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Abilities scaling with melee mods should be standard.


Rekkou
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So Gara's 1 has melee mods scaling despite not being a melee based warframe like Excalibur, Valkyr or Wukong. And her 4 has synergy with her 1 that made it scales with melee mods as well.  It's not really fair if new warframe can simply have scaling damage while older warframes have to make do with utility, CC and other means of pseudo scaling.

I think it should be a standard that anything with health should scale with health and armor mods. While anything with damage should scale with melee mods/ weapon mods depending on the abilities.

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Yeah, no. We have power strength for damage scaling. You wanna fix the problem? Fix enemy armor/health scaling. But if DE refuses to rework a single algorithm for determining armor/health net per level, then why would they go through all the trouble of coding a multitude of new mechanics to compensate for WF ability scaling?

Your suggestion makes absolutely no sense.

11 hours ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Agreed. Wukong's Cloud Walker for example could really do with a mechanic similar to Hydroid's puddle...scaling damage. 

And this is just silly. Cloud Walker isn't designed to be a damage ability. Undertow is/was. Why would Cloud Walker need damage scaling when its intended function is stealth/invulnerability/mobility/and CC stun? That's like say Harrow's Thurible should get scaling damage because... No reason.

Edited by (XB1)Vile Slanders
Grammer Nazi avoiding hypocrisy
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33 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Vile Slanders said:

Yeah, no. We have power strength for damage scaling. You wanna fix the problem? Fix enemy armor/health scaling. But if DE refuses to rework a single algorithm for determining armor/health net per level, then why would they go through all the trouble of coding a multitude of new mechanics to compensate for WF ability scaling?

Your suggestion makes absolutely no sense.

Changing enemies armor won't change the fact that abilities damage scaling isn't at all on par with weapons and melee. The way they scale simply isn't consistent. Maximum power strength only increase your damage like 200% and it will gimp your energy cost badly. While weapon mods can easily boost your damage by more than 1000%.

And again with Gara DE have implemented this. Not implementing it to other warframes only adds even more inconsistency.

 

 

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8 hours ago, (Xbox One)Vile Slanders said:

 

And this is just silly. Cloud Walker isn't designed to be a damage ability. Undertow is/was. Why would Cloud Walker need damage scaling when its intended function is stealth/invulnerability/mobility/and CC stun? That's like say Harrow's Thurible should get scaling damage because... No reason.

It's not silly...because as it stands, Wukong has no damage ability that allows him to keep up with armor scaling in game. The ridiculously short stun barely allows you to cheese stuff with a CL dagger at higher levels. 

The fact that undertow was designed to be a damage ability doesn't mean others like cloud walker can't be changed. 

The whole reason to give him scaling damage is that compared to most new frames, he simply falls off too quickly. While frames like Nidus & Hydroid who've benefited from recent reworks can keep up at higher levels, Wukong can't. 

Not even gonna comment on your "we already have power strength allowing you to scale" remark because that's obvious BS given it doesn't make up for enemy scaling. 

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Wait, Gara's not a melee-based frame?  With decent Armor, a melee-range sweep attack, a DR buff that deals close-range damage, an aggro dropper, an invuln-empowered radial CC move that literally creates an arena for herself, and a passive that opens up melee finishers, she's not designed with melee in mind?

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19 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Wait, Gara's not a melee-based frame?  With decent Armor, a melee-range sweep attack, a DR buff that deals close-range damage, an aggro dropper, an invuln-empowered radial CC move that literally creates an arena for herself, and a passive that opens up melee finishers, she's not designed with melee in mind?

It's more like she was designed to exploit melee mechanics rather than designed to be melee warframe. Same case with Oberon, majority of his abilities causes radiation. It's not because he was designed to be radiation frame, it's simply because radiation provides easy CC.

Let's not forget the amount of warframes that are able to reduce armor, it's not because those warframes are meant to be support debuffer, it's just DE's way to band aid the armor scaling.

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6 hours ago, Rekkou said:

It's more like she was designed to exploit melee mechanics rather than designed to be melee warframe.

First of all, what does "exploit melee mechanics" mean?

And second, how is she not designed for melee when literally all of her abilities, passive included, benefit melee play in some way, shape or form? Just because she doesn't have an ability that gives her an exhalted weapon? With the right build, I can in most situations play Ember, Volt, Equinox and Trinity as melee frames. Warframes are not hard-locked to classes and specialties like other MMO characters; if you can make something work melee in the content you're playing it in, then that frame is melee viable. And given that everything Gara does either supports or encourages playing melee, in my mind she's a melee frame. I'm sure she can do other things to, but I even see her as primarily a melee Warframe.

Onto the rest of your Original Post topic, I think that in fairness every frame should have at least something that can scale. Having that something be a scaling based on melee mods across the board feels arbitrary, though. For example, I don't really see Nova as a melee Warframe, so having an ability of hers scale from melee mods doesn't make sense to me. (Though she already has some soft scaling thanks to the DM from MPrime, and the scaling from Antimatter Drop and its augment.) If it's a melee strike, then yes, absolutely.

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12 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

 

Blinding->Finisher, is basically an easy way to do high damage. Melee based 1 and exalted weapon is the only ability that can scale with melee mods, giving her gun or bows will be more out of place, so pseudo melee is the easier pick. 

Because you can tell just by her looks, that she's a caster warframe. Her 1 is basically just 2 different type of targeting and her 4 synergy with 1 is basically an AoE radial damage. Her being designed around melee is just a work around to make her damage more viable. The same can be done to pretty much other warframe, like Soul Punch can be a literal punch with increased range, Volt's Shock name can be changed to Electric Whip, Fire ball to Fire Spear, Fire Blast to Fire Slam, etc.

Abilities scaling with melee mods is just the easier way for more consistency. If DE plan to make separate moding just for abilities scaling, that'll be better. But i doubt they will do that.

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12 hours ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

It's not silly...because as it stands, Wukong has no damage ability that allows him to keep up with armor scaling in game. The ridiculously short stun barely allows you to cheese stuff with a CL dagger at higher levels. 

The fact that undertow was designed to be a damage ability doesn't mean others like cloud walker can't be changed. 

The whole reason to give him scaling damage is that compared to most new frames, he simply falls off too quickly. While frames like Nidus & Hydroid who've benefited from recent reworks can keep up at higher levels, Wukong can't. 

Not even gonna comment on your "we already have power strength allowing you to scale" remark because that's obvious BS given it doesn't make up for enemy scaling. 

Oh yeah, because playing as a puddle wasn't exciting enough. Also, wrong. Wukong can scale with enemy levels. It's called Primal Fury, and if you build it right, then Wukong can perform exceptionally well in late-game with 4x Corrosive Projection. Which brings me back to my original point: Recalculate Enemy Armor Scaling Values. Which from a DEV perspective, is a WHOLE lot more feasible than altering/adding and testing a couple thousand lines of pre-existing codes.

 

And on a final note: 2 of Wukong's abilities scale off of melee mods. If Wukong fails to scale in late game even though he implements melee mod scaling, then this thread's argument is moot; and the age-old problem remains: Enemy Armor Scaling.

 

Would it bother you to think about your argument before posting, or are you just a creature of impulse?

Edited by (XB1)Vile Slanders
Grammer Nazi avoiding hypocrisy
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20 hours ago, Rekkou said:

Changing enemies armor won't change the fact that abilities damage scaling isn't at all on par with weapons and melee. The way they scale simply isn't consistent. Maximum power strength only increase your damage like 200% and it will gimp your energy cost badly. While weapon mods can easily boost your damage by more than 1000%.

And again with Gara DE have implemented this. Not implementing it to other warframes only adds even more inconsistency.

 

 

Pretty sure DE regrets letting weapon damage get as far out of hand as it has; seeing as for Damage 3.0, they were seriously discussing the possibility of removing multishot altogether.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Damage 3.0 rectifies the inconsistency between Weapon and Ability damage by nerfing weapon damage. I'd also hope to see shield mechanics getting buffed for both enemies and players, and armor getting nerfed in a polar fashion.

Gara's 1st scales with melee mods. So does Excalibur's 1st, Atlas's 1st, and Wukong's 1st. Of the four honorable mention, only Atlas has a dedicated build for his 1st, and that's entirely because Atlas's other 3 abilities are flat out terrible. I don't see people running Iron Jab Wukongs, or Slash Dash Excals, because both of those frames have better options for ability damage.

 

As the current meta stands, status is king, because status ignores/counteracts enemy scaling. Whether it's Slash's finisher damage procs attacking health directly, Viral reducing total health by 50%, or Corrosive stripping armor: status rules the end game.

 

Whether Damage 3.0 addresses this endgame limitation remains to be seen, but adding more power-scaling options to the current meta is not a resolution to the dilemma at hand.

All in all, a re-scaling effort of that magnitude would only generate a powercreep that would put the current meta's powercreep to shame. Imagine Volt's Discharge with the raw power of a Tigris Prime. Remember Ash's Blade Storm before it was re-worked? I don't miss the days of BS Ash instantly killing all the fun in the game, and I would hate to see it return.

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21 hours ago, (Xbox One)Vile Slanders said:

.

And this is just silly. Cloud Walker isn't designed to be a damage ability. 

Nah fam, it is was designed to be a perma stunlock for everything in its range for its full durarion that was supposed to freeze his combo counter on use. It was designed to be a seperate Cc mode that would've allowed to extend the counter over waves, gaps or other kinds of enemy absence. It was designed to be top notch mobility too.

 

None of the things it was designed to do made it into the final cut anyways so how is change into something more usefull silly?

Edited by (PS4)CoolD2108
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1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Nah fam, it is was designed to be a perma stunlock for everything in its range for its full durarion that was supposed to freeze his combo counter on use. It was designed to be a seperate Cc mode that would've allowed to extend the counter over waves, gaps or other kinds of enemy absence. It was designed to be top notch mobility too.

 

None of the things it was designed to do made it into the final cut anyways so how is change into something more usefull silly?

...Because no other skill in the game gives you invincibility, invisibility, unrestricted mobility, AND CC on decast?

I don't see how Cloud Walker isn't useful. I use it for stealth missions, reviving teammates, AFK trolling, and also for decasting/recasting Defy. Just pop the cloud, decast defy, decast the cloud, stun a mob, re-cast defy, and use a finisher to get back into the game.

Not every ability has to be damage focused. I'm fine with situational abilities, so long as the situations are feasible.

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4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Vile Slanders said:

...Because no other skill in the game gives you invincibility, invisibility, unrestricted mobility, AND CC on decast?

 

Limbos frickin passive and valkyrs hysteria do without putting you out of the game. It's current use is a shadow of what it was supposed to be...The worst thing is that the part with the combo and mobility were even voted for its augument seperately as part of a design council election later on. A long time has passed since then...

It's far from beein worth defending as it is. There's a lot of people playing wukong but definitly not for Cloud walker. This ability, his first and primal fury need a serious look at.

Edited by (PS4)CoolD2108
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9 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Limbos frickin passive and valkyrs hysteria do without putting you out of the game.

Not really comparable. Hysteria is a 4th ability focused on Tanking and Damage which loses power efficiency with prolonged use. Limbo's passive is invulnerability, and without the synergy of his 1st or 4th, it DOES remove him from the game. Also, when using the 1st or 4th in synergy with his passive, Limbo LOSES his invulnerability.

Wukong already has tanking and offense in Defy/Primal Fury. Cloud Walker further diversifies his applications with stealth/flight. I'm a little mystified that people would expect DE to buff such a powerful frame with a frankly BS mechanic that Hydroid pioneered.

Edited by (XB1)Vile Slanders
Forgot to mention something valid
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24 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Vile Slanders said:

.

Read the edit. Phone is screwing around.

 

And while they don't grant invisibility, the do grant invulnerability on command while invisibility abilitys itself grant more or less invulnerability too as you really don't get that much damage when enemys can't target you, aside from a controlled portion you're able to use (especially favorable for ash who has the basestats and kit to do so)

Cloud walker has a massive restriction while it indeed combines both but prevents you from using it for anything but invulnerabilitys sake, what kinda kills it in its own way. Especially as he's more or less unkillable in the first place and thus doesn't even need it, or at least the one aspect it DID get that much...

Edited by (PS4)CoolD2108
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Yes, nobody builds for Cloud Walker, BUT the same is true for 70% of the WF abilities in the game. The reason is, either the abilities are terrible compared to other abilities (like most classic warframe 1sts) or the abilities are treated like additional features. My Defy Wukong build technically qualifies as a Cloud Walker build, courtesy of his insane duration and power efficiency. The stealth applications of my Defy build wasn't intentional, it's just an additional capability of the build.

 

I know that most of the new Warframes being released and reworked have uses for all of their skills. Either from synergies, or scaling damage, or just application-wise, just about everything from Inaros on has had universal utility between all of its 4 abilities.

These frames are built for the current meta, while older frames like Ember, Rhino, Mag, and Volt were built for an older meta.

Rewriting the current meta is the only way to balance out the field. For that, a slew of old frames need reworks, weapon damage needs to be reconfigured, and enemy scaling needs to be completely dismantled and built anew.

Making abilities blatant ripoffs of pre-existing abilities isn't going to balance the meta out; if anything, it'll just make WF that much more boring by making every WF perform EXACTLY the same.

And lamenting what something could've been has never gotten us what was originally drafted. Remember how Titania's 1st, 2nd, and 3rd weren't supposed to cost any energy while Razorwing was active? Whatever happened to that concept?

Throwing pennies into the wishing well has never worked with DE. The DEVS are gonna do what they're gonna do, in questionable judgement with occasionally glorious results, and the best we can do is suggest potential changes within reason.

...Turning Cloudwalker into Undertow isn't reasonable from any angle you approach it from. Locking the Combo bar? I'm fully in support of that. Making it so CC'd enemies pass on their stun duration to other enemies after death? Yeah, that would make Cloudwalker stand out in the CC department.

But turning Cloudwalker into Undertow? Come on, people...

...How much more boring can you get?

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I would like to offer the counterpoint that of the three weapon types in the game, melee is the most likely to have nonstandard mods that do not directly enhance firepower, such as blood rush and maiming strike.

If you make Gara scale with melee mods, that means, as far as I can tell, you necessarily sacrifice potential melee effectiveness to empower shattered lash.

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36 minutes ago, Ventura_Highway said:

I would like to offer the counterpoint that of the three weapon types in the game, melee is the most likely to have nonstandard mods that do not directly enhance firepower, such as blood rush and maiming strike.

If you make Gara scale with melee mods, that means, as far as I can tell, you necessarily sacrifice potential melee effectiveness to empower shattered lash.

Same goes with guns because you can't calculate multi shots and punch through into abilities.

And i would argue that made it even better. Especially because caster and melee are the exact opposite. Want to deal good damage with abilities, then you have to sacrifice your melee. Want to be good at melee, then you have to sacrifice your abilities damage. Want to be good at both, then you need to balance it.

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8 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

Same goes with guns because you can't calculate multi shots and punch through into abilities.

And i would argue that made it even better. Especially because caster and melee are the exact opposite. Want to deal good damage with abilities, then you have to sacrifice your melee. Want to be good at melee, then you have to sacrifice your abilities damage. Want to be good at both, then you need to balance it.

I believe for multishot you could simply multiply the ability's damage by the current multishot factor. Could probably say the same for fire rate too, I imagine.

I would not say playing caster and playing melee are necessarily opposites. If you define a caster as a frame that uses a decent number of its abilities to inflict damage, does that not mean Ash is a caster? I don't play ash too often but I'd argue he is meant to be played at a close range to the enemy.

I think your argument regarding weapon-ability tradeoffs has some weight though.

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1 minute ago, Ventura_Highway said:

I believe for multishot you could simply multiply the ability's damage by the current multishot factor. Could probably say the same for fire rate too, I imagine.

I would not say playing caster and playing melee are necessarily opposites. If you define a caster as a frame that uses a decent number of its abilities to inflict damage, does that not mean Ash is a caster? I don't play ash too often but I'd argue he is meant to be played at a close range to the enemy.

I think your argument regarding weapon-ability tradeoffs has some weight though.

Those are too easily exploitable and possibly balance breaking. Because multishot works by chance and it's still affected by accuracy, it's not a flat out damage increase. Fire rate proportionally increase your bullet consumption, recoils and reduce your overall accuracy. None of those affect abilities. Because multishot and fire rate calculation in DPS is multiplicative. Adding Split Chamber and Vile acceleration alone can easily multiply your damage by 3.6. Also abilities still have power strength from warframe modding, if it takes every kind of mods from weapons into damage calculation on top of that it can still be boosted by power strength, that'll make abilities too powerful.

Even opposites can still be combined. My real point with caster X melee are no meant to separate or classify but to balances. The same still holds true for mobility x defense, guns x melee, etc. Whatever it is, for the sake of game balances, combining different things shouldn't result in something that is equally good at both.

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2 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

Because multishot works by chance and it's still affected by accuracy, it's not a flat out damage increase

Over a large number of individual shots, you will find that a 90% increase in multishot results in very close to 1.9x as many bullets. Maybe one day you will find that your rifle should have shot one more bullet to kill the bombard getting ready to fire at you, but overall, luck and fate are very negligible factors in the career performance of a rifle with multishot. I suppose your argument about fire rate is fair, though, but, one second.

I mean, it's just a little weird to compare weapons and nuke abilities and argue that between the two, restrictions should be placed on abilities, and not weapons for the sake of balancing between the two. Let's take fireball, I guess?

http://warframe-builder.com/Secondary_Weapons/Builder/Lex_prime/t_30_20000000_193-1-5-195-2-5-196-7-5-204-3-10-206-4-5-209-6-5-404-0-5-487-5-10_404-11-193-11-195-11-204-14-206-11-487-16-209-11-196-11/en/3-0-44

I think I stuck on every basic damage mod I could make work save crit mods, because abilities don't really crit, I don't think. So, we have this Lex Prime that's now gimped because I didn't/couldn't take advantage of crit. According to the numbers I stuck in (550 * 2.8 *2.5 * (2.7+1.65+1) * 3.05 * 1.45) or (Base damage + Multishot + Fire rate  + Elemental damage + damage boost + 45% ability strength. Running that through the calc I got around 91k damage? The lenz build I threw together without a riven only does 60k.

But, the thing about fireball is that it's technically 400 direct damage + 150 aoe, in a nonscaling 5 meter radius, so what's going to happen, I think, is that one guy is going to suffer that 90k, while the rest about him will take a much more negligible 25k, which I guess is not bad, but that Lenz is going to inflict it's 60k on everyone, and it runs on ammo instead of energy. If you want to get rid of multishot and fire rate mods, the fireball will do about 13k damage, I think.

The point is, is that in this matchup of weapons and damage powers, weapons need all the help they can get.

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9 minutes ago, Ventura_Highway said:

 

 

Not sure what your arguments there. My point is that abilities shouldn't scale with multishot mods or fire rate out of balance reason. And your calculation proves exactly that. And the balance i meant is proportionate strength and weakness. If you chose to specialize in abilities, weapons being weaker is a proportionate consequences and vice versa. So you're not exactly showing anything that can be argued to my point.

Seems like what you want is everything to be equally as powerful as possible. Trying to convey that your idea will make everything more equally powerful is irrelevant to me because I don't find it appealing when a class or character can just do everything equally good without differing strength or weakness.

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