Ash Bladestorm Energy Costs

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Nazrethim:

 

You seem to miss my point: Ash works with whatever build you use, really. Blade Storm flat out doesn't work outside of max effi+rage&PFury+AtkSpdRiven.

And my point is that effi+rage are less a requirement then powermanagment, that's a thing for every single frame out there.

Those options aint a bad power management tool for a wide varriety of frames, if they're a option at all that is. Everything else, including ashs attack speed+combo requirement is maximation.

Like frosts avalance is even useable on its 15m range for 100 energy/cast, mesas peacemaker even considered damage without strength and a full secondary weapon build that's specified to support peacemaker, not to mention its default drain...

Compare it to any other frame. The cost/target on its base efficiency is overall the same, with the differerence that it's pretty much independent of range, strength or duration, stats that are important for every other frame but not for ash.

Having 3 slots reserved on your melee weapon that make both, your melee weapon and Bladestorm profit to maximise a ability is not a problem.

I dare to say that it's quite the opposite of a problem...

Edited November 14, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Leqesai]

I never thought the energy cost of the reworked blamestorm to be problematic. 

 

I do, however, find the stupid cutscene horribly annoying. Will not use ash because they still haven't removed the cutscene "immersive" gameplay.

[Nazrethim]

37 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I never thought the energy cost of the reworked blamestorm to be problematic. 

If you run on max efficiency it isn't a problem, as it costs the same as pre-revisit BS did by default. If you don't run with max efficiency then you have an energy sink that isn't really worth it.

37 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I do, however, find the stupid cutscene horribly annoying. Will not use ash because they still haven't removed the cutscene "immersive" gameplay.

What if current BS is merged with Teleport as a dual tap/hold ability? Keeps the cutscene for those who like it but makes it entirely optional. Then give Ash a proper 4.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Nazrethim:

If you run on max efficiency it isn't a problem, as it costs the same as pre-revisit BS did by default.

Old BS was limited in range just as much as current ultimates are. That you could mark from afar didn't do anything for it eather as it won you like 5m at most while binding its effective range to enemy placement.

Same concept. 7-10 hits on like 5-6 enemys equaled BS's current cost, and keep in mind that it's damage was a fragment of what it is today due to different build ideals and combo mods that came much later (what's the reason "Rising storm" was made), what equals its current cost/damage in a way (and made it much more expensive in lower levels where you couldn't get the full hit count)

I still remember how his BS build basicly was stuffing as much efficiency, range and strength into him as possible, how sentinel-orbs were his only effective power mangement on those builds and how you spent 24/7 beein stuck in animations for a fragment of the damage you do now, how arcane trickery was his only recommendet invisibility option, how every option, how every tool, every build people complain about his current state were the frickin meta back then.

But yeah, now its bad. Now that you can hit a enemy for damage that would've took 2-6 hits otherwise, now that you have build diversity that doesn't affect how BS behaves, now that you can't and don't have to watch the animation at all times...fully agree, it was so much better before.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Old BS was limited in range just as much as current ultimates are. That you could mark from afar didn't do anything for it eather as it won you like 5m at most while binding its effective range to enemy placement.

Or in other words: Range mods actually had an effect on it.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Same concept. 7-10 hits on like 5-6 enemys equaled BS's current cost,

The ability was not meant to be used on small pockets of enemies.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

and keep in mind that it's damage was a fragment of what it is today due to different build ideals and combo mods that came much later

So to make a fair comparison you have to submit them to the same modding standards, hence why I use default values and not your metabuilds.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

(what's the reason "Rising storm" was made),

Rising Storm was at the time the only mod that boosted combo counter (by a whooping 3s, not much but yeah). It became viable once it was discovered it affected Body Count (and later Drifting Contact) but the revisit removed this interaction which means the mod is useless now.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

what equals its current cost/damage in a way

Again, compare them at default values. Or apply the same modifiers to both.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

(and made it much more expensive in lower levels where you couldn't get the full hit count)

More in the lines of "became more expensive and largely pointless at lower levels due to requiring a lot of stuff stacked to be decent"

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

I still remember how his BS build basicly was stuffing as much efficiency, range and strength into him as possible,

That was one path, but you could also build for reduced range for more control over what you bladestorm, or play with default stats and invest in ehp and utility. Or try oddball builds and the ability still worked. Now it works with exactly one build.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

how sentinel-orbs were his only effective power mangement on those builds

Quite the contrary, BS still allowed other sources of energy to apply to Ash during BS. Max Efficiency, being broken as it is, allowed to restore meBS cost with just 1 orb.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

and how you spent 24/7 beein stuck in animations for a fragment of the damage you do now,

Only if you were stupid with the tool. Blade Storming while Eximi or Disruptors were alive was a risk. And BS did only 200 damage less than it does now against everything else.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

how arcane trickery was his only recommendet invisibility option

It was just that Trickery activated from it. And it wasn't mandatory nor affected the ability stats in any way.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

, how every option, how every tool, every build people complain about his current state were the frickin meta back then.

Meta yes, but not flat out mandatory as current BS demands to counter it's ridiculous cost and slow execution.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

But yeah, now its bad.

Old BS was bad too, but current one is the worst version of Blade Storm in the history of warframe

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Now that you can hit a enemy for damage that would've took 2-6 hits otherwise

11% damage buff. Wow! Incredible!

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

, now that you have build diversity that doesn't affect how BS behaves,

Build diversity is kept as long as you don't seriously think about using that waste of time and energy.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

now that you can't and don't have to watch the animation at all times.

You have to watch the animation for every individual enemy instead of seeing 1/3rd or 1/4th (assuming you weren't stupid or reckless enough to BS a disruptor/eximus knowing full well what it does)

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

..fully agree, it was so much better before.

Indeed it was.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Sure man, whatever you say. Oh and

vor einer Stunde schrieb Nazrethim:

 

11% damage buff. Wow! Incredible!

 

Up to 6 times with any combo mod+current naramon, plus 11%, plus about 60% more strength vs max range with the same mods on the same range.

Edited November 15, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

53 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Sure man, whatever you say. Oh and

Up to 6 times with any combo mod+current naramon, plus 11%, plus about 60% more strength vs max range with the same mods on the same range.

I think you got confused. BS was buffed in damage from 1800 (old) to 2000 (current). That's roughly 11% buff. And you are forgeting to add current naramon to old bs to make fair comparison. Or run standard.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 57 Minuten schrieb Nazrethim:

I think you got confused. BS was buffed in damage from 1800 (old) to 2000 (current). That's roughly 11% buff. And you are forgeting to add current naramon to old bs to make fair comparison. Or run standard.

Wasn't there. I'm even pretty sure consoles never had access to the state where ash could use old BS with combo mods, and if then only for about half a patch rhytm, what's roughly a month or so... or all those fancy ways to add speed to it, from primed fury to melee rivens. It most likely would've been nerfed if it did, what you consider his current state to be anyways. May have played a major role? Since we all know DE's stance about overpowered nukes.

 

Current BS has all that stuff tho and is allowed to use it since it is no nuke so no thanks, not gonna take it into consideration but rather compare them on a realistic base.

Edited November 15, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

39 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Wasn't there. I'm even pretty sure consoles never had access to the state where ash could use old BS with combo mods,

Now that you mention it, yeah, that's probably why you didn't notice that.

PC date:

Body Count release: Operation Shadow Debt 18.4.1 - January 26

Drifting Contact release: Recurring Nightmares - October 27 2016

Ash Revisited: U19.1.0  -  November 25 2016.

There was a 10 month window for Body Count and 1 month window for Drifting Contact, in which they were affected by Rising Storm.

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and if then only for about half a patch rhytm, what's roughly a month or so... or all those fancy ways to add speed to it, from primed fury to melee rivens. It most likely would've been nerfed if it did, what you consider his current state to be anyways. May have played a major role?

Attack Speed is capped anyway so PFury wouldn't have been much of an issue, specially since players could already increase their speed to PFury levels. Rivens are no accountable for balance due to their nature. And while I do agree that 50s combo counter was indeed overpowered (and that was with default duration, get 200% duration and you would never run out of combo) and the nerf with Ash revisited to that interaction was actually a good move, the fact the augment remained the same (as percentile increase to the base counter) instead of being changed to, say, 3/5/8/10s flat combo counter increase or increase the rate at which the combo counter rises during BS (like Venka Prime does) is crystal clear the whole thing was a straight nerf with a shiny skin to distract the fools, and worked for a while until players started giving BS a closer look and realised the bs.

Also. Regarding Rivens,

While Rivens were added with the War Within update, only Rifle rivens were available. Melee Rivens weren't released until Update 21 Chains of Harrow on June 29 2017, seven months after Ash nerf. Even if it was obvious DE would release melee rivens eventually it wasn't certain if abilities would be affected by them.

That's like saying they increased BS marking range to 50m because of Plains of Eidolon, which is so farfetched as to be stupid considering now other rework or revisit since then actually had that. Speaking of other revisits: they were upgrades to frames or changes in playstyle when needed. Ash got a meganerf to his 4 as to be nigh useless without (pretty expensive or timegated) mods/arcanes and got a single positive QoL change. That's what we seek to rectify and you oppose for what I honestly consider a banal and idiotic reason: because with YOUR build it works just fine. And your claim that Ash was only built for range-str-effi proves you were just another spammer who didn't realise the genius of the previous iteration of the ability and how well designed it was. Did it need changes? sure, but a straight nerf wasn't a good move.

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Current BS has all that stuff tho and is allowed to use it so no thanks, not gonna take it into consideration.

You prove my point. Check and mate

Edited November 15, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb Nazrethim:

 

You prove my point. Check and mate

Ye and no, fact is: it's allowed to use all that fancy stuff because it is what it is and that it wouldn't be if it were what it was.

And it can deal about 8x as much damage, on easyer builds (compared to old BS builds aka max efficiency, max range, max str, what's about 6-7 Frame slots for using BS about as effective ) on the pretty much same actuall efficiency (taking base range AND experience with max range into consideration where you got stuck on eximus units regardless of the max range, thus could utilice hits on like 10 enemys at your absolute best)

You can't spam it as you used to. That's it tho. It even got a tad stronger compared to befoee while allowing builds and stuff.

Edited November 15, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Ye and no, fact is: it's allowed to use all that fancy stuff because it is what it is and that it wouldn't be if it were what it was.

Very well. You still fail to make a base comparison (which is the one that matters most)

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And it can deal about 8x as much damage,

Don't know where do you get that imaginary x8 damage. Saying that implies it got a massive damage buff while keeping the same relative cost, which isn't true as it gained just 11% damage and cost increased by 200% at minimum.

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on easyer builds (compared to old BS builds aka max efficiency, max range, max str, what's about 6-7 Frame slots for using BS about as effective )

BS didn't require all that cr*p to be good actually. It worked with several different builds.

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on the pretty much same actuall efficiency

Actually, you need all the stuff (arcanes, rivens, efficiency maxed) just to make current BS equally effective as Old BS was by default

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(taking base range AND experience with max range into consideration where you got stuck on eximus units regardless of the max range, thus could utilice hits on like 10 enemys at your absolute best)

Did you consider NOT spamming it and forgo max range to control what you BSed? Obviously not.

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You can't spam it as you used to. That's it tho.

Isn't really about spam. I in fact was opposed to spam. My stance is that the better path was to nerf what allowed the spam in the first place as the ability was really well designed, OR to replace it with something just as powerful and effective that didn't allowed for spam. What we got is clearly inferior and very lazy.

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It even got a tad stronger compared to befoee while allowing builds and stuff.

11% more damage in exchange for 200% cost, making it nigh useless outside of the very same builds that allowed spam. All other builds that focused on not spamming got scr*wed and no longer can make use of the ability. That's a straight nerf right there.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Nazrethim:

Very well. You still fail to make a base comparison (which is the one that matters most)

Don't know where do you get that imaginary x8 damage. Saying that implies it got a massive damage buff while keeping the same relative cost, which isn't true as it gained just 11% damage and cost increased by 200% at minimum.

 

It gained the permanent privilege to make use of combo multipliers, which would've been nerfed eather completely or restricted to it's augument on the long run.

 Or do you really believe that there's a single chance in hell for a nuke ability that could be moddet to be 3 times as fast (3x3 with clones, 9x as fast... that's allmost instantly), and to gain a 6x multiplier to be in the game?

After all those years? After all those reworks? After they started this massive assault on P4tw abilitys? How many frames were nerfed for less then this?

So it's definitly more then 11% since it is able to use combo and to have 60% more strength flat with the same strength mods since you don't need stretch+overextendet to get the same reach (which results in a 60% strength penalty on max rank). It's actually more since 160%x6 is closer to  9,5 times the damage.

What you fail to understand is that old BS had a completely different design and thus completely different rules applied to it. A unique ability with buildup (see also chroma and saryn on paper for more reference) CAN have insane multipliers, a varriation of a nuke can not. That's what i mean when i say it works. It works by design as this design allows the multipliers and strong mods like rivens.

Edited November 15, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

It gained the permanent privilege to make use of combo multipliers, which would've been nerfed eather completely or restricted to it's augument on the long run.

 Or do you really believe that there's a single chance in hell for a nuke ability that could be moddet to be 3 times as fast (3x3 with clones, 9x as fast... that's allmost instantly), and to gain a 6x multiplier to be in the game?

You mean like it could do pre-revisit anyway but wasn't specified anyway and was considered a "feature" ?

4 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

 

After all those years? After all those reworks? After they started this massive assault on P4tw abilitys? How many frames were nerfed for less then this?

May I remind you that it's been a pingpong ball with that? And what about a viable and better not-p4tw alternative like the many that were suggested well before they revealed the sh*tty marking mode?

4 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

So it's definitly more then 11% since it is able to use combo and to have 60% more strength flat with the same strength mods since you don't need stretch+overextendet to get the same reach (which results in a 60% strength penalty on max rank). It's actually more since 160%x6 is closer to  9,5 times the damage.

Giving it 50m marking range made Range stat worthless and removed the control element default  and reduced range granted. Making one stat a dumpstat while making another, broken, stat mandatory sounds like a good move to you? And again, BS didn't need Range to begin with, it was a double edge sword for the ability, and Corrupted mods are 'power at a price'. The reason Fleeting Expertise is broken is that 60% duration is nowhere as powerful as 60% efficiency, because one scales exponentially while the other scales linearly.

4 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

What you fail to understand is that old BS had a completely different design and thus completely different rules applied to it.

And was superior in design to current in every aspect

4 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

A unique ability with buildup (see also chroma and saryn on paper for more reference) CAN have insane multipliers, a varriation of a nuke can not. That's what i mean when i say it works. It works by design as this design allows the multipliers and strong mods like rivens.

And you still to fail to understand that 'Unique =/= Good' and that 'something works doesn't mean it's well made'. BS in it's current form is a complete failure and needs to be adressed sooner or later.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Nazrethim:

You mean like it could do pre-revisit anyway but wasn't specified anyway and was considered a "feature" ?

 

Ideed, with a rework on the way. Would there have not been a rework then there would have been nerfs. For something to keep insane multpliers trough beein unique instead of recieving nerfs IS good.

Look at all the speed, all the combo stuff that was addet to the game and tell me honestly that you believe that it wouldn't have been nerfed.

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Ideed, with a rework on the way. Would there have not been a rework then there would have been nerfs. For something to keep insane multpliers trough beein unique instead of recieving nerfs IS good.

Look at all the speed, all the combo stuff that was addet to the game and tell me honestly that you believe that it wouldn't have been nerfed.

It would have had those interactions nerfed, no doubt, but the ability would have remained good on it's own instead of requiring all that cr*p stacked. And do you really think DE rework stuff with that forethought? They don't, they pile stuff over stuff. It's less "The Plan" and more "Katamari on the Tenno". If they planned ahead and really could forsee what they are doing, we wouldn't be arguing here and instead of a massive nerf we will be using a properly reworked ninja.

I still have the upper hand here.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Nazrethim

[BlackCoMerc]

On 11/10/2017 at 2:44 PM, Manodemo said:

Just wanted to know if anyone else thinks Ash's Bladestorm costs too much energy for each individual mark. Especially low level, it costs way to much for not enough in return. I would want to see the non- invisible cost go to like 7 or something. 

The biggest issue with Ash's Ult...is that Mesa exists.

Bladestorm needs another pass. I like Ash, but his 4th is subpar to Peacemaker in every way except at levels so high, you'll bring a tricked out Squad that will strip armor and STILL make Mess better.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Nazrethim:

It would have had those interactions nerfed, no doubt, but the ability would have remained good on it's own instead of requiring all that cr*p stacked. And do you really think DE rework stuff with that forethought? They don't, they pile stuff over stuff. It's less "The Plan" and more "Katamari on the Tenno". If they planned ahead and really could forsee what they are doing, we wouldn't be arguing here and instead of a massive nerf we will be using a properly reworked ninja.

I still have the upper hand here.

It did require max range, strength and that crap stacked to operate on a similar range, on similar damage and it would've been nerfed to do a fragment of that.

Forethought? Honestly? No.

But they are pretty consequent with theyr policy. If they wouldn't have reworked it, they would've nerfed it. That's a fact. What brings us back to the point where current bladestorm, that did not recieve those nerfs because it is what it is, has potential to do the multiple of the damage for a fragment of the price with mods that do not influence your actuall builds outside of BS in any negative way.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

It did require max range, strength and that crap stacked to operate on a similar range, on similar damage and it would've been nerfed to do a fragment of that.

The ability didn't require max range. I used it just fine with whatever range I had, both plus and minus, depending on mission. And what it required to be good? Nothing really. It worked on it's own, meaning that positive mods were just optional pluses while corrupted mods were trade-offs.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

 If they wouldn't have reworked it, they would've nerfed it. That's a fact.

They would have nerfed the interaction and not the ability itself, which is better than making the ability require said interactions to actually work in the first place.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

What brings us back to the point where current bladestorm, that did not recieve those nerfs because it is what it is,

= it's so nerfed that there is no point in nerfing it further.

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

has potential to do the multiple of the damage for a fragment of the price with mods that do not influence your actuall builds outside of BS in any negative way.

And that part is were your credibility plummets.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Nazrethim:

.

And that part is were your credibility plummets.

Base range was about 20-25m, so you couldn't hit 18 enemys if they weren't cuddling together... you couldn't even hit 18 enemys on max range, which we allready covered. The extra hits on less then 18 enemys/cast would be considered extra damage rather then extra efficiency.

So, it was more efficient if you hit more then 7-10 enemys on base range and less efficient if you hit less. (Impossible feat to hit more on base range really)

You could hit enemys 2-3 times on the same efficiency, which was up to 3x the damage.

You can do 6x the damage now for the same efficiency, double of what BS could do with multiple hits and 3x the animations, thus the exact same animation time BS needs now without attack speed mods or for up to 9,5x the damage (no need for overextendet, one hit each), on a slightly lower efficiency (since it's was, again, difficult not to get stuck even then)

By utopic examples, it was ~80% cheaper, for 1/6 - 1/10 of the damage, in reality, it was more expensive for up to half the damage.

Edited November 15, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Base range was about 20-25m, so you couldn't hit 18 enemys if they weren't cuddling together... you couldn't even hit 18 enemys on max range, which we allready covered. The extra hits on less then 18 enemys/cast would be considered extra damage rather then extra efficiency.

It was 20m Targeting range (for initial target) and 20m radius around that target. If you couldn't hit 12 to 18 enemies it's because there weren't that many in the first place and you just used BS because it was the easy option.

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So, it was more efficient if you hit more then 7-10 enemys on base range and less efficient if you hit less. (Impossible feat to hit more on base range really)

Difficult, not impossible, while Solo. In squads it wasn't rare to have that many enemies stacked in one place due to increased spawnrates.

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You could hit enemys 2-3 times on the same efficiency, which was up to 3x the damage.

Contrary to now that it drains twice or trice more energy to get that multiple attack damage boost.

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You can do 6x the damage now for the same efficiency, double of what BS could do with multiple hits and 3x the animations, thus the exact same animation time BS needs now without attack speed mods or for up to 9,5x the damage (no need for overextendet, one hit each), on a slightly lower efficiency (since it's was, again, difficult not to get stuck even then)

By utopic examples, it was ~80% cheaper, for 1/6 - 1/10 of the damage, in reality, it was more expensive for up to half the damage.

Ok those are crazy numbers pulled out of nowhere.

BS in it's current form deals only 200 more damage per attack than Old BS (2000 vs 1800). Old used 100 energy on 18 attacks, at 5.5' energy per attack. Current one deals 200 more damage (a tiny 11% increase) but costs 15 per attack, which is a 174% increase in cost (200% rounded by the game). So Old BS dealt 32400 damage (not accounting for bleeds) over 18 attacks for 100 energy. Current BS deals 36000 damage (not accounting for bleeds) over 18 attacks/marks for 270 energy. That's not exactly "slightly lower efficiency".

It was 63% cheaper and dealt 10% less damage than current, not 1/6-1/10

And factor in animations it's 3 times slower because Ash attacks everyone individually.

And not getting stuck wasn't actually difficult either, you just needed to identify the shiny eximi units that usually make their prescense known inmediately and take them out first. Or refrain from using BS unless the situation was dire and there was not time for nitpicking elite units. A.K.A.: Not being a braindead spammer idiot

Edited November 16, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Nazrethim:

 

1800 with no multipliers hitting multiple times vs 2000 with up to x 6 combo multipliers as the game goes on. Plus more strength using the same strength  mods on default or the same range. You realise that i'm repeating myself at that point right?

 

[Arcticblizzard]

I think the only frames that do not have an energy problem are those on a tanky brawler build like Nidus, Inaros, Oberon, etc... So to say that he can't use his 4th much unless you are a full efficiency build is kinda true for most of the warframes. So as to the original topic question, I do not see a major issue with Ash's energy costs.

On a side note, Ash lacks to one detail that most of the other warframes' 4th does have, and that is a safety net for when they finish their 4th. Frost freezes his enemies, Saryn causes stagger, Gara just made a bullet proof wall and her enemies are very slow if not solid already. When Ash comes out of his 4th, its like a Grineer Commander just switch teleported with you. You come out with everyone still alive shooting at you and there is little you can do about it. Being that his Smoke Screen lasts so short compared to the other stealth frames, may be make it so that the duration on Smoke Screen pauses until he finishes his Blade Storm or he gets a 2-3 sec invisibility when Blade storm finishes.

I can't really comment on any of the other noted problems that have already been addressed by the fellow teno until this one is solved.

Thank you teno for your time and look forward to your comments.

Arcticblizzard

[Nazrethim]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

1800 with no multipliers hitting multiple times vs 2000 with up to x 6 combo multipliers as the game goes on. Plus more strength using the same strength  mods on default or the same range. You realise that i'm repeating myself at that point right?

Welcome to my world. I've been pointing out crystal clear design flaws over and over, in different threads, and you still defend failstorm despite all evidence pointing it's utter garbage.

 

30 minutes ago, Arcticblizzard said:

 may be make it so that the duration on Smoke Screen pauses until he finishes his Blade Storm or he gets a 2-3 sec invisibility when Blade storm finishes.

This has been requested, many times. That calls into question 'why have cutscene at all? All I see is a blob of smoke humping enemies' however.

30 minutes ago, Arcticblizzard said:

Thank you teno for your time and look forward to your comments.

Arcticblizzard

Thank you for commenting, most of this thread has devolved into a back&forth debate between @(PS4)CoolD2108 and me, so seeing someone else comment is a bit of a relief.

[Sasuda]

Personally I've always thought Bladestorm wasn't very good. It was boring yes but mostly it's really slow. I don't use Ash because of it. Sure he can do dome good damage but by the time he starts everything is dead or by the time he's finished I've already moved on and killed plenty more enemies.
As far as the back forth goes, I have to agree with @Nazrethim for the most part here. It's a massive nerf. The functionality cuts were real big. It costs too much. If it were cheap the whole marking system might be okay but it's not. Marking enemies alone slows you down even more, needing line of sight is annoying for it as well, it doesn't count as stealth which would be the only boost that the marking system could have enjoyed. It's not any more engaging than before, the marking of units just doesn't belong too much here. Personally I don't want to see him restored though. I want Bladestorm to be changed to be active more than anything.
I've posted this potential rework before and I'll post it again. It manages to keep the "super cool animations", while speeding them up, and primarily gives the player control of Bladestorm.

I haven't worked out the energy costs really because I think it would have to be tested before crunching but I'm sure someone could manage the numbers (you can for the most part ignore the energy cost suggested, feel free to come up with your own)

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Bladestorm could be made so that it automatically finds targets, but you move between and attack your targets more intentionally. Giving players more than a cutscene to watch without the aiming function (since it really doesn't make it more engaging and slows Ash down a ton)
 

1. Bladestorm would be activated with 4, while targeting an enemy. (you just have to start it looking at an enemy)
2. You teleport to the first enemy automatically along with dealing your first slash to the enemy.
3. If the enemy is still alive you may chose to continue attacking the current enemy with your quick melee button (each attack costs 1 energy). Finisher damage with slash procs and all, basically the same damage numbers probably.
4. Or hit 3 to move to the next enemy (each teleport also costs 5 energy)(killing the enemy would automatically send you to your next target, or deactivate Bladestorm if there are none). Again automatically it will give the first slash on teleport.
5. Hitting 4 a second time could end Bladestorm early.

This allows you to potentially choose how long you activate, the number of targets, all while maintaining speed and doing more than watch an animation. The energy drain would be an initial 25, then subsequent teleports being 5, and additional slashes 1 (numbers likely need tweaking, I'm mostly pushing the mechanics of control). The speed of attacking and teleporting also needs to be very, very fast. Nothing too fancy for animation, as long as it's quick it'll look good.

Invisibility could still halve the cost. The only additional thing is it would need some sort of timer to deactivation of Bladestorm (either on individual enemies (you have a limited time at an individual enemy max of 2 seconds before teleporting) or just overall 20 seconds),

OR an energy drain over time (I don't think it should be this with the suggested energy cost model I made or it gets way too energy expensive),

OR vulnerable to damage so that you can't sit at an enemy and take no damage. This would leave Smoke bomb as your main method of emergency escape (possibly in junction with switch teleport) .

In other words the player controls the speed of Ash's bladestorm, sure you could still use it in the same mindnumbing way mashing quick melee but potentially your energy, health and timing would be penalized when you use it like that, along with being careful about keeping your target or moving to a different one. And you'll be rewarded for being quick reacting and choosing your targets.
 

There's a number of other good suggestions on the megathread https://forums.warframe.com/topic/725161-ash-revisited-feedback-megathread/?page=133

 

[DoctorCrain]

Only 1 mark needed for max damage and smoke screen being paused while bladestorming would go a long way in fixing the ability if they insist on keeping it as it is now.