DMR 2.0 please?

[Rekkou]

DMR in a games meant for rifles that bridges Assault Rifle and Sniper Rifle. More powerful than assault rifle, weaker than sniper, more magazine capacity than sniper, less than assault rifle, etc. This mean Latrons, Grinlok, and you can count Sybaris varaints and Tiberon as well. Unfortunately DMR balance in warframe are quite underwhelming when compared to either of them. Here are the problems.

1st problem : Magazine Size

AR in warframe have above average magazine capacity, basic Braton has 45 rounds, the lowest is Karak with 30, but the rest can reach 60, 75, even 100+. If you average the magazine capacity of Braton and Vulkar, Latron should get 25, but all Latron variants only have 15 at most. The most you can get is Sybaris Prime/Tiberon if you want to count them as DMR, but even then in practicality, both of them only have 10 shots due to burst fire nature.

2nd problem : Damage

Sniper rifles have been buffed several times, being the in between, DMR should be buffed as well. Yet DMR have never been touched since damage 2.0. Even Attica, Lex and Lex Prime got buffed. Braton deals 20, Vulkar deals 220 not counting crit stats. Latron should deal at least 80-100 damage. The only decent DMR is basically just Sybaris Prime/Dex Sybaris

3rd problem : Hybrids

Lately, DE have been introducing hybrid weapons like Stradavar, Tenora, Zenith, and Argonak. While Stradavar is underwhelming, it's also another proof why DRM is underpowered. Stradavar is the first hybrid, it's probably designed to be "not as good as both DMR and AR, but can be both", but because it was balanced to be weaker than DMR, it's semi auto is weak, while its auto is pretty weak as well. The rest are done right, but these rifles also highlight DMR's weakness. Tenora's alt-fire basically deals 230 damage, has good crit stats and have 10 magazine size. Zenith's alt fire deal good damage, has good crit stats, infinite punch through and while it has much lower fire rate, it's still basically a DMR with 90 rounds magazine, Argonak's alt fire only has slightly lower damage than Latron Wraith but it has 43 rounds magazine almost tripled than Latron Wraith.

 

Proposed balance :

Latron

Spoiler

Damage : 55 -> 80

Crit chance : 10%->15%

Magazine capacity : 15->18

Latron Prime

Spoiler

Damage : 85 -> 100

Crit chance : 15%->25%

Magazine capacity : 15->20

Latron Wraith

Spoiler

Damage : 55->80

Magazine capacity : 15->25

Grinlok:

Spoiler

Crit chance : 15%->25%

Magazine capacity : 6->10

Tiberon :

Spoiler

Damage: 60->70

Crit chance : 5%->15%

Magazine capacity :30->45

Stradavar

Spoiler

Semi auto :

Damage : 50 ->60

Crit damage : 2X->2.5X

Fire rate : 1/2->3/4 of Auto

Lower recoil

Auto :

Damage :28->30

 

[Blade_Wolf_16]

I do agree that most semi-auto ARs and alt-fires are pretty weak in comparison to regular ARs, Snipes and even semi-auto pistols ((Ak)Lex Prime, (Vaykor) Marelok, Pandero, etc.).

I never really used the Latrons, but I do enjoy my Stradavar a lot, even if the Status Chances are ridiculous and the damages are pretty low. It would be nice if the alt-fire wasn't a "backup" for the primary fire tho. Semi-auto mode has relatively good crit, but the base damage and crit damage aren't enough to make it worth using that much unless you want to headshot in the plains, which isn't that good of an idea. It's kinda like old Oberon, a mix of many things but in this case, there isn't much in the recipe. The Argonak has decent crit and reduced recoil in semi-auto and very nice status in auto, yet the Stradavar has medium/good crit chance, not much damage and incredibly weak Status in both fire mode.

The Grinlok has 0 recoil, which is nice for headshots, except that the precision of the gun ins't that much better than some other weapons, and no match for many Corpus weapons with pinpoint accuracy like the Opticor, Dera and Lanka. Also, unless you have the Augment, the crit chances are pretty weak. 

The Tiberon simply needs a buff. I vote for Status rather than crit, personnaly. I think it would be better like that, since better crit with the 60 base damage would cause the devs to reduce something, I think, and not just the disposition, but that's just me.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Blade_Wolf_16
Typos

[Lost_Cartographer]

I'd like to suggest the Burston Prime to the mix.  It's basically an inferior Braton Prime. 

I'm in agreement that a lot of the semi-auto/burst rifles need help.  A LOT of weapons need help really, but the burst/semi-auto's especially.  Low ammo counts, mediocre damage, long reloads, low fire rates.  If you're going to use a semi-auto precision weapon, look into a secondary.  Burst weapon, find an automatic primary with similar stats.  Chances are it will have overall better stats.

The Argonok makes a better Latron Prime than the Latron Prime.  Mind, it's giving the Braton Prime a real run for its money too.  It's just sadness.

43 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

The Tiberon simply needs a buff. I vote for Status rather than crit, personnaly. I think it would be better like that, since better crit with the 60 base damage would cause the devs to reduce something, I think, and not just the disposition. 

Someone seriously needs to point me to the evidence that the developers directly control weapon disposition as opposed to some system that gauges usage time and adjusts things accordingly.  There are simply too many weapons to manually adjust disposition.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

1 hour ago, Littleman88 said:

Someone seriously needs to point me to the evidence that the developers directly control weapon disposition as opposed to some system that gauges usage time and adjusts things accordingly.  There are simply too many weapons to manually adjust disposition.

I don't really know if it's automatic or manual, and I don't care that much, but I do remember that they changed some dispositions in the past. I think it was the Aklex (when Aklex Prime came out).

[Rekkou]

13 hours ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

 

I used to enjoy Stradavar, modded with Vile Acceleration, you can spam the semi-auto because it has good magazine size. And the auto's fire rate is so fast you can pop nullifier's bubble easily. But the balance pass nerfed it for me, the semi auto recoils are to severe, while the auto damage is nerfed.

 

12 hours ago, Littleman88 said:

 

DE's power creep problem works extra on burst and semi auto because they are so rare. If these weapons are as common as AR, we'll at least get new burst or semi-auto rifle that are on par with current weapons. But they're so rare and the AR power creeps keeps going to the point we got AR that power creeped DMR.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Doesn't Zenith count as DMR for semi Auto

And Tenora to DMR charge-shot style

 

Side-note Shouldn't Zenith Semi-auto have No Damage Fall-off on POE because of Infinite Punch-through???

[Attel_Malagate]

Good point, snipers are now outclassign DMRs by a long shot, when I look at the Grinlok and the Latron, I really feel like they could use some critical chance, I'm fine with their damage but 15% crit chance is just way way to low to make them viable.

[Madinvent3r]

I can't agree more they're pathetic weapons. Like beginner MR 3 weapons. I also feel a lack of real marksman rifles that are semi auto. Wheres my DMR style 20 round rifles???

[Ada_Wong_SG]

Just recently returned to this game, The Stradavar is kind of among my favorite now due to it's versatility.

I remember modding a rapid fire latron at earlier MR because the lack of a maxed serration
and tuning a latron to rapid fire is cheaper than making a maxed out serration and fitting it on a braton.
While having slightly more firepower as most of the mods aren't complete.

With the sniper buff, Latron, Grinlok, Sybaris or even the Burston and Tiberon feel out of place in this game
Because I can mod a Vectis to reload rapidly and it kind of serves as a more powerful Grinlok/ Sybaris.

And Burst fire is kind of like lever action, except there is no animation between shots.

Stradavar is what I would imagine to shine in most situations, since you can use it like a DMR to shoot distant target
and when the need arises switch to auto and mow down crowds.

A strange thing I noticed is the damage fall-off, when you equip a sniper rifle, and preview other weapons 
you can read the damage fall-off of different weapons.
Currently the DMR, Latron, Sybaris, Grinlok all have the same damage fall off as ARs

I would suggest giving weapons a damage fall off range as an additional stats, which will regulate the weapons
within it's use.

It doesn't mean once a weapon is Sniper Rifle it has a 400 - 600 damage fall off range etc.
But individual weapons within a Class can have different damage fall off range.
like a 7.62x51 on a M40 is suited for 800 - 1000m kill,
a .338 lapua from a L115A1 can reach 1200 -1500m,
a .50 BMG from a M107 can reach 2500m

a DMR typically has longer effective range than an Assault Rifle, but aren't high enough accuracy
for long range shot required for a Sniper Rifle

The "effective killing range" of sort of individual weapons can be their unique stats. 
That makes individual weapons have different "optimal kill range".

This might make magnum pistol like Lex, Marelok have longer range than
lets say Lato or Furis.

It would also make buffing a weapon to be OP within short range, but useless at longer range
Kind of like what the sub-machine guns in secondary slot is lacking.

there can be mod that makes range adjustment...

Heavy barrel - +10% range per rank

Corrupted mod be like -
Jacketed hollow point 
- 5% range + 15% damage per rank

This might give more option to modding a long range rifle while sacrificing a mod slot,  or getting more damage by sacrificing range for close combat missions.

Modding a pistol into a carbine with extended range hunt in POE or shortening range for damage. 

This might be a variation to heavy caliber and magnum force that would add diversity to modding.  

Edited November 3, 2017 by Ada_Wong_SG

[Siekier]

Yeah, it seems DMRs are in a rather bad spot as of now in Warframe.

 

There aren't many options to choose from if you want to use a rifle that's supposed to be accurate and hard hitting.

Latron "family" feels really underwhelming. Basic Latron is very limited for obvious reasons (being a beginner weapon and all), but what about the rest?

Latron Prime has problems with inconsistent damage due to only 15% crit chance. Crit modifier of 2.5x is solid, but with 37.5% crit chance (with Point Strike) it doesn't feel reliable. It would be fine on a rapid fire weapon with a much higher RoF and magazine size, but not on something that's supposed to function as a precision rifle.

On a plus side, it has decent status chance of 25%, but it suffers from proc dillution and low RoF and capacity.

Latron Wraith? More reliable crits, decent status but it needs more damage. 55 is too low for this weapon type,and it shows. Weapon starts to struggle against lvl50 Corpus when using Toxin on a crit build.

 

Another problem Latrons have is the reload time. 2.4 seconds really feel a bit long,especially considering you only have 15 shots to work with (which don't hit as hard as they should).

 

Stradavar is a pseudo-DMR in a sense, and its performance is also lacking, though I'd say it's not that much of an issue in this case.

I haven't tried the Zenith or Argonak yet, so I can't say anything about them.

 

My point is, currently weapons that are supposedly filling the DMR role are underwhelming. They have too many drawbacks that aren't balanced out by the effectiveness of those weapons.

What I think they need:

- damage increase - be it flat damage or crits, it needs to be reliable.

- shorter reload / increased magazine size - especially for Latrons and any future weapons of this style, 15 shots for 2.4s reload is simply not enough

- powerful sounds - Latron Prime has this pathethic "pew pew" sound. Wraith isn't much better. They should have a lot more "oomph" in their sounds, they're supposed to be powerful, right?

 

I think that making DMRs better would be greatly appreciated now that PoE is out and we have more possibilities of long-range combat in Warframe. DE has shown that they can do a good job of bringing some older weapons on par with newer ones (Sicarus Prime, Panthera etc), so I'm hoping that it can be done.

[Ada_Wong_SG]

 

 

The problem I guess DE is facing currently is using damage stats to determine a weapon class

For example
Furis will never get close to the damage that a Braton does because it is a secondary weapon.

Latron and DMR will not out class sniper rifles because the damage is what distinguishes
the 2 classes apart other than crit and status.

This give a weapon ladder that is completely based off damage stats 
and no overlapping can be done, rendering weapons like Furis a sub-par weapon
because it is basically discounted Braton with poor damage.

I guess what can be done is capping effective range, after which a weapon suffer damage drop off
and other weapons out-perform them.

Meaning a Furis can be equal if not more powerful than a Braton upclose, 
but it's effective range being a sub-machinegun is capped at lower value.
Where Braton can reach longer range than a Furis.

A Latron have longer range than Braton and assault rifles.

Meaning it can reach out and hit enemies with assault rifle and
the enemies simply is out of range to effectively return fire.

One thing that recently got updated is the effective range of Sniper rifles.

Controllability, Fire Rate, Firepower and Effective Range is the 4 criteria a lot of real world firearms 
is designed to balance around. Since longer range = more recoil = less control on full auto.
More control usually means less firepower.
a sub machine has high firepower, high control, high rate of fire
but suffer from the range it is able to hit.

An Assault Rifle is designed to be balanced between the Sub Machinegun and the Battle Rifle
which most fighting took place at medium range.
 

 

Edited November 4, 2017 by Ada_Wong_SG