Ogris(And Thunderbolt) Self Damage

[Callback]

There needs to be a bit of a rework on how Ogris self-damage works.  Currently the player is susceptible to 100% of the output based on proximity, the same as enemies.  This is a problem for several reasons.

 

The main reason is the classic PvE problem of inconsistency in numbers between players and enemies.  Enemies scale to much greater health than players ever could.  This is natural in all PvE games.  To compensate, players also end up dealing much greater damage than enemies.  The damage from each side scales well into the health of the other.  Players need to outfit their weapons with insane amounts of damage to deal with tougher and tougher enemies.  Now, here's where it becomes a problem.  Picture dueling in Borderlands games.  Once the duel starts, you can generally take out the opponent in a single shot, because your damage is so much higher than your health and shield.  The Ogris does the same thing.  If you hit yourself, even at the outer radius, you will flat out DIE.

 

Games with any sort of focus on dueling or a pvp aspect will always change the scaling to make it a more fair and interesting, longer fight between players.  Likewise, self damage is usually scaled to be appropriate.  In Borderlands, if you pop a rocket at your feet when surrounded, it won't insta kill you, you take reduced damage while blowing up all the skags swarming you.  You may lose 3/4 of your shield in the blast, but it's a worthwhile sacrifice to fully kill the surrounding mob.

 

Even in PvP games like TF2, self-damage from explosive weapons is generally lower than the damage to opponents., and that's in an environment without the inequality of damage to health PvE has.

 

The other issue is proximity.  Enemy movement around a map tends to be more spread out.  An AoE meant to hit a decent group of enemies would not leave nearly enough buffer when fired at close range.  A typical solution would be to also reduce the radius and increase the damage falloff for self damage.

 

Finally, there's the issue of allies.  I have long said bullets should pass through allies just like movement can, and it has never been more true than with the Ogris.  One ally steps through you from behind while you are firing and you die.  There is infinite troll potential if left in, and abuse potential if self damage were removed from ally-triggered blasts (tag team firing at each other point blank would be hilarious, tho).  The best solution is to disable all collision with allies, with rare exceptions like Vauban's tesla.

 

 

Self damage was the reason they nerfed Thunderbolt to not scale.  The better idea is to rework the system.  Here's the breakdown:

 

Reduce self-damage

Make it proportional.  If it takes 4 shots to take down a lv80 heavy gunner, it should take about that many to cut through an average frame, let's say 600 shield and health.  Damage would still scale up as you put more in, added danger for using ice etc, but not to insane amounts.

 

Reduce self-damage radius/ increase self-damage falloff

Keep the minimum range for ground targeted shots to avoid damage reasonable.

 

Disable ally collision on all guns

This is just annoying and doesn't contribute positively to gameplay at all, especially since you can MOVE through them already.

 

Fix Thunderbolt

It really needs to either scale or preserve the original arrow damage in addition to the blast.  It was changed because players were one-shotting themselves, but that still happens with ogris all the time.

 

 

 

Shooting yourself with Ogris should be annoying, inconvenient, damaging, and add a good amount of damage to what the enemies are already doing to you.  It should not be an instant death button, only discourage you from improperly using the weapon.  Please consider fixing self-damage for all weapons to a reasonable standard.

[Zareek]

I have no problem with my Ogris... As much as I understand the point of this thread, I just dont think its necessary. People just need to variate their usage of weapons and think before they pull the trigger, then there is no problem.

 

Thunderbolt however DOES need some work.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Zareek

[Quackerz]

I agree completely, one shotting yourself seems a bit unfair. I have never used the Ogris but I have used thunderbolt and i occasionally end up destroying my own shields if an enemy runs in front of me. Another problem with thunderbolt is inconsistancy, id happily have 100% explosion chance at max with a hefty damage reduction.

[Earz]

Why don't people understand the science of explosions?

[123Olympian]

Agreed, Ogris is a turn off for some I know just for that.

[Callback]

Why don't people understand the science of explosions?

Vs the science of that guy (enemy) living through 6 rockets to the face while I die instantly to one of them 10 feet away from me?

[ApocDream]

Ogris is ridiculously good; if it didn't have meaningful self damage it would be beyond broken.

[Dasmir]

Ogris is ridiculously good; if it didn't have meaningful self damage it would be beyond broken.

 

too bad is bugged as hell

[Earz]

Vs the science of that guy (enemy) living through 6 rockets to the face while I die instantly to one of them 10 feet away from me?

Stand 11 feet away then.

[Archistopheles]

With great power comes great responsibility.

[Callback]

Ogris is ridiculously good; if it didn't have meaningful self damage it would be beyond broken.

Meaningful, yes.  Meaningful doesn't mean you instantly die for any tiny mistake.  I'm saying to reduce it to a level that is meaningful, instead of ludicrous. 

Edited July 25, 2013 by Callback

[Dasmir]

Meaningful, yes.  Meaningful doesn't mean you instantly die for any tiny mistake.  I'm saying to reduce it to a level that is meaningful, instead of ludicrous. 

 

The most hilarous way to kill yourself with torid/ogris is when you shoot you own sentinel.....

 

Ogris: insta kill

Torid: You get a annoying fly draining you life

Edited July 25, 2013 by Dasmir

[taiiat]

as i'm sure everyone is saying in this thread (skipped to the bottom after reading OP) 'lrn to play scrub' 'stop shooting yourself', this is a fair statement.

 

you still shouldn't be shooting next to yourself, take enviornmental advantage such as range or height, and then use an explosive. but yes, based on other games, why not reduce the damage to yourself to 75%, or 60%. it's not major but i don't mind either. 

 

 

Ogris is ridiculously good; if it didn't have meaningful self damage it would be beyond broken.

implying it isn't as it is. in balance, and battle effectiveness. both it's balance(mostly just too much ammo) and direct impact damage are really skewy. 

Edited July 25, 2013 by taiiat

[Callback]

If ogris dealt only its base damage to you regardless of mods, it might be ok.  Multishot would be the only increased risk.