Harrow first ability

[GTXproject001]

I just got harrow and he’s amazing. But I think his first ability should also be amiable to air. 

Edited November 3, 2017 by GTXproject001
Misunderstanding

[InDueTime-EN-]

Uhm.. its ok as it is right now, and it makes sense that something that travels on the floor could not be cast in the air.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Also every single enemy, bar the jet pack grineer, never goes high enough to be out of range of the cast.

[Lholland]

2 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Also every single enemy, bar the jet pack grineer, never goes high enough to be out of range of the cast.

And not even them with enough range

Edited November 2, 2017 by Lholland

[KirukaChan]

Harrow's first ability is fine. His second and third powers are what need work, in my opinion.

[PsiWarp]

Hehe, a flying Harrow ghost would be funny (since it's his afterimage that floats along the ground swinging the thurible).

[GTXproject001]

Guys I don’t mean to cast ability while I’m in air,I meant I can cast/shoot the ability to air.

Edited November 3, 2017 by GTXproject001

[GrimmMonsoon.ttv]

On 03/11/2017 at 8:44 AM, KirukaChan said:

Harrow's first ability is fine. His second and third powers are what need work, in my opinion.

How so? Personally I think his second and third are amazing when used together and with his fourth. There’s so much synergy. What needs changing?

[KirukaChan]

31 minutes ago, GrimMonsoon said:

How so? Personally I think his second and third are amazing when used together and with his fourth. There’s so much synergy. What needs changing?

My main problem with Thurible is that it requires Harrow to make kills to gain energy. I don't see how Thurible is better at anything than Energy Vampire in its current incarnation (especially since it's impossible to waste a cast of Energy Vampire). If this was changed to also count kills from companions and allies, I'd get much more use out of it in a team setting.

Penance, on the other hand...my main issue with it is that it not only eats all of Harrow's shields, it costs 50 energy to cast. Compare that to Valkyr's Paralysis, which has a tiny energy cost, only uses a third of her shields (and doesn't even need any to cast the power in the first place) and doesn't leave her vulnerable at all thanks to her massive armor value as well as the ability to pop Hysteria basically whenever (whereas Harrow's Covenant's invincibility will either suffer from a short duration or a long window between uses depending on how you mod him). The health gain function has a similar problem as Thurible has; you have to compete for kills to even get that effect going, but I could ignore that if the energy cost was lowered significantly.

These issues are less present in solo play, but 3 of Harrow's 4 powers benefit teammates, so I'd prefer to get better use out of him in a team setting instead of just spamming Condemn on everything and using Covenant as a panic button.

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 03/11/2017 at 1:56 PM, GTXproject001 said:

Guys I don’t mean to cast ability while I’m in air,I meant I can cast/shoot the ability to air.

Again, why? There aren't any enemies up there. The only enemy that is out of range of the cast are the grineer enemies with jetpacks, and only one, just one, of those goes up and stays up, the Grineer Hellion.

There are no aerial enemies that his 1 can't reach besides that single grineer enemy, all the Corpus and infested Ospreys can be hit by it, so why have it aimable towards the air when there's nothing to hit up there?

[GTXproject001]

When I’m down stairs and enemy is up for example. This ability won’t even travel on stairs.

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 minutes ago, GTXproject001 said:

When I’m down stairs and enemy is up for example. This ability won’t even travel on stairs.

So what you want is not the ability to aim up, it's to make the ability track vertically along the navigation mesh as well as horizontally.

See, if you'd answered with that to my original comment, a lot of this debate wouldn't be happening ^^ A very, very key point when looking to improve a frame is the terminology you use, if you don't use the right words to describe what you want, players think you want something else.

Because that function, being able to accurately go up stairs when you're aiming at them, is something I can agree with.

[(XBOX)weedyodaa]

On 11/2/2017 at 6:14 PM, KirukaChan said:

Harrow's first ability is fine. His second and third powers are what need work, in my opinion.

How does his other two abilities need work? His second literally (yes, it takes your shields) gives you health for every kill you get, and his third you can charge for as long as you want (as long as you have a decent amount of energy) and get that certain amount of energy for every kill you get, PLUS for people around you. If anything, those two abilities are some of his BEST. They're just fine.

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Mythical Warden said:

How does his other two abilities need work? His second literally (yes, it takes your shields) gives you health for every kill you get, and his third you can charge for as long as you want (as long as you have a decent amount of energy) and get that certain amount of energy for every kill you get, PLUS for people around you. If anything, those two abilities are some of his BEST. They're just fine.

Just because I've read some of the views on this; it's because they function 'optimally' if you're the one killing. Your 2 only heals allies from your kills, not from theirs, which would be a better team buff, and your 3 only gives energy to you if they're your kills, allies gain the function too, but there's no energy share from kills not from you to your allies or from your allies to you. It creates a bit of an imbalance of support power, since basically every time you want to actually support your team by healing them, you have to convince them not to kill things while you do it to spread healing, and if you want your own energy restored, you have to convince people not to kill things so that you can have targets to gain energy from.

The abilities are great for solo play, amazing even, but in a squad you often find that another player has an ability/weapon/combo of both that will wipe out large amounts of enemies before you can actually make the best use of your own abilities and weapons.

That said... I'm not too fussed, I think that in order to fix these abilities to do that amount of team support and healing DE would also require their base power to be nerfed a little to compensate for the improvement.

[PsiWarp]

Where does this misconception of needing a kill for Penance's Life Strike on guns and melee come from? All you do is turn on Penance, hit an enemy to do some damage, and free health across 50 meters.

[(XBOX)weedyodaa]

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

Just because I've read some of the views on this; it's because they function 'optimally' if you're the one killing. Your 2 only heals allies from your kills, not from theirs, which would be a better team buff, and your 3 only gives energy to you if they're your kills, allies gain the function too, but there's no energy share from kills not from you to your allies or from your allies to you. It creates a bit of an imbalance of support power, since basically every time you want to actually support your team by healing them, you have to convince them not to kill things while you do it to spread healing, and if you want your own energy restored, you have to convince people not to kill things so that you can have targets to gain energy from.

The abilities are great for solo play, amazing even, but in a squad you often find that another player has an ability/weapon/combo of both that will wipe out large amounts of enemies before you can actually make the best use of your own abilities and weapons.

That said... I'm not too fussed, I think that in order to fix these abilities to do that amount of team support and healing DE would also require their base power to be nerfed a little to compensate for the improvement.

The main idea of you only getting the kills as a support is DE's introduction of "Hey, don't be a lazy, crappy support player and let others do all the work for you for their own benefit." This is basically a big F YOU to the people who like being lazy as a support player. I, personally, LOVE the idea of actually working as a support, so you're basically not an idiot standing there waving around a mace. If you want to have people do the work for you, play as someone else.

But hey, you never know, they might release augments for Harrow for his 3rd ability to make it to where that if you have your ability active, everyone inside that little bubble you're in gets kills, they get energy for everyone else. Honestly, for me, that just completely kills the idea of working as a support. It's lazy.

Now, for soloing missions? Absolutely, his abilities are fantastic. But as you said, for the people in your game who have those "End game" combos and stuff like that, (that cheeses the game, but I'm not complaining) just ask them in chat to chill out. Plus, his third ability is only really for people who are running low on energy, which most of the time for me, I see people with pretty high energy pools and can keep their energy around for a long period of time. You could always self-buff with spamming your first ability and then use your second, then go RIGHT back to spamming your first ability to get un-friggen-believable amounts of overshield back to keep yourself alive. Just the sheer idea of gaining 100, to 200, maybe even 300 shields for every enemy hit by it is amazing. Honestly, Harrow is a great solo and group Warframe.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Mythical Warden said:

I, personally, LOVE the idea of actually working as a support, so you're basically not an idiot standing there waving around a mace. If you want to have people do the work for you, play as someone else.

Yeah, you kiiiiinda missed my point. You know how all these people complain about Ember mains running through missions killing everything? Or dislike Banshee sitting in the middle of the map with a max-range Quake going? It's that. That's the kind of thing that ruins Harrow's abilities, because it's not that you're being lazy, it's that the game has abilities and weapons that will out-pace you and actively prevent you from doing your job.

It's pretty difficult to get your shields up if somebody is sprinting through an Exterminate smashing everything two rooms ahead of you, so it's then difficult to get your healing/reload going, and then it's difficult to actually reclaim energy on your Thurible... yeah... see?

The point is that even if you're actively trying to get the kills, someone else that doesn't get the idea may just... not.... let you because they're trigger happy, not paying attention to chat, are a non-English speaker (European servers have a real mix of the English and European speakers), or genuinely don't give a flying pig about you because they're getting the mission done faster than you are.

[(XBOX)weedyodaa]

3 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Yeah, you kiiiiinda missed my point. You know how all these people complain about Ember mains running through missions killing everything? Or dislike Banshee sitting in the middle of the map with a max-range Quake going? It's that. That's the kind of thing that ruins Harrow's abilities, because it's not that you're being lazy, it's that the game has abilities and weapons that will out-pace you and actively prevent you from doing your job.

It's pretty difficult to get your shields up if somebody is sprinting through an Exterminate smashing everything two rooms ahead of you, so it's then difficult to get your healing/reload going, and then it's difficult to actually reclaim energy on your Thurible... yeah... see?

The point is that even if you're actively trying to get the kills, someone else that doesn't get the idea may just... not.... let you because they're trigger happy, not paying attention to chat, are a non-English speaker (European servers have a real mix of the English and European speakers), or genuinely don't give a flying pig about you because they're getting the mission done faster than you are.

No, you missed MY point. Let me requote myself.

5 hours ago, (Xbox One)Mythical Warden said:

But as you said, for the people in your game who have those "End game" combos and stuff like that, (that cheeses the game, but I'm not complaining) just ask them in chat to chill out. Plus, his third ability is only really for people who are running low on energy, which most of the time for me, I see people with pretty high energy pools and can keep their energy around for a long period of time.

This is what I said to counter your argument about players who use those end-game types of builds, or builds that do massive AoE to people nearby you. That includes all the examples that you stated in your first paragraph, that being the Ember example and the Banshee example you put up. You can simply just type in game chat "Yo, can you cut that out? I'm trying to build up my shields." Some players, like myself, instinctively let the Harrow in our group get some of the kills for himself because we ALL are benefitting from it. But, if there are people who will be an a-hole and continue with it, then.. Well, we can't really control that.

As for communication with others.. Well, it depends on what region you place yourself in. If you put yourself as the american region, nine times out of ten.. People are going to speak english.. Plus, why the hell would you go to the  European servers to begin with if you know that all the people there are probably not going to understand much english? The sense I see in that is.. None. 

Not to mention, you don't need a harrow for everything. I'll give a list of what I prefer taking my Harrow on;

• Defense
• Survival
• Mobile defense (occasionally)
• Endurance runs (this includes Defense and Survival, but to end-game levels.)

The most important thing to remember is to communicate with your team. Especially in a game like Warframe. They have their chat boxes for a reason. To chat. Sure, you can argue that not all people speak english, but that mainly just depends in what server you put yourself in. 

To sum up this whole argument, no. No, no, no, Harrow does not need changes. It's just you have to know who you're playing with. If you don't like playing with randoms, play with friends who know what they're doing, not standing around with their thumbs up their own rears and stealing all the kills. Yeah, I get those people too, a LOT, but almost every time I asked for them to cut it out, they stopped, and waited for me to finish up with what I was doing, and then I gave them the green light to go back to do what they're doing after finished. 

Big money Warden, over and out, Broski.

[Sablesword]

If people actually need energy from the Harrow, they will no longer be nuking everything because they've run out of energy. The problem largely solves itself. 

[Borg1611]

If you're in a low trash mob situation like some boss fights it's possible you won't get many kills. You could also be in a situation where you're not getting many kills and you get drained or something, then your 3 falls off. Then you have to wait to get energy, drain it all again, then kill something. I don't see why his 3 can't be made to restore a smaller amount of energy when dealing damage leaving it with it's max amount on kills so that there aren't situations where his 3 just becomes garbage. 

It'd also be nice if his 4 had some DR on top of the crit buff so that it wasn't this obnoxious situation where it's a defensive buff half the time and an offensive buff half the time. That makes it clunky and unreliable at both things. 

[Adniwhack]

Looking at the conversation at how Harrow's abilities are placed in the game, and being that Harrow is my new favorite warframe now, I can give my few cents on what Harrow is great for. However, I may repeat some of the points others may have said, and if so, I will apologize beforehand. Happy? Here we go.

Harrow's 2nd and 3rd abilities require Harrow to be killing enemies in order to build up the support he can give to the team mates.  THerefore, I find that he is in a fine position in the category of supports. However, in the case where Embers or Banshees are involved, I too have faced trouble with building support. In those cases, I would not provide any support until their abilities have stopped.

His abilities, thus far, excel in high level combat, where the Ember and Banshees can do little to damage the enemies. So, I always carry harrow in these type of missions, with a high damage weapon (Pref. The Tigris Prime, or now my new mostly used, Astilla)

So, I would like to summarize what I would do in order to excel my Harrow in these situations: 

1. Build Harrow for High Health, Duration, and normal range (Strength is optional)
2. Get a high damage and fast firing shotgun (Astilla) and Carrier Prime
3. Take a few energy Packs (Large ones because you will need these if you ever fall out of energy, but there will be less opportunities).
4. In mission start, Cast 3 for 5s.
5. Shoot some enemies and get enough energy for 4 and 2. 
6. Cast 4 and then 2.
7. With the increased fire rate and crit chance, kill more enemies, and fill the energy bar.
8. Cast 1 to enemies to get overshields.
9. Cast 4 and 2 to get Fire rate and crit chance.
10. rinse and repeat.

This may not be the optimal play, and I have changed my combos according to situation, but overall Harrow is in a great place in the Support Sector.  Compared to Oberon and Trinity, He needs more skill to get that extra survivability.

Please comment on what I have written so far.

[(XBOX)weedyodaa]

5 hours ago, Adniwhack said:

Looking at the conversation at how Harrow's abilities are placed in the game, and being that Harrow is my new favorite warframe now, I can give my few cents on what Harrow is great for. However, I may repeat some of the points others may have said, and if so, I will apologize beforehand. Happy? Here we go.

Harrow's 2nd and 3rd abilities require Harrow to be killing enemies in order to build up the support he can give to the team mates.  THerefore, I find that he is in a fine position in the category of supports. However, in the case where Embers or Banshees are involved, I too have faced trouble with building support. In those cases, I would not provide any support until their abilities have stopped.

His abilities, thus far, excel in high level combat, where the Ember and Banshees can do little to damage the enemies. So, I always carry harrow in these type of missions, with a high damage weapon (Pref. The Tigris Prime, or now my new mostly used, Astilla)

So, I would like to summarize what I would do in order to excel my Harrow in these situations: 

1. Build Harrow for High Health, Duration, and normal range (Strength is optional)
2. Get a high damage and fast firing shotgun (Astilla) and Carrier Prime
3. Take a few energy Packs (Large ones because you will need these if you ever fall out of energy, but there will be less opportunities).
4. In mission start, Cast 3 for 5s.
5. Shoot some enemies and get enough energy for 4 and 2. 
6. Cast 4 and then 2.
7. With the increased fire rate and crit chance, kill more enemies, and fill the energy bar.
8. Cast 1 to enemies to get overshields.
9. Cast 4 and 2 to get Fire rate and crit chance.
10. rinse and repeat.

This may not be the optimal play, and I have changed my combos according to situation, but overall Harrow is in a great place in the Support Sector.  Compared to Oberon and Trinity, He needs more skill to get that extra survivability.

Please comment on what I have written so far.

Some of your points are alright, but.. You need strength for your Harrow. Quite a bit of it. The issue that bothers me a LOT about other players who play Harrow is they don't build up shield. You need to build up shield to increase more duration for Harrow's second ability. Plus, strength is key for his first and third ability. His first, if you build more strength, actually increases the amount of shielding you get from each enemy that's caught in his chains AND his maximum allowance for overshield. [I can get almost 3,700 Overshielf.]. His third ability, if you want to not loose energy so fast, you need a bit of a high energy pool AND strength because it decreases the ammount of energy it takes to cast and actually increases the rate of how much energy you gain. 

Another thing I noticed is you said build him for health... Don't build Harrow for health. Terrible idea. Build him for shields, and here's why; You can increase the ammount of shields he has by triple the amount, so take around 1,200 and multiply that by triple the amount.. You're getting well over 3,600 shield. Plus, you need shield for his second ability. The higher shields you have, the longer your second ability works. Plus, you can stack it. If you keep gaining shields and using your second ability, you can have a maximum of 90 seconds for how long your second ability lasts. Oh, and one last thing.. Try to squeeze Stretch in there. It's amazing.

[Ravenwulfe]

My only issue with Harrow is that in most PUG groups Harrow is pretty much going to suck wind because of his reliance on making kills to use his powers. They need to change Thurible, at least, to at least provide a third energy return when other team players make kills. Especially those that like to hold down mouse 1 and spray and pray with their somas.

[(XBOX)weedyodaa]

1 minute ago, ChampionSheWolf said:

My only issue with Harrow is that in most PUG groups Harrow is pretty much going to suck wind because of his reliance on making kills to use his powers. They need to change Thurible, at least, to at least provide a third energy return when other team players make kills. Especially those that like to hold down mouse 1 and spray and pray with their somas.

[Sigh]

....

16 hours ago, (Xbox One)Mythical Warden said:

This is what I said to counter your argument about players who use those end-game types of builds, or builds that do massive AoE to people nearby you. That includes all the examples that you stated in your first paragraph, that being the Ember example and the Banshee example you put up. You can simply just type in game chat "Yo, can you cut that out? I'm trying to build up my shields." Some players, like myself, instinctively let the Harrow in our group get some of the kills for himself because we ALL are benefitting from it. But, if there are people who will be an a-hole and continue with it, then.. Well, we can't really control that.

I've clearly stated that if you let OTHER people inside your bubble while using Thurible would completely kill the idea of being a good support. If you wanna be a lazy support, play Trinity. 

[Ravenwulfe]

34 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Mythical Warden said:

[Sigh]

....

I've clearly stated that if you let OTHER people inside your bubble while using Thurible would completely kill the idea of being a good support. If you wanna be a lazy support, play Trinity. 

Your statement falls under ignorant at this point. You can get off your high horse and drop the elitism attitude. No, it would not kill the idea of Thurible being good support. Such willful ignorance is completely hypocritical. This attempt to try and sound and act superior it just completely inept. So again get off your high and mighty elitist horse. I get kills but saying it's a high skill frame is delusional at best, and woefully ignorant.

Edited November 9, 2017 by ChampionSheWolf