combo counter?

If you read the Eidolon announcement, you can see them hinting at a change in channeling. Mostly overlooked because no one cares about channeling, but I guess you can't get everything. I'll see if I can find it. 

 

Here it is:

 

On 9/29/2017 at 3:48 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

The Inner Might passive originally (at the time this devworkshop was posted) granted up to 50% more Channeling Efficiency on Melee. We’ve since increased that to 60% in an effort to breathe a bit more life into Channeling. On the one hand - right now is that enough life? Possibly not. But we are boldening a bit to revisit the mechanic down the road! 

 

 

As for the combo counter, I made a thread on that too:

I think the base counter timer needs a buff instead of the Body Count bandaid we have right now. It would greatly increase melee prowess for every weapon and could add more variety to the weapons we have. 

Edited October 12, 2017 by TheBrsrkr

[(PSN)NicolaiBM]

16 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

We are required to switch over to melee only to use stances when the stances themselves should be completely useable all the time.

Considering you got quick melee in the first place, melee is the best scaleable weapon you got and it have the best scaleable mods, I wouldn't call it treated as secondary. Especially with the changes to wielding a throwable melee with a pistol. This should also answer when you'd be going full on melee.

16 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Melee channeling. First and foremost, because they are conceptually the same idea, and give off the same particle effects when abilities are being used, i would propose that melee channeling should draw from the same energy bar as all operator attacks. Rework or change that however you will.

No, draining your energy for additional damage is fine the way it is, high risk/high reward. Otherwise you'd be abusing it in any given survival or defense, with no risk at all, because let's face it, you only use your operator for kuva farming. Imagine if primary or secondary could all have channeling, combos and scaleable mods.

16 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Melee blocking would be fine if there was more reaon to use your melee weapon by itself, or if parrying was actually useful. Face tanking damage isnt what im suggesting, but melee as it is definitely seems its for tankier frames, because of the enemies you have to go up against...

Well yes, you have to be tanky to melee, otherwise you need to learn to utilize some of the ability mechanics. Did you really not expect melee to come with a drawback? You need high survivability to run around in a bullet storm with a sword, otherwise they might aswell just introduce the option to be invincible!

At this point, I honestly can't be bothered to point out any more of the obvious for you, it seems like you're just crying about melee not being strong enough, when reality is, it's the strongest weapon class we have. It's like a banshee crying about soundquake not killing level 500. Fact is still: bloodrush, weeping wounds, condition overload, healing return, combo counter, body count and drifting contact, as if that's not enough, you still got naramon!

[o.0-]

The Secondary Melee idea got me thinking of an idea I had where we could choose a melee weapon for general CQC and one for Stealth Finishers.

That way I could run around with the Galatine P or another really large Weapon and use say my Karyst on finishers.

 

There was another thread that talked about Pistol Holsters, and with this idea, I was reminded of how Mass Effect had its node points for weapons. The reason I comment on that, is that for Warframe, it could be cool to not only have varied points of weapon placement, like what can be done with melee, but also have the ability to mix up our arsenal some.

For example, to say equip the Redeemer and be able to have it function as a Secondary, with Secondary mods, and as a Melee using melee mods. So with this example, bringing this weapon one could also bring a Glaive, be able to throw that, while retaining the Redeemer to fire into crowds and slice them up to reload and so on. Alternatively it could be cool to carry a dagger and have a sort of dual wield, very likely with a new stance being necessary.

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

19 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Oh i forgot to talk about hit boxes....

1). You can perform spin attacks. While i have no qualms with this, you can already spin to win while firing a gun (figuratively). Im making a point that the stance being available from this position is of no cosequence. Of course, it sounds like power creep, but the you probably have better melee builds. Iv been using elemental weapons forever, serro was my go to up until ohma came out, so my melee isnt killing lvl150 enemies. It probably would break some things, but thats where balancing happens...of course we are talking about making full melee better.

2). The point is the frame is conceptually simply using raw energy when channeling, not the specialized attacks it uses with its abilities, the same way your operator uses that energy to pull off attacks such as the madurai beam...its just one take on the idea to have channeling draw from another energy pool. If you disagree with seperate energy pools, thats fine, but i think every frame should be on equal footing when it comes to energy channeling. 

3. I dont know what shift means, im a console pleeb of course, but theres no reason to frown on qol. I can tell you as an eagle (if it means anything other than that i have a big mouth and like to make lots of posts) is that blocking used to be somewhat relevant, a tiny bit, before parkour 2.0, reflection was actually a mod some people used in their builds, and parrying could be so much more. All they have to do is try. Its not going to hurt the game to make a poorly functioning part of the game better.

4. Saying a charged attack isnt a heavy attack is fine and dandy, but it doesnt function the way something being charged up should (opinion). Being able to release it at any time, and only receiving however much extra damage youve charged up to that point would be much better (to me). These are all suggestions. I dont know why everyone gets upset about qol. The thing about 90% of the ridiculous suggestions people lable as qol is that theybare ridiculous. There are ridiculous suggestiond here. But charge attacks? Parrying? Its a matter of opinion.

5. The point of the 3 weapon slots remains the same. Nothing changes. Secondary weapons grows to encompass more melee weapons than throwing knives. And yes, technically, i would say if you could really control your character, you could take a spira and simply use it as a dagger. Of course multiple mods arent needed. If youve put primed reach on your heavy melee/sword/scythe/whatever...you simply cant use it again for the secondary melee. The problem is the elemental mods, unless you can just duplicate them. Then you have to decide which mods can be duplicated or which ones cant. But its just a silly idea, and an explanation of how that silly idea would have to work.

Of course to you the system is perfect the way it is. But im sure you know that was just typed by your own fingers. Saying it outloud is helpful to reassure yourself, but your not going to really change my opinions by just saying "its perfect".

1. See there's your problem, anything over level 120 is pointless.

2. The warframe is channeling their energy into the weapon. Do you not get the concept. How is the operator suppose to use their own energy when they a currently using the warframe's energy.Wait why am I even saying this. The operator powers the warframe with their own energy so basically, Channeling is using the operator's energy. 

3. Shift = rolling/backflipping/side dodging and there is also bullet jump.

4. Parrying will forever be a qol and I agree on being able to release an attack throughout the charge. Channel and Block = reflection you don't need the mod anymore. Funny how you say heavy and light attacks, where is that going to fit on a controller? On Pc it is unnecessary clutter. Unless you have an elite controller then nvm.

5.At least we agree that it is a silly idea. Since warframe was built upon Primary, Secondary and Melee. 

I don't try to change your opinions, what's the point. But finding out the flaws in your idea is why you post in general feedback.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

10 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

1. See there's your problem, anything over level 120 is pointless.

2. The warframe is channeling their energy into the weapon. Do you not get the concept. How is the operator suppose to use their own energy when they a currently using the warframe's energy.Wait why am I even saying this. The operator powers the warframe with their own energy so basically, Channeling is using the operator's energy. 

3. Shift = rolling/backflipping/side dodging and there is also bullet jump.

4. Parrying will forever be a qol and I agree on being able to release an attack throughout the charge. Channel and Block = reflection you don't need the mod anymore. Funny how you say heavy and light attacks, where is that going to fit on a controller? On Pc it is unnecessary clutter. Unless you have an elite controller then nvm.

5.At least we agree that it is a silly idea. Since warframe was built upon Primary, Secondary and Melee. 

I don't try to change your opinions, what's the point. But finding out the flaws in your idea is why you post in general feedback.

1. I dont think the first point is being done justice...i understand you are saying quick melee is not a problem, but the point was that quick melee has all the damage full melee has through slide attacks, ground finishers, and air attacks. So what are stances bringing to the table? Lets say they stay where they are, because theres no need to do away with the quick melee limtation. 

2.....so....? You agree? Because that was my reasoning...it really just boils down to wether or not you agree channeling should draw from a seperate energy bar, and then how you explain that second energy bar. You cant just add in a second energy bar and hope plot armor protects it lore wise...

3. I understand parkour. I use parkour. Theres still no reason to leave blocking or parrying in their sorry states. This post is also inspired by a post that was basically stating bullet jumps have gone too far....

4. Read Bsrkrs channeling post he put here. Its really a good post. If channeling draws from a seperate energy, then sure, yeah. But losing energy just for blocking is even more reason not to block or channel. I channel with nekros because energy is all he has, if you use despoil and equilibrium, you never run out of energy, and soul punch isnt doing anything super special. But most frames arent good for channeling, so in turn arent good for blocking.

5. But its an idea. Secondary already encompasses melee weapons...they are throwing knives, but like i just said, you could take a spira and use it as a dagger, the unprimed version is actually longer than a heat dagger. Im saying small melee weapons can be counted as secondaries.

Yeah, i post here hoping people add or detract to my ideas. I do see where it can changed, but i also see where it should be supported.

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

3 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

1. I dont think the first point is being done justice...i understand you are saying quick melee is not a problem, but the point was that quick melee has all the damage full melee has through slide attacks, ground finishers, and air attacks. So what are stances bringing to the table? Lets say they stay where they are, because theres no need to do away with the quick melee limtation. 

2.....so....? You agree? Because that was my reasoning...it really just boils down to wether or not you agree channeling should draw from a seperate energy bar, and then how you explain that second energy bar. You cant just add in a second energy bar and hope plot armor protects it lore wise...

3. I understand parkour. I use parkour. Theres still no reason to leave blocking or parrying in their sorry states. This post is also inspired by a post that was basically stating bullet jumps have gone too far....

4. Read Bsrkrs channeling post he put here. Its really a good post. If channeling draws from a seperate energy, then sure, yeah. But losing energy just for blocking is even more reason not to block or channel. I channel with nekros because energy is all he has, if you use despoil and equilibrium, you never run out of energy, and soul punch isnt doing anything super special. But most frames arent good for channeling, so in turn arent good for blocking.

5. But its an idea. Secondary already encompasses melee weapons...they are throwing knives, but like i just said, you could take a spira and use it as a dagger, the unprimed version is actually longer than a heat dagger. Im saying small melee weapons can be counted as secondaries.

Yeah, i post here hoping people add or detract to my ideas. I do see where it can changed, but i also see where it should be supported.

1. What do stances bring?  They enhance a melee weapon's attacks with special effects, from increased damage per hit to 100% Status Effect procs to enhancing mobility via lunges and jumps.

2. You're saying this like our viewpoints switch. Anyway, a second energy bar wouldn't make sense anyway because where are you drawing the energy from?

3.I don't see why blocking is in a sorry state and again parrying is a QoL, it's literally just timing the channeling when an enemy melees you. Unneeded since most players will be constantly mashing the melee button. I don't see how Bullet jumps have gone too far? Bullet jumps are the reason why players don't struggle going from point A to point B and why Excalibur was able to be reworked.

4. His post is good but his points and your points are different. He is talking about changing the channeling drains and other stuff which I agree (except about channeling enhancing the warframe themselves well attack speed and slam radius is fine). But that doesn't reinforce the point of channeling having a second energy bar.

5. So let me get this straight, what you're basically saying is that you want two melee slots because of 3(4) throwing weapons? And then because of that, you want certain melee weapons to be counted as secondaries. Do you see the redundancy in what you're saying? I certainly do. 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

1 hour ago, ShadowExodus said:

1. What do stances bring?  They enhance a melee weapon's attacks with special effects, from increased damage per hit to 100% Status Effect procs to enhancing mobility via lunges and jumps.

2. You're saying this like our viewpoints switch. Anyway, a second energy bar wouldn't make sense anyway because where are you drawing the energy from?

3.I don't see why blocking is in a sorry state and again parrying is a QoL, it's literally just timing the channeling when an enemy melees you. Unneeded since most players will be constantly mashing the melee button. I don't see how Bullet jumps have gone too far? Bullet jumps are the reason why players don't struggle going from point A to point B and why Excalibur was able to be reworked.

4. His post is good but his points and your points are different. He is talking about changing the channeling drains and other stuff which I agree (except about channeling enhancing the warframe themselves well attack speed and slam radius is fine). But that doesn't reinforce the point of channeling having a second energy bar.

5. So let me get this straight, what you're basically saying is that you want two melee slots because of 3(4) throwing weapons? And then because of that, you want certain melee weapons to be counted as secondaries. Do you see the redundancy in what you're saying? I certainly do. 

1. Point taken. Not all stances are useful enough to make a difference though. This ties into point 5.

2. The second energy bar is the operators energy, the same energy you use when attacking as an operator.The point being that warframe powers can still be active even if an operator leaves the frame. This may have been an oversight of the developers, but it does imply the frames at least store energy seperately. It just boils down wether or not there is need for a second bar, and you have stated no.

3. Parts of the game that are no longer relevant need to be brought up to date or deleted. Thats my veiw point. Theres a fine line between qol and powercreep in the eyes of most who dont support this way of thought though. Blocking requires you be using melee, but if thats the case, most people simply prefer to be invisible, and rhino cannot actually block any damage with iron skin on, which i assume is the case for other tanky frames.

4. My point is something should happen. A second energy bar just makes every frame equally capable of channeling, as many have different energy levels and use abilities differently. His points are good and i would take better channeling mods and efficiency anyday.

5.No. I dont see any redundancy. You have a primary. You have a secondary. You have a melee weapon. A dagger is something you would carry as well as a sword. This makes the dark split sword make much more sense and will allow you to carry all 3(4) combinations of it into battle. It is just a fanciful concept. Its done in many video games, like shadow of mordor. While i realize you dont like it, i have to argue on the point of its supposed redundancy.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

9 hours ago, (PS4)NicolaiBM said:

Considering you got quick melee in the first place, melee is the best scaleable weapon you got and it have the best scaleable mods, I wouldn't call it treated as secondary. Especially with the changes to wielding a throwable melee with a pistol. This should also answer when you'd be going full on melee.

No, draining your energy for additional damage is fine the way it is, high risk/high reward. Otherwise you'd be abusing it in any given survival or defense, with no risk at all, because let's face it, you only use your operator for kuva farming. Imagine if primary or secondary could all have channeling, combos and scaleable mods.

Well yes, you have to be tanky to melee, otherwise you need to learn to utilize some of the ability mechanics. Did you really not expect melee to come with a drawback? You need high survivability to run around in a bullet storm with a sword, otherwise they might aswell just introduce the option to be invincible!

At this point, I honestly can't be bothered to point out any more of the obvious for you, it seems like you're just crying about melee not being strong enough, when reality is, it's the strongest weapon class we have. It's like a banshee crying about soundquake not killing level 500. Fact is still: bloodrush, weeping wounds, condition overload, healing return, combo counter, body count and drifting contact, as if that's not enough, you still got naramon!

It doesnt answer, im sorry i dont see it. While being able to use throwables and pistols simulataneously helps make throwable weapons relevant, i dont see how that is an answer for daggers, or machetes...because it hasnt happened for them yet.

Is channeling high reward? Thats another point youve brought up that i really dont see, please if you would, go into detail for that, it would help the conversation. If it relies on the operators energy, then it drains and has to be recharged before its available again. Thats the limitation. I dont care for melee damage being buffed, but the mechanics of how things operate.

You have to be tanky to be able to melee, but not every frame expected to melee is tanky. The high survivability that would come with running through a bullet storm with a sword would be blocking and parrying. And weapons of mass destruction like ogris missiles would have to have a way to be dealt with. 

Its the strongest weapon class we have if you have those mods. Instead of making the mechanics of how melee works in warframe better, they simply tried to make the situation better with mods. Sure, the combo counter is a thing now too...but i still say melee is in a sorry state, just as it was without those mods. Naramon is cheating. Always has been and always will be for as long as its available in its current iteration.

Edited October 13, 2017 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

9 hours ago, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

The Secondary Melee idea got me thinking of an idea I had where we could choose a melee weapon for general CQC and one for Stealth Finishers.

That way I could run around with the Galatine P or another really large Weapon and use say my Karyst on finishers.

 

There was another thread that talked about Pistol Holsters, and with this idea, I was reminded of how Mass Effect had its node points for weapons. The reason I comment on that, is that for Warframe, it could be cool to not only have varied points of weapon placement, like what can be done with melee, but also have the ability to mix up our arsenal some.

For example, to say equip the Redeemer and be able to have it function as a Secondary, with Secondary mods, and as a Melee using melee mods. So with this example, bringing this weapon one could also bring a Glaive, be able to throw that, while retaining the Redeemer to fire into crowds and slice them up to reload and so on. Alternatively it could be cool to carry a dagger and have a sort of dual wield, very likely with a new stance being necessary.

Thats exactly it. Or not exactly what i wrote, but what im going for. 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

10 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

If you read the Eidolon announcement, you can see them hinting at a change in channeling. Mostly overlooked because no one cares about channeling, but I guess you can't get everything. I'll see if I can find it. 

 

Here it is:

 

On 9/29/2017 at 3:48 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

The Inner Might passive originally (at the time this devworkshop was posted) granted up to 50% more Channeling Efficiency on Melee. We’ve since increased that to 60% in an effort to breathe a bit more life into Channeling. On the one hand - right now is that enough life? Possibly not. But we are boldening a bit to revisit the mechanic down the road! 

 

 

As for the combo counter, I made a thread on that too:

I think the base counter timer needs a buff instead of the Body Count bandaid we have right now. It would greatly increase melee prowess for every weapon and could add more variety to the weapons we have. 

Ok, this is some good stuff. 

I need to fix my post, i think its confusing people because it was rushed, or maybe it just doesnt make sense.

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

5 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

1. Point taken. Not all stances are useful enough to make a difference though. This ties into point 5.

2. The second energy bar is the operators energy, the same energy you use when attacking as an operator.The point being that warframe powers can still be active even if an operator leaves the frame. This may have been an oversight of the developers, but it does imply the frames at least store energy seperately. It just boils down wether or not there is need for a second bar, and you have stated no.

3. Parts of the game that are no longer relevant need to be brought up to date or deleted. Thats my veiw point. Theres a fine line between qol and powercreep in the eyes of most who dont support this way of thought though. Blocking requires you be using melee, but if thats the case, most people simply prefer to be invisible, and rhino cannot actually block any damage with iron skin on, which i assume is the case for other tanky frames.

4. My point is something should happen. A second energy bar just makes every frame equally capable of channeling, as many have different energy levels and use abilities differently. His points are good and i would take better channeling mods and efficiency anyday.

5.No. I dont see any redundancy. You have a primary. You have a secondary. You have a melee weapon. A dagger is something you would carry as well as a sword. This makes the dark split sword make much more sense and will allow you to carry all 3(4) combinations of it into battle. It is just a fanciful concept. Its done in many video games, like shadow of mordor. While i realize you dont like it, i have to argue on the point of its supposed redundancy.

1. Each weapon type has at least 1 to 2 good stances (looking at that pitiful iron phoenix) at least.

2. No

3. So you're making a point that blocking and parrying are no longer relevant so they need to be brought up to date (Parrying is an unneeded system either way). Only the tankiest frames can survive bullet storms this is plain simple. Do you expect say a Saryn to survive bullet storms when she is blocking? Compared to someone like inaros or even nidus. Whether you are blocking or not it's a given that only the tankiest frames will survive a full on bullet storm in mid to high levels. And being able to block explosive weaponry is far fetched by itself but hey, it's a slow projectile, just roll but I doubt you will be able to see it coming while surrounded by enemies. Invisibility gives an advantage to being able to hit without them fighting back, and do you notice that the less tanky frames are the ones with invisibility same goes for rhino, he's not getting damaged now is he, he doesn't need to block once iron skin is on. 

4. There is flow and primed flow, power efficiency mods etc. My point being every frame has at least above 250 energy when using the basic energy mods. Some frames don't even need these mods due to some mechanics or being able to effectively use rage. What The Brsrkr posted is the most agreeable form of channeling that I don't have any qualms about. Have you even thought about when you would want to enter operator mode but can't use any of the abilities because you warframe was channeling? A second energy pool doesn't make sense and having the second energy pool take out of the operator's energy pool is hindering the operator play.

5. Shadow of Mordor is not a good example because 1.Talion uses one sword to fight 2. the short sword is there for stealth kills or ground finishers only So comparing a action-adventure with a specified combat system on melee and stealth with no guns to a tps built to be fast-paced and alternate between guns and swords fails in of itself. The dark-split sword is also not a good example primarily of the fact that the dark sword and the dark dagger exists.Honestly they should create a unique stance for it that allows it to be used as a heavy sword and a dual sword through combos. 

So why did I say it's redundant? Think about it, you want to use throwing knives as melee weapons when you already have a melee weapon ready to be used. Tell me how many tps games use a three weapon category system that encompasses melee and ranged other than destiny (even they only added swords after major updates). So yes what you're saying is redundant in warframe terms. You want to add daggers to the secondary category to be used for what, stealth finishers? They aren't going to suddenly find more use unless you're gonna be slapping on covert lethality. Then the example of redeemer and glaive, do I really need to spell out the flaw in this. Seems like a very unnecessary change to the foundation of the system for no reason. Not that I don't like the idea, it makes no sense when it comes into contact with the combat system of warframe.

Edited October 13, 2017 by ShadowExodus

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

17 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

1. Each weapon type has at least 1 to 2 good stances (looking at that pitiful iron phoenix) at least.

2. No

3. So you're making a point that blocking and parrying are no longer relevant so they need to be brought up to date (Parrying is an unneeded system either way). Only the tankiest frames can survive bullet storms this is plain simple. Do you expect say a Saryn to survive bullet storms when she is blocking? Compared to someone like inaros or even nidus. Whether you are blocking or not it's a given that only the tankiest frames will survive a full on bullet storm in mid to high levels. And being able to block explosive weaponry is far fetched by itself but hey, it's a slow projectile, just roll but I doubt you will be able to see it coming while surrounded by enemies. Invisibility gives an advantage to being able to hit without them fighting back, and do you notice that the less tanky frames are the ones with invisibility same goes for rhino, he's not getting damaged now is he, he doesn't need to block once iron skin is on. 

4. There is flow and primed flow, power effieciency mods etc. My point being every frame has at least above 250 energy when using the basic energy mods. Some frames don't even need these mods due to some mechanics or being able to effectively use rage. What The Brsrkr posted is the most agreeable form of channeling that I don't have any qualms about. Have you even thought about when you would want to enter operator mode but can't use any of the abilities because you warframe was channeling? A second energy pool doesn't make sense and having the second energy pool take out of the operator's energy pool is hindering the operator play.

5. Shadow of Mordor is not a good example because 1.Talion uses one sword to fight 2. the short sword is there for stealth kills or ground finishers only So comparing a action-adventure with a specified combat system on melee and stealth with no guns to a tps built to be fast-paced and alternate between guns and swords fails in of itself. The dark-split sword is also not a good example primarily of the fact that the dark sword and the dark dagger exists.Honestly they should create a unique stance for it that allows it to be used as a heavy sword and a dual sword through combos. 

So why did I say it's redundant? Think about it, you want to use throwing knives as melee weapons when you already have a melee weapon ready to be used. Tell me how many tps games use a three weapon category system that encompasses melee and ranged other than destiny (even they only added swords after major updates). So yes what you're saying is redundant in warframe terms. You want to add daggers to the secondary category to be used for what, stealth finishers? They aren't going to suddenly find more use unless you're gonna be slapping on covert lehality. Then the example of redeemer and glaive, do I really need to spell out the flaw in this. Seems like a very unnecessary change to the foundation of the system for no reason. Not that I don't like the idea, it makes no sense when it comes into contact with the combat system of warframe.

1.ok, point taken

2.ok, point previously taken.

3. Everything youve said here only gives me more reason to believe it needs to be updated or deleted. And while most people only use toxic lash to spread procs and thus use the highest ranged melee possible, i do think it fun sometimes to try and use venka with her. It just doesnt work out well past lvl 40/50 because i dont have all the special mods. Orthose prime? Sure.

4. "Some frames dont even need these mods"...thats why the seperate energy bar for channeling was proposed, to put everyone on equal footing without nerfing the ones already in a better place. As for operators, the energy replenishes quickly, itd be almost like the old stamina bar, and im sure you would have the forethought to wait for it to recharge. Also, if an ooerator exits the frame, the energy channeling would logically be toggled off right? High risk/high reward? I just havnt found a reason to give up on this. Yeah, anything IS better.

5. Talion uses a bow. So its bow (primary), dagger (secondary), sword (melee). This is pretty much the set up you would have in warframe. I guess i have to prove to you why this wouldnt be over powered, because i cant prove to why its necessary. It wouldnt hinder anyone at all, as secondaries still encompass all the same weapons already there, not going to lose a gun. If you dont dislike the idea, mayne you could help flesh out what to you would do to make it work. Please.

Also.      l

               l

              V

Edited October 13, 2017 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

11 hours ago, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

The Secondary Melee idea got me thinking of an idea I had where we could choose a melee weapon for general CQC and one for Stealth Finishers.

That way I could run around with the Galatine P or another really large Weapon and use say my Karyst on finishers.

 

There was another thread that talked about Pistol Holsters, and with this idea, I was reminded of how Mass Effect had its node points for weapons. The reason I comment on that, is that for Warframe, it could be cool to not only have varied points of weapon placement, like what can be done with melee, but also have the ability to mix up our arsenal some.

For example, to say equip the Redeemer and be able to have it function as a Secondary, with Secondary mods, and as a Melee using melee mods. So with this example, bringing this weapon one could also bring a Glaive, be able to throw that, while retaining the Redeemer to fire into crowds and slice them up to reload and so on. Alternatively it could be cool to carry a dagger and have a sort of dual wield, very likely with a new stance being necessary.

this.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

And the dark split sword is a good example BECAUSE the dark sword and dark dagger exist...

[blazinvire]

Secondary melee alone would be a godsend imo, I can't even count the amount of times I wish I could carry at least a dagger as well as my nikana, just so I can do stealth stuff and not feel my decision screws me over when crap hits the fan.

I feel like it wouldn't even be that hard to implement, hold F to switch between guns or melee, tap F to cycle the equipped weapon in the category you're in.
Also would be nice to have a Quick Shot option, let us hit reload when we've got our melee on to have us quickdraw our sidearm and squeeze off a few rounds.

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

19 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

1.ok, point taken

2.ok, point previously taken.

3. Everything youve said here only gives me more reason to believe it needs to be updated or deleted. And while most people only use toxic lash to spread procs and thus use the highest ranged melee possible, i do think it fun sometimes to try and use venka with her. It just doesnt work out well past lvl 40/50 because i dont have all the special mods. Orthose prime? Sure.

4. "Some frames dont even need these mods"...thats why the seperate energy bar for channeling was proposed, to put everyone on equal footing without nerfing the ones already in a better place. As for operators, the energy replenishes quickly, itd be almost like the old stamina bar, and im sure you would have the forethought to wait for it to recharge. Also, if an ooerator exits the frame, the energy channeling would logically be toggled off right? High risk/high reward? I just havnt found a reason to give up on this. Yeah, anything IS better.

5. Talion uses a bow. So its bow (primary), dagger (secondary), sword (melee). This is pretty much the set up you would have in warframe. I guess i have to prove to you why this wouldnt be over powered, because i cant prove to why its necessary. It wouldnt hinder anyone at all, as secondaries still encompass all the same weapons already there, not going to lose a gun. If you dont dislike the idea, mayne you could help flesh out what to you would do to make it work. Please.

Also.      l

               l

              V

I used Saryn as an example, there are other squishy frames that can't fight enemies head-on and almost always have ability that allows them to do it anyway(loki, ash, limbo etc.)

Not gonna continue with that, since Brskr's post already highlighted the problems and gave solutions. Think on how it will be implemented then come back then you will see why I disagree. DE is definitely not going to have energy be able to replenish by itself because like I said before the concept of channeling draws on the warframes energy flowing into it. Like someone with fire abilities will channel his heat through a conductive material. Then you have to ask yourself this like what is the base energy? How will channeling mods affect it? Will people sacrifice a mod slot just for some extra damage when there are better scaling mods? 

More like Sword (primary) Dagger (secondary exclusive for stealth) and Bow (ranged). I don't think it's overpowered just not necessary. In SoM the dagger has a use for only stealth and ground finishers nothing else. That's the intended mechanic but warframe now any weapon can be used for stealth regardless if it's a Huge sword or a simple dagger. It then it all comes back to what I said before, what use is the extra melee weapon or dagger since that is what you are going for? For stealth finishers? For dual wielding? (even that is not possible unless you have a one-handed weapon) What advantage does having a secondary dagger over your Melee weapon? I say that the dark-split sword isn't a good example because it essentially shows that using a dagger with a one-handed melee weapon makes it a dual sword. Have you noticed that the actual dual swords are one big sword and one small dagger-like one save for the dex dakra and non-swords. The dual Skana, Dual heat swords (like darksplit has heat sword and heat dagger), Dark split sword all shows that if you were to ever have a dagger and a OH sword it will just become dual swords in DE terms. Then there are mods. Will the secondary melee have specific mods for them? Will they share the mods of the prime melee weapon? or are you going have to farm to two of the same mods to use two melees at the same time? Because the sentinel already shows that you can't use the same mod in for two different weapons in the same category, then that just adds to the burden of having to farmx2 in a grindy game like warframe where it is a godsend to even get a rare mod with drop chances being as low as 3% (condition overload). Even if it did work in other games I just don't see how this system will work in warframe especially with all the different mechanics like the mod system. The best action to take is to suggest to DE to implement the dual usage of secondaries and one handed melee weapons like they did with glaive and end it there

On 10/12/2017 at 8:18 AM, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

The Secondary Melee idea got me thinking of an idea I had where we could choose a melee weapon for general CQC and one for Stealth Finishers.

That way I could run around with the Galatine P or another really large Weapon and use say my Karyst on finishers.

 

There was another thread that talked about Pistol Holsters, and with this idea, I was reminded of how Mass Effect had its node points for weapons. The reason I comment on that, is that for Warframe, it could be cool to not only have varied points of weapon placement, like what can be done with melee, but also have the ability to mix up our arsenal some.

For example, to say equip the Redeemer and be able to have it function as a Secondary, with Secondary mods, and as a Melee using melee mods. So with this example, bringing this weapon one could also bring a Glaive, be able to throw that, while retaining the Redeemer to fire into crowds and slice them up to reload and so on. Alternatively it could be cool to carry a dagger and have a sort of dual wield, very likely with a new stance being necessary.

That conflicts with what I pointed out earlier in the mod system. And also reinforces the fact that the daggers and swords will just become dual wielded weapons. Warframe cannot be compared to other games because first and foremost it's mod system.

 

16 hours ago, blazinvire said:

Secondary melee alone would be a godsend imo, I can't even count the amount of times I wish I could carry at least a dagger as well as my nikana, just so I can do stealth stuff and not feel my decision screws me over when crap hits the fan.

I feel like it wouldn't even be that hard to implement, hold F to switch between guns or melee, tap F to cycle the equipped weapon in the category you're in.
Also would be nice to have a Quick Shot option, let us hit reload when we've got our melee on to have us quickdraw our sidearm and squeeze off a few rounds.

Just adds to the conflict with what I said earlier

Edited October 13, 2017 by ShadowExodus

[TheBrsrkr]

20 hours ago, ShadowExodus said:

.

4. His post is good but his points and your points are different. He is talking about changing the channeling drains and other stuff which I agree (except about channeling enhancing the warframe themselves well attack speed and slam radius is fine). But that doesn't reinforce the point of channeling having a second energy bar.

Just want to address this. 

 

The reason I want it to improve maneuverability is because that's what you need in a melee scenario. If it didn't, you'd be either expending more energy just by moving or only turning it on when you need it, which would just mean "hold LMB for more damage" which I'm trying to avoid. As for the slams, I forgot to include that slams themselves would cost extra energy for that radius, so that things like the Jat wouldn't go too much overboard. 

Channeling having its separate bar..... I'll have to think about it. On the one hand it sounds horrible Mike the stamina system. On the other hand, it favors some frames over others because of max energy pools and energy regeneration skills. 

[o.0-]

31 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

That conflicts with what I pointed out earlier in the mod system. And also reinforces the fact that the daggers and swords will just become dual wielded weapons. Warframe cannot be compared to other games because first and foremost it's mod system.

What did you point out earlier?