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Even PC Gamer is salty. [PC Gamer Criticism of PoE for new players]


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5 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

You see though, if that is the case then that's really quite bad imo.

Imagine it's currently October 2018. PoE has been out for a year now, players who have until now been too noobish to really explore the content PoE has to offer are now faced with months upon months of grinding a separate economy of resources. This is on top of any grinding they have already done on the star chart.

Not only that though, but by this time there may already be 1 or 2 more open worlds. Are each of them going to be so grindy that they last till the next update with their own self contained economy? Given the time between major updates nowadays each open world will need to be lasting us about 6 months, what happens when that new player sees 3 open worlds to explore, but 18 months more of solid grinding?

I'm all for having something to actually do and that's the very reason I'm playing again, but if you make it require such a time investment it can become quite overwhelming, especially for newer players and people who have a life away from their computer.

1000% this.

We players who have been here a long time and gotten established have to remember to take a step back from our narrower perspective where new content is simply another set of checkboxes to tick off. We have to remember to step back and see how many checkboxes there actually are now, and ask if perhaps Warframe is a bit too bloated. Don't get me wrong, more content is good. But not if you can see all of that content in a few hours and get bored of that content in a few weeks... and still have a few months to go before you can possibly finish it.

This ties back into a point I raise a lot, and won't stop raising until people start listening, but grind burnout points to a bigger problem than RNG weighting for loot. It points to the core gameplay, the actual stuff you are doing while grinding, lacking what it needs to keep players engaged. If players are playing the game simply because they want to play the game, and not because they MUST get this ONE SPECIFIC THING, they aren't going to burn out as easily. Let me be clear: Of course everyone who is grinding wants to play Warframe. But what about specifically what they are doing in Warframe? Do people pick Fissure missions because they are leaps and bounds more entertaining than a random star-chart node, or do they pick them because those missions have desirable rewards? Do people pick Bounty missions because they are substantially more interesting, or because it's the only place to get certain items?

If the missions we were running and the mechanics we were using to grind for some specific loot were enjoyable and interesting enough to make players want to run those missions even if they knew they wouldn't get some specific reward, the grind wouldn't be half as bad. It's when you get to the point that you're looking at the game as something to skip through as fast as possible because, really, it's just a chore sitting in the way of what you want that you start to have a problem. I think PoE has introduced the foundations of a great potential solution to this: battles on the plains, balance frustrations notwithstanding, feel much more alive. They are cinematic. They are exciting. They feel more believably real, and I'm happy to get caught up in them even after I've finished my bounty and really ought to head back to Cetus to pick up another.

Grind is not pure evil. Lengthy grind is potentially okay. But making something that takes months to years to complete simply because there's nothing else to do or no other reason to play means something is wrong. I really hope DE can put down the grind crutch and fix that something. I, for one, would actually want to start giving them money again.

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17 minutes ago, (PS4)Nzza_News said:

Its Supposed to be Separate. 

It shouldn't be separate. All that does is confuse and hinder new players resource-wise, especially since Ferrite and Rubedo don't drop in PoE...despite the fact that PoE is a node on Earth where Ferrite and Rubedo are normal resource drops. There's no consistency. Also, the resources that drop exclusively in the PoE node only apply to Zaw and Amp Components...and nothing else. So not very useful for the so-called end-game.

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I think everyone just needs to lean back, relax and enjoy what they can of the Plains cause this is just the first week of a complete pivot. This is literally the first step of the 100 mile walk for them. They've stated multiple times that the economy is going to change and continue to be developed. I'm sure just by the length of this thread DE has already seen it and is looking at making the proper adjustments. Personally, DE has never let me down when it comes to changing and updating as they need to.

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1 hour ago, Gabenight7 said:

I think everyone just needs to lean back, relax and enjoy what they can of the Plains cause this is just the first week of a complete pivot. This is literally the first step of the 100 mile walk for them. They've stated multiple times that the economy is going to change and continue to be developed. I'm sure just by the length of this thread DE has already seen it and is looking at making the proper adjustments. Personally, DE has never let me down when it comes to changing and updating as they need to.

What I'm worried about is that there is debatable worth in walking a 100 mile circle. The problem with all their drastic directional changes is that they ultimately go nowhere.

By all means, let's enjoy the game. But let's be real about the likely outcome: and now for something completely different!

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To be perfectly honest, Plains has launched as such a disgraceful mess, shot through with bugs, with a disgustingly imbalanced game economy, rabidly increased grind, and enforced fishing (of all the bloody things, hours upon hours of fishing) to even come close to picking up anything new that I have simply decided to express faith in DE.

 

 

In other words, I'm buggering off until they actually fix the game economy. Note that I'm not flouncing out for good, I'm just gonna go do stuff which is decisively other than Warframe until DE get it together, calm down, and un-frigging-clench. I'm assuming that they will eventually.

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1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said:

To be perfectly honest, Plains has launched as such a disgraceful mess, shot through with bugs, with a disgustingly imbalanced game economy, rabidly increased grind, and enforced fishing (of all the bloody things, hours upon hours of fishing) to even come close to picking up anything new that I have simply decided to express faith in DE.

 

 

In other words, I'm buggering off until they actually fix the game economy. Note that I'm not flouncing out for good, I'm just gonna go do stuff which is decisively other than Warframe until DE get it together, calm down, and un-frigging-clench. I'm assuming that they will eventually.

yeah I have to agree. PoE needed like another 6 months of development time. Not like, full studio working on it development time, more just 6 months of time to stew and change things if necessary.

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As of last night the bounties are still glitchy as hell. Thats actually my biggest complaint. After many hotfixes four out of five simply won't end or start correctly. I'm assuming the resources will be more useful for future content. That's how everything has always worked in this game. Something feels tacked on and then work it into future updates. Arxhwing for example was tacked on and felt disconnected then they worked it into underwater levels and now Poe. 

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When I log on in the evening I try find a couple of those &^#^&#^ Lua challenge rooms, then jump into the Plains for a bounty, then go on to do something else. Played like this I'm enjoying PoE, it's a just a part of my play session. I have had a couple of bugs, but overall I find the experience fun in small doses, which is actually how I enjoy Warframe generally. I have a lot less fun when I'm doing one specific thing repeatedly and prefer to progress along a few paths more slowly.

Having said this I agree with the PC Gamer writer that PoE isn't really a great introduction to the game for a new player, but I suspect it's accessible early to give new players a taste to get them to come back later, I mean it is suuuuuper pretty and fun when everything is working. But the nature of gamers, and WF players in particular, is such that a new player will probably grind themselves silly and get miserable rather than move on to the rest of the star map.

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Ok, so, the actual complaints are as follows:

1: Players that do not have this or that gear can not use the addons they have for that particular gear. (Please ignore the fact that this is the case for every single game out there.)

2. Said player does not instantly get that particular gear with the addons and has to go and get that gear the old fashioned way unless he/she wants to pay for it. (Please ignore the fact that this is the case for every single game out there.)

3. In some cases gear that has been earned and thus can be used makes the players life easier compared to a situation in which that gear is missing. The person complaining about this did not bother to get the gear even though he/she had time to do so. #feelsbadman (Please ignore the fact that this is the case for every single game out there.)

4. In a game that demands literally hundreds of hours to go through all the gear without using real life currency some of the gear the writer would have wanted but did not bother to get just did not magically appear in his/her inventory. (Please ignore the fact that this is the case for every single game out there.)

5. There are bugs but the devs are working on them as we speak.

 

To me it seems that there is one complaint there that has merit, but the rest is just pointless, entitled whining. I'm nearly at 500h and I'm sorely disappointed if I can just walz in there and get everything there is for merely bothering to chat with the locals. It's a grindy looter, it favors the persistent over flaky. That is one of the reasons why we love it.

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On 10/18/2017 at 9:05 AM, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

The problem is, Warframe's state of development is like an alpha/early beta. It's an insult to actual released games that went through the standard development process (pre-alpha to alpha to beta to release) to not call Warframe a beta. Let's not keep pretending that Warframe is a post-beta product on par with AAA games or any other released title. It's another DayZ (i.e. a perpetually early access title in alpha/beta that makes money off of its incomplete state), just one that is of higher quality and polish and gameplay.

I'd be curious to know what litmus you are using to support the assertion that it's an alpha/early-beta stage product.

Objectively,I disagree with your opinion.

...This may be because I lack your frame of reference though and would be interested in knowing how you arrived at your conclusion.

  

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15 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

I'd be curious to know what litmus you are using to support the assertion that it's an alpha/early-beta stage product.

Objectively,I disagree with your opinion.

...This may be because I lack your frame of reference though and would be interested in knowing how you arrived at your conclusion.

  

I've been calling Warframe a continuous development game.  It has solid full release aspects and is constantly adding new things that are akin to beta stage projects. 

Plus this thread is the same thread I have read for 3 years now every time something new comes out.  Word for word almost lol.

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1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

I'd be curious to know what litmus you are using to support the assertion that it's an alpha/early-beta stage product.

Objectively,I disagree with your opinion.

...This may be because I lack your frame of reference though and would be interested in knowing how you arrived at your conclusion.

  

There are features in the core game that are incomplete. That's the difference between an alpha/beta product and a released product. Things like incomplete Dojo rooms (Observation Room and Temple of Honor), the Dark Sector/Alliance/Solar Rail (old one, not the junctions) systems, un-PBRd content (many frames and accessories still aren't PBRd), the presence of non-combat enemies (they started work on this with Ceres but just stopped), the lore (it's all over the place, is contradictory, and is generally incomplete), and the general progression and structure of the game as a whole (and how separate various systems are).

Most of this is generally from Wikipedia and from the little I know and have observed about game design and the typical development process. The alpha stage is the stage where you add the core features to the core game. The beta stage is generally where final tweaking of core features occurs, where you're testing how the game holds up with multiple players, and where the game's various features are organized and structured into a clear, coherent progression system such that it's, well, organized. Generally, no new features are being added in this stage. Pretty much, it's doing all the work necessary to make it a polished, professional product. Then the game releases, meaning the core game is complete (meaning it doesn't need any more major reworks) and structured (meaning everything is integrated, there's a clear progression system that is organized and structured, the game's lore is set and is coherent). Then additional features start being added; these are what you would call expansions or DLC.

It is a common misconception among the Warframe playerbase that complete means no new content. That is simply not true. Complete games can be supported for years with new content. The notion that Warframe can only enjoy continuous content if it is incomplete is ridiculous. Warframe can be a complete game and continue to enjoy post-release updates. The difference is that Warframe's core game will be complete, meaning that its core features (it's pre-release features) will be fully developed, without need for major reworks (not that it can't undergo reworks but that it doesn't need them), and organized into a clear progression structure, and that the game's story or lore is integrated into this core structure.

Warframe right now is like a game that never went through the beta period. It's like they skipped straight from adding core features to adding expansions and DLC, and as though they've been taking small steps towards beta stage progress. That's just my frame of reference. IMO, Warframe is relatively unorganized and unstructured, with various features that aren't integrated together, such that they're separate and disconnected. It's lore is still rather contradictory and incoherent. There is content left over in the game that DE has not touched, whether it's terribly-textured tilesets like the Derelict or old lore that hasn't been addressed in four years (such as the presence of Orokin emperors mentioned in the Stalker codex entry) or the Clan/Alliance Solar Rail system which still has menus in the now-useless Orokin lab or the incomplete Dojo rooms or the Focus school descriptions which have no bearing on the Focus rework (meaning it's lore content that DE hasn't touched and hasn't addressed in two years). All of this leads me to the conclusion that Warframe is an incomplete product. That it is in an alpha state. That is has been in this state for five years is what leads me to compare it to games like DayZ, which came up with this Early Access craze where devs would essentially sell access to their incomplete product so that they could make money during their development. Warframe just went open in May 2013. While they had a Closed Alpha and Closed Beta period, the game was certainly not in Beta state when it left Closed Beta for Open Beta. The state of the game at that time was comparable to the state of an early alpha. That's how barebones and incomplete it was back then. While it has undergone tremendous polish and growth, I don't think it has ever left what I would consider to be an alpha state. If the devs were to stop adding new systems and were to work to organize and structure the game so that the existing features were fully fleshed out and the lore was coherent and the progression system clear for new and existing players, then I'd consider the game to have arrived at a beta state.

The main reason I was pushing for DE to add an open world environment was because I thought, and still think, it's a good way for DE to integrate various features of the game, from the existing PvE mission types to archwing (not via charges and requiring fishing, though) to boss fights and invasions and even Dark Sectors. I think open world is a direction that could lead to a Warframe that eventually gets out of beta. But not like how PoE is currently implemented. Not with a PoE that is lacking in the features that make open worlds fun, imo. Not in the lack of integration of the rest of the game.

I know not everyone shares that opinion, but having played a variety of games, from multiplayer shooters to racing games to linear story-driven singleplayer games to action/adventure open world games to MMOs, I've noticed the thing that differs between those games (even if they were bad games) and Warframe, and it's that Warframe is full of incomplete features. It's messy, contradictory, and unfinished. I hope that clarifies why I believe what I believe.

20 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

1000% this.

We players who have been here a long time and gotten established have to remember to take a step back from our narrower perspective where new content is simply another set of checkboxes to tick off. We have to remember to step back and see how many checkboxes there actually are now, and ask if perhaps Warframe is a bit too bloated. Don't get me wrong, more content is good. But not if you can see all of that content in a few hours and get bored of that content in a few weeks... and still have a few months to go before you can possibly finish it.

This ties back into a point I raise a lot, and won't stop raising until people start listening, but grind burnout points to a bigger problem than RNG weighting for loot. It points to the core gameplay, the actual stuff you are doing while grinding, lacking what it needs to keep players engaged. If players are playing the game simply because they want to play the game, and not because they MUST get this ONE SPECIFIC THING, they aren't going to burn out as easily. Let me be clear: Of course everyone who is grinding wants to play Warframe. But what about specifically what they are doing in Warframe? Do people pick Fissure missions because they are leaps and bounds more entertaining than a random star-chart node, or do they pick them because those missions have desirable rewards? Do people pick Bounty missions because they are substantially more interesting, or because it's the only place to get certain items?

If the missions we were running and the mechanics we were using to grind for some specific loot were enjoyable and interesting enough to make players want to run those missions even if they knew they wouldn't get some specific reward, the grind wouldn't be half as bad. It's when you get to the point that you're looking at the game as something to skip through as fast as possible because, really, it's just a chore sitting in the way of what you want that you start to have a problem. I think PoE has introduced the foundations of a great potential solution to this: battles on the plains, balance frustrations notwithstanding, feel much more alive. They are cinematic. They are exciting. They feel more believably real, and I'm happy to get caught up in them even after I've finished my bounty and really ought to head back to Cetus to pick up another.

Grind is not pure evil. Lengthy grind is potentially okay. But making something that takes months to years to complete simply because there's nothing else to do or no other reason to play means something is wrong. I really hope DE can put down the grind crutch and fix that something. I, for one, would actually want to start giving them money again.

That's what I've been saying for years! It's the entire problem with Warframe being a looter - in that it is designed and developed solely around getting reward items. DE has developed this game such that the only goal is to acquire reward items, and weapons and warframe serve only to help you more easily get loot. If the game was fundamentally designed around engaging gameplay, then that would make the grind bearable and enjoyable, because the purpose of the game would be on gameplay. I'm more excited about games like Battlefront 2 and Ac Origins than I am about PoE, not because Battlefront 2 or AC Origins offer more content than Warframe has (they really don't), but because they are designed around immersive and engaging gameplay experiences. There is loot in both, but the focus of the game, the reason to play, isn't just to get reward items. It's not about getting stuff, but about the gameplay experience - the experience of playing against others within a Star Wars context for Battlefront, and the experience of being engrossed in an immersive historical world for AC Origins. This is a focus that Warframe utterly lacks, and that has extended over to Plains of Eidolon (which is why I think it's a very poor, lackluster open world environment). And it makes the grind of Plains of Eidolon much more unbearable because, imo and in the opinions of others, the gameplay options that Plains of Eidolon offers are quite frankly not satisfying.

Edited by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n
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Im not surprised 

the grind is insane and the new players coming in also insane.

Every time i see them in bounty 3 and above. .i be like. " dood this is not the place for you"

Well not to worry im pretty sure they will quit warframe when they see the real picture soon

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4 hours ago, (PS4)geomancer1980 said:

I've been calling Warframe a continuous development game.  It has solid full release aspects and is constantly adding new things that are akin to beta stage projects. 

Plus this thread is the same thread I have read for 3 years now every time something new comes out.  Word for word almost lol.

I agree. I was tempted to make a "how will the community hate this update?" thread, but didn't want to be negative.

Edited by Hypernaut1
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