[PVP] Balancing some weapons (Snipers and Bows) aka playing with the knobs :D

[Triplinster]

CONCLAVE THREAD CONCLAVE THREAD CONCLAVE THREAD

Was that good enough? New to the forums here.


I want to talk about state of some weapons in PVP and give my opinions on the past changes and current state of some weapons in game.

1. LANKA

Lanka is like the most forgotten weapon in game right now. Before U21 sniper nerf, Lanka was the worst sniper in game damage and dps wise and needed a buff.
It had around 132 electric base damage if I remember correctly, which was then nerfed down to 120.8 electric damage.

So after U21 nerf on Lanka, It went from 132 electric damage to 120.8. Which is -11 base damage. Ok, fine, but what about the weapon as a whole? did it really deserve the change?

Now lets compare Lanka after U21 to Daikyu. Remember that Lanka never used Lie in Wait mod, nor does it have or ever had a scope damage multiplier.

Base Damage 
Lanka: 120.8
Daikyu (After u21 nerf): 169 (236 with SLB)

Flight speed
Lanka: 200
Daikyu: 180

Charge rate
Lanka: 1.5
Daikyu: 1.75

What I'm trying to show here is, Lanka is so much closer to Daikyu. But despite being much closer to it, it lacks the most against both Snipers and Bows.

Additional Note: Lanka is completely inaccurate un scoped meanwhile Daikyu is accurate enough to be viable without aiming down sight. and the uncharged damage is so low for Lanka that it's better to just forget about it.

Now lets get to U22. Ok, 1 second charge rate from 1.5, but did it really need that as a change? It's already too hard to land shots with it. The charge rate change doesn't help Lanka at all.

It's better to revert charge rate on Lanka (Or keep it) and increase it's damage per shot to be better than all snipers, and on par with some bows.

I believe the sweet spot would be from 140 to 155 for Lanka. Although mechanically it should be much more compared to Daikyu. At least 140-155 damage would do Lanka some justice



2. DAIKYU

Daikyu is a weapon with only one purpose. To take down most targets in one shot. I think this was the reason why Daikyu's damage was reverted from 169 to 185 between U21 and U22.

It's all cool. But there's one problem. It's too over rewarding.

What I mean by that is, this weapon is too easy to use for direct shots (Majority of players use it for direct shots).

The charge hold time of Daikyu gives player all the time in the world after reaching max charge to find it's next victim and release the shot. It's too forgiving.

I believe a weapon with a unique purpose like Daikyu, should stand out in difficulty. The charge hold time should be decreased. By a lot. Think Opticor but a bit more forgiving with charge time, but much less forgiving than it's current value. Also the charge rate could use a little tweak. From 1.75 to 1.875 - 2 seconds.



Ok that was about charge hold time and Daikyu being forgiving and all for DIRECT shots. Now let's talk about a major problem with all bows.


2.5 INDIRECT SHOTS, FLIGHT SPEED AND BOWS


With U21 came big changes to weapons like Snipers and Bows. And with it came damage and flight speed nerfs for all bows.

The worst thing that could happen to bows happened. Flight speed nerfs. With cherry on top major damage nerfs. Players with bows were already a minority before this. Now it makes no sense to use bows over anything else.

Bow changes after U21


Before nerf, flight speeds for bows (Except Paris Prime and Daikyu) were already low. Some bow players even used -damage +flight speed mods to compensate for it.

The most popular bow after Daikyu, Paris. Already had too much damage while still staying in the 2 shot range. It was possible to bump to the flight speed of it while still keeping it in the 2 shot range. Which was a good bandaid solution, but it should have been balanced from the start.

The flight speed changes greatly impact overtracking/leading or indirect shots. Which already take a lot of skill to perform. It makes no sense to nerf flight speed if it all stays below 200m/s, since it mainly impacts indirect shots much more than direct shots.

In my opinion, first the flight speeds of bows should be brought up to 180-200m/s range for all bows, then the damage should be balanced.

Make it use-able for players first, then decide what the purpose of the bow is. They all don't have to absolute 2 shots. But the damage should justify the skill required.

Little note on damage: The damage for bows atm, not looking at flight speed. Is still too low. The bow class has massive difference in damage. Example= Dread vs Paris Prime.




3. SNIPERS


This is a really complex topic to talk about. I am not going to talk much about the direct changes, instead I would like to give my opinion on them and start a discussion. I want to know the opinion of experienced players on this topic. I will leave my opinions about this.

Snipers have lost the purpose of being a Sniper. I think most of the mess comes from changes unintentionally carrying over to PVP.

Like removal of scope damage bonus, Fire rate increase, head shot buffs and then hammered nerfs on the same headshot multiplier. Effective headshot multiplier is much lower compared to pre u22 state snipers, without taking in account the removal of scope damage buff, which means more net damage nerf on headshots.

Now the high mag snipers are high fire rate DPS monsters with same 3 shot kill range. While low mag snipers are much worse because of the damage nerfs.

Snipetron is still inferior to Snipetron vandal in reload speed, mag size, and punch through (although pt difference doesn't matter too much).


I think, with snipers we need to go back. Back to high recoil, back to lower fire rate, back to reason-able amounts of damage and skill justifying headshot damage. Back to being real snipers.




Those were my thoughts on the topic. I'm curious to see what the experienced players think about this.

[(PSN)joshw1400]

I have to disagree about the Daikyu. It takes way to long to charge, and making it so it has a shorter charge hold time would be a pain. It just makes it less rewarding to hit people. Not to mention how difficult it is to hit people with it since people bounce in all sorts of directions.

[Perhelion]

Making Daikyu harder to use makes sens from your point of view as you are skilled with it. Now, how many people can use it effectively (win match before time)? No that many at all. Because of this I dont see any reason to make it more difficult to get kills with it, it stands out in difficulty enough. You need to think about tons of players who cant master it atm, after making it even harder to master who will use it? Than only those who already mastered it will benefit as this weapon will be only for few. 

[Scarecrow]

1 hour ago, Triplinster said:

Snipers have lost the purpose of being a Sniper. I think most of the mess comes from changes unintentionally carrying over to PVP. Like removal of scope damage bonus, Fire rate increase, head shot buffs and then hammered nerfs on the same headshot multiplier. Effective headshot multiplier is much lower compared to pre u22 state snipers, without taking in account the removal of scope damage buff, which means more net damage nerf on headshots.

The easiest way to revert all the negative changes to snipers would go back to pre-U21 damage/fire rate.

[Scarecrow]

39 minutes ago, Perhelion said:

I dont see any reason to make it more difficult to get kills with it, it stands out in difficulty enough. You need to think about tons of players who cant master it atm, after making it even harder to master who will use it?

Daikyu's current charge speed sits at 1.75, while it's damage remains SIGNIFICANTLY higher than every other bow, due to changes carried with U21. If Daikyu's charge time was increased even further, it would close the gap between the DPS of Daikyu and the rest of the weapon class. The amount of time you can keep the weapon charged should increase back to it's old state, if such changes were made.

[.Zel]

2 hours ago, Perhelion said:

-quote-

While that is true, the Daikyu is still a bit too easy to shotgun people with currently. 1 hit kill if headshot but if bodyshot then the player is left with really low hp, enough for 1 lex p shot to guarantee a kill. The Old Daikyu imo was perfect how it was with the charge time/hold time/flight speed, no change was required for it, the -8% dmg nerf was understandable but even with that it deals pretty solid damage.

[SevenLetterKWord]

15 hours ago, Triplinster said:

Was that good enough? New to the forums here.

It is the responsibility of the poster, not the OP, to be aware of his location in the forums.
Let's not establish a precedent for hand-holding the careless.

15 hours ago, Triplinster said:

Now lets get to U22. Ok, 1 second charge rate from 1.5, but did it really need that as a change? It's already too hard to land shots with it. The charge rate change doesn't help Lanka at all.

This was a buff. When DE says "charge rate", they actually mean "charge time".

(Also, Thunderlanka when?)

15 hours ago, Triplinster said:

The charge hold time of Daikyu gives player all the time in the world after reaching max charge to find it's next victim and release the shot. It's too forgiving.

I'd prefer changing Sprint-Loaded Broadhead to apply its buff incrementally instead of all at once (the description says "up to +40%") and halving the Daikyu's ammo reserve to bring it in line with that of other OHK-capable weapons.

15 hours ago, Triplinster said:

I think, with snipers we need to go back. Back to high recoil, back to lower fire rate, back to reason-able amounts of damage and skill justifying headshot damage. Back to being real snipers.

Snipers should be difficult to use and appropriately rewarding. Reducing recoil and reducing damage accomplished the opposite of this.

16 hours ago, Perhelion said:

Making Daikyu harder to use makes sens from your point of view as you are skilled with it. You need to think about tons of players who cant master it atm, after making it even harder to master who will use it?

Actually, the Daikyu is very easy to use.
It's one of the few weapons that overrewards low-skill play, because it has an incredibly low requirement for consistency.

Daikyu users never need to land two hits in a row. When was the last time you saw anyone go for consecutive Daikyu shots?
Either you've killed your opponent in one shot, or they're so damaged you easily use an alternative source of damage (automatic spray or soft-lock ability).

Combine this with the Daikyu's spammable ammo reserve and silent firing, and you've got the perfect weapon for noncommittal gameplay.
(Not to mention it has the highest flight speed of any bow and no projectile drop-off.)

16 hours ago, Perhelion said:

Than only those who already mastered it will benefit as this weapon will be only for few. 

Good.
An OHK-capable weapon should not be easy to use.
The Daikyu should demand skill to be viable.

[Perhelion]

On 11/9/2017 at 7:09 AM, SevenLetterKWord said:

Actually, the Daikyu is very easy to use.
It's one of the few weapons that overrewards low-skill play, because it has an incredibly low requirement for consistency.

Daikyu users never need to land two hits in a row. When was the last time you saw anyone go for consecutive Daikyu shots?
Either you've killed your opponent in one shot, or they're so damaged you easily use an alternative source of damage (automatic spray or soft-lock ability).

Combine this with the Daikyu's spammable ammo reserve and silent firing, and you've got the perfect weapon for noncommittal gameplay.
(Not to mention it has the highest flight speed of any bow and no projectile drop-off.)

Good.
An OHK-capable weapon should not be easy to use.
The Daikyu should demand skill to be viable.

After few matches with Daikyu i can see that it is incredibly strong but still on other hand I don't see much people using it and I don't see people wining matches with it almost at all. If it would be perfect for low-skill play weapon than probably many people would use it with great results. I think that what you saying here "Actually, the Daikyu is very easy to use" is more a subjective opinion than objective statement that would a valuable argument. 

[SevenLetterKWord]

11 hours ago, Perhelion said:

After few matches with Daikyu i can see that it is incredibly strong but still on other hand I don't see much people using it and I don't see people wining matches with it almost at all. If it would be perfect for low-skill play weapon than probably many people would use it with great results.

Whether or not a weapon is frequently used has no bearing on whether or not it's balanced.

As we all know, the Conclave arsenal is (regrettably) dependent on the PvE arsenal.
The Skana is very commonly used. Does that mean it's OP? No, it's just a starter weapon so many players have it.
The early Euphona Prime was not very commonly used. Does that mean it was underpowered? No, in fact it was busted, but it also required MR14.
The Daikyu might not be overused in Conclave (it's mastery fodder in PvE), but you'd be foolish to think that means it's well-balanced.

Secondly, whether or not a particular weapon can carry its user to match victory is not the only metric for evaluating that weapon's power.

The Daikyu is easy to use because it overrewards low-risk, fringe engagement strategies with low-commitment kills that don't require consistency.

11 hours ago, Perhelion said:

I think that what you saying here "Actually, the Daikyu is very easy to use" is more a subjective opinion than objective statement that would a valuable argument. 

Is this a joke?
I supported my assertion with several reasoned points; you have failed to rebut a single one.

"Well that's just, like, your opinion, man" is possibly the weakest counterargument you could've presented, especially when I've already provided substantial evidence.

[Perhelion]

all right, chill down, you just haven't convinced me at all with your arguments. Let's just agree to disagree as this conversation is starting to be a bit too heavy like for my taste. 

[Rubbertubtub01]

I reckon all of the snipers should 1 shot headshot every frame. No headshot multiplier, just an instant kill. It's so silly that frames can can take a bullet to the face and survive. It's so unsatisfying to see a nice yellow number, knowing you just landed a nice headshot, only to realise they didn't even die and someone else just stole your kill.

[ThatGuyFromSteam]

If you're looking to balance conclave don't look at the daikyu ples. Bows are what the daikyu should be but not As slow. Atleast in pve. Logically PvP shouldnt stray far from the truth because pvp isnt meant to be its own thing in warframe. And tbh, conclave should be faster paced. Everything should be killing relatively quick. If you want to boast about skill you have to be able to compete with the skilled. That's not just exclusive to fighting games it's games in general. What do you think ranks are for? So that it's not just the same people killing everyone else. In warframe it's easy to be good and not far from the best. Unless of course you often get less than 20 fps liek me. If you want everything to kill slowly and take more than one shot then think of this, if you're busy killing one guy in either of the game modes, you yourself make o5 likely that you could be picked off by multiple people at the same time. You make it quick and everything escalates quicker and it's not at all about who's killing who. It would then be about who is dominating the playing field and they'd be the ones standing out. But let's say it stayed the same. Well then it would be about who has more experience in PvP and who is used to it. Because being in those PvP situations where everyone at any point could turn on you and kill only you and continue to kill each other afterwards is something that takes more than just base skill at warframe, it takes PvP experience. It might still be present the other way around but atleast its not exactly that. My thoughts, just make a universal mode where you can use whatever weapons you want not worrying about mods and be able to use that to gain actual PvP mods for serious competitive play, which could be the introduction of ranked. There'd be an incentive to play it and plus you could probably give more rewards for the cephalon side of things or whatever. Except theres a problem with that too, and that's internet in it. 

[NNKanell]

18 часов назад, ThatGuyFromSteam сказал:

If you're looking to balance conclave don't look at the daikyu ples. Bows are what the daikyu should be but not As slow. Atleast in pve. Logically PvP shouldnt stray far from the truth because pvp isnt meant to be its own thing in warframe. And tbh, conclave should be faster paced. Everything should be killing relatively quick.

Dying, after coming out from behind the wall?
thanks for this already have COD and CS.