"please Put Armor Ignore On <Insert Weapon's Name>"

[theangelbelow88]

"the weapon would be great if it had armor ignore, otherwise worthless"

 

"I love the weapon, too bad it doesn't have armor ignore"

 

"this weapon is useless on higher levels, feels like a pee-shooter, it needs armor ignore"

 

"Just going to use the weapon for rank since it cant compare to my <name of armor ignoring weapon>"

 

"Wow, this weapon is awesome, but I hope DE Buffs it, maybe they will give it armor ignore"

 

I already did a big thread on this, so I'll just keep this one short. These are just some example of whats all over the place, when it comes to discussing weapons, personally I'm getting pretty sick of seeing this, DE really needs to fix the armor scaling in this game, armor ignore should be a perk not a must.

[Fundance]

I feel like weapons that DON'T have armor ignore should have other means to compensate for it. In most games where armor ignore/pierce weapons exist, they exist as speciallist weapons for taking down certain types of enemy, while being weaker than others against regular mobs. In this game hower, due to the way damage types work, armor pierce/ignore is just a straight up boost to damage a lot of the time.

[AscendantWyvern]

I agree, enemy armor either needs to work like ours, or other elements need to have similar advantages.

[theangelbelow88]

I feel like weapons that DON'T have armor ignore should have other means to compensate for it. In most games where armor ignore/pierce weapons exist, they exist as speciallist weapons for taking down certain types of enemy, while being weaker than others against regular mobs. In this game hower, due to the way damage types work, armor pierce/ignore is just a straight up boost to damage a lot of the time.

I know, the game makes it that if your weapon doesn't have armor ignore and/or high armor piercing then it just can compete on higher levels.

 

I agree, enemy armor either needs to work like ours, or other elements need to have similar advantages.

Yeah, aside from the armor piercing element. Ice, fire and electricity just don't cut it on tough enemies.

Edited July 28, 2013 by theangelbelow88

[Fundance]

The other elements all add (semi-redundant) crowd control in exchange for damage. But the silly thing is that Ice trumps fire and electricity when it comes to CC by a long shot, and  you don't use fire for the damage because that's what you'd use armor pierce for. Electricity is only good against Corpus and even then it's still only slightly more effective than ice, which works well vs everything.

 

I don't even know if fire is more effective vs infested than armor pierce. A combination of armor pierce and fire should be optimal vs the ancients, but armor pierce is pretty much all you need to take them down.

 

And then there's armor ignore (physics impact damage), which is a slightly less effective version of armor pierce. Again, sort of redundant. Maybe in the future these damage types will be more different?

 

Another thing I find really silly is that armor pen mods actually benefit weapons that already have ap type damage. Rightfully we should be able to compensate for lack of armor pen by dropping an armor pen mod into any weapon. But nope, it doesn't work that way. It won't bring those weapons up to par with natural AP weapons because natural AP weapons can ALSO utilise the bonuses from AP mods.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Fundance

[BigSchmexy]

armor ignore weapons do reduced damage to infested and you can give any weapon armor pen

[Fundance]

armor ignore weapons do reduced damage to infested and you can give any weapon armor pen

Yeah but you can put armor pen mods on armor pen weapons for even more damage. So yes, you can give any weapon armor pen...including weapons who already had armor pen, and they benefit from it more.

 

The name armor pen is actually very misleading. What it actually is is % based bonus damage that just happens to be of an element type that's not reduced by armor.

 

So as long as I understand this correctly...say we have a base 30 damage AP weapon vs a target with 1000000000 armor and using a 50% AP mod. You attack the target, you do 30 damage because it's not reduced by the armor at all, plus another 15 damage from the mod.

 

As opposed to a non-AP weapon with an AP mod of the same properties.

The initial damage from the first hit will be completely ignored because of the armor. Only the damage from the mod will go through.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Fundance

[theangelbelow88]

armor ignore weapons do reduced damage to infested and you can give any weapon armor pen

Not true, most armor ignoring weapons that deal less damage to infested also do more damage to grineer, like Fang or despair but most armor ignoring weapons are like the Kunai, deal armor ignoring damage without an increase or decrease on any faction, and 60% and 30% armor piercing for rifles and pistols isn't enough to make them viable on higher level content.

Edited July 28, 2013 by theangelbelow88

[Tatersail]

yet another Armor post...  DE isn't listening..

 

there are 1000s of these posts...

 

Pretty sure the Dev team don't leave Mercury for weapon tests

Edited July 28, 2013 by Tatersail

[ToeSama]

Pretty sure the Dev team don't leave Mercury for weapon tests

 

You must have the faith of a saint. I don't even think they test these weapons at ALL personally...

[Bakim0n0]

Armor ignore = true damage

Armor pen = elemental damage subject to resist and weaknesses.

[KIREEK]

I feel like weapons that DON'T have armor ignore should have other means to compensate for it. I

 

They do, they do more damage.

The damage may get nuliffied, but elemental damage compensates the loss.

 

Boltor for example does less damage and that turns into less elemental damage, other weapons do more damage and even when that damage is removed, the elemental damage (all 4 of them) compensate the loss.

 

Since armor is low at the start of the game, normal damage weapons deal more damage then armor ignore ones, later on things change and they get even.

 

So in short, asking for a armor ignore on the weapons will result in a damage nerf to keep things balanced.

 

High damage and armor ignore will be considered OP, just like the Kunai

[LazyKnight]

They do, they do more damage.

The damage may get nuliffied, but elemental damage compensates the loss.

 

Boltor for example does less damage and that turns into less elemental damage, other weapons do more damage and even when that damage is removed, the elemental damage (all 4 of them) compensate the loss.

 

Since armor is low at the start of the game, normal damage weapons deal more damage then armor ignore ones, later on things change and they get even.

 

So in short, asking for a armor ignore on the weapons will result in a damage nerf to keep things balanced.

 

High damage and armor ignore will be considered OP, just like the Kunai

Not true, things that have scaling armor also scale in resistance all the way to 1 damage from all source that are NOT AP or Ai damage.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Enemy_Vulnerabilities

http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1gsnxe/mobs_scaling_and_armor/

 

I want to see them get a new armor/resistance system before ANY announcements about new weapons or Warframes. This is issue makes using weapons that are not in the Ai/AP class of weapon pointless in any defense or void mission that goes higher than 70.

Edited July 28, 2013 by LazyKnight

[litlit]

IMO, it's not weapons that need to change.

 

I think scaling armor and resistances on enemies simply shouldn't exist. For example, Grineer Lancers might have enough armor to give 30% damage mitigation, Grineer Napalm might have 60% or more, Corpus Crewman and Tech heads would block maybe 90% -- no matter what level they are.

 

Also, armor ignore and innate armor piercing damage on weapons should disappear from the game. Along with this, armor piercing mods for all weapon types should be equal -- you should be able to mod shotguns, rifles, bows, snipers, pistols, thrown weapons, and all melee to have the same total amount of armor pierce for the same amount of mod capacity slots. I don't know what numbers would be good, but if, for example, you could spend 18 slots to get shotguns up to 150% armor pierce damage, you should also be able to spend 18 slots to get 150% for every other weapon type.

 

I think this would be a great start to fixing the game's overall balance. It would go a long way to breaking down the distinct tiers of weapons -- people wouldn't be saying Kunai/Despair or Acrid are the only viable secondaries. It would allow a lot more variety to high level play without having any impact on variety at low or mid level play (I would bring my Despair because I think they're cool + flashy, not because they're super overpowered and my maxed out Lex does 3 damage to a level 150 Grineer). Futhermore, Armor Piercing mods would be situational even for high level play -- definitely bring them along for the Grineer, and maybe for the Corpus if you have an accurate weapon you want to get headshots with.

 

edit:

To scale enemy durability as level increases, just give them more health. I don't know how much exactly, but the point is that I think enemy durability should increase in such a way that doesn't leave just a small handful of viable weapons available to players.

Edited July 28, 2013 by litlir

[Shroudb]

IMO, it's not weapons that need to change.

 

I think scaling armor and resistances on enemies simply shouldn't exist. For example, Grineer Lancers might have enough armor to give 30% damage mitigation, Grineer Napalm might have 60% or more, Corpus Crewman and Tech heads would block maybe 90% -- no matter what level they are.

 

Also, armor ignore and innate armor piercing damage on weapons should disappear from the game. Along with this, armor piercing mods for all weapon types should be equal -- you should be able to mod shotguns, rifles, bows, snipers, pistols, thrown weapons, and all melee to have the same total amount of armor pierce for the same amount of mod capacity slots. I don't know what numbers would be good, but if, for example, you could spend 18 slots to get shotguns up to 150% armor pierce damage, you should also be able to spend 18 slots to get 150% for every other weapon type.

 

I think this would be a great start to fixing the game's overall balance. It would go a long way to breaking down the distinct tiers of weapons -- people wouldn't be saying Kunai/Despair or Acrid are the only viable secondaries. It would allow a lot more variety to high level play without having any impact on variety at low or mid level play (I would bring my Despair because I think they're cool + flashy, not because they're super overpowered and my maxed out Lex does 3 damage to a level 150 Grineer). Futhermore, Armor Piercing mods would be situational even for high level play -- definitely bring them along for the Grineer, and maybe for the Corpus if you have an accurate weapon you want to get headshots with.

 

edit:

To scale enemy durability as level increases, just give them more health. I don't know how much exactly, but the point is that I think enemy durability should increase in such a way that doesn't leave just a small handful of viable weapons available to players.

the only way to give 150% ap damage to all weapons is if at the same time they remove all and any ap/ai weapons from the game (as you suggested, but just for clarity put toghether here)

 

i personnaly like ap/ai weapons because i  lack the capacity to always aim for weak spot (i suck at targetting^^) BUT i think they should nerf the base damage of AP/AI weapons, so that there is a clear distinction between the weapons: you want more damage? (and by more i don't mean only 10-20%) then you use a normal weapon and aim for weakspots, you want reliable damage but not that high? then get an ap/ai weapon and aim for body shots.

[LazyKnight]

 

To scale enemy durability as level increases, just give them more health. I don't know how much exactly, but the point is that I think enemy durability should increase in such a way that doesn't leave just a small handful of viable weapons available to players.

The only thing they would have to do is double the base health of Grineer and remove the entire line of code dealing with the armor/resistance scaling. Health scales rapidly with "HP:(current_level - base_level)^1.75 * 0.01 * base_hp + base_hp"  and only base health values of NPC need to be adjusted to make NPC harder to kill.

 

They do not even need to change Ai and AP weapons because the other non AI weapon would get a sizable power boost(Ai weapon would only be better at insane high level). Really it wouldn't take long to fix and it DE keeps putting this off or ignores it completely as if it were a non issue.

[theangelbelow88]

I never thought weapons were the issue, even when they introduced throwing knifes I didn't think they off-set the balance of weapons, to me they just helped show how unbalanced armor scaling was.

 

Weapons with armor ignore and/or high armor piercing are not the problem, and from where I stand they can stay the same, if DE caps armor and resistance scaling, then most weapons can fall on more equal ground, and this would make AI and AP more of perk to have and not a must.

 

I just hope DE can start to take notice, and honestly, how could they not, these kind of post are everywhere, why this has not been address is beyond me.

Edited July 28, 2013 by theangelbelow88

[KIREEK]

Grineer light armor - elemental damage doesn't decrease

Infested ancient arm/leg - elemental damage doesn't decrease

 

Plenty of examples really.

 

Yes, enemies do get resistant to elemental damage, but you still do MORE damage when compared with a armor ignore weapon because they deal less damage and that will result in a even lower elemental damage.

 

The resistance is applied on all weapons, the weapon can have 18 or 40 damage that the damage taken off elementals will be the same (since it's % based)

 

I will say it again, armor ignore + high damage will be op

A request for a weapon to be armor ignore will result in a damage nerf.

 

Is there a point where Armor ingore becomes better? yes, it's really far ahead in the game, beeing probably 1% of the entire game.

This happens because the armor ignore damage will be greater than everything else, however never forget that when this happens, enemies have insane health, so ammo economy will be bad.

 

In some SPECIFIC enemies (do not generalize) you can do damage with armor piercing but not everything else right?

So as an example, at some point you will do:

 - with a armor ignore weapon something like this, 10 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 6 (armor piercing) = 19

 - with a normal damage weapon, 1 (as you can imagine, it's something like 15 damage with 99% damage reduction) + 1 + 1 + 1 + 9 = 13

 

The sooner we use these weapons, the sooner you will notice the normal damage weapon to do 2 damage on elementals, despite beeing a nice resistance, by using 2 it will become 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 9 = 17 and so on.

 

If you go even sooner then the elemental damage (including armor piercing) will do more damage overall, this area where i say "more damage" makes the large majority of the game areas and bosses.

 

What i mean by this is that you guys are arguing abuing about the low damage outputs when in fact it's supposed to do low damage, it's not by making the weapon armor ignore that you will suddently kill everything, the ammo econommy at this point is bad, independant on the weapon you use.

All it takes is 1 or 2 levels for enemies to start taking alot less damage when compared with the previous level.

Hell, all it takes is to change enemy for the electrical damage to do 4 times more damage, that's 90% off 10 and 15 damage right?

so that's 9 damage and 13,5 damage

9 * 4 = 36

13,5 * 4 = 54

 

So, on this enemy (that doesn't exist because the enemies that take extra damage from electrical also receive damage from other elements, i don't want to scare you guys) that is:

10 (full damage) + 1 + 1 + 36 + 6 = 54 (do i need to make the other calc?)

 

So the armor ignore weapon deals the same damage as the normal damage weapon when it deals only electrical damage, you probably don't believe it, i'll make the calc in anycase

 

1 ( damage nearly nullified) + 1 + 1 +  54 + 9 = 66

 

I could get very specific, by using an actual corpus crewman, who would take even more damage from armor piercing and other elements, do you want me to add even more to 66 damage? i'm sure whatever is the damage implied here, it will always be superior to armor ignore weapon + elemental, that is if you shoot to the head.

 

 

 

 

No weapon is perfect, if you want to go to wave 100 on defense then an armor ignore is "better" altough the general difficulty to kill enemies will be the same

 

If we consider enemy factions, lvl, weapon and enemy specific location weaknesses then you realize no weapon is beter than the other, there can be situations where shooting to the head will deal more damage with a normal damage weapon and there can be situations where shooting the body will with a armor ignore weapon will deal more damage.

 

Question for the wise, are you asking the devs to make a weapon that is better in all situations, idependant on where you shoot?

Normal damage weapons deal more damage early on and when shooting specific enemies and enemy weak spots (head for example), on top of that you're asking them to make normal damage better at later levels and to do more damage in any enemy spot.

 

I don't know, that sounds OP.

 

If by any change you don't use elementals then armor ignore is better

Edited July 28, 2013 by KIREEKPSO

[Grandarex]

Almost all armor ignore or piercing weapons have either gimped accuracy (bolts and arcs) and/or travel time (bows). 

The only exception being some of the snipers, like Snipetron Vandal. 

 

Anyway, yes. I agree with the spirit of this post. Hopefully DE changes things around to our favor.

[Shroudb]

Grineer light armor - elemental damage doesn't decrease

Infested ancient arm/leg - elemental damage doesn't decrease

 

Plenty of examples really.

 

Yes, enemies do get resistant to elemental damage, but you still do MORE damage when compared with a armor ignore weapon because they deal less damage and that will result in a even lower elemental damage.

 

The resistance is applied on all weapons, the weapon can have 18 or 40 damage that the damage taken off elementals will be the same (since it's % based)

 

I will say it again, armor ignore + high damage will be op

A request for a weapon to be armor ignore will result in a damage nerf.

the problem is that not all ap/ai weapons do low damage:

kunai/despair/vandal snipetron/acrid/etc/etc are not really on the "low" side of the damage spectrum

Edited July 28, 2013 by Shroudb

[theangelbelow88]

Almost all armor ignore or piercing weapons have either gimped accuracy (bolts and arcs) and/or travel time (bows). 

The only exception being some of the snipers, like Snipetron Vandal. 

 

Anyway, yes. I agree with the spirit of this post. Hopefully DE changes things around to our favor.

Well, really gimp accuracy is the only drawback of armor ignoring weapons, and that's normally because of flight time, but even with that said we have none armor ignoring weapons with flight time, Supra, Dera, Dread, Seer,Ogris, Lunka...

 

With that said, yes I would be willing to trade some flight time for a weapon with good damage that also ignores armor, so I don't think giving weapons a flight time that ignore armor is enough to say that's a huge con, its minimal at best.

[Soopineer]

Infested weapons, like that green smoke which ignores our armor and goes straight for our health, why not same effect of a new creepy looking gun?

[theangelbelow88]

Grineer light armor - elemental damage doesn't decrease

Infested ancient arm/leg - elemental damage doesn't decrease

 

Plenty of examples really.

 

Yes, enemies do get resistant to elemental damage, but you still do MORE damage when compared with a armor ignore weapon because they deal less damage and that will result in a even lower elemental damage.

 

The resistance is applied on all weapons, the weapon can have 18 or 40 damage that the damage taken off elementals will be the same (since it's % based)

 

I will say it again, armor ignore + high damage will be op

A request for a weapon to be armor ignore will result in a damage nerf.

And AP damage only decreases on light infested and I think on the standard moa unit, wile other elements get reduced on most units if they are not weakened by it, also hitting weak spots isn't as easy as just being able to spray your target anywhere and still do good damage, and since DE thinks that having 50 enemies jump you with perfect accuracy makes the game "challenging" doesn't always give you time to aim at weak spots.

 

Also only about 2 armor ignoring weapons deal sub-pare damage, Boltor(18), which isn't even that bad and Spectra(8), but everyone knows that even with armor ignore that needs a buff.

 

And this thread was never about asking DE to give all weapons armor ignore, the topic title was just an example of how people's mentality is when it comes to this issue, DE just needs to cap armor scaling and resistance, so the gap between AI/AP weapons and None-AI/AP weapons isn't so wide.

Edited July 28, 2013 by theangelbelow88

[taiiat]

all of these words, and thread version 65,000 of the same topic. the entire discussion boils down to the scaling of enemies at higher levels is very broken. we know. it hasn't changed. it's still broken. 

 

can we stop having 5 of these threads per hour? it's really stupid. everyone has a big long argument, when the only argument is scaling is broken and it needs to be fixed. Digital Extremes knows it's broken, i guarantee it. there's been plenty enough threads before to be noticed. some of the good ones, even mathing things out rather than just talking crap. and the math is what is really useful. 

 

though, i'm sure people will keep talking about this issue, and only this issue. this... is the problem with public testing. people don't test. we're here to find as many problems as possible, not sit on one egg and say we're waiting for it to hatch. 

[Numot]

Infested weapons, like that green smoke which ignores our armor and goes straight for our health, why not same effect of a new creepy looking gun?

Already have it: the Torid.