Melee changes and hopefully secondary melee?

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

3 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Just want to address this. 

 

The reason I want it to improve maneuverability is because that's what you need in a melee scenario. If it didn't, you'd be either expending more energy just by moving or only turning it on when you need it, which would just mean "hold LMB for more damage" which I'm trying to avoid. As for the slams, I forgot to include that slams themselves would cost extra energy for that radius, so that things like the Jat wouldn't go too much overboard. 

Channeling having its separate bar..... I'll have to think about it. On the one hand it sounds horrible Mike the stamina system. On the other hand, it favors some frames over others because of max energy pools and energy regeneration skills. 

Hmm okay I see where you are coming from 

3 hours ago, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

What did you point out earlier?

 

3 hours ago, ShadowExodus said:

What advantage does having a secondary dagger over your Melee weapon? I say that the dark-split sword isn't a good example because it essentially shows that using a dagger with a one-handed melee weapon makes it a dual sword. Have you noticed that the actual dual swords are one big sword and one small dagger-like one save for the dex dakra and non-swords.

^^^^^^^^^^

3 hours ago, ShadowExodus said:

WIll the secondary melee have specific mods for them? Will they share the mods of the prime melee weapon? or are you going have to farm to two of the same mods to use two melees at the same time? Because the sentinel already shows that you can't use the same mod in two different types at the same time, then that just adds to the burden of having to farmx2 in a grindy game like warframe where it is a godsend to even get a rare mod with drop chances being as low as 3% (condition overload)

^^^^^ And  having a dagger doesn't make any difference in stealth gameplay unless you have covert lethality which is the only reason why I think you would want a dagger for stealth either way.

[o.0-]

2 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

 And  having a dagger doesn't make any difference in stealth gameplay unless you have covert lethality which is the only reason why I think you would want a dagger for stealth either way.

The idea needs to be expanding on the gameplay in relation to Stealth. And I think Finishers could use tweaks and updates. There are multiple ways to expand in this.

One method would be to add a tab under Abilities for the Warframe, could be labeled Finisher. And here you can keep the default melee or be able to choose a method. So ideas here can be options for Ash to use his hidden blades, Excal could use his exalted Skana, use your Sheev, bare hands and so on. It does not have to be limited to melee weapons.

That way if you want to rock the Fragor P and hate the finisher it deals and you are running a frame like Ash or Wukong you could choose to have a unique manner to execute Finishers. And so to achieve this how finishers activate could be adjusted some as necessary.

 

[Nazrethim]

On 11/10/2017 at 9:23 PM, ShadowExodus said:

5. This, this is just completely irrelevant to the point of why it's even mentioned. Equipping melee weapons as secondaries, then what's the point of having three weapon slots. Defeats the purpose of warframe's combat system in general. I do hope they make one-handed weapons dual wieldable with pistols and not just glaives but I don't see why that will warrant the need for new mods just for simultaneous welding of melee and pistols. Seems unnecessary and too much mod categories for no reason.

Well, what about this. A new Loadout system (kinda):

You can carry 3 weapons, A&B and a Backup.

A&B can be any primary, melee or pistol (both single and ak/twin). Tapping the weapon swap button circles between these two.

Backup can only be single pistols, they are equiped by holding the weapon swap button (much like melee does now) and are automatically equiped when you enter Bleeding state.

This way you can equip any combination of weapons you want (a sniper/shotgun/pistol? melee/melee/pistol? akPistol/akPistol/Pistol? anything goes!) and aside from mod sharing it shouldn't generate any problem.

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

5 hours ago, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

The idea needs to be expanding on the gameplay in relation to Stealth. And I think Finishers could use tweaks and updates. There are multiple ways to expand in this.

One method would be to add a tab under Abilities for the Warframe, could be labeled Finisher. And here you can keep the default melee or be able to choose a method. So ideas here can be options for Ash to use his hidden blades, Excal could use his exalted Skana, use your Sheev, bare hands and so on. It does not have to be limited to melee weapons.

That way if you want to rock the Fragor P and hate the finisher it deals and you are running a frame like Ash or Wukong you could choose to have a unique manner to execute Finishers. And so to achieve this how finishers activate could be adjusted some as necessary.

 

Warframe isn't assassin's creed.... or SoM. This is just making changes to the system because of what? Tweak finisher into with what changes? If you provide how  it can be changed then fine I will consider it. But changing the method of doing finisher because your prime melee weapon isn't doing enough finisher damage isn't going to cut it. Fact is, it is limited to your melee weapon. But Ash being able to use his hidden blades is a nice idea, a simple way would to just add it under his passive as any finisher initiated with ash he will use his hidden blades instead of the melee weapon.  But the same cannot be said for any frame that has weapons as ults. 

 

5 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Well, what about this. A new Loadout system (kinda):

You can carry 3 weapons, A&B and a Backup.

A&B can be any primary, melee or pistol (both single and ak/twin). Tapping the weapon swap button circles between these two.

Backup can only be single pistols, they are equiped by holding the weapon swap button (much like melee does now) and are automatically equiped when you enter Bleeding state.

This way you can equip any combination of weapons you want (a sniper/shotgun/pistol? melee/melee/pistol? akPistol/akPistol/Pistol? anything goes!) and aside from mod sharing it shouldn't generate any problem.

A change to a system that's already fine the way it is is unneeded.  And again problems with the mod system alone prevents that from being able to implement along with being able to have two different weapons (Primary/Primary, melee/melee) of the same category which goes against the primary, secondary and melee system warframe is built upon. It's hardly a new loadout system but a change to the core combat system itself.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

45 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

Warframe isn't assassin's creed.... or SoM. This is just making changes to the system because of what? Tweak finisher into with what changes? If you provide how  it can be changed then fine I will consider it. But changing the method of doing finisher because your prime melee weapon isn't doing enough finisher damage isn't going to cut it. Fact is, it is limited to your melee weapon. But Ash being able to use his hidden blades is a nice idea, a simple way would to just add it under his passive as any finisher initiated with ash he will use his hidden blades instead of the melee weapon.  But the same cannot be said for any frame that has weapons as ults. 

 

A change to a system that's already fine the way it is is unneeded.  And again problems with the mod system alone prevents that from being able to implement along with being able to have two different weapons (Primary/Primary, melee/melee) of the same category which goes against the primary, secondary and melee system warframe is built upon. It's hardly a new loadout system but a change to the core combat system itself.

I havnt had the time to really make changes to my original post or defend the idea, but let me say that you keep saying the system is fine as is. Is it fine as is that a dagger and a sword together would work as a dual sword instead of having its own stance because someone simply hasnt made that stance yet? What is it exactly that makes the melee system fine as is? Im not wanting it to change into another game. What would you do to make it work for you?

[o.0-]

1 hour ago, ShadowExodus said:

Warframe isn't assassin's creed.... or SoM. This is just making changes to the system because of what? Tweak finisher into with what changes? If you provide how  it can be changed then fine I will consider it. But changing the method of doing finisher because your prime melee weapon isn't doing enough finisher damage isn't going to cut it. Fact is, it is limited to your melee weapon. But Ash being able to use his hidden blades is a nice idea, a simple way would to just add it under his passive as any finisher initiated with ash he will use his hidden blades instead of the melee weapon.  But the same cannot be said for any frame that has weapons as ults.

Right now different weapon groups have different Finisher modifiers. Hammers currently get the largest bonus at 2400%. Daggers, polearms and staves are at 1200% and the rest sit at 1600%. So there can be times that a Finisher will not deal enough to an Eximus unit, leaving it with a sliver of health. If such situations are intended then no change is necessary. If such incidents are unintended, then there can be tweaks made to overcome them.

The next thing is the devs have already worked on Melee holsters and you can purchase idle stances from one Frame and be able to use it on your others. So being able to choose the animation that plays with Finishers is simply allowing players to choose from various options that the devs can provide and charge for. All I'd want would be able to use a dagger finisher over say the Ninkondi's choke finisher, for example.

 

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

Quote

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

I havnt had the time to really make changes to my original post or defend the idea, but let me say that you keep saying the system is fine as is. Is it fine as is that a dagger and a sword together would work as a dual sword instead of having its own stance because someone simply hasnt made that stance yet? What is it exactly that makes the melee system fine as is? Im not wanting it to change into another game. What would you do to make it work for you?

4

Dagger and a sword do have their own stances, put them together and DE will put them as a dual stance, no way around it since they created a melee system unique to warframe that coincides with the other systems that they built. You came in on the console version so let me say something. I'm sure it's obvious that stances haven't been the first thing to come out to warframe, but for players who has been in warframe from since the times of grineer shielding, parkour 1.0 and zora coptering, they will look at your post and see the flaws quite easily. Melee 1.0 was all about quick melee and charge attacks, there was no switching to full melee, actually melee would be considered a second rate mechanic back then. But what did 2.0 introduced? Stances/combo counters/counterattack finishers/, a complete buff to melee, to utilize the full strength of a stance you have to switch to it, that's the idea no way around it, no way to change it and will be a power creep if we have access to the stance at all times now wouldn't. For example, stances boost the damage output of melee considerably ( Crimson dervish's Crimson orbit boost the damage multiplier to 300%) and there are stances that force status effects procs when you do a certain combo. So yeah switching to melee is a trade-off than able to pull out combos and instantly snipe an enemy in the head with no drawbacks is overpowered in of itself. Then you suggest having melee as secondaries? What's the point? What works for other games, works for those games.    

 I can stay here and continue saying why it won't work as it doesn't make sense to me or you can answer the questions that I have asked and tell me how can it be implemented. Your whole idea of the melee system was flawed the moment the mod system comes into the play. So again what advantage does having a secondary melee has in carrying it with a prime melee? What mods will be used for them? Mod sharing is not a thing just because you cannot use the same mod on two weapons at the same time. Refer to my previous posts for the other questions. 

3 hours ago, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

Right now different weapon groups have different Finisher modifiers. Hammers currently get the largest bonus at 2400%. Daggers, polearms and staves are at 1200% and the rest sit at 1600%. So there can be times that a Finisher will not deal enough to an Eximus unit, leaving it with a sliver of health. If such situations are intended then no change is necessary. If such incidents are unintended, then there can be tweaks made to overcome them.

The next thing is the devs have already worked on Melee holsters and you can purchase idle stances from one Frame and be able to use it on your others. So being able to choose the animation that plays with Finishers is simply allowing players to choose from various options that the devs can provide and charge for. All I'd want would be able to use a dagger finisher over say the Ninkondi's choke finisher, for example.

 

It is intended. You cannot expect to have so many weapons on the same base modifier and not see it as intended. 

Melee holsters and Finisher animations are completely different. Same goes for idle poses. Do you really not see the flaw in this? Using a dagger finisher animation with a hammer, dual sword finisher animation with a one-handed sword. Finisher animations are not cosmetic, they are set in stone for the different weapon types.

Edited October 14, 2017 by ShadowExodus

[o.0-]

1 hour ago, ShadowExodus said:

It is intended. You cannot expect to have so many weapons on the same base modifier and not see it as intended. 

Melee holsters and Finisher animations are completely different. Same goes for idle poses. Do you really not see the flaw in this? Using a dagger finisher animation with a hammer, dual sword finisher animation with a one-handed sword. Finisher animations are not cosmetic, they are set in stone for the different weapon types.

Hold on, the question should be how should Finishers work?

If the intention is for the ability to enter a custom animation that executes the target. Then that is what should be designed for.

As we can see with mods like Shattering Impact, that the devs are able to adjust how systems interact and can add nuances to existing systems as they have been and can be seen in reading patch notes and so on.

So one tweak to Finishers that might work, would be applying the finisher damage to the base health of the target, ignoring any other potential eHP. And with such a change, it can possibly simplify how things work under the hood (devs once mentioned having to make changes on Chroma's Vex Armor and I think there are other examples in the patch notes in other areas), since now there would be a new set of conditions to deal such damage and run the special animations.

 

As for the idea I'm bringing up. Why would you imagine using an animation for a dagger with a warhammer? There would be two melee weapons that would be carried into battle.

Maybe I am not explaining myself properly, so to restate, I'd carry into battle my trusty Ninkondi to lay down a smack down on the enemies (melee and quick melee). With the idea, I'd have my Karyst say strapped to my right leg, so when I sneak up on an un-alerted enemy, striking a sleeping, stunned, blind and any other I'm forgetting, I'd instead pull out my dagger to strike the killing blow.

And so if I take Ash, like how Mortos Binds are limited to Nekros, I could choose to use my hidden blades when executing a finisher. Also there can be other items that could be implemented with the custom finisher animations, such as using a warframe's bare hands on an enemy, jamming an arrow into an enemy, and so on.

Edited October 14, 2017 by SPARTAN-187.Thanatos
typos

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

1 hour ago, ShadowExodus said:

Dagger and a sword do have their own stances, put them together and DE will put them as a dual stance, no way around it since they created a melee system unique to warframe that coincides with the other systems that they built. You came in on the console version so let me say something. I'm sure it's obvious that stances haven't been the first thing to come out to warframe, but for players who has been in warframe from since the times of grineer shielding, parkour 1.0 and zora coptering, they will look at your post and see the flaws quite easily. Melee 1.0 was all about quick melee and charge attacks, there was no switching to full melee, actually melee would be considered a second rate mechanic back then. But what did 2.0 introduced? Stances/combo counters/counterattack finishers/, a complete buff to melee, to utilize the full strength of a stance you have to switch to it, that's the idea no way around it, no way to change it and will be a power creep if we have access to the stance at all times now wouldn't. For example, stances boost the damage output of melee considerably ( Crimson dervish's Crimson orbit boost the damage multiplier to 300%) and there are stances that force status effects procs when you do a certain combo. So yeah switching to melee is a trade-off than able to pull out combos and instantly snipe an enemy in the head with no drawbacks is overpowered in of itself. Then you suggest having melee as secondaries? What's the point? What works for other games, works for those games.    

 I can stay here and continue saying why it won't work as it doesn't make sense to me or you can answer the questions that I have asked and tell me how can it be implemented. Your whole idea of the melee system was flawed the moment the mod system comes into the play. So again what advantage does having a secondary melee has in carrying it with a prime melee? What mods will be used for them? Mod sharing is not a thing just because you cannot use the same mod on two weapons at the same time. Refer to my previous posts for the other questions. 

It is intended. You cannot expect to have so many weapons on the same base modifier and not see it as intended. 

Melee holsters and Finisher animations are completely different. Same goes for idle poses. Do you really not see the flaw in this? Using a dagger finisher animation with a hammer, dual sword finisher animation with a one-handed sword. Finisher animations are not cosmetic, they are set in stone for the different weapon types.

Theres nothing stopping them for developing a new stamce. Nothing. Yeah, i dont have high hopes, DE doesnt have the best track record, but its not impossible.

Also, the ps4 was released in 2013, and i got it in 2013. Warframe was one of only about 5 games available and it was free. I was just too broke to spend any money on it, so of course i downloaded it, but no founder tag for me. I understand the system, the changes released so far, and feel it is far from finished or fine as is. 

Ill redo my idea and get back to you then. Thank you for your time.

Edited October 14, 2017 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edit

[(PSN)NicolaiBM]

On October 13, 2017 at 3:04 AM, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

It doesnt answer, im sorry i dont see it. While being able to use throwables and pistols simulataneously helps make throwable weapons relevant, i dont see how that is an answer for daggers, or machetes...because it hasnt happened for them yet.

Is channeling high reward? Thats another point youve brought up that i really dont see, please if you would, go into detail for that, it would help the conversation. If it relies on the operators energy, then it drains and has to be recharged before its available again. Thats the limitation. I dont care for melee damage being buffed, but the mechanics of how things operate.

You have to be tanky to be able to melee, but not every frame expected to melee is tanky. The high survivability that would come with running through a bullet storm with a sword would be blocking and parrying. And weapons of mass destruction like ogris missiles would have to have a way to be dealt with. 

Its the strongest weapon class we have if you have those mods. Instead of making the mechanics of how melee works in warframe better, they simply tried to make the situation better with mods. Sure, the combo counter is a thing now too...but i still say melee is in a sorry state, just as it was without those mods. Naramon is cheating. Always has been and always will be for as long as its available in its current iteration.

When it comes to throwable melee, they're already more relevant than for example mk1-furis or lato, as for daggers, well they're ment to be used differently than a throwable melee, which is why mods like Covert Lethality exists. Machetes are at the same place as a lot of thise other poop tier weapons in the game, just bad luck for that particular weapon, doesn't mean melee is treated like it's worth less, it just have the same imbalance as primaries and secondaries have.

The high reward for channeling is the added damage, the high risk goes in the energy drain, abuse it and you've killed a lot faster, but now you're out of energy. It's not a mechanic you're supposed to be using all the time, it's a mechanic you're supposed to implement when fighting the heavy units for a faction. I know it's being simplyfied like that, but you should be able to get the idea.

I'm not sure which frames you expect to melee that isn't tanky and if you're talking about level 30 or 300, but the tactics you have to use between them is vastly different. Going high level, it's not enough just to slap on a melee and go on a frenzy, like Valkyr used to be able to do with her Hysteria. Not sure if it's that part you're upset about? None the less, tankyness comes from both health/armor, but also abilities, for example trinity with the right % of strength is able to give herself 2x75% reduction to incoming damage, Mesa is able to give herself 95% reduction to incoming damage from projectiles and so on, other frames inherently low on health and armor, because their usage is different, for example Loki and his invisibility is where he gets his survivability, same with Ivara, while Nyx gers her survivability from the Assimilate augment, Titania gets her from the enemies having less accuracy towards her and her small companions in Razorwing.

If you want to argue about the mods and not using them, well if you do not use the strong mods in the game, it's not the game limiting your melee, it's yourself. I could sit here and basically cry about how melee is broken strong and my primary and secondary gets treated like a trashcan for mods, while choosing not to use the strong mods. If you want to have primary and melee at the same level and treated the same, you have to completely change how melee works or primary works and I don't think melee would win out on that one. Melee combo have always been a thing, only the most skillfull players have been able to hold their combo counter and keep it going, with the introduction of the combo mods, now people with no tactical understanding can do the same. Before you had to keep 1 guy alive to wack on until more enemies showed up, pasing your killing. With the arrival of dynamic mods, melee becomes stronger and stronger, the longer you keep your counter up and going. While I do think it's a bandaid, it's still an effective one, making primaries and secondaries weak in comparison.

If you don't want to use the weapons and mods thats strong, may I suggestion sticking with 30 min survival runs on Venus or going in low level fissures with a WoF Ember or Soundquake Banshee (I'm thinking here's a real argument for press 4 to win that needs a touchup).

[EinheriarJudith]

naramon got the one change to combo counter that SHOULD have been the base mechanic to melee. combos need to be more streamline like tempo royale, crushing ruin, etc. eee pause eeeee (needs to go) eee hold+e eeeee (needs to go) and any of these variations. the hit box issue has been one for a long time. something smaller than you or on different elevation will pop you up into the air rather than being killed or damaged its pretty annoying.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

9 hours ago, (PS4)NicolaiBM said:

When it comes to throwable melee, they're already more relevant than for example mk1-furis or lato, as for daggers, well they're ment to be used differently than a throwable melee, which is why mods like Covert Lethality exists. Machetes are at the same place as a lot of thise other poop tier weapons in the game, just bad luck for that particular weapon, doesn't mean melee is treated like it's worth less, it just have the same imbalance as primaries and secondaries have.

The high reward for channeling is the added damage, the high risk goes in the energy drain, abuse it and you've killed a lot faster, but now you're out of energy. It's not a mechanic you're supposed to be using all the time, it's a mechanic you're supposed to implement when fighting the heavy units for a faction. I know it's being simplyfied like that, but you should be able to get the idea.

I'm not sure which frames you expect to melee that isn't tanky and if you're talking about level 30 or 300, but the tactics you have to use between them is vastly different. Going high level, it's not enough just to slap on a melee and go on a frenzy, like Valkyr used to be able to do with her Hysteria. Not sure if it's that part you're upset about? None the less, tankyness comes from both health/armor, but also abilities, for example trinity with the right % of strength is able to give herself 2x75% reduction to incoming damage, Mesa is able to give herself 95% reduction to incoming damage from projectiles and so on, other frames inherently low on health and armor, because their usage is different, for example Loki and his invisibility is where he gets his survivability, same with Ivara, while Nyx gers her survivability from the Assimilate augment, Titania gets her from the enemies having less accuracy towards her and her small companions in Razorwing.

If you want to argue about the mods and not using them, well if you do not use the strong mods in the game, it's not the game limiting your melee, it's yourself. I could sit here and basically cry about how melee is broken strong and my primary and secondary gets treated like a trashcan for mods, while choosing not to use the strong mods. If you want to have primary and melee at the same level and treated the same, you have to completely change how melee works or primary works and I don't think melee would win out on that one. Melee combo have always been a thing, only the most skillfull players have been able to hold their combo counter and keep it going, with the introduction of the combo mods, now people with no tactical understanding can do the same. Before you had to keep 1 guy alive to wack on until more enemies showed up, pasing your killing. With the arrival of dynamic mods, melee becomes stronger and stronger, the longer you keep your counter up and going. While I do think it's a bandaid, it's still an effective one, making primaries and secondaries weak in comparison.

If you don't want to use the weapons and mods thats strong, may I suggestion sticking with 30 min survival runs on Venus or going in low level fissures with a WoF Ember or Soundquake Banshee (I'm thinking here's a real argument for press 4 to win that needs a touchup).

Im currently in the process of rewriting this posts, its just taking some time. Iv been responding to shadow and decided to go about the idea differently. Not sure what good itll do, but my response to this ---> yea.

Everything you have stated is how the game currently works. Im suggesting changes to it. Your re-explaining things i already know as if that is the basis for why my post should not exist. I appreciate the response. The idea is not to say that daggers suck or that machetes suck, as they do have their own place in the game, but they are very much niche weapons. Youve said this yourself, though using the term trash tier.

Instead of melee being specifically viable through certain frames, i want it to be available to every frame. I think what ill be posting in a few days will sound more reasonable. 

[(PSN)NicolaiBM]

On October 22, 2017 at 1:54 AM, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Im currently in the process of rewriting this posts, its just taking some time. Iv been responding to shadow and decided to go about the idea differently. Not sure what good itll do, but my response to this ---> yea.

Everything you have stated is how the game currently works. Im suggesting changes to it. Your re-explaining things i already know as if that is the basis for why my post should not exist. I appreciate the response. The idea is not to say that daggers suck or that machetes suck, as they do have their own place in the game, but they are very much niche weapons. Youve said this yourself, though using the term trash tier.

Instead of melee being specifically viable through certain frames, i want it to be available to every frame. I think what ill be posting in a few days will sound more reasonable. 

You've got to think realisticly about it then. If you make all warframes melee based, then where's the difference in frames? Personally I love Mesa and Nova, they're my go to frames, but as melee frames they're horrible. Mesa is an absolute tank, just not when getting hit by melee based enemies, they flat out make a joke of her. Melee and Mesa is so far apart, that Mesa even gains health from dropping her melee weapon completely, and I wouldn't want any changes done to her, because her character is a bit of a wild west gunslinging sherrif space ninja. To stay alive on her, you need to embrase her strong sides and avoid her weak side, just like any frame, they challenge your playstyle and they challenge you to try out new things, try out new tactics and go about your mission differently. Personally I believe that to make players in to better players, for having a better understanding of game mechanics and knowing more tactics, I believe it to be a good thing, that some frames are truly horrible at one thing, but absolutely fantastic at another. Take Valkyr, she's a melee madhouse of a frame, but wouldn't want to try and cc anything with her. I belive the diversity in frames is good, because you cannot just stick to hack and slash or run and gun for everything, each mission have it's own unique challenges and some frames will naturally do better than others in some scenarios and worse in others. In my opinion, for what that's worth, I see it like this: I wouldn't want to take a Ferrari offroad and I wouldn't want to take a Land Cruiser to the race track. I wouldn't use my calculator as a dictionary and I wouldn't bring a dictionary to a math test.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

17 hours ago, (PS4)NicolaiBM said:

You've got to think realisticly about it then. If you make all warframes melee based, then where's the difference in frames? Personally I love Mesa and Nova, they're my go to frames, but as melee frames they're horrible. Mesa is an absolute tank, just not when getting hit by melee based enemies, they flat out make a joke of her. Melee and Mesa is so far apart, that Mesa even gains health from dropping her melee weapon completely, and I wouldn't want any changes done to her, because her character is a bit of a wild west gunslinging sherrif space ninja. To stay alive on her, you need to embrase her strong sides and avoid her weak side, just like any frame, they challenge your playstyle and they challenge you to try out new things, try out new tactics and go about your mission differently. Personally I believe that to make players in to better players, for having a better understanding of game mechanics and knowing more tactics, I believe it to be a good thing, that some frames are truly horrible at one thing, but absolutely fantastic at another. Take Valkyr, she's a melee madhouse of a frame, but wouldn't want to try and cc anything with her. I belive the diversity in frames is good, because you cannot just stick to hack and slash or run and gun for everything, each mission have it's own unique challenges and some frames will naturally do better than others in some scenarios and worse in others. In my opinion, for what that's worth, I see it like this: I wouldn't want to take a Ferrari offroad and I wouldn't want to take a Land Cruiser to the race track. I wouldn't use my calculator as a dictionary and I wouldn't bring a dictionary to a math test.

I know i said a while ago i was rewriting this...dont worry, still am. But i did rush this post out and confused alot of people. That said, i am not sure what in my post made you think the frames themselves would be changed. I want melee to less gimmicky, reliant on ehp, but that aside, im confused reading this. The only way i can see you think im talking about frames being changed is if your saying better melee means frames wont have to rely on their powers or ehp as much to use it....