Why I Dislike the Operator

[UltraLYT]

5 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

It is faster than Volt. That's a fact. It's not quite as fast as a max efficiency/cast speed Nova, but then nothing is.

Faster in what sense?  To complete a task or a mission that requires speed?  Of course not. 

No efficient player would use Void Dash to complete such a mission when Volt can finish the whole job faster, no one would care for arguing that the velocity of Void Dash could be higher than Volt's Speed for the sake of arguing.  

[DreamsmithJane]

1 minute ago, modalmojo said:

Faster in what sense?

Moving. It's faster at moving. Nobody is saying you should abandon your frame and just use the operator for the whole mission. That's stupid, unless you're just doing it to challenge yourself. There's a reason you can switch between them.

[Fleuria]

3 hours ago, racooperii said:

...

I do wish Animal Instinct still worked in Operator Mode, the Mod is loaded in your pet/sentinel so theirs no real good reason for it to not work in Operator Mode.

...

Some sentinel/pet mods benefit your allies - your operator benefits from those.

Some specifically only benefit your frame - your operator does not benefit from those.

[racooperii]

1 hour ago, Fleuria said:

Some sentinel/pet mods benefit your allies - your operator benefits from those.

Some specifically only benefit your frame - your operator does not benefit from those.

Thanks for that captain obvious. Still isnt a good reason as to why Animal Instinct shouldnt apply to your operator.

If they want people to use them more basic QoL features should be extended to include them. Animal instinct is one such QoL feature.

[Klavinmour]

7 hours ago, DeltaPangaea said:

 

I hated when they introduced the Operators. The big secret of the Tenno is not that they're energy beings, or horrific abominations, or even just people in oddly form-shaping suits. No. They're a small ugly-faced child sitting in a a safe little armchair away from all the big bad grineer bullies. And the worst part? The game says 'This is you'. No questions about it. You don't get to name your Tenno. You can't name them something else, your account name is slapped on them regardless of how silly or inappropriate it is. "This is you", the game says. You're not at risk. You're not the cool mysterious space warrior with all the cool guns and powers and agility. You're a spud in a chair, driving them around, never mind that in playing a video game we were already DOING THAT.

The name of the game is Warframe. People are brought in for the Warframes. But no, you're not the interesting, powerful, faceless space warrior. You're a dumpy-looking kid, and the things that brought you into the game? That you got attached to? Empty flesh puppets.

THAT is why I hate the Operators. They ruined the mystery in the worst possible way, and won't stop getting shoved in my face.

My Tenno doesn't look "potato faced" she has a very human and normal looking face.
My Tenno isn't an "emo child" nor acts/says anything as such.

These issues are self made.
Your Tenno looks/acts Emo because you MADE THEM LIKE THAT.
Your Tenno has a potato face because you can't be bothered to change it.

You're supposed to impose yourself as your Tenno, your Tenno is you.
Mine looks and acts like a Scholar/Teacher.

All this talk of the Tenno being "emo kids" is outright confusing to me, as I've yet to see them acting like an emo in any sense.
Hell they don't even dress scene/goth as the default.
YOU have to make them look scene/goth, and if YOU did that you have NO RIGHT to complain that they look like an emo kid, you have no right to complain they look potato faced when YOU did that to them.
That's like going into Saints Row and messing with all the sliders until your character's face looks like a N64 controller and then blaming the game/devs that the character creator is S#&$.

[DeltaPangaea]

20 minutes ago, Klavinmour said:

My Tenno doesn't look "potato faced" she has a very human and normal looking face.
My Tenno isn't an "emo child" nor acts/says anything as such.

These issues are self made.
Your Tenno looks/acts Emo because you MADE THEM LIKE THAT.
Your Tenno has a potato face because you can't be bothered to change it.

You're supposed to impose yourself as your Tenno, your Tenno is you.
Mine looks and acts like a Scholar/Teacher.

All this talk of the Tenno being "emo kids" is outright confusing to me, as I've yet to see them acting like an emo in any sense.
Hell they don't even dress scene/goth as the default.
YOU have to make them look scene/goth, and if YOU did that you have NO RIGHT to complain that they look like an emo kid, you have no right to complain they look potato faced when YOU did that to them.
That's like going into Saints Row and messing with all the sliders until your character's face looks like a N64 controller and then blaming the game/devs that the character creator is S#&$.

I didn't say they were emo kids, so don't pin that on me.

And I don't WANT to impose myself on the Tenno, that's my POINT. Don't bring me into a game about cool mysterious faceless space warriors and then blindside me with 'oh actually they're dumpy kids in big chairs.'

Sorry, 'YOU'RE a dumpy kid in a big chair.'

That's not what I came to this game for, and I don't appreciate being told that I am something I hated from the moment I laid eyes on them. I got to that character creation screen and felt nothing but REVULSION. I overstate how unpleasant they are to look at, and you can make them look fine, but I will NEVER take off my potato's hood, because of what that face REPRESENTS.

'You're not the cool one. You're just a kid driving them around.'

 

[Klavinmour]

10 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

I didn't say they were emo kids, so don't pin that on me.

And I don't WANT to impose myself on the Tenno, that's my POINT. Don't bring me into a game about cool mysterious faceless space warriors and then blindside me with 'oh actually they're dumpy kids in big chairs.'

Sorry, 'YOU'RE a dumpy kid in a big chair.'

That's not what I came to this game for, and I don't appreciate being told that I am something I hated from the moment I laid eyes on them. I got to that character creation screen and felt nothing but REVULSION. I overstate how unpleasant they are to look at, and you can make them look fine, but I will NEVER take off my potato's hood, because of what that face REPRESENTS.

'You're not the cool one. You're just a kid driving them around.'

 

You were never the Warframes to begin with.
Hell not even back in the Invite Only Beta did we think we were the Warframes themselves.
Originally we believed we were humans of some sort piloting the Warframes from inside them, hell take a look at any of the fan art over the years much of it is a Warframe removing it's helmet/head for there to be a human underneath.

 

But congratulations, you've put yourself on the same level as other people who hate for the sake of hating and refuse to see any opinion/data that doesn't reinforce your hate.

[DeltaPangaea]

7 minutes ago, Klavinmour said:

You were never the Warframes to begin with.
Hell not even back in the Invite Only Beta did we think we were the Warframes themselves.
Originally we believed we were humans of some sort piloting the Warframes from inside them, hell take a look at any of the fan art over the years much of it is a Warframe removing it's helmet/head for there to be a human underneath.

 

But congratulations, you've put yourself on the same level as other people who hate for the sake of hating and refuse to see any opinion/data that doesn't reinforce your hate.

Ahah, excuse me. 'Originally we believed' my rear end. We didn't know WHAT the warframes/tenno were. There were scads of different theories. And they got blown away in the dumbest way possible.

I'd love to not hate them, really, but I do. Because not only did they ruin the mystery of what the Tenno were, not only did they turn out to be boring-looking humans (With few customization options not locked behind platinum and now a hugeass grind), they weren't even IN the warframes.

They were never in danger. Attacked by Stalker? Well it's just some hardware. Caught by Zanuka? Just a fleshpuppet. Even now, when something bad happens to the poor little babies, they just poof away, safe and sound. There's not even any kind of delay before you can bring them out again. And their performance doesn't suffer, just the warframe's.

Basically, they lacked any sort of reason for me to care about them whatsoever. Nothing cool. Nothing endearing. Nothing.

DE can try all they want to make them cool, and I honestly wish them the BEST of luck in that endeavor. But I don't think it's going to help from my perspective. The damage is done.

You're not cool. You're a potato.

[Fallen_Echo]

10 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

You're so determined to hate this thing that you're completely missing the point. Operators aren't supposed to replace warframes. If they could, conceptually, we would never have needed warframes in the first place, they would never have been built, and this would be a very different game.

What operators actually offer, on a basic level, is the ability to nail down a playstyle no matter which role you take, and make up for the things your frame of choice can't do, if necessary. They can't do everything at once, but they can absolutely do a couple of things at a time on relevant scale (i.e. as good or better than warframes), that only some frames (if any) can do. Far from being redundant, at the very least, they cover for the weakness of any frame. "Why use Zenurik operator when you have Harrow" is the wrong question. You should not. You should use it when you don't have Harrow, or didn't bring him.

Okay i see we are both talking to walls because apparently our points are getting further away from each.

I do not want them to replace warframes i want them to be EQUAL.

Continously switching the focus tree to make them compensate for frame weaknesses is not equal useablity, thats at best is getting myself a controlable sentinel.

My final objective is to make the focus choice irrelevant since operators are always useful and not just playing as some weak supporting element.

10 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Okay, context:

• Base health after acquiring amp is 250. Max Vazarin Enduring Tides brings that to 625, so if that's your priority, hit that first (it's the cheap one anyway). If you want more, Magus Vigor grants 50 base health per rank, up to 200 (total 450), which is also multiplied by Enduring Tides for up to 1125 health with one stack. That's more EHP than my Banshee Prime with Primed Vigor, including shields.
  • If base health were 500, it would be 1250 with ET, and 1750 with ET+MV. That's a little absurd, considering that operators are also invulnerable in void mode, and can heal themselves in various ways.
• Based on people's testing, operator base armor is 25. With Unairu's Basilisk Scales, it's 75, which is 20% DR. Magus Husk: 125, plus Scales = 375 for 55.5% DR.
  • With 75 base armor, Unairu would bring it up to ~43% DR, and a stack of Magus Husk would make it 525 armor = 63.6% DR.

So you want to start with something near the focus-upgraded values, and then upgrade it from there, and you want shields? Even though it can already reach more than 2.5k EHP? What kind of monstrous tank do you want the kiddo to be? As for armor, well, that's just...an issue...as we all know enemy armor scaling is problematic anyway. It doesn't even make sense. Health scales, and given that armor is multiplicative damage reduction already, one has to ask why it should also scale. It's pretty bad, IMO. When we double-dip in multipliers, it's called a bug or an exploit. Why do enemies get away with it?

But again, operators aren't supposed to replace warframes. It sounds like the only way you'll use yours is if it becomes so powerful both offensively and defensively that it can actually replace your warframe. But then what's the point? The goal is to give us reasons to use both, and for my part, I feel like they've done that.

Well i honestly dont see any problem with this. Knowing our game and the monstrous scaling, our operators die like flys in the microwave when getting into actual high level enviroments. The original 55.5% total DR doesnt matter when your frame gets instakilled with 95% DR, 

If we apply these values our operators might be able to get us out of sticky situations even without energy to void dash and they would still not replace our frames as their skillset and weapon choices are extremely limited.

Also i never said that the base hp increase should get the same scaling as the current one, thought i dont think that 1750 hp is that much.

 

My tone might change a lot if we get the promised focus degrinding update as currently the costs drastically outweigth the gains.

[Galataya]

I want my phoenix gaze back... Please

Edited November 7, 2017 by Galataya

[Toran]

On ‎06‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 12:26 AM, Fleuria said:

I think the problem here is that both the operator and the frame are playing the same game. If we could somehow get the operator to be playing some *other* game, then we could get them working towards different goals that are not relevant here.

...

..

.

Mind you, I am not sure why I should want such a thing.

That's exactly what's happening and why the whole Operator affair feels so clumsy, especially since they're operator-exclusive...

Kuva:
Switch to Operator to catch a red cloud... great fun with a laggy host.

Kuva-Guard:
you switch to Operator to do some moves your warframe can do too, just to dish out an exclusive stun, then you switch back and kill the thing with your warframe... it's completely stupid. Imagine a tennis player changing to an evening gown while serving and back to sports outfit for the normal game... that's what it feels like, silly.

Eidolon: 
equally stupid gameplay: as Operator you aim and shoot (like a warframe) to slowly melt down Eidolon's annoying sponge-shield, then you switch back to Chroma to one-hit the part...

There's no unique gameplay behind the Operator that distinguishes sharply from your warframe's one. Besides the operator-exclusive stuff I only use the Operator to activate my passives and to ress/hack/capture in void mode (really useful) - same stuff I did in Focus 1.0... I don't think that won't change once I unlock active skills.

 

[BlackCoMerc]

So... Operators are good because we can grind for years to make them moderately durable on Earth missions?

No thanks.

They offer NOTHING a frame cannot do better, with far less grind.

[OfficialFrogvara]

3 hours ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Ahah, excuse me. 'Originally we believed' my rear end. We didn't know WHAT the warframes/tenno were. There were scads of different theories. And they got blown away in the dumbest way possible.

I'd love to not hate them, really, but I do. Because not only did they ruin the mystery of what the Tenno were, not only did they turn out to be boring-looking humans (With few customization options not locked behind platinum and now a hugeass grind), they weren't even IN the warframes.

They were never in danger. Attacked by Stalker? Well it's just some hardware. Caught by Zanuka? Just a fleshpuppet. Even now, when something bad happens to the poor little babies, they just poof away, safe and sound. There's not even any kind of delay before you can bring them out again. And their performance doesn't suffer, just the warframe's.

Basically, they lacked any sort of reason for me to care about them whatsoever. Nothing cool. Nothing endearing. Nothing.

DE can try all they want to make them cool, and I honestly wish them the BEST of luck in that endeavor. But I don't think it's going to help from my perspective. The damage is done.

You're not cool. You're a potato.

I respect your opinion, though I wonder how prevalent it is in the community. Personally, I find the Tenno cool. Yeah they're children, but I like the tragedy. Yeah they are weak by themselves, but the story now is about them getting stronger. I'm sorry they didn't quite click with you, but so far it seems they clicked with lots of others.

33 minutes ago, Toran said:

That's exactly what's happening and why the whole Operator affair feels so clumsy, especially since they're operator-exclusive...

...

Eidolon: 
equally stupid gameplay: as Operator you aim and shoot (like a warframe) to slowly melt down Eidolon's annoying sponge-shield, then you switch back to Chroma to one-hit the part...

There's no unique gameplay behind the Operator that distinguishes sharply from your warframe's one. Besides the operator-exclusive stuff I only use the Operator to activate my passives and to ress/hack/capture in void mode (really useful) - same stuff I did in Focus 1.0... I don't think that won't change once I unlock active skills.

I fail to see how exactly that makes Operators terrible. Or, to phrase it better, how does that make Operators worse than any other feature?

Would you rather have Operator-only missions forced on you, like we have with Archwing? Sure there are some cases where you're forced to use them, yet just a handful of them (actually exactly three, as you've proven). On the other hand, the optional uses, as has also been proven by this thread, are in far bigger numbers (that is, at least four).

Overall, do people have better issues to point out than Operators being yet another sub-par mechanic in a game full of sub-par mechanics?

[Toran]

3 minutes ago, OfficialFrogvara said:

I respect your opinion, though I wonder how prevalent it is in the community. Personally, I find the Tenno cool. Yeah they're children, but I like the tragedy. Yeah they are weak by themselves, but the story now is about them getting stronger. I'm sorry they didn't quite click with you, but so far it seems they clicked with lots of others.

I fail to see how exactly that makes Operators terrible. Or, to phrase it better, how does that make Operators worse than any other feature?

Would you rather have Operator-only missions forced on you, like we have with Archwing? Sure there are some cases where you're forced to use them, yet just a handful of them (actually exactly three, as you've proven). On the other hand, the optional uses, as has also been proven by this thread, are in far bigger numbers (that is, at least four).

Overall, do people have better issues to point out than Operators being yet another sub-par mechanic in a game full of sub-par mechanics?

Actually, I'd prefer the Archwing approach - get the affinity and let the stuff rot in oblivion. At the moment it's just three activities but it looks like DE's really into the Operator and we might see more non-optional stuff like this in the future, a thing I don't welcome at all. Well, at least there's a new if unreliable source for Kuva...

[Fyrscha]

I have no issue with Operator Mode itself, and I like having more pieces to the lore puzzle of the Warframe universe. The two main quests that have to do with the Operator are some of the most fun I've ever had in Warframe. All that said, I sorta agree with OP about Operator usage being rather lack-luster in standard gameplay, and I have a mountain of issues with PoE though that's another topic. 

What I don't hate is the Operator existing, nor the devs "wasting time on Operator content". Operator Mode flows into regular gameplay, and you can either use it or not. It's not something mandatory (outside of new PoE stuff, which again I hate and have lots of issue with, but my ideas on such are in other threads). I enjoy using focus abilities to enhance regular play, and I think doing the kuva grind is fun. I hate rivens and don't really use them, but I actually enjoy the kuva fortress missions and the kuva siphon/flood missions. Some days I'll do 10+ kuva siphon missions just for fun. 

An important thing to keep in mind about Warframe is that it is what it is, and some of the devs (I wont mention names....) are set in their ways and don't like to move away from their vision of game design and story elements, so we get what we get from Warframe. We can complain till we're blue in the face, but those complaints rarely ever result in things being changed, and when they do the changes are often lackluster and fall flat. 

Warframe is free to play, offers a tremendous amount of game play, quests, pvp, and a mostly smooth bug-free top quality gaming experience for zero real dollars, so I learned to take the good with the bad in Warframe, and I don't lose sleep over content that I dont like because it doesn't remove all the content I love. 

Final note, I -do- hate the new focus grind (but not the new focus system/abilities) and I -do- hate how punishing all the PoE grinds are, but I have talked about them till I'm blue in the face on other threads, and feel no need to repeat myself here. 

Edited November 7, 2017 by Fyrscha

[DeltaPangaea]

6 hours ago, OfficialFrogvara said:

I respect your opinion, though I wonder how prevalent it is in the community. Personally, I find the Tenno cool. Yeah they're children, but I like the tragedy. Yeah they are weak by themselves, but the story now is about them getting stronger. I'm sorry they didn't quite click with you, but so far it seems they clicked with lots of others.

It's just a shift of what the game says I'm supposed to care about. Going fast, fighting dudes, jumping all over the place, cool unique powers... and the faceless, mysterious, who-knows-whats doing these things. Also a removal of any kind of tension when something bad happens to them. Because it's not a character in danger anymore, it's a piece of hardware.

I LOVE nonhuman characters, and Second Dream just went and replaced them with boring human children. Not even attractive ladies, or big muscular dudes (possibly with handsome beards), or even a generic short-brown-hair-action-game-guy. Children.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

If the Tenno just stayed where they were - in the chair, running the warframe, a bit of background graphics - I'd be fine with that. Or even as the ghostly Fifth Power that they were. 

But with them now actually able to manifest, the transition in gameplay is too jarring. When I want to experience what it's like to be weak and slow and only needed for certain tasks, I just go to work.

Edited November 7, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[Fleuria]

10 hours ago, Toran said:

Switch to Operator to catch a red cloud... great fun with a laggy host.

The lag issue is, unfortunately, real.

While a lot of the animations and control is fluid in laggy games - other things lag, but you yourself still have controls which feel like they normally would - operator abilities do not activate until after a round trip, which means they lag.

I do not like that, either.

But I do not feel that this is inherent in the operator (because, for one thing, when the game is not lagging the controls work properly). Instead, I feel it is a bug that they have not yet fixed.

[Fleuria]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

But with them now actually able to manifest, the transition in gameplay is too jarring. When I want to experience what it's like to be weak and slow and only needed for certain tasks, I just go to work.

But the warframes were also originally weak and slow also. A level zero mag with a mk1-braton, a level zero lato and level zero mk1-bo is roughly comparable to an unagumented operator.

[DeltaPangaea]

16 minutes ago, Fleuria said:

But the warframes were also originally weak and slow also. A level zero mag with a mk1-braton, a level zero lato and level zero mk1-bo is roughly comparable to an unagumented operator.

They can still wallrun, doublejump, bullet jump, glide, have shields, melee attack, and have their level 1 power. And they get better through using them, not through a serious of incredibly arduous grinds for focus and fish livers.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

19 minutes ago, Fleuria said:

But the warframes were also originally weak and slow also. A level zero mag with a mk1-braton, a level zero lato and level zero mk1-bo is roughly comparable to an unagumented operator.

Really. That's what you're going to go with.

[Fleuria]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

Really. That's what you're going to go with.

Like that was my only post in this thread? 

But, ok, I give up. Because fish.

[Kurokoz]

I enjoy playing as my Operator.

[OfficialFrogvara]

10 hours ago, Toran said:

Actually, I'd prefer the Archwing approach - get the affinity and let the stuff rot in oblivion. At the moment it's just three activities but it looks like DE's really into the Operator and we might see more non-optional stuff like this in the future, a thing I don't welcome at all. Well, at least there's a new if unreliable source for Kuva...

Alright, fair enough.

 

3 hours ago, DeltaPangaea said:

It's just a shift of what the game says I'm supposed to care about. Going fast, fighting dudes, jumping all over the place, cool unique powers... and the faceless, mysterious, who-knows-whats doing these things. Also a removal of any kind of tension when something bad happens to them. Because it's not a character in danger anymore, it's a piece of hardware.

I LOVE nonhuman characters, and Second Dream just went and replaced them with boring human children. Not even attractive ladies, or big muscular dudes (possibly with handsome beards), or even a generic short-brown-hair-action-game-guy. Children.

Honestly, I don't think any of those choices would've been as good as the children. Though the beards did sell me, now I hope our Tenno can have beards one day.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind if DE hadn't revealed what we are, but they decided to progress the lore, and all we can do is sit and watch. So I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

Although, as much as I like the Operators, it's concerning to see how many people feel the opposite way. I hope they won't drive the player base away like this, especially seeing that they are something that keeps me interested in the game.

Also, an additional thought, I've always been quite convinced the Operators will be involved in Sacrifice and Umbra frames, I wonder if that would cause any backlash.

[DeltaPangaea]

27 minutes ago, OfficialFrogvara said:

Also, an additional thought, I've always been quite convinced the Operators will be involved in Sacrifice and Umbra frames, I wonder if that would cause any backlash.

They probably will be.

All the story stuff seems to involve the taters nowadays. It would be nice to get something that's actually about the warframes, y'know? It's kinda sad that they're the namesake of the game and they're just shoved to the side.