Atlas Rework with Suggestions

[MuscleBeach]

1 hour ago, thunder-fart said:

Here some of my suggestions for changes

Landslide:

-doesn't provide health immunity while casting anymore (because it is abusable)
-now does provide cc immunity while casting
-now multiplies atlas Base Armor by 250%/500% via landslide combo counter
-melee combo counter affects total armor

Also his base armor is increased to lets say 800.

I'm ok with these Landslide changes except with a few tweaks to the parts I bolded. Adding Armor to his combo counter, if implemented, would have to go in as his passive and lose our current one (i'd be ok with this even though his passive is his second best skill). Otherwise, it'd be a rather sloppy addition. 

A base armor increase or the +armor with Landslide counter but not both. Admittedly I'm not good at judging the effectiveness of armor. So to have both sounds like too much to me but I could easily be wrong. Also, pretty similar to my proposed augment mod. There are so many ways they can add some defense between his punches... They just need to pick one and do it. It doesn't matter which one just do it lol. 

1 hour ago, thunder-fart said:

I would rather make the boulder part useful.

I'd be ok with doing this but I don't think your suggestions achieved making ti more useful. Picking up walls on any frame is more of a cool addition as a bonus mechanic that doesn't really affect much (and shrapnel walls are kind of in the same boat to be completely honest). Adding those things would be cool, but wouldn't really make him any better. The damage increase needs to be pretty big, especially if it's going to take setting up a wall, spending energy twice, and both times costing more than a punch to do the same affect for about the same distance. 

 

I actually think keeping a wall in his kit is not good. It fits his theme but it doesn't fit his playstyle. He is a mobile frame and giving him something stationary does not fit that well. I'd rather go straight to charging up a ball for X amount of time and throwing it for some damage and CC potential, like previously suggested by someone. I kept the wall idea in my suggestions as a compromise. I figure if we completely change every ability, DE won't listen to our suggestions. So i kept the wall and added the rumbler theme to it, something that can move around with us when we don't want the wall anymore. This is also why I'm not a fan of healing walls. You usually don't care to stand behind it for more than a couple seconds (revives and hacking consoles). Just roll it and cast it again or just remove the wall ability with something else. 

So I agree with your Landslide changes but not Tectonics. But if they added in a little survivability anywhere on him, they wouldn't even need to touch Landslide.

 

Here is my build for Reference:

Atlas

http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Atlas/t_30_3420000020_2-5-10-3-8-5-6-6-5-19-7-10-55-0-5-57-1-5-59-3-3-411-2-10-615-9-5-648-4-3_55-6-57-8-411-8-59-9-648-9-2-12-6-11-19-14-3-18-615-9_/en/1-0-39/0/f

Venka Prime

Link isn't working for some reason. Four Riders, Spoiled Strike, Primed Pressure Point, Fever Strike, Shocking Touch, North Wind, Primed heavy Trauma, Collision Force, Drifting Contact.

Edited October 28, 2017 by MuscleBeach
Added my build

[MuscleBeach]

18 hours ago, MuscleBeach said:

I appreciate the time you took to critique my ideas! :)

19 hours ago, (Xbox One)Nex the Slayer said:

The proposed change to the petrify ability is broken. Too broken. Again a like the concept, but petrifying EVERY enemy around you would be ridiculous.

You're right, it's too strong as is. It's the ability I was most worried about as being broken. 

 

Let me know what you think of these changes. Petrifying strength would stay the same that it is now, which is capped at +25% strength at a value of 1. 

 

Adjusting based on your feedback:

Petrify Strength: Stays just as strong as the current Petrify we have. I don't dare touch this complicated part of the mechanic. With other useful abilities, you won't be trying to maximize this anymore, which makes Landslide weaker.

Petrify on death trigger range: reduced from 10m to 5m. This results in enemies having to die very close to you to trigger the Petrify at all. Still can't be affected by mods.

Petrify Range: Reduced from 20m to 8m (I think this is the broken part). Affected by mods. (20m at maximized range, 40% Strength).

Petrify Duration: Keeping at 10 seconds. Petrify currently does 20 seconds base so i think this is more than short enough, especially since you need strength to petrify things quickly and range to reach far enough to matter. (25.9 Seconds maximized duration, 46% Range (<4m))

Energy Cost: Changing from 10 energy per trigger to 7 energy per enemy not already stoned. Refund of 50% of energy spent per target hit that is immune to full stoning (some enemies can't be stoned but can be slowed by petrify). Energy cost affected by mods. (Maximized 75% cap=1.75 energy per enemy in range that's not fully stoned already, 40% Duration (4s) or maximize while sacrificing as little duration as possible, 70% 2.1 energy per enemy, 50% duration (5s))

Conclusion:

Strength works as it does currently. You need strength to turn people into stone quickly.

Death Trigger range makes CC only trigger able when you kill in melee range. 

Petrify Range: Reduced to close range, roughly sliding distance I believe, maybe even less. Further enemies will not be hit without modding. 

Petrify duration: Lasts half the time of current petrify and about as long as most CC skills.

Energy Cost: I think this is pretty energy intensive even before this change. This change may actually be too much energy to be useful without sacrificing everything else.I'll play around with specific numbers later and update.

 

My attempt to break the ability (biggest choice is Overextended, 90% range at the cost of 60% Strength):

Steel Charge, Vitality, Steel Fiber

Cunning Drift, Stretch

Primed Continuity

Fleeting Expertise

Intensify

2 open slots ( or only 1 with Overextended)

 

Duration 90% 9 Second stoning

Efficiency 160% 2.8 Energy per enemy within range

Range 160% 12.8m (20m with overextended)

Strength 130% Stone strength capped at 1 (0.56 with Overextended, 0.752 with Augur Secrets in last open slot for biggest str bonus left without a negative)

 

Do you guys think this is still broken? Also keep in mind that stone strength diminishes with distance. So even with a bunch of range, you're not doing the full effect to everyone. And I doubt you'll be able to spam landslide with this on but maybe melee weapon builds could finally have a fun option. 

[FreeWilliam]

2 hours ago, MuscleBeach said:

I actually think keeping a wall in his kit is not good. It fits his theme but it doesn't fit his playstyle. He is a mobile frame and giving him something stationary does not fit that well

A lot of frames have a couple of powers that are more static that tend to get pulled out when there's something to protect or an area to control.

Maybe instead looking at that but also designing in a way that mod choices feed into the playstyle make sense?  I think that's probably part of DE's process (and if not then you're one step ahead!) If efficiency and strength with a duration penalty worked for mobile builds and duration and range with a strength penalty worked fine for defense missions then you can also design cleverly around those choices like (this is admittedly silly and off the cuff, but I think it kind of illustrates things well) if the rumbler became large, fast, and single target with positive power strength but maybe became low damage, sturdy, and multitarget with negative (or multiple little rumblers).

Lots of room to play with the concept and that's probably not the most refined example, but I bet if you guys designed to adjust to both playstyles then it'd be more of a next-level rework!

Edited October 28, 2017 by FreeWilliam

[MuscleBeach]

4 minutes ago, FreeWilliam said:

but I bet if you guys designed to adjust to both playstyles then it'd be more of a next-level rework!

That is what I tried to do with my tectonic changes. It's still a wall but recasting allows it to be something not stationary as well. Maybe the wall portion needs a buff in my suggestion? How about it's a curved wall with the capability to surround you with enough range modded. Atlas can do one of those cheesy little spins where he drags his finger tips on the floor and a circular wall pops up. This way you get more quality coverage rather than being exposed from every single angle except one. 

[MuscleBeach]

Tectonics seems to have the most suggestions. So I'm going to layout all the ideas we've had. Let me know if I missed some or want to add to it.  

I would like to make this more of a vote to see what the community wants. Provide any feedback you wish or create your own idea and pick that in your vote.

Voting should look like this (really wish we could make polls): Track A1 and Track B3 OR only pick 1 ability from Track C. I'll add things to the lists as people suggest them. If you want to change your vote, don't make a new post. Just edit the one you voted in and quote saying you did (just in case I decide to track them on here). Any of these changes to Tectonics is probably welcomed by everyone so Only vote on one thing please. But feel free to give honorable mentions to other abilities or disdain that are not part of your vote. I never want to limit feedback. 

 

Tectonics Part 1 of ability:  Track A

Spoiler

1) Tectonics becomes affected by Ability Range. Creates a curved wall for more useful coverage, instead of straight. 

2) Atlas can pick-up his wall to move it or throw it.

3) The current Augment mod becomes the new normal tectonics and a new augment mod is made to implement one of the other ideas listed.

4) Add to it that Atlas can Landslide his wall, destroying it and coating himself in its debri for some increased armor or damage shield.

5) Add to the wall that using Landslide on it will take chunks of health out of the wall, sending out blasts of shrapnel rocks. 

 

Tectonics recast of ability: Track B

Spoiler

1) Buff damage by a lot or buff its CC capabilities by a lot and allow a long press of a button to instantly go into launching a boulder instead of making a wall and recasting. 

2) Instead of rolling a ball, wall turns into a Rumbler. 

3) Instead of rolling a ball, it explodes, causing a guaranteed blast proc and AOE damage. 

 

Complete change to ability: Track C

Spoiler

1) Atlas gathers Earth from around him, swirling up into a growing Globe above him (increasing damage reduction while channeling), attracting bullets and pulling in petrified enemies into the Globe above (pulls some aggro on ranged enemies). On release, Atlas launches the Globe in a direction dealing base damage + Absorbed damage + Bonus damage for each petrified enemies sucked in. Petrified enemies that were sucked in take extra damage as well as having their Petrify timer paused while inside the Globe. Direct hits guarantee knockdown. High damage with distance fall off, high CC with distance fall off. 

2) Atlas causes an Earthquake which makes non-flying enemies move slowly, reduce accuracy, and constant chances to trip and fall (blast proc). No or Very low damaging skill. 

3) Atlas punches the Earth, creating a circular ripple that extends outward, dealing moderate damage and high chance of blast proc.

4) Basically the same thing as #3 but the button can be long pressed where Atlas pumps his punch. Same thing happens except a wall forms around the edge of the range and everyone is blasted out of the area (like when casting a Snow Globe). Wall would have less health than it currently does (which is not a lot) and the skill would be more damage based.Keep 3 second invulnerability because Atlas wall does not have a lot of health as it is and I'm saying to also reduce it more. 

4) Atlas creates rock shackles around the feet of every enemy within X range (flying/hovering units unaffected). Deals damage per tick and immobilizes enemies. Also causes reduced movement speed after the shackles dissipate. An extension to this could be: In addition to duration of shackles, the shackles have some health and pull aggro, mainly from the person shackled. % of removed movement speed would be based on the length they were shackled. 

5) Atlas creates pillars of Earth that act like the current wall we have but skinnier. X amount of pillars are created where the X closest enemies were within a range and deal damage/knockdown as well as linger as an obstacle. # of pillars made would be affected by one of the ability mods and slowly crumble over time (like Nekros summons). 

6) Atlas creates Rock Armor to protect himself. Can even have a recast ability to remove it, throwing a boulder or summoning a small Rumbler, both based on remaining Rock Armor health. 

My vote,Track C4: Basically the same thing as #3 but the button can be long pressed where Atlas pumps his punch. Same thing happens except a wall forms around the edge of the range and everyone is blasted out of the area (like when casting a Snow Globe). Wall would have less health than it currently does (which is not a lot) and the skill would be more damage based.Keep 3 second invulnerability because Atlas wall does not have a lot of health as it is and I'm saying to also reduce it more. 

Honorable mention, Track A1 and B2. Provides a big buff without changing much of what he currently does. Allows for a Rumbler build if desired. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by MuscleBeach
Added #6 to Track C

[Oranji]

On 10/27/2017 at 2:02 AM, MuscleBeach said:

Lanslide:

Issues:

• If I stop punching I die. If enemies are too spread out for me to punch in immediate succession.
  Let us punch rag dolled enemies or change rag doll to knockdown (even though that's way less cool it'll at least be more functional).

Really nice to see a fellow Atlas enthusiast that knows exactly what his issues are.
I definitely agree on most things that you covered but would like to share my simpler 2 cents on this.

Landslide:
"If I stop punching I die." - This is absolutely true.
My thoughts on this is to simply have them groaning in pain after the 3rd punch (kinda like being stunned) while giving them a chance to get petrified afterwards.
This puts them in place and opens them for additional attacks/punches should they survive.

Tectonics:
Gotta agree on the interaction part with these walls.
My take on this is that by default, we should be able to summon 3 walls at will.
Casting Landslide on it shatters rock projectiles on a cone that deals % damage.
In addition to that,
Charging the skill creates a single wall close to the size of Volt's shield.
Hitting it with Landslide turns it to a rolling boulder which has:
- Longer travel time/distance/damage compared to the current one we have.
- A high chance for enemies caught in it to drop multiple health orbs.
The goal for this change is to improve utility, add additional damage source & sustainability.

Petrify:
Right. The current channeling skill leaves our back open for enemy fire. But more importantly, it converts us to an almost immovable crowd control machine that a lot of frames can do without sacrificing movement.
As such, my idea is to have Atlas summon a Stone Totem that radiates an aura, petrifying enemies within the vicinity.
This can easily be placed on the middle of the battle field or choke points while you worry about other things.
But ofc the totem should be targetable by enemies that're not affected while keeping the range at a reasonable rate for balance purposes.
Also:
- Golems/Rumblers within the radius gain additional movement & attack speed.
- Petrified enemies shattered by Landslide has a chance to drop health orbs.
+ A simple augment that reduces enemy armor within the radius while providing more to you and your allies.

I really can't think of anything for Rumblers at the moment. But I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on this so far.
*I may have gone overboard on the health orbs but imho, Atlas really needs some sort of natural life sustainability to support all that armor.
Like we could've gone with the usual life-steal but I feel like health orbs would provide more variety on builds.
Imagine Health Conversion and the currently "Nekros exclusive" Arcane Pulse. :)



 

[MuscleBeach]

18 minutes ago, Oranji said:

Landslide:
"If I stop punching I die." - This is absolutely true.
My thoughts on this is to simply have them groaning in pain after the 3rd punch (kinda like being stunned) while giving them a chance to get petrified afterwards.
This puts them in place and opens them for additional attacks/punches should they survive.

It may be even simpler to just remove Rag Doll, except on death because flying corpses are awesome, and replace it with open to finishers. Could just be a simple copy paste for them on coding which saves time and money. Also, makes use of that melee weapon we most likely neglected to put any crit/status/attack speed mods on lol. It would even be a bit of a welcomed nerf as rag dolling is probably longer CC than opening to a finisher. 

21 minutes ago, Oranji said:

Tectonics:
Gotta agree on the interaction part with these walls.
My take on this is that by default, we should be able to summon 3 walls at will.
Casting Landslide on it shatters rock projectiles on a cone that deals % damage.
In addition to that,
Charging the skill creates a single wall close to the size of Volt's shield.
Hitting it with Landslide turns it to a rolling boulder which has:
- Longer travel time/distance/damage compared to the current one we have.
- A high chance for enemies caught in it to drop multiple health orbs.
The goal for this change is to improve utility, add additional damage source & sustainability.

I really really don't like the boulder but that's just me. But, putting my feelings aside, this would make it a good CC skill. They really don't need to change much to make this an ok CC skill. Just increase the roll speed, knock back to knock down, bigger explosion with guaranteed blast proc. 

22 minutes ago, Oranji said:

Petrify:
Right. The current channeling skill leaves our back open for enemy fire. But more importantly, it converts us to an almost immovable crowd control machine that a lot of frames can do without sacrificing movement.
As such, my idea is to have Atlas summon a Stone Totem that radiates an aura, petrifying enemies within the vicinity.
This can easily be placed on the middle of the battle field or choke points while you worry about other things.
But ofc the totem should be targetable by enemies that're not affected while keeping the range at a reasonable rate for balance purposes.
Also:
- Golems/Rumblers within the radius gain additional movement & attack speed.
- Petrified enemies shattered by Landslide has a chance to drop health orbs.
+ A simple augment that reduces enemy armor within the radius while providing more to you and your allies.

 Another Great idea! I like this a lot actually. Make it cost 100 Energy so we can't spam it and only 1 out at a time. Make it a giant stone Atlas pop up as the totem for flavor points that shrinks and grows based on its duration. Make its duration somewhat short and make petrified kills inside it add 1 or 2 seconds to the duration. To make it easy to balance, give it two ranges. One for sucking duration off of killed petrified people (unaffected by mods or very short range) and another for the petrification distance (affected by mods). 

42 minutes ago, Oranji said:

I really can't think of anything for Rumblers at the moment. But I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on this so far.

I like your changes a lot, especially the totem. They all provide a good solution to his lack of defensive capabilities. I'd say your Tectonics suggestion is still too weak. If they changed that and only that, his issues would not be any different. Rumblers need to explode, no matter how they expire, and they need to be smarter/faster. Or give them a ranged main attack or one that dashes a short distance. They're not noticeable on the battlefield. I can stand still and not attack and they're still not noticeable, which is why I think they need to be faster and smarter. That way they keep up with the pace of the game.

50 minutes ago, Oranji said:

*I may have gone overboard on the health orbs but imho, Atlas really needs some sort of natural life sustainability to support all that armor.
Like we could've gone with the usual life-steal but I feel like health orbs would provide more variety on builds.
Imagine Health Conversion and the currently "Nekros exclusive" Arcane Pulse. :)

I would remove your health globes. Not every frame has or needs a way to heal themselves. We don't want to give Atlas every possible solution to every problem. He should have some weaknesses, like every frame. Having no way to protect yourself is not the proper weakness though and is his main problem. There's other ways to heal yourself and they should stay limited (Hema, Life Strike, the other melee mod, Medi-ray, other warframes on the team, pizza). 

[DeltaPangaea]

I'm not a fan of the totem personally, I really like the flavor of the medusa-gaze, just not having to stand around like a lemon to use it

[MuscleBeach]

Just now, DeltaPangaea said:

I'm not a fan of the totem personally, I really like the flavor of the medusa-gaze, just not having to stand around like a lemon to use it

I'm not gonna lie, I like the medusa gaze flavor too. On any other frame though, I would have hated the totem idea but on Atlas it fits for me.

 

What do you think is better for the 1 click conal flash idea you mentioned earlier:

1 pulse per click, 1 handed action, can use it while shooting and stuff like Mag's Pull.

1 pulse per click, not a 1 handed action and can't use it while doing stuff.

Toggle a channel on/off that pulses every so often.

Some other idea. 

 

I would say it needs to be less effective than what you mentioned earlier in the thread though. Maybe 1 click for weak enemies. 2 for Medium (what's medium can be debated), 3 for large? 

[DeltaPangaea]

6 minutes ago, MuscleBeach said:

What do you think is better for the 1 click conal flash idea you mentioned earlier:

1 pulse per click, 1 handed action, can use it while shooting and stuff like Mag's Pull.

1 pulse per click, not a 1 handed action and can't use it while doing stuff.

Toggle a channel on/off that pulses every so often.

Some other idea.

Hm. Maybe it could be BOTH of the first two?

Tapping the button is onehanded, petrifies normal people, and roots heavies, HOLDING it isn't onehanded and has a cast time of 1-1.5 seconds or so, but petrifies everyone, possibly in a larger cone. Even up to two seconds cast time I think would alright. And there's always Natural Talent.

Although I suppose there is a difference between just onehanded and 'doesn't lock you from moving'. I feel like 'Still free movement but would interrupt reloads and such' might be better for the tap, but actual stop-in-place-do-animation casting for the hold. Just to clarify.

[Andras61]

I'm sorry if I step on any toes but I had ideas for an Atlas rework too and I wanted to drop my information dump here and there's a lot more to this thread than I was expecting hory shet

So my idea for Atlas rework is basically to enhance his setup until he's scaling viable (Like say Nekros, or Nidus, who can get to level 400s without much of a hitch because of build synergies), keep him offensive with Landslide, retain it's power to be the highest priority damage of his build up until enemies are stupid big. Then his defensive capabilities kick in and he thinks tactical.

Landslide - Make the targeting for Landslide easier, about the radius of Mesa's Peacemaker but at minimum radius, prioritizing enemy closest to the reticle if in range.

Basically this is quality of life while improving his overall selfish survivability by giving him the option to "spam 1, never die, long as stuff is in range". I don't believe making range affect his targeting on 1 would be a good improvement to Atlas because charging halfway across the map while invulnerable seems....wonky. Like he currently is!

Tectonics - Reverse vitrify nerf. Make the wall invulnerable with a duration, making it true cover but still rather small, allow allies and yourself to shoot through it.

It would make the augment something to think about. Also a synergy in this: Any damage the wall takes before making it into a boulder would add to the boulder's damage.

Petrify - Buff it. Half the time it takes to petrify enemies. Make the range matter. Let it affect enemies on the other side of your tectonics walls like you can currently fire and melee through it.

Again, the augment would become something to think about and it would give Atlas some high power CC for endgame. If this isn't enough, make petrified enemies take bonus damage because they're brittle, and double that vs Landslide for synergy.

And the ult? I think it should be replaced entirely. Don't get me wrong big dudes running around smashing things is cool. But compared to Nekros shadows of the dead, it's worthless in high endgame and too strong in low game. If it was buffed it'd be &#036;&amp;*&amp;*#(%&amp; in midgame and still not scale against shadows. And 2 bodies isn't as good a distraction as 7. Plus the aesthetic of being a hybrid offense/defense would be cool if Atlas was a tank focus like the other tank frames.

So I'd propose, and this might be too strong, Quicksand. Would stagger and slowly pull enemies towards atlas with little to no damage.  Similar to banshee but more CC for the team than damage. Also give him 50% damage reduction while channeling I'd say as a true defensive option and the "oh S#&amp;&#036;" button.

You could also argue that Quicksand belongs as his 2 and Tectonics belongs as his 4, since Tectonics is the most rock-like ability in his set and arguably very strong with the new flavor to just wall off zones like Vitrify. Only unlike Vitrify it can't cover more than 3 spots at once.

Basically the driving point is to make Atlas more of a focal part of the squad than just the punchyman who runs in and dies the second enemies are out of range of him. Tectonics would give him cover to survive. Petrify would give him CC and scaling once Landslide falls short. Quicksand (if implemented) would give him a truly game-changing ultimate which could be use as map cheese(aka Equinox or Limbo).

[MuscleBeach]

I didn't know this before I made this thread but DE isn't willing to redesign abilities on Warframes anymore. So that invalidates quite of a bit of the suggestions and severely limits his possibilities of a proper fix. 

On 12/11/2017 at 6:04 AM, Andras61 said:

Petrify - Buff it. Half the time it takes to petrify enemies.

On a strength build, which it only needs like 30% or so to cap out on petrify strength, it's pretty quick. 

On 12/11/2017 at 6:04 AM, Andras61 said:

Make the range matter. Let it affect enemies on the other side of your tectonics walls like you can currently fire and melee through it.

Other than the shooting through walls, this is already a part of Petrify. Things farther away take longer to stone and you can stone things behind your wall. I don't think we should be able to shoot through it. I also don't think we should be able to shoot into or out of vitrify and snow globe. 

On 12/11/2017 at 6:04 AM, Andras61 said:

And the ult? I think it should be replaced entirely. Don't get me wrong big dudes running around smashing things is cool.

This would be a cool and useful ult. But DE won't redesign skills. Also, commanding earthly elementals is in his description and removing them would go against their idea of Atlas.  

On 12/11/2017 at 6:04 AM, Andras61 said:

Tectonics - Reverse vitrify nerf. Make the wall invulnerable with a duration, making it true cover but still rather small, allow allies and yourself to shoot through it.

I agree it needs to be sturdier but not Duration based. My argument is merely a preference.

On 12/11/2017 at 6:04 AM, Andras61 said:

Landslide - Make the targeting for Landslide easier, about the radius of Mesa's Peacemaker but at minimum radius, prioritizing enemy closest to the reticle if in range.

I haven't had much trouble targeting with Atlas, other than not being able to target rag dolled enemies. But if other people see a need for this change then I don't see why not. I do like to target more distant enemies though when i know they won't die in 3 hits (the rag doll issue and distance creates more time for them to get back up) and this change could get in the way of that. But I wouldn't care about losing that if it means more people would like Peacemaker targeting. Admittedly, I'm not too familiar with Mesa and her targeting. 

 

I don't remember if I mentioned it in this thread but I found a solution to his survivability issues between punches. Vitality+Rage+Primed Flow+Quick Thinking. Nothing new but it works much much better than trying to use armor. I was able to take down 5 max lvl Ambulas at the same time in the simulacrum. It was tricky as you have to take the time to hack them but it's doable.

 

With that said, Atlas still has this glaring issue that I don't feel your suggestions fix (besides the new ult that DE won't want make): Why use his 2, 3, 4 when I can just continue punching instead? You could argue that his punch is just that good and I wouldn't disagree, but if you remove his punch and build for his 2,3,4 he will be one of the worst frames (and he's already regarded as such) as his abilities are very random. This is what worries me about Atlas. I'm not sure it's possible to fix this issue without redesigning skills. 

Landslide- Is good killing skill. 

Tectonics- Mediocre at best but still useful for funneling enemies, revives, protecting hacking consoles.

Tectonics Recast- Slow, weak, somehow it's hard to aim, covers too small of an area for CC to be useful.

Petrify- Useless. I've tried using it many times in sorties, just to see if it's an option, even a bad one, and ended up just getting killed most of the time. 

Rumblers- Too slow, weak, don't hold aggro well, don't last long enough. 

 

My new, more realistic suggestions: 

Landslide- DE can do nothing to this skill and I would be happy. Allow us to target rag dolled enemies or remove the rag dolling and replace it with knockdown. 

Tectonics- Mediocre but it does have its uses. Buff its health. Adding range to its size would be nice. 

Tectonics Recast- Have it explode like a Rumbler instead of a boulder. Or have it turn into a Rumbler and cost more energy to do. 

I don't think Petrify is fixable without a redesign. Some frames do have that 1 useless skill that no one ever uses and still end up a good frame. Fine, this is like that. There have been some other suggestions that fix its issues on paper but in practicality, I don't think they'll be good enough. But that's just my opinion. 

Rumblers- Let us have more than 2 but can summon only 1 at a time. Cap it at 4? Shrink their maximum size for less screen clutter. Buff their attack speed or let them Landslide for a normal punch so that they don't have to run as far to melee attack. Let them explode no matter how they expire. If nothing else, at least let them have more aggro. Augment Mod would be summon the strength of 2 inside of one but you can only have one out. Or the Augment Mod can simply reduce casting time of Rumblers by 50%. 

[LuckyCharm]

I don't really play atlas much, but honestly what I'd like would be for landslide to punch an enemy and damage enemies behind it in a cone. Like Vi's excessive force from LoL. That way you could feel powerful and one punch groups rather than single targets, which most of the time your melee weapon does a better job

[Andras61]

I wasn't aware Petrify scaled with strength. I assumed it didn't because it was still very, very slow at petrifying on a punch build with roughly 200% power strength. Apparently the maximum rate is 1 second. I was implying .5 second baseline to initiate stone form. Maybe that's too strong. Maybe it's still not strong enough.

That's basically my point. Atlas isn't strong, like you said. He has glaring issues with his skills. And I certainly do not imply that they remove his 1, hell, the targetting quality of life improvement would enhance it for players without perfect aim(like myself(of course I don't imply all enemies are hard to target, just, when you're dashing through a crowd of mobs and you end up on the other side while you're being lit up like a flare, you're going to NEED to keep punching, and if you so happen to miss the window by a fraction of a second you're dead in difficulties other tank frames could survive. That's my point with that.)). So I'm even saying his punch could receive a side-buff, or whatever you call it.

The issue of whether or not I should punch forever is simply put, the punch is perfectly fine and optimal, and you're right, why should I use anything else? The buffs and reworks I implied would answer that question: Options. And if they aren't satisfactory then maybe we should look at Banshee, who can only really use her sonar and quake, or Ember who's 4 is the only real selling point to her kit. Atlas faces the similar issue that he has 1 very good ability and 1 nichely okay ability(Rumblers, because they can create chaos, which means less damage taken until they die) which chomps away at your energy like no tomorrow. But hey, you did say rage + quick thinking, right?....I'm not a fan of quick thinking on anyone besides Trinity and Limbo. Trinity doesn't get focused enough for it to matter to her. Also an EV Trin has access to ludicrous amounts of energy sustain, while a blessing Trin will soak more damage anyway. Limbo is too squishy to afford any other form of survivability after a Vitality mod. Unless his immunity to knockbacks means that he won't be forced staggered when Quick Thinking does its job, I'd say it's just a waste of a mod slot.

Anyway, my constructive feedback to your suggestions;

Landslide - Yeah I can agree. They can ignore this skill entirely, they can make ragdolls target-able, they can make it a knockdown instead, especially with damage 3.0. I still think ease of targeting would help, but, that's just a Mesa comparison.

Tectonics - I feel my suggestion would solve the problem faced with it not scaling into endgame very well and being too small to instead use it as roadblocks or true cover. No need to fire through it, yeah, that's fine. But if truely invulnerable with duration is totally overpowered then a health buff could suffice. At least bring it over Frost since it's small. A range benefit doesn't seem necessary as it's already just sizable enough to block most chokes. Maybe increase its size baseline?

Tectonics boulder - Any buff to this thing would be welcome lol

Petrify - I based my redesign for Atlas on the idea that Petrify would become viable and therefore an option when Landslide no longer cuts it for outright killing. Say around 150 when enemies bite it in too many hits or when your team wants the enemies to not be shot into space. Of course knockdown on landslide would fix that issue. Maybe if it was instant cast instead we'd be looking at an okay ability. Still, buffing it up the wazoo is my call if I had one.

Rumblers - I still think it battles Atlas' design. As the 'lord of earthly elementals', why is only one skill of his designed around making sentient rocks? Yeah, I guess Tectonics counts. Nevertheless I don't hate Rumblers as a skill, and it staying is fine, long as it's buffed to the point it matters for longer than 5 seconds in sorties. If I cast this and still die instantly I don't feel like it did anything, especially because summons are supposed to draw fire. Otherwise I might as well be punching(haha funny callback). Augment idea is not good when Natural Talent already exists. Sure, combining both is an option, but it seems like wasted mod space when your max rumblers is 4 in that situation. That being said I REALLY like the idea that Rumblers should be able to use Landslide. Giving them a charge might be enough to make them viable with a health buff.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Andras61

[Andras61]

8 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

I don't really play atlas much, but honestly what I'd like would be for landslide to punch an enemy and damage enemies behind it in a cone. Like Vi's excessive force from LoL. That way you could feel powerful and one punch groups rather than single targets, which most of the time your melee weapon does a better job

I still don't think Landslide needs a buff as much as the rest of his kit. But this technically already exists. Upping Atlas' power range will cause his Landslide to cleave in a sphere around his target.

[LuckyCharm]

1 hour ago, Andras61 said:

I still don't think Landslide needs a buff as much as the rest of his kit. But this technically already exists. Upping Atlas' power range will cause his Landslide to cleave in a sphere around his target.

Thanks dude ^^ I'll try it out

[MJ12]

I think the most important change should be that Landslide's dash range and speed should be enhanced by Power Range.

Furthermore, I think most aimed powers need to have slightly larger effective reticules, so they don't need quite as precise aiming to target. That would be more than sufficient to make Landslide a very powerful ability.

[Kainosh]

Got a bit deeper into it.

Came up with some methods to improve his tankiness.

> Petrify <

Not a channeled ability anymore.  On cast, Atlas fires several homing beams in a cone in front of him ( like laser shotgun). Enemies that were hit by beam will stagger and start to petrify.  Beams do not target already affected enemies.

Number of beams (targeted enemies) and petrification speed - power str.  

Statue duration - ability duration.

Cone and beam targeting range - Ability range.

> Landslide <

Hitting enemies restores health (% of damage).    Atlas is earth based...and uses blood as "fertilizer"

Hitting Statues (fully petrified enemies) gives extra armor. Stackable. Decreases over time.  Max amount of bonus armor is affected by power str.  Fading speed is affected by duration.   All that petrified flesh...its a waste not to use it.

Aoe damage from landslide also triggers these effects.    So if you have Statues and normal enemies in range, you get both HP and extra Armor.

 

I think that Armor buff should come from Stones that atlas creates....and totally not from distance he travels during Landslide.

 

As for Landslide augment...

> Landmine.  Activating landslide without target creates stone mine. When enemies trip it, mine explodes and petrifies enemies.

> Land rush.  Pressing Landslide button without enemy target will make you slide forward. Consumes energy per second.  Cancels if you press landslide again, or if you hit a wall.    Atlas performs uppercut if you slide into enemy.

 

 

 

[-BM-Mitz]

My feedback would be:

1: I agree with you. Maybe have it cost a reduced amount when punching stoned enemies and walls?

2: How about when punching the wall, you loop between the first and second punch ( aesthetic change, would look better ). Also, how's this sound: By default, up to 3 walls 25 cost each. With augment: punching the walls makes them into boulders that charge and explode at contact or their max range and knockdown enemies. I know it's nothing great but I dont want additional golems and would like to keep my bowling ball :) Check this out: how about you can punch the boulder to make it faster and change direction? And maybe the faster it was when it detonates, the larger the AoE? I think it'll be hilarious to charge at enemies with a range-heavy build charge-punching a giant stone towards them till it explodes! I agree with punching the wall for a frontal spread AoE part.

3: I like it but I feel it's a bit much. How about killing an enemy slows down mobs in an AoE and after being affected by a second AoE, it stones them. Another possibility is to make it scale a bit harder by not having it trigger on kills. Maybe it can be a drain over time power will trigger when you gain a certain amount of charges. The charges will be gained from casting powers or punching the walls or stone. the higher costing the power, the more charges it'll give so repeated punching walls will be less effective than punching enemies but will still fuel it. You can speed it up by using your energy to cast 4th and too. It'll make it so you dont have to hog kills just to trigger the CC (if you need the CC, then you'll have trouble getting kills at that point). If playtesting shows that not to be enough, it can be made that killing stoned mobs will refund some charges too. You should be able to turn off the power while keeping charges so you dont waste them when you don't want to. I'm ok with your idea for augment.

4: I'm not sure about this one. 200 hp shield sounds really bad. Maybe make it in fact like Rhino and Nezha and have it's hp scale with Power Str and Armor. While active, you'll lose your weapons and get a strong punch as a main fire and roll up in a ball to charge at higher speed with alt fire causing knockdown to all you go over. You won't be able to sprint in this mode. And the augment picking up parts to restore your self golem hp is nice.

[-BM-Mitz]

On 12/16/2017 at 1:33 AM, MuscleBeach said:

I didn't know this before I made this thread but DE isn't willing to redesign abilities on Warframes anymore. So that invalidates quite of a bit of the suggestions and severely limits his possibilities of a proper fix. 

May I ask where did you get this information?

[MuscleBeach]

9 hours ago, Major_Phantom said:

May I ask where did you get this information?

Enough people have touted it on here that I'm taking their word for it but supposedly Rebecca said it on a Devstream or Tennocon. It would make me very happy if this were false. 

On 12/15/2017 at 5:54 PM, Andras61 said:

The buffs and reworks I implied would answer that question: Options. And if they aren't satisfactory then maybe we should look at Banshee, who can only really use her sonar and quake, or Ember who's 4 is the only real selling point to her kit. Atlas faces the similar issue that he has 1 very good ability and 1 nichely okay ability(Rumblers, because they can create chaos, which means less damage taken until they die) which chomps away at your energy like no tomorrow.

This is what I'm afraid of. Their reworks just re-hype them, they don't fix them. 

On 12/15/2017 at 5:54 PM, Andras61 said:

Tectonics boulder - Any buff to this thing would be welcome lol

Seriously! This thing is so bad it's actually punishing to use. 90% of its use is to troll my friends off of an extraction zone. The other 10% is me messing around in lvl 5 missions. 

9 hours ago, Major_Phantom said:

3: I like it but I feel it's a bit much

I agree, it'd be a tough one to balance and probably not the right way to go. Petrify is odd on Atlas because it really doesn't fit his play-style at all. The only way I can see Petrify being useful on Atlas is with a passive play-style, like Embers World on Fire. And just gave me a couple new ideas... I guess I'm not giving up on petrify yet! 

Petrify Version 1: Cast for 25 energy lasting 25 seconds. While Petrify is active, direct hits with Landslide and Rumblers petrify enemies for 5 seconds.

Enemies killed while petrified explode dealing X damage (or 10% of max health for scaling) to enemies within 8 Meters as 70% Impact, 30% Puncture, unaffected by range or power strength. This explosion would trigger no matter who or what kills them, it's something that would be inherent to petrified enemies.

Pros:

Doesn't require a new augment.

Focuses on offense, as that's what Atlas is, an offensive Warframe.

Makes use of Efficiency, Strength, Duration, and Range in ways that actually matter and promote balanced builds.

Makes Rumblers do some light CC (though, they need to be fixed for this point to matter).

Cons: 

Redundant with what landslide already does. Using the scaling damage version would be best to minimize this rather big con.

Lose out on a CC skill that no one could find a good way to use anyways. 

Require some small tweaks in the petrification mechanic, which is a technically complicated mechanic. 

 

Petrify Version 2: Cast for 50 energy lasting 20 seconds. While Petrify is active, Atlas and Rumblers (and Tectonic wall? Maybe? Possibly?) emit a Petrifying aura, petrifying enemies within 5m for 5 seconds.

Enemies killed while petrified explode dealing X damage (or 10% of max health for scaling) to enemies within 8 Meters as 70% Impact, 30% Puncture, unaffected by range or power strength. This explosion would trigger no matter who or what kills them, it's something that would be inherent to petrified enemies.

Pros: 

Doesn't require a new augment.

Makes use of Efficiency, Strength, Duration, and Range in ways that actually matter and promote balanced builds.

Compliments Landslide but also doesn't require Landslide to be useful.

Works with other play-styles, allowing Atlas to be played as something besides a puncher.

Works well with Rumblers, giving a reason to use them even if they never get buffed in any other way.

Cons:

Uhhhhh no idea? Wandering Rumblers can make things annoying in Defense missions by petrifying something over yonder?

Maybe add extra range or petrification speed to the Titanic Rumbler augment since there's already not enough reasons to use that mod and that mod would reduce synergy with this skill. 

 

I like my version 2 idea the best. I don't think its overpowered. If it is, Rumbler's auras would have reduced strength and/or range compared to Atlas.

 

I think it's important to shift away from buffing Landslide or making everything synergize with it. I wouldn't be mad if that's how things turn out BUT considering they're not exalted weapons, I think making Atlas playable without using Landslide is the way to go.  

[MuscleBeach]

I updated the opening post with the below.

Spoiler

Here are the ideas and changes I feel are best after reading everyone's feedback and ideas.

Atlas's issues:

1. Survivability between punches is bad at sortie levels. I found a good solution but it requires Quick Thinking + (Primed) Flow + Rage+ Vitality. This has worked incredibly well but it's also 4 mods dedicated to staying alive which really limits how you can build Atlas. I've tested out focusing on armor, this works much much better.
2. His skills, outside of Landslide, are subpar and there are no practical situations to use them instead of just casting more Landslides. 

 

Landslide: This skill is nearly perfect. It needs no buffs, just quality of life fixes. 

1. You can't target ragdolled enemies with Landslide. This is an issue because Atlas dies very quickly when not punching and this creates moments of vulnerability every 3 punches. Solution: Make ragdolled enemies targetable (preferred option) or make it a knockdown instead.
2. Lackluster augment mod. Everything behind me is dead already because punching means you're moving forward. Solution: I don't have a specific preferred change in mind for this but make it add survivability in some way. This could be increased health/defense or staying true to its name, Path of Statues, every 5 meters Atlas travels with a Landslide, he leaves behind statues of himself, taunting nearby enemies.

Tectonics: Some say this is useless. I think that is largely due to Atlas's constantly moving play-style, he doesn't need a wall but it still has uses.

1. The wall dies easily. The scaling during its invulnerability isn't very good because it's small and doesn't get shot much like a Snow Globe Solution: Buff its health a little. Buff its invulnerability duration OR buff its health more than a little. 
2. The recast boulder ability is not useful. It's hard to aim, it does barely any damage, and isn't a reliable form of CC, even in a hallway. Solution: Recasting the wall summons a mini-Rumbler. This promotes an alternate build to Landsliding which is a play-style that would probably like to have a wall. The Rumbler would be weaker than normal Rumblers but also much quicker, like a new type of Rumbler. Recasting tectonics while the rumbler is active will destroy the mini-rumbler. The mini-rumbler would have half the stats of a normal Rumbler BUT have double the speed of them. It would lose the stone toss ability but give it a short range dash on attacks. Additional Change: The above solution could be an augment mod and the current augment mod, Tectonic Fracture, could be the normal Tectonics skill. Or Tectonic Fracture can become the change I suggested. 

Petrify: There are no practical opportunities where using Petrify is a good idea at sortie levels (trust me, I've tried many times and failed every time. Yes, EVERY!). This will require the biggest changes. I don't believe this skill is fixable without at least some mechanic and functional changes. 

1. On a warframe like Atlas where mobility is heavily encouraged, Petrify cannot be a skill that locks you down and only hits a narrow area.
2. Solution: Cast for 50 energy, lasting 20 seconds. While Petrify is active, Atlas and Rumblers emit a Petrifying aura, petrifying enemies within 5m for 5 seconds. Enemies killed while petrified explode dealing X damage (or 10% of max health for scaling) to enemies within 8 Meters as 70% Impact, 30% Puncture (or 100% Blast damage). Petrified explosions are unaffected by range or power strength. This explosion would trigger no matter who or what kills them, it's something that would be inherent to petrified enemies.
3. Comments about Solution: This compliments Landslide but more importantly, it promotes the use of Rumblers, which currently have no battlefield presence, besides their looks. It makes Rumbler builds more viable so you don't have to be punching all the time and can make better use of the Tectonic wall. This + Rumblers also helps with Atlas's survivability issues by allowing the rumblers to CC and distract some enemies. Low range and Petrify duration requires balanced modding and keeps it from being too strong as no stat can be sacrificed completely. The petrify explosions is a good way to add a small amount of scaling damage to Atlas. If giving the Rumblers the aura too is overpowered, then make the petrification strength half as strong as Atlas's. Augment mod would not need to be changed at all. 

Rumblers: They have no battlefield presence. What this means is when I cast them, the tides of battle don't shift in any noticeable way. Frost presses 4 and everything is frozen and loses its armor. Atlas presses 4 and two big rocks are blocking your vision. Hooray! Do note, with my Petrify changes, they will have some presence just from that. This is the hardest skill for me to give suggestions too. A buff around the board for Rumblers would probably be good but I will attempt specific suggestions.

1. They are too slow to engage in combat. They're weak, even in a high power strength build. Solution: I think they appear weak because they can't acquire new targets quickly enough. So I'm asking for the AI to be buffed. Make them more aggressive and possibly a slight buff to attack speed. Also, increasing the frequency that they throw Stones would help with this. 
2. Comments about Rumbler Changes: Atlas has 2 skills that can be built around: Landslide and Rumblers. Buffing Rumblers and allowing the mini-rumbler from my tectonics changes would allow for a new, viable, play-style, without sacrificing any of Atlas's current themes, and where Landslide actually becomes the least useful skill to use in it without making Atlas overpowered.  

 

How these changes address Atlas's issues: Red is the negatives I mentioned before. Black are how the issues have been addressed. 

1. Survivability between punches is bad at sortie levels. I found a good solution but it requires Quick Thinking + (Primed) Flow + Rage+ Vitality. This has worked incredibly well but it's also 4 mods dedicated to staying alive which really limits how you can build Atlas. I've tested out focusing on armor, this works much much better. This is actually a very hard issue to address without changing the skills he has. I mentioned the Landslide Augment which should add survivability and also my changes to Petrify. For a Landslide build, the Quick Thinking setup is satisfactory. For a Rumbler build, my Petrify changes in combination with the Rumblers would provide a decent defense against enemies by slowing/petrifying people that are near and far through your Rumblers. 
2. His skills, outside of Landslide, are sub-par and there are no practical situations to use them instead of just casting more Landslides. Tectonics has the mini-rumbler when recasting. It now has a purpose in a landslide build as the rolling boulder and a wall are not very good with landslide but a mini-rumbler to fight alongside you is. The mini-rumbler also provides another way to petrify enemies outside of the main Rumblers. Petrify is now usable due to its passive play-stlye (passive skills are fine when done right), allowing for some pocket CC and synergy with Rumblers. Rumblers are now more useful due to Petrify and their AI improvements, allowing for a build that doesn't require punching.  

 

[sappinmahsentry]

I have to disagree with one part of your post. If you've actually used Path of Statues you'd know that it's an astronomically useful augment because it affects enemies who are slightly in front of you. Other than that, your petrify solution wouldn't make it useful. A five meter aura is small, really really small. I suggest that the channeling be removed from petrify and it just instantly petrifies enemies instead.

[Buddhakingpen]

if you wanted to just chuck some ideas around for funsies, this is awesome. But if we're being realistic, DE doesnt listen when the community tries to gut their frames with their own remakes. They listen when the community gives them solid and constructive feedback to build off of the work they've already done. So things like

"remove the mobility reduction on petrify, make petrify buff rumblers and tectonics"

"make tectonics bigger, and the boulder affect a wider radius"

"make rumblers add to the combo counter"

Things like that are what DE listens to for reworks. The only time they gut a frames moves are when game mechanics dictate that it must be done (like giving excal exalted blade after they made super jump obsolete with parkour). But they never fully change something just because people dont like it. 

[MuscleBeach]

15 hours ago, sappinmahsentry said:

I have to disagree with one part of your post. If you've actually used Path of Statues you'd know that it's an astronomically useful augment because it affects enemies who are slightly in front of you. Other than that, your petrify solution wouldn't make it useful. A five meter aura is small, really really small. I suggest that the channeling be removed from petrify and it just instantly petrifies enemies instead.

The point of my Petrify change is that it also works with Rumblers, including the third one from my Tectonics recast change and the Range is affected by mods. That's 4 entities with a 5m radius that are all melee units which means they'll be in peoples faces. The radius cant be too big for balance reasons. It's a passive skill that is super easy to recast so it can't CC the whole screen like frost does with a 100 energy ultimate. It instead does partial group CC to reduce the incoming damage heading towards Atlas. Besides, you can get like 250% power Range. That's 12.5m radius on 4 entities which would be broken if it didn't come with sacrificing the other stats. 

It does make it harder to utilize Landslide also, which is totally fine in my eyes but here's my proposed build for making use of my Petrify change:

Spoiler

Steel Charge, Cunning Drift, Rage, Primed Flow, Quick Thinking, Vitality, Stretch,  Transient Fortitude, Primed Continuity, Streamline. This build may be able to support even better Power stats if Petrify allows us to get rid of the Quick Thinking but that would require actual testing. 

Health 740, 300 Shield, 450 Armor 

Energy 637.5

Duration 127.5%

Efficiency 130%

Range 160%

Strength 155% (this is more than enough to hit the stoning speed cap)

Petrify Stats with above build:

Cast for 35 energy, lasting 25.5 seconds. While Petrify is active, Atlas and Rumblers emit a Petrifying aura, petrifying enemies within 8m for 6.375 seconds.

Enemies killed while petrified explode dealing X damage (or 10% of max health for scaling) to enemies within 8 Meters as 70% Impact, 30% Puncture (or 100% Blast damage). Petrified explosions are unaffected by range or power strength. This explosion would trigger no matter who or what kills them, it's something that would be inherent to petrified enemies.

2-3 Rublmers + Atlas who are pretty quickly stoning everything that is stone-able within 8m. 

I have to disagree with your instant cast petrify. That would make Petrify a lot better BUT it doesn't fix the "Why cast Petrify instead of punching them again? I'm going to Ragdoll them anyways." The same applies to the Path of Statues mod. Petrifying people in front of me don't matter. Petrifying distant people is what matters. My petrify change would be a way to petrify distant people without Petrifying a whole screen, because that'd be broken. 

14 hours ago, Buddhakingpen said:

if you wanted to just chuck some ideas around for funsies, this is awesome. But if we're being realistic, DE doesnt listen when the community tries to gut their frames with their own remakes. They listen when the community gives them solid and constructive feedback to build off of the work they've already done. So things like

"remove the mobility reduction on petrify, make petrify buff rumblers and tectonics"

"make tectonics bigger, and the boulder affect a wider radius"

"make rumblers add to the combo counter"

Things like that are what DE listens to for reworks. The only time they gut a frames moves are when game mechanics dictate that it must be done (like giving excal exalted blade after they made super jump obsolete with parkour). But they never fully change something just because people dont like it. 

You're really depressing me but you're right. Throwing ideas for funsies is fun but my goal with this thread is to actually contribute to Atlas in a constructively welcomed way. Here's my suggestions doing it yours/their way: 

Allow Landslide to target ragdolled enemies or change it to a knockdown. 

Give Tectonics boulder stronger and wider hitbox. Or, preferably, redesign the skill to fit his "command earthly elementals" theme. 

Make Petrify a full circular AOE instead of a cone, as a cone it doesn't hit enough people to reliable CC in a battle. Increase its energy cost to balance this out and maybe nerf the range slightly so that we can't CC a whole room. 

Buff Rumblers AI, damage, and attack speed so that they are a viable build vs Landslide.