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What makes a boss bad..... or good.... use of invincibility...


Fractalisomega
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What makes a boss bad?

Invincibility phases.....

For the most part in the game everytime you encounter an enemy you can attack them at any time and deal damage. Total damage immunity shouldn't exist except for a few select cases.....

So.... lets talk about the bosses with Invincibility phases..

~~~Captain Vor.... IMO this boss actually did it right.... The battle is separated into sections where you can attack Vor and other phases where he shields himself for regenerate his Shield meter.... once the meter is full he drops his bubble and returns to the fight. The fight is well spaced but doesn't take too long.... it's just right for new and mid-game players. So... what could be changed to make this better for late game players? Maybe have it so that a certain number of the Grineer summoned to fight have to be slain before Vor drops the bubble once his shield is regenerated.

~~~Vay Hek.... This boss is... annoying.... his floaty movement is ok but combine that with very short windows which you can deal damage due to incinvibility and you can easily see why he is so tough.... in fact once he goes into his Terraframe form he actually becomes much easier to kill. To fix this I'd love to see him altered to have high armor and corrosion immunity but a large weakness to face shots.... this way the fight keeps moving forward but can take jumps forward with a well placed shot....

~~~ Sargus Ruk and Lech Kril.... both of these bosses suffer from permanent invincibility unless you shoot a certain area at a certain time.... similar to the change to Vay Hek I'd like these bosses to have massive armor except on their weak areas.... anything to keep the fight moving forward.... but more importantly I'd like to get some tips on what to do from Lotus herself in the mission.... if anyone remembers the first time they fought these bosses you had no clue (unless you cheated and read up on some wiki or watched a video) and more than likely it was your team that did most of the damage... not you....

~~~Kela De Thaym, Lephantis, and Tyl Regor..... all three of these bosses are fun to fight because even though they have invincibility phases they aren't abused like the other bosses mentioned here.... they space out the battle or are lifted so that they can attack you.... when they choose to fight you... you can strike back.

Edited by Fractalisomega
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Yeah! Why do they even bother with invincibility phases? 

*walks in*

*Fires 2 Tigris shots*

*boss dies*

It's so unfair! 

I don't know what you expect them to do if you can do up to and surpassing 50k damage per second besides cap it or make you wait for it. Tiny weakspots? Arca Plasmor. Tons of health? Tigris  and Dread. Interesting mechanics? Soma Prime. Unless there's a hard cap on how much damage you can do at once, bosses would be indistinguishable from your average Bombard. 

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9 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Unless there's a hard cap on how much damage you can do at once, bosses would be indistinguishable from your average Bombard. 

Numerous games actually do this, Kala and Vor do this by separating there hp into phases. Invincibility is the mark of a new phase/mechanic not the entire fight.

 

 Lech Kril and Vey Hek are notorious for this.

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if Kril, Ruk, & Vor had 99.9% damage reduction instead of complete immunity during these "invincible" phases it would feel infinitely better. I'd rather see 1's even if its really not doing anything meaningful than dance around doing nothing while the boss refuses to take any damage.  At least i'd feel like I was doing something.

EDIT to add: I agree with the OP on the use of invincibility on the other bosses.  I never feel like they are invincible even when they are as there is something to do and/or visible progress being made.

 

Edited by (XB1)Tucker D Dawg
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On 10/17/2017 at 9:36 PM, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

if Kril, Ruk, & Vor had 99.9% damage reduction instead of complete immunity during these "invincible" phases it would feel infinitely better. I'd rather see 1's even if its really not doing anything meaningful than dance around doing nothing while the boss refuses to take any damage.  At least i'd feel like I was doing something.

EDIT to add: I agree with the OP on the use of invincibility on the other bosses.  I never feel like they are invincible even when they are as there is something to do and/or visible progress being made.

 

I'd like to see numbers similar to when fighting a Sentient that's adapted to your damage.... high resistance but crits and base weapon power come into play...... 

Grakata will deal lots of tiny numbers while a Vectis still does one fairly decent chunk (and have a crit multiplier max for them too.... cutting down crit damage on resisted parts to just 1.5x because I know you can abuse with a Adarza Kavat and a Rubico)

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None of the bosses have 'consequence' tactics either for their phases that I know of. (Maybe Infested Alad V mind control could count.)

For example, if you don't take Vor's minions around him down when he's gone to recovering from the damage, when he comes out of his bubble, his minions get a buff exi-style.

 

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On 10/17/2017 at 9:06 PM, TheBrsrkr said:

Yeah! Why do they even bother with invincibility phases? 

*walks in*

*Fires 2 Tigris shots*

*boss dies*

It's so unfair! 

I don't know what you expect them to do if you can do up to and surpassing 50k damage per second besides cap it or make you wait for it. Tiny weakspots? Arca Plasmor. Tons of health? Tigris  and Dread. Interesting mechanics? Soma Prime. Unless there's a hard cap on how much damage you can do at once, bosses would be indistinguishable from your average Bombard. 

Maybe they could...I don't.know...BALANCE THEIR GAME as opposed to resorting to gimmicks literally no one likes.

Invulnerable phases are terrible design. Video games are INTERACTIVE media. Invulnerable phases REMOVE interaction. They are - by definition - bad design choices.

Consequently, Warframe features the worst boss battles in modern gaming.

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Just now, BlackCoMerc said:

Maybe they could...I don't.know...BALANCE THEIR GAME as opposed to resorting to gimmicks literally no one likes.

Invulnerable phases are terrible design. Video games are INTERACTIVE media. Invulnerable phases REMOVE interaction. They are - by definition - bad design choices.

Consequently, Warframe features the worst boss battles in modern gaming.

There are some good bosses that use invicibility..... but when they are invincible they can't attack you.... Vor, Tyl, Kela, and Lephantis are good examples.... their invincibility provides story, speech, and use of timing instead of a way for them to deal cheap damage to you when you can't strike back...

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Just now, Fractalisomega said:

There are some good bosses that use invicibility..... but when they are invincible they can't attack you.... Vor, Tyl, Kela, and Lephantis are good examples.... their invincibility provides story, speech, and use of timing instead of a way for them to deal cheap damage to you when you can't strike back...

That true. Not all uses are bad. Though I find new Kela terrible. It's so gimmicky. Just let me FIGHT THE BOSS.

And where Borderlands would have us blast away at giant enemies, Warframe doubles down on gimmicks for Teralysts...

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7 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

That true. Not all uses are bad. Though I find new Kela terrible. It's so gimmicky. Just let me FIGHT THE BOSS.

And where Borderlands would have us blast away at giant enemies, Warframe doubles down on gimmicks for Teralysts...

Well she is a TV host basically.... gimmicks is what they do so it makes sense for her

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Vor and Jackal, ironically are probably the best designed boss battles.  

Tyl Regor and Ambulas are more in the okay side, Regor due to bugs and poor transition, Ambulas due to boring downtime if you're killing the ambulas quickly.  

Others are varying degrees of bad to almost acceptable.

Honorable mention to Hyena pack and jetpack greneer duo in Orokin Sabotage for non invulnerability phase bosses that are pretty good that are still interesting even if you kill them in 1 hit, due to their high mobility and interesting moveset.

Edited by BattledOne
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10 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Maybe they could...I don't.know...BALANCE THEIR GAME as opposed to resorting to gimmicks literally no one likes.

 

Nerf the Tigris then. 

 

 

That reaction you just had? The one of disgust? That's the same many on this forum and those that play this game share. And that is what you are suggesting by balancing this game. 

 

Very few people here REALLY want balance in this game. Every time  I see DE make an attempt at it, it is quickly and brutally shot down by those who say thy want "balance". There's always talk of removing  enemy scaling and making damage abilities scale and increasing energy flow, but there's never any discussion of the frames and weapons themselves that doesn't get bombarded by people who say "you're just nerf herders" and "don't like it don't use it" and all sorts of other dismissive statements that amount to a solid, resounding NO. 

 

So you say you want balance, but  I ask, balance of what? 

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