Inaccurate Damage Numbers? Let's find the Solution!

[Gerdaro]

You are very brave.

I have 450+ hours and still dont have the courage to face this kind of stuff

[-Define-]

4 minutes ago, Robolaser said:

Why bother with rigorousness and consistency when one can get away with absolute lack of transparency? I took YEARS of players requests for DE to add a few additional basic weapon stats in the arsenal UI. Some weapons, like the mutalist quanta, still have a completely erratic bevior, despite time consuming reviews and feedback from players. Most have gave up out of frustration. In fact, i'm pretty convinced DE themsleves aren't quite sure how their own game works XD

Your efforts are commendable, though.

 

1 minute ago, Gerdaro said:

You are very brave.

I have 450+ hours and still dont have the courage to face this kind of stuff

With reaching MR 13 and obtaining the Tigris Prime and all the mods to "minmax" it in the best ways that are at the moment known to us, i reached the goal i set myself.

 

Trying to minmax the Weapon, which at the moment seems to be the most damaging primary, led me to try to compare it to others.

For that it's important to understand how the Damage is calculated, which encouraged me to try to figure it out. The wiki seemed like a good start, but the numbers didn't seem to be accurate after testing.

 

 

Due to the lack of information out in the internet and the limited ammount of sources about this topic I am hoping to be able to find the answer together with you guys, so people who take an interest in minmaxing have a source where they can take information from which is thoroughly tested and thus reliable.

I plan on editing the initial post, once we find something concrete, so it is easily accessable to new people who join the Thread.

 

 

The more people there are, who all have their own way of approaching the topic will lead us to finding the correct solution quicker.

I highly appreciate any form of help or comment on this matter regardless of how simple it may seem.

 

[Justice_Ember]

Commendable effort OP, I'm sure that if this thread lives long enough someone will speak to some of the calculations. Soon°

[-Define-]

4 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

Commendable effort OP, I'm sure that if this thread lives long enough someone will speak to some of the calculations. Soon°

Thanks alot, that would be awesome!

 

Now for a little Update

Example is the Braton Prime:

 

apparently the Base Damage Numbers shown in game are rounded to the first Decimal Fraction (Example: 12,25 -> 12,3) :

Spoiler

(click it for better resolution)

    -----------------------------> 

 

 

 

Going forward, the Multiplication from Mods like Serration is wrong:

Spoiler

The Ingame Image:

(click it for better resolution)

 

Now Multiplying the damage in the sheet (or any other calculator):

With the Numbers from the Wiki:                                                                                                With the ingame Numbers:

                                                    

 

None of the results match the displayed Ingame Values, nor do they round to the displayed Stats.

Now going forward, which values should i continue my calculations with?

 

The Braton Prime Calculation (-attempts v.v):

With the Displayed calculation from the Wiki 

Against unarmored hit points or applying Finishing damage, the formula is simply:

Inflicted Damage = Base Damage × (1 + Hitpoint Modifier)

at base (Desired Value 43):

(click it for better resolution)

the values are wrong, so i tried to take a different approach.

 

With the Sentence from the Wiki...

"It's important to note that type modifiers against armor work in two ways here: they mitigate a percentage of the target's armor, and increase the damage dealt in the same way as a type modifier against the hitpoints would do."

I went through the Wiki's "Charger" page again and saw...

 

Now since the Charger has 0 Armor it does not mitigate any damage, but since it works in two ways the Damage Multiplier should still affect it.

This Means applied to the Wikis Formula for Damage Multipliers :

Impact Multiplier = 100%

Puncture Multiplier = 150%

Slash Multiplier = 106,25%

Spoiler

Slash Multi!

 

If we apply the new Multipliers to our Sheet we get the following results (the Red Number is the rounded value):

(click it for better resolution)

 

I used this with different ranks of "Serration" and "Heavy Caliber" to calculate the expected Damage for different Modded Multipliers and tested them Ingame:

 

Sadly at 45% and 75% the result was not accurate.

(If people want me to upload pictures from the ingame tests i can do so, but i thought the post is already long enough.)

Now those calculations were made with the Ingame shown base Values of the Braton Prime. If we apply the Wiki given base stats or the ingame given wrongly multiplied Modded stats the numbers get scewed and this can not produce accurate results.

 

To Conclude (cause im at it for 7 hours now trying to figure this out and i'd still like to play some actual warframe):

______________________________________________________

I can reproduce the base Damage of 43 in many different ways:

Just another Example of many i could give:

Rounddown Base Values: 1 I ; 12 P ; 21 S

Add them together : 1+12+21 = 34

Multiply them by the total Multipliers (not taken the Ferrite Armor into Account): 34*100%*100%*125% = 42,5

Round (since rounding is in the game -> Weapon base stats): 42,5 ~~ 43

______________________________________________________

To rule out the wrong approaches I decided to add Flat Damage Modifiers (Serration and Heavy Caliber) which caused the content above...

 

All in all:

Im not an inch closer to the result and the wrongly multiplied modded values ingame add more questions to it.

Edited November 10, 2017 by -Define-

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

12 hours ago, -Define- said:

The Ingame Image:

(click it for better resolution)

 

Now Multiplying the damage in the sheet (or any other calculator):

With the Numbers from the Wiki:                                                                                                With the ingame Numbers:

                                                    

 

None of the results match the displayed Ingame Values, nor do they round to the displayed Stats.

So, I may have figured this out, although I don't like what I had to do to get there.

I took the damage numbers from the UI, added them, then multiplied by 1.45 to add the 45%.  This gives 50.895.  If you drop the decimal and go with just 50, then re-apportion the damage numbers by their listed percentages (i.e. slash is 60% of the damage) you get to the numbers shown in the UI.

[Nazrethim]

20 hours ago, -Define- said:

Logically this doesn't make sence tho, why would Impact and Puncture Damage be affected by the Slash damage Multiplier.

Maybe the game calculates the total IPS damage using the highest of the 3. So a weapon with 10 Imp, 5 Slash, 5 Pun, will calculate everything as Impact. And the different damage types are just there for Status.

It's all tinfoil hat theory but that could explain.

[-Define-]

5 hours ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

So, I may have figured this out, although I don't like what I had to do to get there.

I took the damage numbers from the UI, added them, then multiplied by 1.45 to add the 45%.  This gives 50.895.  If you drop the decimal and go with just 50, then re-apportion the damage numbers by their listed percentages (i.e. slash is 60% of the damage) you get to the numbers shown in the UI.

This is indeed correct and reproducable even on other weapons (also tested with soma prime).

I will add it to the initial post so people can see it. Thank you so much for your contribution!

 

4 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Maybe the game calculates the total IPS damage using the highest of the 3. So a weapon with 10 Imp, 5 Slash, 5 Pun, will calculate everything as Impact. And the different damage types are just there for Status.

It's all tinfoil hat theory but that could explain.

This is a good thought, but how would that work with e.g "Flesh" ? It has a -25% DMG Multiplier on Impact and a +25% DMG Multiplier on Slash.

Btw the Soma Prime seems to calculate accurately with the Normal formula of just Inflicted Damage = Base Damage × (1 + Hitpoint Modifier)

 

applied to every damage and its modifier type individually and then add the results together against a "Corpus Tech":

Hitpoint Modifier Type "Flesh": (-25% I | 0% P | +25% S)

Soma Prime (Ingame Values: 51 | Crit 152)

(click it for higher resolution)

 

on the other hand the Braton doesn't:

Braton Prime (Ingame Values: 162 | Crit 324)

(click for higher resolution)

 

Since they are both assault rifles i think we can safely assume that the Weapon Type has no impact on the calculations.

It rather seems that every weapon has its own way of Damage Calculation, which will make comparing them very difficult.

 

I cannot stress enough that more transparency on that matter from DE's side would be highly appreciated!

Edited November 10, 2017 by -Define-

[disco_inferno6]

On 2/11/2017 at 5:50 PM, -Define- said:

<snip>

I think I might have the solution to this.

Found the time to do some more testing and discussed it with friends.

Will respond soon.

[disco_inferno6]

On 2/11/2017 at 5:50 PM, -Define- said:

<snip>

Every weapon has a small damage discrepancy when unmodded.

That discrepancy is addivite (negative or positive) and not proportional to modding. Sort of an off tick.

This discrepancy (it is speculated among players) acts as signature per weapon for the game code to recognise it is that particular weapon shooting.

If you mod the weapon, that discrepancy dissipates.

 

That (I believe) is the explanation.

 

Edited March 9, 2018 by disco_inferno6