Let's talk about Operators... Again.

[Spartan336]

I've been seeing a lot of "I hate Operators" and "No, you're in the minority, I love Operators" comments. I'm tired of seeing them, and I can't make them go away, but I'd figure I'd channel them all here anyways. 

Today I want to talk about Operators, and our view of them. I also want to present my ramblings regarding them. 

So, question. Do I like Operators?

Meh... Story wise it's weird. You've got these awesome space ninja's and they're controlled by... Children. It definitely plays into the whole "Lotus is Space-mom" thing, but otherwise it's just out there. I do, however, kinda like what DE is trying to do with them. Ignoring how weird the entire thing is, they're not that bad story wise. They need to be flushed out though. Something about it just feels incomplete, like the integration of schools. 

Game play for Operators is also weird, but I find myself liking it. Sure it could use more ability customization, like alternate abilities for void dash and void beam. But overall I find the non-ninja-like game play to be refreshing. 

Do I feel they are being forced upon us? No. Actually. The Plains is so disconnected from the main game that even with the inclusion of Eidolon's and the fact that you have to take then down with the Operator, I'm just not feeling that way. 

Their voice acting needs work. WORK.

Overall though, I like them. So I have a question for you. Do you like them? 

[(XBOX)calvina]

I like the concept for Operators on Paper (from a story standpoint atleast)

But in execution, they're rather underwhelming, super powerful kiddos capable of channeling thier void powers to do powerful things, yet they just scratch things in-game. However, further expansion on the operators would be nice, why can't we go visit teshin and have us use his super mysterious dojo/gym to train our operators in things like parkour? Can we eventually get a sort of quest where we can build a machine that allows us to mature our operators down the road into adults for more opportunities? (our kubrows can do this, why can't our kids?)

 

Also, expanding on the Teshin idea, he would be a great NPC in regards to improving the physical skills of our operator, allowing us to unlock parkour/movement skills, give the operators our old Parkour 1.0 system that allows them to run on walls and stuff. (Think of it as channeling thier void power to stick on the wall, which slowly drains energy, etc.) And also put some additions from parkour 2.0, like gliding.

"Welcome Pupil, do you wish to continue your training?"

Edited October 18, 2017 by (XB1)calvina

[Archeyef]

I like them. I don't think they're that viable in their current state, though to be fair I haven't really touched much of Focus 2.0, so maybe they get better? I'll have to see for myself. Either way, I don't think it's something that should be dropped.

They are not fine as is, so they should be improved. But not dropped.

[Spartan336]

1 minute ago, Archeyef said:

I like them. I don't think they're that viable in their current state, though to be fair I haven't really touched much of Focus 2.0, so maybe they get better? I'll have to see for myself. Either way, I don't think it's something that should be dropped.

They are not fine as is, so they should be improved. But not dropped.

Yeah, regardless of whether or not you like them, they can't be dropped. They're already permanent. 

[KelsierSurvivor]

I have never had anything against them really. Except for three major things I'm sure everyone would agree with. 

1: The voice acting. I agree with you on that, OP.

2: The hair... Oh my gosh the hair... I am actively using the one hairstyle I find decent for the males. But goodness they need better hair... Like, just base it off of LEGO hair and you'll be good. 

3: This one is something that not everyone will agree with for sure. I would like it if we were able to change their height, width, etc. Their original bodies were made to look gender neuteral and the voices would decide the gender. Maybe the hair too, but if this hair is where we're headed in two thousand plus years, I don't want cryogenics to become a reality. (You've probably noticed that I don't like the hair.) 

Other than those three things, I really like them as far as story goes, gameplay, everything. Salute to DE and the amazing game and lore they've created!

Edited October 18, 2017 by KelsierSurvivor

[Kyronz]

They are still awkward to play, need to have entire movement revamped and if they could toss in some combat options that are not locked behind a ridiculous grind wall, that would be great.

[RawGritz]

I like the added slide maneuver they have now!. But they need to be flushed out for more mobile combat. Other than that I like them lore-wise. They are children in body alone. They are older all our Grandparents.

[Fearless_Observer]

I entered the Plains of Eidolon resenting the Operator because I know I would get carpal tunnel syndrome from transferring back and forth from Operator to Warframe while doing all the actions needed to take down the Eidolon Teralyst, but surprisingly I ended up enjoying the challenge and the need of real teamwork to take down the beast.

But the grind to get the Operator all pimped up so that I can kill the Eidolon Teralyst faster or have a Fashion Operator will burn out on me quickly, but until then or until I get the damned carpal tunnel syndrome I'll be enjoying roaming to the Plains of Eidolon.

 

[Nyaa314]

37 minutes ago, Spartan336 said:

Do I feel they are being forced upon us? No.

Did you try farming kuva? Focus 2.0 maybe?

[Spartan336]

2 minutes ago, Nyaa314 said:

Did you try farming kuva? Focus 2.0 maybe?

Kuva farming is much later down the road for everyone, and you can ignore the focus tree if you want to. 

EDIT: On top of that Kuva is only used for a weapon or two and Rivens, which are also completely optional, and with a market, something you don't have to always farm Kuva for. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Spartan336

[AEP8FlyBoy]

From the beginning, Operators were never meant to overshadow Warframes in any regard whatsoever. They were introduced as a plot point, a way of letting the Tenno know that they weren't just a badass killing machine, but that there was a more frail side to them.

Operators as they are, are still far from overpowering Warframes in terms of combat effectiveness, but they are becoming a bit more useful in terms of supporting the Warframes a little more actively. Their abilities don't do much for anyone else other than themselves (not referring to Focus at all here, just their standard abilities), they're a bit slow and clunky in terms of movement, and more often than not you're just going to be in Void Mode to avoid damage.

From a lore perspective however, I fell in love with the idea that behind the blood-coated war machines, are these fragile and young children acting as puppeteers from the safety of an Orbiter or the Reservoir. I can understand why some people don't like the Operators, and I can relate to that, as there are many areas in which the Operators still need improvement.

I for one, I enjoy them. I don't find them annoying, and I don't mind having to embrace the idea of evolving them to become a truly powerful Tenno. After all, Tenno is used to refer to the Warframe or the Operator, and I see them as two sides of the same coin. One side of the coin is just a little more liked by the community, and the idea of Operators has been basically shunned by some people. That's all fine and dandy.

I just don't like seeing people going on rants saying that they're the voice for the entire community when they say they hate Operators. Not everyone does.
I sure don't.

I'm anticipating the moment when people can warm up to the idea of Operators (after almost two years), and evolve with the game. Eventually they'll have to.
I don't think there will be any problems except when Operators are required for certain things, that will leave players that 'dislike' them with a choice. Deal with it or leave.

As simple as that.

Edited October 18, 2017 by AEP8FlyBoy

[BiancaRoughfin]

I like the Operators overall, the lore involving them and the key role they play tho i have been reluctant about Focus 2.0 as i feel my supportability as a Vazarin user got drastically crippled.

[Omnimorph]

47 minutes ago, Spartan336 said:

I've been seeing a lot of "I hate Operators" and "No, you're in the minority, I love Operators" comments. I'm tired of seeing them, and I can't make them go away, but I'd figure I'd channel them all here anyways. 

Today I want to talk about Operators, and our view of them. I also want to present my ramblings regarding them. 

So, question. Do I like Operators?

Meh... Story wise it's weird. You've got these awesome space ninja's and they're controlled by... Children. It definitely plays into the whole "Lotus is Space-mom" thing, but otherwise it's just out there. I do, however, kinda like what DE is trying to do with them. Ignoring how weird the entire thing is, they're not that bad story wise. They need to be flushed out though. Something about it just feels incomplete, like the integration of schools. 

Game play for Operators is also weird, but I find myself liking it. Sure it could use more ability customization, like alternate abilities for void dash and void beam. But overall I find the non-ninja-like game play to be refreshing. 

Do I feel they are being forced upon us? No. Actually. The Plains is so disconnected from the main game that even with the inclusion of Eidolon's and the fact that you have to take then down with the Operator, I'm just not feeling that way. 

Their voice acting needs work. WORK.

Overall though, I like them. So I have a question for you. Do you like them? 

IN THEORY, I love the Operator lore.  The idea that you're a child soldier bamboozled into fighting a war by an Avatar-like control system that makes you "dream" that you're a noble s-f ninja/superhero type of figure, is tragic.  IN THEORY, the transition should have been quite smooth - any player who had any sort of head canon about their character (whether grizzled vet, cynical nihilist, naive ingenue, etc.) should have been able to retain that head canon as soon as they discovered they were the Operator.  (Because while the Operator's body is that of a child, psychologically they have lived a full life, developed a culture, fought a great war.  Psychologically speaking, they ought to be quite on a par with mature adults, of whatever temperament.)

IN PRACTICE that illusion was shattered by the dumb Operator comments (and DE must have realized they were dumb because they offered the opportunity to switch them off from the get-go - presumably they're in there because the majority of the playerbase is still relatively young, so more able to identify with dumb in-game comments) and also by the portrayal in certain aspects of TWW of the Operator as timid and traumatized.  (Again, in theory, it's possible that a vet with the psychological age of, say, a 60 year old might be traumatized by the revelations of TSD, but it would be more like PTSD traumatization, not the bafflement of a child.)

Gameplay wise, I really, really hated and loathed Operator gameplay because it departed from the agility and speed of the warframes, and made me feel like any other schlub in an MMO, walking/running around at a snail's pace.  Having to press 5 to transition was also painful - in TWW, in the kuva stuff and particularly in the last Harrow mission.

But now, with that single simple change of a press to a tap, it's made Operator gameplay much more enjoyable for me - now it feels like you're the same entity but just with an extra set of abilities.  The speed/energy problems can now be dealt with by exploring the Focus tree, which gives the Focus tree a lot more interest and importance to me now.

So yeah, I for one welcome our new Operator overlords :)

[Tekka_Croe]

The only real problem I have with the Operators is that players don't have any control over the Operators' personality.  There needs to be a much larger pool of things that they can say, and we need to have control over which lines of dialog are used by our own operator.  I want to be able to have a calm, cool, level-headed Operator, not someone who's throwing around quips or moral judgments of their enemies.

I was also expecting, back in the day, that Operator transmissions were meant to be seen by other squad members who had also completed The Second Dream, representing chatter between teammates.  I think it would go a long way toward adding a sense of camaraderie to public matches.

Also, is there some trick to using the Operator's slide-dodge maneuver in actual missions?  It works just fine in the Orbiter, but I've never been able to use it in-mission.

[Teloch]

It would take an entire day for me to fully elaborate on my thoughts on the operators, so I'll be as short as possible.

1. Story

They are the pre-made characters with the backgrounds decided by the storyteller (Steve, I assume). This implies that they have made actions in the universe which were made because of writer's will, and not because of our choosing. DE insists that these kids are us in this fictional universe. BUT! By not having the options to compose the backgrounds of our avatars, the writer (Steve, I assume) projects their mortality and reasoning via the plot device on us, making our avatars do things or have the background we would not opt to have. This creates resentment. Very intense resentment. Examples:

Q: Would you commit the crime of betrayal of your side during the war conflict for any material or non-material benefits?
Me: No way. 

Q: Would you cause a violent upheaval, fully realizing the destructive consequences, and refuse to take control/responsibility of the resulted status quo?
Me: Na-ah

Q: Would you commit mass murder, acts of terrorism, kidnappings for the sake of material or non-material reward?
Me: Nuuuu!

Basically, the writer suggests, that our avatars (aka we) are as dumb as to fall under the influence of an insurgent spy, causing a violent rebel, that resulted in the collapse of the whole human civilization, numerous deaths, ensued "state of nature", and the total havoc, which we are trying to mend currently following orders of a self-imposed "parent", who orders us to commit genocide, terroristic acts, and kidnappings on daily basis for the sake of some mythical "balance" (read: conservation of the existent conflict for the sake of self-actualization and profiteering). Forcing own values on the audience is simply appalling. And the pre-made voice lines as well as the mental age of our presumed avatars make things even worse.

2. Customization

Yes, many people detest playing as kids, many really enjoy that, and even more are neutral. BUT! If you force people in the hides of kids, giving absolutely no alternatives, makes the people from the first group utterly upset. Knowingly ridding people of the decent options to customize their alter-ego isn't the best way to gain popularity or approval. So yeah, an option to set up the age or even *gasp* the mammary glands sizes would've mended the resentment some of the audience feel towards the operators. Even the ridiculous example - being able to slide between 12 y.o. baby and 18 y.o. greenhorn would make a lot of people happier about their freedom as players. 

3. Mechanics

Instead of some void-powered futuristic wizards, we control some second-grade grunts with limited mobility and samely limited arsenal. You wish to move like a tidal wave of fire and fury? use that punny space dash. You wish to throw fire and destruction left and right and to set the world on fire? You may want to opt that void fart blast thingy, or just use the Ember warframe. You wish to blow the heads of your enemies, splitting their brains all around the area while laughing like a psychotic PTSD soldier-child you supposedly are? Uhhh... we have a wrist squirt gun for you... And you can shoot a lazer beam, yeah... You wish to become a Wuxia -style grandmaster with all the swag, moves, and benefits? Too bad, because the focus schools are just embodiments of the strength / stamina / dexterity / intelligence attributes and function in the very same, mathematical way. 

This is what you call the wasted effort.

4. Highlight competition.

DE can't focus on improving both warframes and operators. Something must be in the center of their attention. Recently, the operators were encroaching on warframes territory, mostly robbing the latter of the benefits we all know about by privatizing the whole focus system. Those who are here to play warframes and not some template anime kids feel being forced to play as them. Kuva system also contributes to this feeling. 

 

Basically, DE attempted to be too original with their extremely delayed decision to reveal the protagonists, which resulted in initial resentment that persists to this very day. But they refuse to give the players the liberty to not associate themselves with the pre-made protagonists, which causes even more distaste among players. 

I hope that this post will not be perceived as some hateful writing or salt sowing, as I tried my best to maintain it intonationally neutral.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Teloch

[Awazx]

1 hour ago, Spartan336 said:

Do I feel they are being forced upon us? No. Actually. The Plains is so disconnected from the main game that even with the inclusion of Eidolon's and the fact that you have to take then down with the Operator, I'm just not feeling that way. 

For now.

The design of the game is directed to a dangerous position. Operators will no longer be optional and will become mandatory, because DE wants us to use their toy
Wait a little time and check it out.

[Rehk-Sai]

Operators could be cool, but they have clunky controls, and underwhelming abilities. If they had more fluid movement, more unique movement abilities, and better skills then I could see them being a joy rather than a burden. Their void skills just lack umpf, style, and creativity. If we're going this route let's have something that is on par of other game's 3rd person mage classes imo.

[Hypernaut1]

Personally, I feel like the operators should've stayed as powerful void apparitions of mental energy. I liked the concept and look of the WF slumped to the ground with this powerful ghost coming out from inside of it changing the battlefield (in theory). It was an awesome visual to me and felt right from a lore/story standpoint. The operators just popping into physical reality just seems weird and unconventional. But maybe that's WFs schtick... Being weird. 

Gameplay wise, I thought transference worked because it gave you a breather and served as an ultimate super move (that need improvements of course). With physical operators, you were weakened with no real advantage. It was hard to actually WANT to use it.

All that said.... I'm starting to like the new focus. I use naramon and have actually found uses for the warrior operator in my combat.  Void dash open up entire groups to finishers and void blast confuses and disarms them. Operators finally have a good reason to break out mid combat. I like that they add a bit of technicality to game play. I'm coming to grips with it because it's their vision, not mine and it's shown some improvement.

What I want to see it's improvements in orientation when switching and WF becoming autonomous. We should be tag-teaming enemies now.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[AEP8FlyBoy]

52 minutes ago, Teloch said:

Basically, DE attempted to be too original with their extremely delayed decision to reveal the protagonists, which resulted in initial resentment that persists to this very day. But they refuse to give the players the liberty to not associate themselves with the pre-made protagonists, which causes even more distaste among players.

DE isn't refusing to give us the liberty to disassociate with our Operators, some players just don't like the idea of them at all.

I myself don't associate personally with the Operators but that doesn't mean that I dislike them. I've just always thought of myself as a badass bio-mechanical monstrosity that happens to love Kavats. My point is, players always have the liberty to choose how they want to associate with the game they play. Nobody/nothing is forcing you to associate with either party.

That's the beauty of a creative mind, just associate with it in a way that enthralls you specifically, not necessarily the way they want you to.

Edited October 18, 2017 by AEP8FlyBoy

[Hypernaut1]

3 minutes ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

DE isn't refusing to give us the liberty to disassociate with our Operators, some players just don't like the idea of them at all.

I myself don't associate personally with the Operators but that doesn't mean I dislike them. I've just always thought of myself as a badass bio-mechanical monstrosity that happens to love Kavats. My point is, players always have the liberty to choose how they want to associate with the game they play. Nobody is forcing you to associate either way.

That's the beauty of a creative mind, just associate with it in a way that enthralls you specifically, not necessarily the way they want you to.

 

What I don't like is how it makes my WF feel like it has less of a personality. The switching out makes then feel more like a simple tool instead of taking over the body of a great ancient Orokin warrior.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[Spartan336]

1 hour ago, Teloch said:

It would take an entire day for me to fully elaborate on my thoughts on the operators, so I'll be as short as possible.

1. Story

They are the pre-made characters with the backgrounds decided by the storyteller (Steve, I assume). This implies that they have made actions in the universe which were made because of writer's will, and not because of our choosing. DE insists that these kids are us in this fictional universe. BUT! By not having the options to compose the backgrounds of our avatars, the writer (Steve, I assume) projects their mortality and reasoning via the plot device on us, making our avatars do things or have the background we would not opt to have. This creates resentment. Very intense resentment. Examples:

Q: Would you commit the crime of betrayal of your side during the war conflict for any material or non-material benefits?
Me: No way. 

Q: Would you cause a violent upheaval, fully realizing the destructive consequences, and refuse to take control/responsibility of the resulted status quo?
Me: Na-ah

Q: Would you commit mass murder, acts of terrorism, kidnappings for the sake of material or non-material reward?
Me: Nuuuu!

Basically, the writer suggests, that our avatars (aka we) are as dumb as to fall under the influence of an insurgent spy, causing a violent rebel, that resulted in the collapse of the whole human civilization, numerous deaths, ensued "state of nature", and the total havoc, which we are trying to mend currently following orders of a self-imposed "parent", who orders us to commit genocide, terroristic acts, and kidnappings on daily basis for the sake of some mythical "balance" (read: conservation of the existent conflict for the sake of self-actualization and profiteering). Forcing own values on the audience is simply appalling. And the pre-made voice lines as well as the mental age of our presumed avatars make things even worse.

2. Customization

Yes, many people detest playing as kids, many really enjoy that, and even more are neutral. BUT! If you force people in the hides of kids, giving absolutely no alternatives, makes the people from the first group utterly upset. Knowingly ridding people of the decent options to customize their alter-ego isn't the best way to gain popularity or approval. So yeah, an option to set up the age or even *gasp* the mammary glands sizes would've mended the resentment some of the audience feel towards the operators. Even the ridiculous example - being able to slide between 12 y.o. baby and 18 y.o. greenhorn would make a lot of people happier about their freedom as players. 

3. Mechanics

Instead of some void-powered futuristic wizards, we control some second-grade grunts with limited mobility and samely limited arsenal. You wish to move like a tidal wave of fire and fury? use that punny space dash. You wish to throw fire and destruction left and right and to set the world on fire? You may want to opt that void fart blast thingy, or just use the Ember warframe. You wish to blow the heads of your enemies, splitting their brains all around the area while laughing like a psychotic PTSD soldier-child you supposedly are? Uhhh... we have a wrist squirt gun for you... And you can shoot a lazer beam, yeah... You wish to become a Wuxia -style grandmaster with all the swag, moves, and benefits? Too bad, because the focus schools are just embodiments of the strength / stamina / dexterity / intelligence attributes and function in the very same, mathematical way. 

This is what you call the wasted effort.

4. Highlight competition.

DE can't focus on improving both warframes and operators. Something must be in the center of their attention. Recently, the operators were encroaching on warframes territory, mostly robbing the latter of the benefits we all know about by privatizing the whole focus system. Those who are here to play warframes and not some template anime kids feel being forced to play as them. Kuva system also contributes to this feeling. 

 

Basically, DE attempted to be too original with their extremely delayed decision to reveal the protagonists, which resulted in initial resentment that persists to this very day. But they refuse to give the players the liberty to not associate themselves with the pre-made protagonists, which causes even more distaste among players. 

I hope that this post will not be perceived as some hateful writing or salt sowing, as I tried my best to maintain it intonationally neutral.

Every backstory is made to further the plot. I don't see the Operators backstory as a flaw that pushes people away since it's not that different from what other games do. The criticism here should probably be that they presented the Operator as you, but it's really not, and they shouldn't have done that. 

On 3, it's hard to not see this as a hateful post when you use language like that, but I agree for the most part. I don't agree it's wasted effort. 

There's no such thing as Warframe territory. And if you feel forced to play them, the only real argument you could make to that end is that you have to use them against the Queens, Kuva, on the Harrow quest. Eidolon's to, but as I've said, the plains are to far removed to be considered 'forced'. Kuva is only used for a few weapons and Rivens, I've already talked about that. The Queens and the Harrow quest are just 2 instances. There's no real force here. An argument could be made that they're heading in that direction, but until then, I don't see anyone being forced to play them. 

EDIT: I also don't feel like you properly understand the motivations for the Tenno betraying the Orokin. The Orokin had executed Margulis, who was their motherly figure. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to serve under the people who killed one of my close family members. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Spartan336

[AEP8FlyBoy]

5 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

What I don't like is how it makes my WF feel like it had less of a personality. The switching out makes then feel more like a simple tool instead of taking over the body of a great ancient Orokin warrior.

We still don't know whether that is the case or not. Warframes are still very mysterious in exactly how they function, and exactly how they reacted the way they did in the epilogue of the Second Dream is still up for debate.

There may very well be the detached and torn minds of certain beings, captured and locked away inside the Warframes, very much like the Cephalons. After all, the Orokin designed them both. What's to say that isn't the case here?

Edited October 18, 2017 by AEP8FlyBoy

[Hypernaut1]

5 minutes ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

We still don't know whether that is the case or not. Warframes are still very mysterious in exactly how they function, and exactly how they reacted the way they did in the epilogue of the Second Dream is still up for debate.

There may very well be the detached and torn minds of certain beings, captured and locked away inside the Warframes, very much like the Cephalons. After all, the Orokin designed them both. What's to say that isn't the case here?

I always felt that controlling a WF was to take on it's personality. I looked at them as more than tools, more than just picking up a different gun. I mainly came to this conclusion because of how each frame has its own stance and personality. If they were just tools, they would never act feminine or masculine, or scream or do a brooding stance. It would be uniform.

[AEP8FlyBoy]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I always felt that controlling a WF was to take on it's personality. I looked at them as more than tools, more than just picking up a different gun. I mainly came to this conclusion because of how each frame has its own stance and personality. If they were just tools, they would never act feminine or masculine, or scream or do a brooding stance. It would be uniform.

That's the really neat thing about Warframes. We've used them for this long, but still know barely anything about them or how they actually function.

That's why I'm really excited for "The Sacrifice" quest that is coming soon. I can't wait to see if any more lore is stated relating to them.

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

I don't mind the operators being in the game, I just don't want to play them. I find it annoying that enemies like the bumble guardian are only vulnerable to operator abilities "just because", it's not intuitive, makes zero sense, and simply isn't fun. I was totally fine with operators and their use after second dream, I don't care that they are kids and say dopey things (I find it amusing)...it was tww where things started going off the rail for me.

I dislike the context switch changing from frame to operator, so while transference seems less jarring in PoE (still need to try it for myself), it's also become more necessary outside of kuva missions; I'm certain I'll find Focus 2.0 irritating unless I give up on all but the passives.

A nice compromise might be to add a setting where you could choose whether transference causes the operator to physically manifest on the battlefield or just switches the frame abilities with the operator.

Not much point complaining, operators are here to stay, it's just a question of how much time I'll continue to invest in Warframe after my favorite franchise launches it's newest installment next year. I still think Warframe is an amazing game and I'm frequently impressed by everything DE's coders have been able to achieve.