Fractalisomega Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) What makes a boss bad? Invincibility phases..... For the most part in the game everytime you encounter an enemy you can attack them at any time and deal damage. Total damage immunity shouldn't exist except for a few select cases..... So.... lets talk about the bosses with Invincibility phases.. ~~~Captain Vor.... IMO this boss actually did it right.... The battle is separated into sections where you can attack Vor and other phases where he shields himself for regenerate his Shield meter.... once the meter is full he drops his bubble and returns to the fight. The fight is well spaced but doesn't take too long.... it's just right for new and mid-game players. So... what could be changed to make this better for late game players? Maybe have it so that a certain number of the Grineer summoned to fight have to be slain before Vor drops the bubble once his shield is regenerated. ~~~Vay Hek.... This boss is... annoying.... his floaty movement is ok but combine that with very short windows which you can deal damage due to incinvibility and you can easily see why he is so tough.... in fact once he goes into his Terraframe form he actually becomes much easier to kill. To fix this I'd love to see him altered to have high armor and corrosion immunity but a large weakness to face shots.... this way the fight keeps moving forward but can take jumps forward with a well placed shot.... ~~~ Sargus Ruk and Lech Kril.... both of these bosses suffer from permanent invincibility unless you shoot a certain area at a certain time.... similar to the change to Vay Hek I'd like these bosses to have massive armor except on their weak areas.... anything to keep the fight moving forward.... but more importantly I'd like to get some tips on what to do from Lotus herself in the mission.... if anyone remembers the first time they fought these bosses you had no clue (unless you cheated and read up on some wiki or watched a video) and more than likely it was your team that did most of the damage... not you.... ~~~Kela De Thaym, Lephantis, and Tyl Regor..... all three of these bosses are fun to fight because even though they have invincibility phases they aren't abused like the other bosses mentioned here.... they space out the battle or are lifted so that they can attack you.... when they choose to fight you... you can strike back. Edited October 17, 2017 by Fractalisomega Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrsrkr Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Yeah! Why do they even bother with invincibility phases? *walks in* *Fires 2 Tigris shots* *boss dies* It's so unfair! I don't know what you expect them to do if you can do up to and surpassing 50k damage per second besides cap it or make you wait for it. Tiny weakspots? Arca Plasmor. Tons of health? Tigris and Dread. Interesting mechanics? Soma Prime. Unless there's a hard cap on how much damage you can do at once, bosses would be indistinguishable from your average Bombard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)psycofang Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 9 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said: Unless there's a hard cap on how much damage you can do at once, bosses would be indistinguishable from your average Bombard. Numerous games actually do this, Kala and Vor do this by separating there hp into phases. Invincibility is the mark of a new phase/mechanic not the entire fight. Lech Kril and Vey Hek are notorious for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fractalisomega Posted October 18, 2017 Author Share Posted October 18, 2017 Plus there's the Juggernaut which is a great example of what I think a good non-invincible but still super tanky enemy should be... It can take damage at any time but if you can hit it's weak spot you deal lots of damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 (edited) if Kril, Ruk, & Vor had 99.9% damage reduction instead of complete immunity during these "invincible" phases it would feel infinitely better. I'd rather see 1's even if its really not doing anything meaningful than dance around doing nothing while the boss refuses to take any damage. At least i'd feel like I was doing something. EDIT to add: I agree with the OP on the use of invincibility on the other bosses. I never feel like they are invincible even when they are as there is something to do and/or visible progress being made. Edited October 18, 2017 by (XB1)Tucker D Dawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fractalisomega Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 On 10/17/2017 at 9:36 PM, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said: if Kril, Ruk, & Vor had 99.9% damage reduction instead of complete immunity during these "invincible" phases it would feel infinitely better. I'd rather see 1's even if its really not doing anything meaningful than dance around doing nothing while the boss refuses to take any damage. At least i'd feel like I was doing something. EDIT to add: I agree with the OP on the use of invincibility on the other bosses. I never feel like they are invincible even when they are as there is something to do and/or visible progress being made. I'd like to see numbers similar to when fighting a Sentient that's adapted to your damage.... high resistance but crits and base weapon power come into play...... Grakata will deal lots of tiny numbers while a Vectis still does one fairly decent chunk (and have a crit multiplier max for them too.... cutting down crit damage on resisted parts to just 1.5x because I know you can abuse with a Adarza Kavat and a Rubico) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helaton Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 None of the bosses have 'consequence' tactics either for their phases that I know of. (Maybe Infested Alad V mind control could count.) For example, if you don't take Vor's minions around him down when he's gone to recovering from the damage, when he comes out of his bubble, his minions get a buff exi-style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackCoMerc Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 On 10/17/2017 at 9:06 PM, TheBrsrkr said: Yeah! Why do they even bother with invincibility phases? *walks in* *Fires 2 Tigris shots* *boss dies* It's so unfair! I don't know what you expect them to do if you can do up to and surpassing 50k damage per second besides cap it or make you wait for it. Tiny weakspots? Arca Plasmor. Tons of health? Tigris and Dread. Interesting mechanics? Soma Prime. Unless there's a hard cap on how much damage you can do at once, bosses would be indistinguishable from your average Bombard. Maybe they could...I don't.know...BALANCE THEIR GAME as opposed to resorting to gimmicks literally no one likes. Invulnerable phases are terrible design. Video games are INTERACTIVE media. Invulnerable phases REMOVE interaction. They are - by definition - bad design choices. Consequently, Warframe features the worst boss battles in modern gaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fractalisomega Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 Just now, BlackCoMerc said: Maybe they could...I don't.know...BALANCE THEIR GAME as opposed to resorting to gimmicks literally no one likes. Invulnerable phases are terrible design. Video games are INTERACTIVE media. Invulnerable phases REMOVE interaction. They are - by definition - bad design choices. Consequently, Warframe features the worst boss battles in modern gaming. There are some good bosses that use invicibility..... but when they are invincible they can't attack you.... Vor, Tyl, Kela, and Lephantis are good examples.... their invincibility provides story, speech, and use of timing instead of a way for them to deal cheap damage to you when you can't strike back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackCoMerc Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Just now, Fractalisomega said: There are some good bosses that use invicibility..... but when they are invincible they can't attack you.... Vor, Tyl, Kela, and Lephantis are good examples.... their invincibility provides story, speech, and use of timing instead of a way for them to deal cheap damage to you when you can't strike back... That true. Not all uses are bad. Though I find new Kela terrible. It's so gimmicky. Just let me FIGHT THE BOSS. And where Borderlands would have us blast away at giant enemies, Warframe doubles down on gimmicks for Teralysts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fractalisomega Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 7 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said: That true. Not all uses are bad. Though I find new Kela terrible. It's so gimmicky. Just let me FIGHT THE BOSS. And where Borderlands would have us blast away at giant enemies, Warframe doubles down on gimmicks for Teralysts... Well she is a TV host basically.... gimmicks is what they do so it makes sense for her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackCoMerc Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Fractalisomega said: Well she is a TV host basically.... gimmicks is what they do so it makes sense for her True enough...but it's not a FUN gimmick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattledOne Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) Vor and Jackal, ironically are probably the best designed boss battles. Tyl Regor and Ambulas are more in the okay side, Regor due to bugs and poor transition, Ambulas due to boring downtime if you're killing the ambulas quickly. Others are varying degrees of bad to almost acceptable. Honorable mention to Hyena pack and jetpack greneer duo in Orokin Sabotage for non invulnerability phase bosses that are pretty good that are still interesting even if you kill them in 1 hit, due to their high mobility and interesting moveset. Edited October 19, 2017 by BattledOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrsrkr Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 10 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said: Maybe they could...I don't.know...BALANCE THEIR GAME as opposed to resorting to gimmicks literally no one likes. Nerf the Tigris then. That reaction you just had? The one of disgust? That's the same many on this forum and those that play this game share. And that is what you are suggesting by balancing this game. Very few people here REALLY want balance in this game. Every time I see DE make an attempt at it, it is quickly and brutally shot down by those who say thy want "balance". There's always talk of removing enemy scaling and making damage abilities scale and increasing energy flow, but there's never any discussion of the frames and weapons themselves that doesn't get bombarded by people who say "you're just nerf herders" and "don't like it don't use it" and all sorts of other dismissive statements that amount to a solid, resounding NO. So you say you want balance, but I ask, balance of what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Onyx Schnee Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 13 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said: True enough...but it's not a FUN gimmick. seeing how she is intentionally trying to make us look bad.....maybe he's supposed to be frustratingly gimmicky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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