The Nova Fix To Keep Everyone Happy

[Katsuni]

Something people in betas need to keep in mind:

Keeping your hardcore players happy doesn't honestly mean all that much. As soon as they hit level cap or another game comes into beta they're gone. They don't spend money to "look pretty", and they don't buy in-game cash. They grind stuff out and consider it a badge of honour to get to the top rankings without having spent any money to get there. In short, they are a financial dead end. These are the people who feel nova is fine, because she's pretty much balanced at top tier play, providing useful utility and a bit of damage.

 

Your casual players, however, tend to blow tons of cash on things like potatoes, or on colour sets, or pretty wings for their sentinel. They are also the ones who are chain running defense missions at level 20, and stop after wave 10. These are the people who are getting pissed off that they can't actually play the game; many of these people only get an hour or so to play games a day, meaning they log on, sit down to relax, and get pissed that all they did was sit there and watch stuff burn while they didn't even press any buttons, then their team all cashes in on wave 10 and they didn't get crap for exp, nor mods, items, and all they walked away with is a bad taste in their mouth.

 

Which of these groups is ideal to cater to if you have to pick one or the other? In short... it's not the people saying "she's fine, L2P NOOB".

 

Now, for a more ideal method of adjusting how she works, I'd honestly just say have her deal a 100% of a target's current life as base damage; this base damage is then mitigated by armour. Multiple explosions reduce the target's health even lower, making them easier to finish off, and so long as a target has at least 10 armour, she physically can't kill them. Ta-da, she's now a bit more useful at higher level play, and can no longer insta-gib low level targets before anyone else even gets to fire a shot. Everyone's happy, and both groups are well catered to.

 

You don't have to choose one or the other, but if they're going to choose one of the two, I guarantee you that it'll be the casuals over the hardcore every time if they want to still be in business by next year rather than bankrupt. Keep this in mind when making any future arguments. If the casual players are pissed, they will supersede all arguments the hardcore players have to say. Look for a middleground that keeps the newbies/casuals happy, and doesn't bother the hardcore group too much.

[fatpig84]

M Prime is already affected by armor

Play till you hit level 90 enemies where M Prime only serves as a debuffing tool then we talk further.

 

P.S. I am sitting on 4k plat. And I am hardcore by any definition.

That is how much I spent on this game, but I don't even use it to buy much conveniences at all.

Edited July 27, 2013 by fatpig84

[RoboDoge]

MP should have same nerf as Nyx Chaos have. Give it cooldown time and you fixed Nova.

[Numot]

A big issue of catering to casuals is you risk making a lower quality game overall. It runs a risk of marketing mediocrity. I don't know about you, but I rather play an great game than an okay one.

 

Just about every ult will blow up trash in low level runs. The only thing that sets Nova apart is the scale at times. Even then it takes high concentration of enemies for max effect, otherwise its not really that different from any other ultimate nuke.

 

People need to stop getting in a fuss about something else being able to do what they can. Saryn was the original nuke, with miasma, people got in a fuss over Rhino having a good stomp, now people are mad about Nova. In a co-op game of all things. When you have a Nova on your team you should be happy you have a good offensive asset for dealing with hoards, it means you can bring more defense, or have a focus attacker. You shouldn't be like "oh they are gonna get all the kills *humph*" like some spoiled child.

[BioBoostedKururu]

Or they can play solo then nobody can KS them and let people who appreciate Nova's usefulness go beyond wave 15 on def or fighting mobs under level 65. 

[ValhaHazred]

Actually your wrong on several levels.

a) FTP models point to the hardcores as the big spenders while casuals tend to drift from game to game spending very little money. I'm not saying cut them out entirely, just that your reasoning is flawed.

b) The Hardcores are the only people I'm aware of that try to go beyond 15 in any defence map I've ever played. What you are describing is a PUG issue, not a player's hardness.

c) XP is shared equally between everyone in the instance and Mods and Items don't go away after being picked up by one person.

d) 100% damage reduced by armour is terrible. Many enemies can get up to 99% armour. Doing 1% of their health is the worst thing ever.

[Feldgrep]

Nova is fine. She is a glass cannon, as she is meant to be. She can deal tons of damage, but can't really take any. And yes, play T3 void missions. MP looses effectiveness as chain reactions very swiftly. Also, your definition of hardcore players is off. I've bought 2 color packs, and all the sentinel accessories, and a helmet or 2. I also bought vauban and nova. But I am in the top 1500 last i checked, so I think I would qualify as either no-life or hardcore.

[Katsuni]

M Prime is already affected by armor

Play till you hit level 90 enemies where M Prime only serves as a debuffing tool then we talk further.

 

P.S. I am sitting on 4k plat. And I am hardcore by any definition.

That is how much I spent on this game, but I don't even use it to buy much conveniences at all.

Yes, I realize that level 90 enemies M Prime does crap all for damage. That's why I was suggesting a buff to it at later levels; please read thoroughly before commenting snidely =P

 

Nova could use a slight nerf at lower levels; enough to let other players press some buttons, shoot their guns, play the game. Setting it to a %-based damage, means she can never kill an enemy from her ultimate alone, which ensures that there will be no further complaints about her damage being too high. It doesn't matter how high it is, so long as other people get to help out.

 

On the higher end of the game, you want your players who are on level 90-130 content to get a little bit more out of nova, because at that point her damage is negligible, and yes, I have run level 90+ defense missions; it's kind of sad to see how fast your damage output drops off. As long as armour is applied, you're honestly only looking at about 15% of Nova's damage getting through per explosion, which is not much at high levels. If that's 15% of their health total, however, and can hit multiple times, it's a reasonable boost given the high health totals at that point. In short, Nova will get a nerf at lower levels, and a buff at higher levels to make her a little more of what people want in general.

 

And while there will be hardcore players who spend a ton on platinum, these are moreso exceptions rather than the rule in virtually all cases. The #1 largest market in gaming right now is females aged 25-40 playing free-to-play games. This is why every single free-to-play game out there emphasizes primarily focusing on the cosmetic upgrades. There are a few who try to cash in on the obsessive hardcore players who will spend $10,000 on a game, but there's not enough of those out there to realistically sustain a company long term if the company has more than 5-6 people on the dev team.

 

In the case of hardcore vs casual players, 80%+ of your income will come from casual players pretty much guaranteed, unless you chase all of the casuals off entirely, such as games like Utopia or Ragnarok Online, which are kind of prime examples of what happens when you're left with only your hardcore players left.

 

Actually your wrong on several levels.

a) FTP models point to the hardcores as the big spenders while casuals tend to drift from game to game spending very little money. I'm not saying cut them out entirely, just that your reasoning is flawed.

b) The Hardcores are the only people I'm aware of that try to go beyond 15 in any defence map I've ever played. What you are describing is a PUG issue, not a player's hardness.

c) XP is shared equally between everyone in the instance and Mods and Items don't go away after being picked up by one person.

d) 100% damage reduced by armour is terrible. Many enemies can get up to 99% armour. Doing 1% of their health is the worst thing ever.

 

A: Only applies to FTP models once they're released. So long as they remain within beta, the reverse is true and will dictate word of mouth interest, as well as pay for the remainder of development. This post is in direct reference to beta testers, but thanks for the clarification for anyone reading ^.^

B: This is true, and kind of my point. Your low level players will not be seeing the part of the game where the enemies will live past the original nuking phase where Nova (and several others) can burn them to a crisp. At higher levels, say wave 30+? No big deal. Once enemies start hitting levels 80+ then you'll get plenty of time to shoot, so it's no big deal later on. For what your casuals see, however, it's kinda bleh.

C: The point is more so that you may have noticed many people end up quitting the game as soon as they see a Nova, or annoyed that they won't go past wave 5 for example, where everyone just wants out of the game.

D: Closer to 85-95% dependant on the enemy, but I get the point. Even so, a % health loss is still significantly greater than the current 1600 flat damage under the same circumstances, since as soon as an enemy hits 1600 health, they're on par, and any health beyond that is a pure upgrade in damage output. However, it might also be worth looking into a partial armour negation based upon enemy level, but that would be more of something to look into for ALL damaging abilities, not just Nova's ultimate. After awhile, all those damage spells are kinda pointless as it is, and only armour piercing weapons really matter. I'll put some thought into how to work around that =3

[Inez]

C: The point is more so that you may have noticed many people end up quitting the game as soon as they see a Nova, or annoyed that they won't go past wave 5 for example, where everyone just wants out of the game.

Never noticed that. Most people are happy to see a Nova in defense games. Fast and efficient leveling and mod collection.

I can see where YOU might leave at wave 5 since YOU thought xp and mods aren't shared. But most people by the time they get to Xini have learned how the game works.

[Blezz]

The first 2 paragraphs were the most senseless ones i've read so far in 21 years. Congratulations!

[RoboDoge]

And someone should answer this: Why people think Nova is the damage dealer? She doesnt have direct damage abilities and her ult can be triggered by anyone. Longer i play with her, i keep realizing that she is more support than damage.

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

And someone should answer this: Why people think Nova is the damage dealer? She doesnt have direct damage abilities and her ult can be triggered by anyone. Longer i play with her, i keep realizing that she is more support than damage.

Two of her abilties do direct damage, one of which can oneshot pretty much anything in the game right now. If you think mprime is support then I don't know what to tell you, because exploding everything in a room is far from being a support ability. Or is saryn support too? What about ember?

 

Geeze I guess frames like trinity and loki aren't actually support frames either :V I wonder what they are? I guess trash, lets just remove them from the game since they're not frost or vauban.

[Katsuni]

Never noticed that. Most people are happy to see a Nova in defense games. Fast and efficient leveling and mod collection.

I can see where YOU might leave at wave 5 since YOU thought xp and mods aren't shared. But most people by the time they get to Xini have learned how the game works.

Personally, I don't have a problem with Nova myself. I like it when a run goes smoothly and easily, and Nova's great for clearing out early waves which puts me in a better position in later waves to be of use since I normally prefer late bloomer characters. I recognize her purpose and what she does; I have no qualms with her gameplay on a personal level.

 

However... she's frustrating a lot of the lower level players to the point that they're quitting games when she's found in them. This... is not good design; a player should be hostile towards enemies, not their allies. There's several warframes in the game currently that kinda bug a lot of people.

 

Trollban is probably a bigger problem than Nova right now in general, but Nova's the more blatantly obvious issue at the moment, rather than the largest "real" problem. Other issues are things like frost's snowglobe blocking allied attacks, the absurd range on soundquake when modded, Saryn in general, and a few other problems that should probably be looked into.

 

Basic design dictates that players should gain a positive net gain of enjoyment when playing both with and as any given character in a game. Bad design is when you introduce elements which are fun for the person playing that character, but detract from the fun of others in the game. This is why Darius is a bad design in LoL, for example - he's not overpowered... if anything he's considerably underpowered, but his design is set up in such a way that the only person having fun in a game with Darius, is the Darius player himself.

 

Nova's not on nearly as bad of a scale as that; Darius irritates both allied and enemy players - Nova mostly just annoys lower level newbie players. Even so, this is enough that players are becoming hostile towards their allies, rather than the enemies in the game, and that's something that broke down at the design phase, and can be remedied at the design phase by taking player psychology into account.

 

We're in a beta for the sake of testing that beta so we can improve upon it. Our goal is to identify things that make the game less entertaining than it could be, and propose solutions to help make it better. There is a distinctive problem here for some players that needs to be addressed, so I'm addressing it, despite that it doesn't affect me personally.

 

Don't assume that I'm doing this because I'm throwing a tantrum personally, nor attempt to insult me for dealing with an issue that you're supposed to be helping with by playing the beta. Whining that it's only a problem to lower end players still means you're accepting that it's a problem for lower end players, and as a beta tester, it's your responsibility to try to help identify ways to make the game more fun for everyone, not just yourself.

 

Nova needs to be looked at. Saryn needs to be looked at. Lots of frames, abilities, and various issues do. As such, if you can see things from a perspective other than your own, try to help the people who are having issues with such fix these things at an innate level, rather than blaming the people who are frustrated for being frustrated in the first place. If you can't do that, then at least review options which are suggested, and try to ensure that they both help the people they affect, and also don't cause further problems for yourself.

 

Nova's not "too strong"; you know that and I know that. At higher levels, her damage output drops to almost zero relative to enemy health/armour, meaning she can't even fulfill the high damage "glass cannon" role she supposedly has.  She is, however, capable of prepping entire groups on defense missions to be 1-shot at lower levels, and that's clearly irritating many players. A simple solution is to buff her damage output at higher levels, while allowing her to cripple enemies at lower levels without killing them.

 

Everyone SHOULD be happy, and I see little reason for anyone to be upset with the basic concept of this fix, as it makes her more effective at her designated role in the areas she's failing at, and prevents her from inflicting negative net enjoyment on the lower level players in the process.

 

Instead, we get this weird situation where people get annoyed that, how dare anyone have a problem that I don't have! They must be noobs, and therefore their opinions don't count!

 

It's a rather silly mindset to have, and not one that's all that beneficial in a beta tester =P

[Winterbraid]

So to sum up your statement, and do correct me if I am wrong: New players might be annoyed that someone is killing things faster than them.

 

This is not a problem. This is an inherent feature of any multiplayer game with RPG elements. And let me list several reasons as to why it shouldn't be seen as something that needs to be "fix."

 

1. Advanced players will always be more effective than newbies, regardless of their frame. Otherwise there is no point in having RPG elements. At the same time, completely preventing old and new players from mixing is also bad because seeing old players gives new players something to aspire to. If you don't want to be carried, don't play with players more advanced than you; it's not rocket science. Another thing is, some players want to be carried because that way they can experience the high-end content sooner.

 

2. In a class based game, some classes have to be inherently better at damage dealing than others from the get-go. Otherwise there's no point in having a class system at all.

 

3. Damage dealing classes will naturally appear to be more effective than others in low-end content, especially if they are overgeared. (Which Novas generally are because it's mainly the already advanced players who got her first.)

 

4. AoE nukes will always have a place in Warframe because they are the substitute of an explosive weapon in a game that often pits you against overwhelming enemy numbers (and where the actual explosive weapons are hidden behind prohibitive amounts of grind). They have to be able to kill large numbers of weak enemies quickly because that's the whole point of explosives.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Winterbraid

[Katsuni]

So to sum up your statement, and do correct me if I am wrong: New players might be annoyed that someone is killing things faster than them.

Missed the mark a bit =P

The statement is closer to "New players actively have been already stating they're annoyed that some warframes can push one button and clear entire waves on their own, while the other 3 people sit there and do nothing, being bored and not allowed to play the game at all."

 

It's not an issue of killing stuff faster than them, it's more an issue of player impotency, where they feel like there's nothing they could have done to have changed the situation. They couldn't fire faster, aim better, or do anything "better" than the other person who pressed their ultimate button.

 

Now, your points all make valid sense in and of themselves, and I'm not arguing against them. I have no issue with some damage dealing classes doing more damage, or even doing absurd amounts of damage. Keep in mind that the solution I'm offering would basically deal something like 95% of an enemy's life in damage or so at lower levels, which is still kind of absurd. The difference, is simply that the other players besides the Nova (or the Saryn, or the Banshee, etc, etc; I'll get to those ones in other posts) will actually get to do something other than AFK or be bored out of their skulls, and that's an important distinction.

 

Your points are actually all valid, and I'm not arguing any of that. I just agree that the newbies are in a situation where 1 newbie gets a "Kill everything" button, and the others get bored of playing the game and quit because they're not doing anything. That's something that seriously needs to be looked into.

 

I personally think Nova could probably use a slight buff, especially against higher level content in terms of damage so that she isn't a one-trick-pony only good for some CC utility but too squishy otherwise. I also think that her utility shouldn't be almost 100% pointless, if her utility never takes effect if everything's dead. A middleground where she's more useful on both damage and offense across the level spectrum, rather than pure damage at low levels, and pure utility later on would be nice is all. I hope you can agree with that assessment ^.^

[ValhaHazred]

Missed the mark a bit =P

The statement is closer to "New players actively have been already stating they're annoyed that some warframes can push one button and clear entire waves on their own, while the other 3 people sit there and do nothing, being bored and not allowed to play the game at all."

Who are these new players?

The comments I see when playing Nova are stuff like "Nova? Sweet!" or "What was that? It looked awesome/powerful!"

I have literally never seen anyone complain about having me in a cell.

A: Only applies to FTP models once they're released. So long as they remain within beta, the reverse is true and will dictate word of mouth interest, as well as pay for the remainder of development. This post is in direct reference to beta testers, but thanks for the clarification for anyone reading ^.^

B: This is true, and kind of my point. Your low level players will not be seeing the part of the game where the enemies will live past the original nuking phase where Nova (and several others) can burn them to a crisp. At higher levels, say wave 30+? No big deal. Once enemies start hitting levels 80+ then you'll get plenty of time to shoot, so it's no big deal later on. For what your casuals see, however, it's kinda bleh.

C: The point is more so that you may have noticed many people end up quitting the game as soon as they see a Nova, or annoyed that they won't go past wave 5 for example, where everyone just wants out of the game.

D: Closer to 85-95% dependant on the enemy, but I get the point. Even so, a % health loss is still significantly greater than the current 1600 flat damage under the same circumstances, since as soon as an enemy hits 1600 health, they're on par, and any health beyond that is a pure upgrade in damage output. However, it might also be worth looking into a partial armour negation based upon enemy level, but that would be more of something to look into for ALL damaging abilities, not just Nova's ultimate. After awhile, all those damage spells are kinda pointless as it is, and only armour piercing weapons really matter. I'll put some thought into how to work around that =3

A) Warframe is an open beta. It's one of the top 10 most played FTP's in the world right now. The standard models are in full effect.

B) What are casuals doing in content they can't handle in the first place?

C) This was an issue looooong before Nova was released. It's an issue because it's more efficient to farm by hopping in, breaking all the crates, and quickly doing the 5 easy waves.

D) On this I'll cease commenting on just 'cause I'm not totally sure how armour works, just that it scales badly.

[dave021]

 

 

Trollban is probably a bigger problem than Nova right now in general, but Nova's the more blatantly obvious issue at the moment, rather than the largest "real" problem. Other issues are things like frost's snowglobe blocking allied attacks, the absurd range on soundquake when modded, Saryn in general, and a few other problems that should probably be looked into.

 

Wait Saryn in general?

I hope you are talking about contagion being worthless and venom being random when you are not the host. If you are saying shes OP... dear god.