Covert Lethality needs to go, or get reworked.

[(PSN)Fairfied]

On 10/24/2017 at 8:40 AM, Hixlysss said:

Covert Lethality is, due to limitations on swearing, a horrible mod. It's potentially the worst melee mod ever in warframe. We JUST got a new dagger stance, is anyone really going to care when we have Covert Lethality which makes every finisher kill 100% lethal? Dagger rivens are completely worthless because Covert Lethality exists. It almost reaches the point of "Why use any other melee? Covert Lethality makes it so everything dies!" 

Now aside from just out right removing the mod there are fixes that can be done, simply replacing the part of the mod that makes finishers lethal with either a simple boost to finisher damage, like 200%, or have every melee hit with it have a chance to open the enemy up to a finisher. Or even both. Just remove the 100% lethality from the mod, please.

Side note, make Covert Lethality, once changed, apply to dual daggers as well.

Disagree, strongly.  Not even going to bother reading all the other posts, here's my reasons why I think it should stay:

1.   It can only kill 1 on 1, and only if you execute a finisher.  This is what limits and balances it.  This is what makes it non-viable for
      endurance survival or defence runs, you just can't kill fast enough while using it, unless you synergise in a clever way with team
      mates.

2.  We need more options for dealing with extremely high level enemies, not less.  

3.  For the stance that can incorporate its effect, the combo is very unreliable, so its not as if you can confidently go non-stealth and
     expect to pull it off all the time.

4.  It does not make daggers the only melee weapon worth using.  Other weapons have different advantages, for example another
     weapon might offer more damage/crit/status/slash/and of course range.  It's the matter of figuring out the best tool for the job you
     are doing at the moment.

5.  It actually requires skill, knowledge, experience, and a good load-out to make it work really effectively

6.  DE please don't remove Covert, veterans appreciate its worth and its function, I think you've been over catering to the new
     players, look after us for a while!

[Maka.Bones]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

While your heart is in the right place,, your math is off. Covert Lethality adds 100 base damage, this is true, but it does not stack with Pressure Point. It is additive to pressure point, like Mesa' ballistic battery or Energy Channel. Thus is it sometimes more powerful than pressure point.
On the finisher side, it actually works like people are saying. It's a guaranteed death to an enemy of any level. You can get a unranked sheev, put on Covert Lethality, and kill a level 9999 guy. Tested and proven in the tennogen challenge and through my various endurance runs. The only reason why enemies like juggarnaut don't die from it is because they have a DPS fluctuated damage gate. This means that they have a damage cap to how much damage you can do, which Covert Lethality cannot get around. It use to be able to get around it and 1 hit KO it, but this was changed some time ago. If covert lethality worked as you say, then even in level 5 missions, it would be dealing millions of damage. The truth is that it scales off of the enemy's health.

While I agree 150% on your premise, I don't think Covert Lethality really changes it THAT much. As you said, any team with half a brain can go endgame. I personally resent anyone who uses Octavia, Banshee, or CL Dagger Ivara to do it, because I think it's too simple a combo. No hard math, no interesting mechanics. If you told me, you used a nezha to go levelcap, then you have my full respects,but when you ask any team what frames combo they used, you'll hear either banshee, octavia, or if they went solo, it was either ash or ivara with a CL Dagger.
Now when it comes to performance though, the kill rate of a CL dagger team, an equinox team, or even an octavia team still won't completely outpace the team comps I have, that take unique mechanics, a lot of skill, and cooperation with my math to do. So performance wise, it doesn't change anything. It's just a matter of the legitimacy of their performance, which at this point doesn't matter because DE will never admit that level 100 is too low for us now, due to all the power creep they've introduced. Buffing player performance and increasing the level enemies they play? Progression. Buffing player performance to keep fighting the same enemies over and over? Power creep. So since there is no reward for these type of players, I guess the issue is made null and void.

If DE ever decides to expand the levels of daily content, like I've been saying for years, then maybe we can finally get ourselves some ACTUAL equal play and balance.

Yeah you might want to try your tests again, because I've had mobs survive a finisher stroke from my rakta dark dagger, with primed pressure point, covert lethality, and fury. This wasn't a juggernaut, they were grineer. 

 

Try it--only use CL, fury, and P. Pressure point. It *doesn't* automatically kill anything.

A full combo however, does do millions of damage on anything. Not just high lvl mobs. 

 

Nice try btw. Max possible lvl of enemies in warframe, is 5,000. 

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Mr.SpookSpook]

What is up with all the pumpkinheads begging for things to be nerfed without having any kind of basic understanding about how those things really work in the game?

[Afte3rDark]

I agree, [Covert Lethality] needs to go. All daggers (and dual daggers) should have lethal stealth attacks by default.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

8 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Yeah you might want to try your tests again, because I've had mobs survive a finisher stroke from my rakta dark dagger, with primed pressure point, covert lethality, and fury. This wasn't a juggernaut, they were grineer. 

 

Try it--only use CL, fury, and P. Pressure point. It *doesn't* automatically kill anything.

A full combo however, does do millions of damage on anything. Not just high lvl mobs. 

 

Nice try btw. Max possible lvl of enemies in warframe, is 5,000. 

 

I can guarantee you have no idea what you're talking about, but here are the facts. I've taken CL with me using Inaros just about everywhere. With this combo, I would be dealing exactly the amount of damage as the enemy's health. This is how I was able to test how much health a certain level grineer has. Don't believe me? Here's the proof.
https://instacalc.com/42286 this is a calculator that uses warframe's health, armor and shield scaling formulas to give you the exact numbers of what health an enemy would have at a certain level.
http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Juggernaut: Here's the wiki of a juggernaut. Their base level is 15 and their base health is 3500.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6kt5396GwE: Here's a link of a guy 1-hit ko a level 125 Juggernaut. Now note you cannot do this to the juggernaut anymore, but this video is a perfect example of my premise. In the video, he deals 638,750 damage to the juggernaut.
If you go back to the instacalc, you'll see that at level 125, a juggernaut has...wait for it....638750 health. Coincidence?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewQml0ehPY0 Here's a video of a guy going up against a level 85 Corrupted Heeavy Gunner, who the wiki and codex tells us has a base level of 8 and a base health of 700. Put this into the calculator, and you'll see that she has 62,954.5 health, or rounded in game to 62,955. Skip to 0:35 of the video and you'll see. How much damage does it do? 62955. And he was using fatal teleport, which is suppose to boost the damage of the dagger. This is no longer a coincidence. IT's just how it works.

And about the highest level in warframe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1IL8W-Zano

 

This guy reached Level 9999 with his Ivara and CL Dagger. I personally have reached level cap before on the old interception maps using my squad of friends.

I have played this game too long and have done too much to not know what I'm talking about. You may have joined during the War Within, but us vets have endured the rigors of this game long before. I wish level 5000 was able to be reached like you said, since that's what the dev build simulacrum is able to go up to, but this is not the only mission. You have not played this game that long, so you may not remember, but before you joined, this happenned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03qOCJUYaGY

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[Maka.Bones]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I can guarantee you have no idea what you're talking about, but here are the facts. I've taken CL with me using Inaros just about everywhere. With this combo, I would be dealing exactly the amount of damage as the enemy's health. This is how I was able to test how much health a certain level grineer has. Don't believe me? Here's the proof.
https://instacalc.com/42286 this is a calculator that uses warframe's health, armor and shield scaling formulas to give you the exact numbers of what health an enemy would have at a certain level.
http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Juggernaut: Here's the wiki of a juggernaut. Their base level is 15 and their base health is 3500.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6kt5396GwE: Here's a link of a guy 1-hit ko a level 125 Juggernaut. Now note you cannot do this to the juggernaut anymore, but this video is a perfect example of my premise. In the video, he deals 638,750 damage to the juggernaut.
If you go back to the instacalc, you'll see that at level 125, a juggernaut has...wait for it....638750 health. Coincidence?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewQml0ehPY0 Here's a video of a guy going up against a level 85 Corrupted Heeavy Gunner, who the wiki and codex tells us has a base level of 8 and a base health of 700. Put this into the calculator, and you'll see that she has 62,954.5 health, or rounded in game to 62,955. Skip to 0:35 of the video and you'll see. How much damage does it do? 62955. And he was using fatal teleport, which is suppose to boost the damage of the dagger. This is no longer a coincidence. IT's just how it works.

And about the highest level in warframe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1IL8W-Zano

 

This guy reached Level 9999 with his Ivara and CL Dagger. I personally have reached level cap before on the old interception maps using my squad of friends.

You're using calculators, and you're using full setups.

Go with Ivara, to sedna's exterminate mission. Use nothing but a rakta dark dagger, fury, primed pressure point, and covert lethality. Do it, then tell me it kills every enemy. You'll have many enemies that you won't be able to kill with just a single finisher blow. 

 

TRY.IT.YOURSELF. Don't just spam me with meaning links, calculators and videos, and crap that's only telling me that you have no actual/personal experience. I don't need your proof, because this is literally what I did to level up/forma my rakta dark dagger. I already know first hand that it does not kill anything with one hit, unless you have a full build tailored around it. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

You're using calculators, and you're using full setups.

Go with Ivara, to sedna's exterminate mission. Use nothing but a rakta dark dagger, fury, primed pressure point, and covert lethality. Do it, then tell me it kills every enemy. You'll have many enemies that you won't be able to kill with just a single finisher blow. 

 

TRY.IT.YOURSELF. Don't just spam me with meaning links, calculators and videos, and crap that's only telling me that you have no actual/personal experience

I have tried for myself. That exact setup is my so-called (slow build) for missions, expect I use Primed Fury. Those videos are all the proof I need. If you actually look at it, you would see. If you want someone to try it for you, go do it right now and send some screenshots of your build and damage, then we can talk. Otherwise, you have no proof, while I have given you the exact math and explanation to it with in-game proof. Doesn't have to be by my hand. Also, explain how a full setup changes the fact that every kill shown happens to do the exact amount of health as the guy shown.

I mean not to offend, but I'm a math guy. I have done the math to this game to a point where it can be made into a book. (I do have a notebook pretty thick, and I've lost many of my noted). I'm just trying to stop misinformation from spreading.

Edited February 20, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[Maka.Bones]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I have tried for myself. That exact setup is my so-called (slow build) for missions, expect I use Primed Fury. Those videos are all the proof I need. If you actually look at it, you would see. If you want someone to try it for you, go do it right now and send some screenshots of your build and damage, then we can talk. Otherwise, you have no proof, while I have given you the exact math and explanation to it with in-game proof. Doesn't have to be by my hand.

I mean not to offend, but I'm a math guy. I have done the math to this game to a point where it can be made into a book. (I do have a notebook pretty thick, and I've lost many of my noted). I'm just trying to stop misinformation from spreading.

You obvously haven't tried it yourself.

Heavy gunners require 2-3 finisher strikes to kill. So do bombards, napalms, and the crazy cat dude. *Edit* if you're only using fury, CL, and pressure point (even primed version)

Math only works to build up a theoretical foundation. It's meaningless without actual application. You want me to make a video? Fine, i'll make one tonight after I get off work. Atm, I need to get ready for my job. That should shut you up. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

1 minute ago, Maka.Bones said:

I mean not to offend

"Im going to say something arrogant, that implies i'm better than you, therefore I don't need to listen to your argument. Please don't feel bad though."

 

^what that sounds like when it's used. Ppl don't use that in real conversations, because it often sounds condescending. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[(PSN)Crixus044]

47 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

You obvously haven't tried it yourself.

Heavy gunners require 2-3 finisher strikes to kill. So do bombards, napalms, and the crazy cat dude.

Math only works to build up a theoretical foundation. It's meaningless without actual application. You want me to make a video? Fine, i'll make one tonight after I get off work. Atm, I need to get ready for my job. That should shut you up. 

I look forward to you showing all of us that everybody is wrong but you, with an actual video that shows the build, and the kill, with covert lethality, rolled into one. A simulacrum test may prove it, and if this video does not come out, I will consider your theory proven false. If math is so pointless to you, why was your original post filled with a wall of it, with no screenshots? Why did you have no video proof? I gave you video proof.

You have not disproven my math. Math is the foundation this game is built upon. It's all numbers. Your original post simply claimed numbers, that were proven false. Unless you have actual math with actual game-play to back up the original math you put, your premise is false.

Edited February 20, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[Maka.Bones]

48 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I look forward to you showing all of us that everybody is wrong but you, with an actual video that shows the build, and the kill, with covert lethality, rolled into one. A simulacrum test may prove it, and if this video does not come out, I will consider your theory proven false. If math is so pointless to you, why was your original post filled with a wall of it, with no screenshots? Why did you have no video proof? I gave you video proof.

Never said math is pointless. I said it's pointless without application. 

[Maka.Bones]

Also, none of those videos were done by *you* so no, not proof

[Maka.Bones]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I look forward to you showing all of us that everybody is wrong but you

You seem to be purposefully ignoring all the other players who have told you the exact same thing that I've said. You also have a very condescending tone. This isn't a democratic debate. Also chill, I already said that I'd upload a video when I'm off work.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

34 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Also, none of those videos were done by *you* so no, not proof

 

19 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

You seem to be purposefully ignoring all the other players who have told you the exact same thing that I've said. You also have a very condescending tone. This isn't a democratic debate. Also chill, I already said that I'd upload a video when I'm off work.

 

35 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Never said math is pointless. I said it's pointless without application. 

Here's a video of a guy using a Sheev against level 120 corrupted bombard eximus.
Read the damage numbers.
With a fully maxed build and covert lethality, he did 60,840 damage.
With Covert Lethality as the only mod on, he did 60,844 damage. The only reason why there's a difference at all is because the first time, he let inaros 1st do some damage on him before the finisher.
The health of a level 120 Corrupted Bombard: 60,852
Lol
Are you saying thaat this is not proof just because I personally did not click the buttons?
I'm sorry, but this is just how it is.

Edited February 20, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

Heavy gunners require 2-3 finisher strikes to kill. So do bombards, napalms, and the crazy cat dude. *Edit* if you're only using fury, CL, and pressure point (even primed version)

Sorry man, but there has only been one enemy that I haven't been able to kill in one shot with any CL dagger.  That was the Juggernaut during the times when it was immune to finishers.  

Also, Enemies do go higher than lvl 5000.  The max is actually lvl 9999.   I myself have killed lvl 9999 enemies in one hit with CL dagger during the Lotus event that spawned nothing but lvl 9999.  

I will admit that I don't like using CL because it's somewhat boring to use for long periods of time. 

[Maka.Bones]

50 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

 

 

Here's a video of a guy using a Sheev against level 120 corrupted bombard eximus.
Read the damage numbers.
With a fully maxed build and covert lethality, he did 60,840 damage.
With Covert Lethality as the only mod on, he did 60,844 damage. The only reason why there's a difference at all is because the first time, he let inaros 1st do some damage on him before the finisher.
The health of a level 120 Corrupted Bombard: 60,852
Lol
Are you saying thaat this is not proof just because I personally did not click the buttons?
I'm sorry, but this is just how it is.

No, that video does make it seem broken. I wonder if it's something to do with inaros/pocket sand. But I haven't had that experience when I used it with ivara/sleep arrows. 

 

Like I said, I'll make a video tonight. If you're right I'll post it, embarrass myself, and concede that you're correct. If not, well my point will be made. 

[Maka.Bones]

18 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Sorry man, but there has only been one enemy that I haven't been able to kill in one shot with any CL dagger.  That was the Juggernaut during the times when it was immune to finishers.  

Also, Enemies do go higher than lvl 5000.  The max is actually lvl 9999.   I myself have killed lvl 9999 enemies in one hit with CL dagger during the Lotus event that spawned nothing but lvl 9999.  

I will admit that I don't like using CL because it's somewhat boring to use for long periods of time. 

If I recall correctly, when DE_Reb did the devstream--showcasing volt's rework--she said that the max stats enemies can have based on the game engine, is for lvl 5k enemies. Anything past that would be essentially the same stats.

[DatDarkOne]

44 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

If I recall correctly, when DE_Reb did the devstream--showcasing volt's rework--she said that the max stats enemies can have based on the game engine, is for lvl 5k enemies. Anything past that would be essentially the same stats.

See you didn't say that earlier.  You said the max possible lvl was 5000.  Which is much different than saying the max enemy stats is lvl 5000 even though the lvl limit is higher.  It's a very important detail to leave out.  

[Maka.Bones]

14 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

See you didn't say that earlier.  You said the max possible lvl was 5000.  Which is much different than saying the max enemy stats is lvl 5000 even though the lvl limit is higher.  It's a very important detail to leave out.  

Right, well that's what I meant lol. I mean true, that's a good point, but if the stats are the same then anything above lvl 5k is still essentially lvl 5k

 

My bad for not being more clear tho

[(PSN)Crixus044]

3 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

If I recall correctly, when DE_Reb did the devstream--showcasing volt's rework--she said that the max stats enemies can have based on the game engine, is for lvl 5k enemies. Anything past that would be essentially the same stats.

 

2 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Right, well that's what I meant lol. I mean true, that's a good point, but if the stats are the same then anything above lvl 5k is still essentially lvl 5k

 

My bad for not being more clear tho

Actually while that premise is correct, they were conversing about the simulacrum limits, not the actual game limits. This was tested very thoroughly by my friends and I.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvSn4IlpTbI in this mission, you can clearly see the ivara hitting a moa for 89,964,064 damage to his health, displayed in the yellow  (minute marker 6:05). Checking through the base level of a Moa and his base health (Level 1 = 60 robotics) his health at level 9999 is 89,964,063.60, so the numbers line up.

To further add to this, just to make sure that was not a special instance, https://youtu.be/X1IL8W-Zano?t=1305

At this 21:45 minute marker, a corrputed ancient is killed at level 8734, being dealt 457,592,088 damage. Looking at the level scaling calculator, that enemy has exactly 457,592,134 health, so this shows that the stats scaling goes past 5k.

Edited February 21, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[Maka.Bones]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

 

Actually while that premise is correct, they were conversing about the simulacrum limits, not the actual game limits. This was tested very thoroughly by my friends and I.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvSn4IlpTbI in this mission, you can clearly see the ivara hitting a moa for 89,964,064 damage to his health, displayed in the yellow  (minute marker 6:05). Checking through the base level of a Moa and his base health (Level 1 = 60 robotics) his health at level 9999 is 89,964,063.60, so the numbers line up.

To further add to this, just to make sure that was not a special instance, https://youtu.be/X1IL8W-Zano?t=1305

At this 21:45 minute marker, a corrputed ancient is killed at level 8734, being dealt 457,592,088 damage. Looking at the level scaling calculator, that enemy has exactly 457,592,134 health, so this shows that the stats scaling goes past 5k.

I believe that it is possible to do more damage to an enemy, than it's max hp. 

Howelse do you explain 50mil crits on lvl 100 mobs?

 

The damge done doesn't provide proof, that enemy stats scale higher. Plus DE_Reb wasn't talking about the simulacrum. She specifically mentioned the game engine/level cap for *the game*

[DatDarkOne]

21 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I believe that it is possible to do more damage to an enemy, than it's max hp. 

Howelse do you explain 50mil crits on lvl 100 mobs?

 

The damge done doesn't provide proof, that enemy stats scale higher. Plus DE_Reb wasn't talking about the simulacrum. She specifically mentioned the game engine/level cap for *the game*

Actually, Covert Lethality does the exact amount of damage needed to kill the enemy and not more than that.  This is regardless of all other stats and mods on the weapon.  So, it is a good way to see the max health of enemies.

[Maka.Bones]

2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Actually, Covert Lethality does the exact amount of damage needed to kill the enemy and not more than that.  This is regardless of all other stats and mods on the weapon.  So, it is a good way to see the max health of enemies.

Again, I must disagree. But w/e I'll just make the vid when I'm off work, and find out for myself.

 

Honestly where TF do you guys get this info from? Lol that's not at all what the mod says. 

[DatDarkOne]

44 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Honestly where TF do you guys get this info from? Lol that's not at all what the mod says

The mod does kinda say it.  It say's "Lethal Damage on Finishers".  It just doesn't explain in full detail on the Mod's description.  The wiki actually gives more detail.  http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Covert_Lethality

Notice the Bugs section at the bottom of the wiki article.  :D

When you've being playing, reading experiences of other players in forums, and checking the Wiki for over 2 years, you tend to learn interesting things about the game that just aren't written in descriptions in the game.  For example: the game doesn't tell you exactly what Prowl's headshot bonus is or how it's applied.  

Edited February 21, 2018 by DatDarkOne
added additional detail

[Maka.Bones]

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

The mod does kinda say it.  It say's "Lethal Damage on Finishers".  It just doesn't explain in full detail on the Mod's description.  The wiki actually gives more detail.  http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Covert_Lethality

Notice the Bugs section at the bottom of the wiki article.  :D

When you've being playing, reading experiences of other players in forums, and checking the Wiki for over 2 years, you tend to learn interesting things about the game that just aren't written in descriptions in the game.  For example: the game doesn't tell you exactly what Prowl's headshot bonus is or how it's applied.  

I'm pretty sure that prowl has the headshot damage multiplier, in the power's description. I mean, I remember seeing it lol

*Edit* I see what you're saying with the bugs section. Well again, I'll find out when I make the vid lol

Edited February 21, 2018 by Maka.Bones