Combat Operators and Mechanics that I find Disatisfactory

[Standoff25]

So this topic mostly revolves around Combat Operators and the mechanics of certain enemies that require Operators to deal with them leaving me dissatisfied with Operators and these mechanics in general.

Well me being dissatisfied might be putting it a bit too lightly about how I truly feel about Operators being used in combat and I am sure many of you share the same opinion while others perhaps not so much.

Just as a heads up I will be talking about other topics, so I may suddenly drop one for another but it is all interconnected to one another and I will return to it, it is me just summarizing many points at once giving you a bigger picture.

Also I do not fault you for having a different opinion in fact I welcome a different perspective so please be respectful I am not attempting to be rude I am merely stating how I feel on the matter at hand. This is just constructive criticism and suggestions that I think would improve the game nothing more nothing less.

Also just to those that aren't a fan of reading this is going to be a very long, long read I got a lot to say.

Alright enough holding off time to get into the topic.

Now, I know I may of given you guys the wrong idea about my personal opinion of Operators, and that I have hated them since they came out which really isn't the case. Up until the Red Veil quest I have had very little problems with Operators being in the game, I tolerated them cause they didn't affect gameplay too much. Even when War Within launched the only thing I did when you needed to use your operator to make the Kuva guardians vulnerable was to raise an eyebrow at such a thing.

Though in all obviousness enemies being basically immortal unless you follow certain steps or conditions to make them vulnerable is not only just an annoyance it is also a major bother. This in my opinion is not very good gameplay design when you generally have no idea how to damage or hurt them, especially when there is no clear instruction as to how. This is what I imagine many of you felt when you did the War Within quest when it came out including me. 

In my opinion enemies need to always be damageable and simple not having anything that makes them immortal such as the horrible idea to make Eximus units have armor you needed to shoot off to damage it. However if you want to make the enemy challenging give them a unique twist or ability that makes fighting them challenging and fun to fight not tedious or impossible to beat.

Though getting back onto the main topic at hand.

Operator Combat.

I will not lie to you guys I really dislike Operator Combat, for one the games focus has always been on the Warframes and like you guys I really enjoy something challenging and blood rushing I prefer to have that challenge when I am using a Warframe. This mechanic that revolves around operators just breaks the flow of combat for me taking a bit of a turn from Warframes usual high paced gameplay to a more sedate pace with Operator gameplay being non-entertaining or satisfying. Another thing that I dislike is how Warframes are being disregarded, for I always thought ever since I got into this game that it was the Warframes, powered by void energy were the main reason why the Sentients were pushed back. I would prefer that our Warframe powers be what clears the Sentients of their damage resistances, putting an emphasis on Warframe powers when dealing with this enemy perhaps even dealing greater damage to them than a standard enemy from other factions.

In general it would of been a rather simple thing to have done and energy would not be an issue since all your energy fills once you consume their cores. Of course there would be power spam with the Sentients unable to adapt of course I see that but it's an irony when you make them vulnerable to powers that are literally powered by void energy itself. But as it currently stands especially ever since I have taken down multiple eidolons I don't see how the Tenno could of pushed the sentients back leaving me feeling that there was a much effective method once employed or more aptly DE haven't thought of such a method yet.

This just reinforces the assumption that DE still don't know what direction they wish to take the game. It seems they are worried about the game being a horde based game but tell me what you think it you saw this vid from Quiet Shy.

This generally looks fun and I think this is one of Warframes strongest elements especially if you add in new enemies with unique or interesting twists etc, etc.

In general I don't see operators as any form of Warrior they are certainly not cut out for such things when the Warframes certainly are. And while I commend them on their attempt of trying to make a challenging enemy such as the Eidolons however it just feels more tedious than challenging along with being boring in my opinion.

For one I would like a return to Warframe Oriented combat rather than any form of Operator Combat or gameplay finding Warframe gameplay more fun and entertaining than Operator combat only having the Operator around for lore reasons and perhaps increasing our power or strength.

What do you guys think? Do you agree or disagree? Or do you see a way of improving or fixing this? Let me know by putting your reason as to why down in the comments I will try and reply to as many comments as I can.

[Jakorak]

*shrugs* I'm super excited to be able to fight effectively as an Operator and am working towards that goal from all angles. I take great glee in leaving everyone in the dust with my void dashing operator and being able to manhandle enemies with a diverse assortment of amps and operator abilities. I am super boggled by why DE thinks Focus needs to be a giant convoluted clunky mess of a grind though.

[TheWhitterMatter]

1 hour ago, Standoff25 said:

Operator Combat.

I will not lie to you guys I really dislike Operator Combat, for one the games focus has always been on the Warframes and like you guys I really enjoy something challenging and blood rushing I prefer to have that challenge when I am using a Warframe. This mechanic that revolves around operators just breaks the flow of combat for me taking a bit of a turn from Warframes usual high paced gameplay to a more sedate pace with Operator gameplay being non-entertaining or satisfying. Another thing that I dislike is how Warframes are being disregarded, for I always thought ever since I got into this game that it was the Warframes, powered by void energy were the main reason why the Sentients were pushed back. I would prefer that our Warframe powers be what clears the Sentients of their damage resistances, putting an emphasis on Warframe powers when dealing with this enemy perhaps even dealing greater damage to them than a standard enemy from other factions.

In general it would of been a rather simple thing to have done and energy would not be an issue since all your energy fills once you consume their cores. Of course there would be power spam with the Sentients unable to adapt of course I see that but it's an irony when you make them vulnerable to powers that are literally powered by void energy itself. But as it currently stands especially ever since I have taken down multiple eidolons I don't see how the Tenno could of pushed the sentients back leaving me feeling that there was a much effective method once employed or more aptly DE haven't thought of such a method yet.

This just reinforces the assumption that DE still don't know what direction they wish to take the game. It seems they are worried about the game being a horde based game but tell me what you think it you saw this vid from Quiet Shy.

This generally looks fun and I think this is one of Warframes strongest elements especially if you add in new enemies with unique or interesting twists etc, etc.

In general I don't see operators as any form of Warrior they are certainly not cut out for such things when the Warframes certainly are. And while I commend them on their attempt of trying to make a challenging enemy such as the Eidolons however it just feels more tedious than challenging along with being boring in my opinion.

For one I would like a return to Warframe Oriented combat rather than any form of Operator Combat or gameplay finding Warframe gameplay more fun and entertaining than Operator combat only having the Operator around for lore reasons and perhaps increasing our power or strength.

What do you guys think? Do you agree or disagree? Or do you see a way of improving or fixing this? Let me know by putting your reason as to why down in the comments I will try and reply to as many comments as I can.

Okay first of all, I totally agree with you on operator combat vs eidolon. It seems weak and rather pathetic. I honestly haven't even been able to kill a single eidolon with a group so I'm just a little tilted by that. plus it seems that in order to actually progress as an operator you have to kill the eidolon to get briliant sent. shards and stuff. I like fighting them, just for the sake of fighting them, but I feel it shouldn't be a bullet sponge if it was the warframes and maybe something else that killed them the first time. 

Second of all. Holy S#&$ that video is amazing. I really want to fight a horde of enemies like that. That is the true dream.

[Xaero]

Um... Is it a complete post? I was expecting a wall of text.

Well honestly, I don't feel like being forced to not use my warframe 99,9% of the game. 0,1% goes to Archwing missions I can do just once and never do them again, two quests that require playing as operator which I can do just once and never replay them again, and defeating Teralyst which I don't even have to do if I don't plan upgrading my Operator.

But I like both Archwing and Operator and use them oftenly.

To me the core problem of the game is enemy scaling system. It badly affects difficulty. It badly affect modding. It badly affects simple logic. IMO the game should get rid of enemy levels, rework the modding system to have mostly +/- stat mods and condition mods (do X to get Y buff for N seconds) as well as tone down percentage increase, introduce enemy tiers where at lowest difficulty you get mostly gunmeat and have your precious mindless horde shooter while at higher tiers enemies are more tricky and difficult to kill.

[KeLaRo]

i truly begin to love the operator when he/she was walking on cold snow huggying itself in War Within quest (ç_ç )

was so cute and real ! and expressive in any step.

now is like a supersayan  we are losing something.

 

i agree with OP.

 

Edited October 20, 2017 by KeLaRo
agree with OP

[Standoff25]

22 hours ago, Ksaero said:

Um... Is it a complete post? I was expecting a wall of text.

Well honestly, I don't feel like being forced to not use my warframe 99,9% of the game. 0,1% goes to Archwing missions I can do just once and never do them again, two quests that require playing as operator which I can do just once and never replay them again, and defeating Teralyst which I don't even have to do if I don't plan upgrading my Operator.

But I like both Archwing and Operator and use them oftenly.

To me the core problem of the game is enemy scaling system. It badly affects difficulty. It badly affect modding. It badly affects simple logic. IMO the game should get rid of enemy levels, rework the modding system to have mostly +/- stat mods and condition mods (do X to get Y buff for N seconds) as well as tone down percentage increase, introduce enemy tiers where at lowest difficulty you get mostly gunmeat and have your precious mindless horde shooter while at higher tiers enemies are more tricky and difficult to kill.

Depends on your definition on wall of text.

Not everyone likes reading so I kept it as short as I could, this only being the tip of the iceberg in comparison to what I wanted to write but still long by some peoples standards and I have had trouble with people not reading through full posts with them then posting saying I am wrong and they are right that it should stay the same or be this certain way. Anyway as for my issues with Combat Operator or Operators more active roll in gameplay is that I don't like how the Quill standing revolves around them not to mention you need the Operators to actually beat the new Sentient enemies with there being no other way around this. I joined the game for well Warframe and I am sure that's what many people joined the game for. Of course I still find the Operators interesting and I am not saying go to hell with them and all that. It's how DE is trying to build onto their character is the problem with me. Character building is important for any form of media for it influences the audiences like or dislike of a character or putting you into a characters shoes like the Operators. How they have gone about it in my opinion is the wrong way. Namely having them take a more active role in gameplay is something I don't like and is personally not my cup of tea especially when it deals with a new enemy such as the Teralyst that just becomes a chore after you take down one. While I don't speak for everyone on this I think there are a few kindred spirits who share my views on this. There are other better ways of character building they could of tried to build a better connection with our operators rather than actually using them in combat. 

I also get that they are trying to synergize Operator combat with Warframe Combat but I don't see much synergy here. Perhaps if they did a better job or did something different it might of changed my opinion but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Regardless I do agree with you on the scaling system with many in the past asking DE to fix it. Their solution.... Rivens. This is more of a band aid though not an actual fix and I don't think that they will at any point really try to address this issue for I think they don't really want to touch something as big as scaling for if they do touch that they would have to also touch modding as well as damage numbers which they could very well end up messing up which is one of their biggest fears. With their track record of reworks on certain Warframes in general I don't think it would be a good idea unless they decided to do testing for it asking for input from testers and tweaking it till it is satisfactory both balance wise and gameplay wise.

EDIT: I find the discussion portion more important anyway for it also gives a reflection on the communities standpoint on certain things which can also generate new idea's or concepts or how we feel about things do we like this or we don't that could give DE feedback if we want to see more of this or not.

 

23 hours ago, Jakorak said:

*shrugs* I'm super excited to be able to fight effectively as an Operator and am working towards that goal from all angles. I take great glee in leaving everyone in the dust with my void dashing operator and being able to manhandle enemies with a diverse assortment of amps and operator abilities. I am super boggled by why DE thinks Focus needs to be a giant convoluted clunky mess of a grind though.

Well if that's what you think that's fine I personally don't like the shift to Operators though and the fact that you can fight effectively without a warframe? That makes me a bit worried for I think that shouldn't be the case. Operator playing warrior feels a bit cheesy to me when they are much more effective Warriors in Warframes. It isn't just that but the Warframes are meant to be the Operators tools whereas the Operator now feels like a tool or weapon I don't want.

 

14 hours ago, KeLaRo said:

i truly begin to love the operator when he/she was walking on cold snow huggying itself in War Within quest (ç_ç )

was so cute and real ! and expressive in any step.

now is like a supersayan  we are losing something.

 

i agree with OP.

 

Uh? Could you go into more detail you might of lost me for I don't quite know your stance on Operators.

 

23 hours ago, TheWhitterMatter said:

Okay first of all, I totally agree with you on operator combat vs eidolon. It seems weak and rather pathetic. I honestly haven't even been able to kill a single eidolon with a group so I'm just a little tilted by that. plus it seems that in order to actually progress as an operator you have to kill the eidolon to get briliant sent. shards and stuff. I like fighting them, just for the sake of fighting them, but I feel it shouldn't be a bullet sponge if it was the warframes and maybe something else that killed them the first time. 

Second of all. Holy S#&$ that video is amazing. I really want to fight a horde of enemies like that. That is the true dream.

Touching more on Eidolon combat.

Personally I have been able to kill multiple Eidolons with only myself and another person as well as in groups of three or four and still I find the fight disappointing. It just goes through the same stages kill shields, rip limbs off, then regen shields. It feels like a boring chore where at first it was cool then it just gets repetitive and soon becomes a snooze fest. 

It just makes me feel like DE are holding off on us for lore wise it was the Warframes with the Tenno being their power source that turned the tide against the Sentients and I got to wonder how that is even possible if this is the process we have to go through. 

If they really want to challenge us make bosses or certain enemies unpredictable where you have to use either cunning, trickery or some form of strategy to take them down making them change things up a bit as things progress rather than making them bullet sponges or generally being undamageable. Another thing they could of done to have made the Eidolon/Teralyst fight fun is if it became desperate and went into a berserk kind of state were it flails around erratically trying to kill you in a desperate bid to survive. If they want to make things fun or make it more engaging they should simply change things up making certain enemies behave erratically to keep us on our toes and the edges of our seats.

I don't know about you but if I was a Grineer and a buddy of mines head suddenly imploded I don't think I would be able to keep cool in such a situation. 

That's just an example not the best one but gets the same point across.

Also I hope it isn't just me but I often see that people forget that challenge and entertainment are also interlinked where killing something powerful should feel like an accomplishment or rewarding in a sense with this being pretty much non-existent in Warframe as it is.

Regardless enough about that.

About that video.

When I saw that my jaw literally dropped. I could not believe that was actually a bug but it was. I hope that DE can find a value in this bug like some of us do and if they do decide to make this bug a reality it wouldn't be the first time a bug, something unintended became an actual concept with this being something I think a lot of us would find extremely fun and I dream of the day such a thing can happen. 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2017 by Standoff25
Correcting some stuff

[KeLaRo]

@Standoff25simply the operator was more real when he begin his apparition inside Warframe Lore. In 2nd dream is helped by a warframe for walk, in war within he suffer about cold when Orbiter crash..... now is just too strong. 

 

[Ash_of_Narmer]

10 hours ago, Standoff25 said:

If they really want to challenge us make bosses or certain enemies unpredictable where you have to use either cunning, trickery or some form of strategy to take them down making them change things up a bit as things progress rather than making them bullet sponges or generally being undamageable. Another thing they could of done to have made the Eidolon/Teralyst fight fun is if it became desperate and went into a berserk kind of state were it flails around erratically trying to kill you in a desperate bid to survive. If they want to make things fun or make it more engaging they should simply change things up making certain enemies behave erratically to keep us on our toes and the edges of our seats.

Are you a computer programmer for game designer...? Do you have even the slightest clue as how difficult and time consuming that kind of programming is?

Do you also have this same complaint with other games? Because most games have boss enemies that fight this way, following a certain pattern. That statement is only valid if your argument carries over to all the other video games you play with bosses like this.

[TheWhitterMatter]

Keep in mind that this is just the FIRST open world map. They are going to learn so much from this and integrate it into future updates. Also e guess I should expect our operator damage to be relatively low since this is the start of a whole new type of game play. It has a ton of potential for expanse. One thing I'm annoyed at is I don't see my operator stats anywhere. Also the new operator focus system is interesting, but I can't see it holding up well vs high damage content later on in the game. Can we get mod slots for the armor things the operator gets? Is there any point to having increased armor if the operators don't have much armor anyway?

As far as the eidolon boss goes, yeah it's hella boring. I'm having more issues with the tiny Eidolon vs the big one. The big one you just shoot at it and it doesn't really fight back.

[Standoff25]

14 hours ago, KeLaRo said:

@Standoff25simply the operator was more real when he begin his apparition inside Warframe Lore. In 2nd dream is helped by a warframe for walk, in war within he suffer about cold when Orbiter crash..... now is just too strong. 

 

Thank you for clarifying. Yes they are too strong now in combat for you can honestly engage enemies at roundabouts level 45 with a unmodified amp with very limited trouble whatsoever with me not liking what you could do once you fully mod it. It's odd that there is a system like this for the Tenno are the literal heart and power of the Warframes and having such a thing exposed is like showing everyone your hand in a poker match which is not a smart move.

12 hours ago, Mataeru said:

Are you a computer programmer for game designer...? Do you have even the slightest clue as how difficult and time consuming that kind of programming is?

Do you also have this same complaint with other games? Because most games have boss enemies that fight this way, following a certain pattern. That statement is only valid if your argument carries over to all the other video games you play with bosses like this.

No I am not a computer programmer or game designer however I do think I do have a general idea how difficult it is and time consuming such a thing is. Not many are aware that Computers can't do anything unless you program it to complete a certain task such as how to calculate math or physics or how to account for time etc for computers are not learning machines, these things require you to in a sense teach it how to do so which becomes another problem. Computers run on pure logic needing explicit instructions to produce the result you want where we don't need to be told to do something to actually do it. As an example replace a human brain with a computer now you have to program it with basic functions to actually keep the body alive such as keeping the heart beating but it would require you to actually input more instructions such as proper heartrate and the voltage required which requires instructions on how to do so, along with which nerves to use how to send signals to nerves and more.

So yes programing is a nightmare with it requiring a tremendous time to lay the foundation down but I am getting off topic. I do in fact have some games that do come to mind that have lackluster boss fights. However I also have games that don't have bosses that follow the same patterns which doesn't make my statement invalid it's like saying apples are oranges while disregarding any sort of point that states that isn't the case. Saying that my statement is invalid just because I play other games with bosses that change behavior shouldn't matter. Just because something is the way it is doesn't mean it should be or it can't change.

I recommend the Doom boss fights for it will take a lot of time getting through all of Bloodborne's bosses however they give great examples of boss behavior with any future bosses in Warframe having something similar but perhaps not as drastic when their attacks change up or their behavior changes. You can ask anyone and you will find that bosses are not aggressive enough with me thinking that these examples would be a boost to those very same bosses that didn't have much going for them in the first place. We even see a little of this in Vay Hek and his Terra Frame where there is a shift in attack and behavior however it still lacks the aggressiveness that the fight for any and all bosses of Warframe need. I would even be happy if they did this with any planned or new enemy units as well. 

Stop watching at 14.42 for Doom to prevent spoiler to games ending.

I am not saying that it needs to be just as difficult I am just saying that I would rather work for it in a way that is satisfying to do rather than having phases they go through that ends up with them being invulnerable or having something that takes an eternity to accomplish.

Though I do like Tyl Regor mainly due to his dialog than anything else. 

5 hours ago, TheWhitterMatter said:

Keep in mind that this is just the FIRST open world map. They are going to learn so much from this and integrate it into future updates. Also e guess I should expect our operator damage to be relatively low since this is the start of a whole new type of game play. It has a ton of potential for expanse. One thing I'm annoyed at is I don't see my operator stats anywhere. Also the new operator focus system is interesting, but I can't see it holding up well vs high damage content later on in the game. Can we get mod slots for the armor things the operator gets? Is there any point to having increased armor if the operators don't have much armor anyway?

As far as the eidolon boss goes, yeah it's hella boring. I'm having more issues with the tiny Eidolon vs the big one. The big one you just shoot at it and it doesn't really fight back.

I know this is their first attempt but it doesn't hurt to give input or suggestions either. As for Operators I am not fond of them in gameplay and would rather opt out of anything operator based personally. As for actually modding Operators and all that I think that would start pushing the thing aside that has defined the game since it was released the Warframes. I do not want to be forced to use my operator in gameplay with me dreading a slew of operator focused content in the future and that is honestly already starting to demotivate me. Making such content a requirement to progress further in the game which it probably will eventually might actually make me and possibly others leave warframe which is the last thing I or anyone wants.

It is mainly down to the fact that I enjoy fluid, seamless gameplay which is already provided for me with the Warframes with operators disrupting such gameplay for me. There is no synergy with operators and warframes either, I might of found them less agitating if that was the case but it is a clunky system that I dislike a lot with there being no alternatives to simply bypass it.

As for the Eidolon you would think their would be more variety to such a fight with this thing but I guess they didn't get time to add such things or it was overlooked. Regardless it is a shame how much of a farm POE is a good update just doesn't live up to the expectations set for it, hopefully that is eventually amended and addressed in this map and the next.