Mesa Passive

[meristu]

This is our beloved Mesas passive:

+50 health (No bonus health in Conclave) when a melee weapon is not equipped (value unaffected by base or total health).

I propose changing this to: when whip, blade/whip or gunblade is equipped. Not necessarily all 3, gunblade will do.

 

First reason whips and gunblades are really cool weapons and would be fun to see them more often, gunblades would fit Mesa, who is supposed to be gun themed frame, because nothing says gun more than sword that can shoot, and whips/bladwhips look rather like lasso which would fit her space cowboy theme.

 

Second reason would be the actual reason, I think that for small 50hp boost Mesa is giving away very important tool. If it was bonus for no primary equipped it would be much better than no melee. Space cowboy with sword isnt any less silly than space cowboy with grenade launcher and would make more sense as she has all her other passives for secondary weapons and her 4th is secondary weapon too, so she doesnt like primaries. But melee isnt just weapon, its important tool and part of the warframe. You need it for stealth kills, you can block with it, AoE disable, you can use it to break stuff like containers or sensor bars. Throwing away one of your 2 ranged weapons wouldnt be such downgrade as losing melee weapon. Also Mesa is the only frame who has passive with "disadvantage", there is Excalibur who is "forced" to use certain weapon type but he still can have all weapons, but Mesa simply has to go without full equip.

Edited November 12, 2017 by meristu

[Mavor]

The reason its a small health boost is because she has 2 other passives as well.

Personally I always have a melee weapon with her, just more useful to me than +50 health.

[meristu]

35 minutes ago, Mavor said:

more useful to me than +50 health.

well its good enough considering the other half of her passive but the solution could be better

[TKDancer]

she also gets faster reload on single secondaries and faster fire rate on dual secondaries so its fine

[Raven-Spyre]

3 hours ago, TKDancer said:

she also gets faster reload on single secondaries and faster fire rate on dual secondaries so its fine

In all reality these are actually kind of meh passives for mesa considering in all cases your pistols are set up to boost your Regulators. I think a new passive for Mesa would be in order at this point because faster reload for a one pistol or faster fire rate with dualies you barely are going to bother with over your primary weapon as you most likely don't even care to use your secondaries outside of specific sortie runs or maybe an Teralyst fight and most of the time, your modding will be for the most optimal of your Regulators, which is not always most optimal for your pistols. So again, kind of meh passives all around that do very little to help out Mesa as a whole compared to most other frame passives.

[TKDancer]

8 minutes ago, ChampionSheWolf said:

In all reality these are actually kind of meh passives for mesa considering in all cases your pistols are set up to boost your Regulators. I think a new passive for Mesa would be in order at this point because faster reload for a one pistol or faster fire rate with dualies you barely are going to bother with over your primary weapon as you most likely don't even care to use your secondaries outside of specific sortie runs or maybe an Teralyst fight and most of the time, your modding will be for the most optimal of your Regulators, which is not always most optimal for your pistols. So again, kind of meh passives all around that do very little to help out Mesa as a whole compared to most other frame passives.

i mean u arent wrong

 

but at the same time i cant think of an actually good and meaningful passive for mesa, cause shes one of the few frames that are just... good

 

her weakest ability is still strong and the rest is 10/10,  so... eh

[Raven-Spyre]

If you mean Ballistic Battery, I bet most people don't even know it's name, let alone use it. Hell I doubt many people even know what it does (Gives a flat damage boost for those who were curious that really isn't useful outside of maybe one boss in low level content). The only thing I found it useful for it maybe a bit of extra oomph fighting the Teralyst but I still forget about it because it's that worthless.

 

But I agree with the OP, having something that would give hr a perk for using a whip or gunblade would fit more into Mesa's style than a bit of extra HP, which does not fit the cowgirl aesthetic at all. It would be different if this extra HP was boosted by Vitality then it might be worth it, but beyond that, eh. Feels like it was slapped on last second or something and not given any thought beyond that. Honestly would love a whip weapon that looks like a whip for Mesa, and curious what weapons will be prime with her.

[Grave.Knight]

She should at least get a bonus when using a Gunblade in the same vain that Excalibur gets a bonus for using a Sword.

[Eirshy]

In defense of Ballistic Battery, thing's amazing for instantly popping Arctic Eximus bubbles, or taking down Heavy Gunners / Bombards / Napalms with a low DPH weapon (ie, Tenora).

Also I disagree with the notion that pistols on her are only for plugging into the Regulators. Just because you can use her 4 doesn't mean you have to, and there's both targets it can't lock onto and a hard 50m range limit. Plus it can be rather energy inefficient if there's only a few mobs.

[Raven-Spyre]

2 hours ago, TheBlueJelly said:

In defense of Ballistic Battery, thing's amazing for instantly popping Arctic Eximus bubbles, or taking down Heavy Gunners / Bombards / Napalms with a low DPH weapon (ie, Tenora).

Also I disagree with the notion that pistols on her are only for plugging into the Regulators. Just because you can use her 4 doesn't mean you have to, and there's both targets it can't lock onto and a hard 50m range limit. Plus it can be rather energy inefficient if there's only a few mobs.

Well good if you found a use for Ballistic Battery but a lot of work to charge up just for one target every few seconds, especially when multiples of said targets start piling in.

 

As far as your second opinion on the Regulators; no just no. First and foremost, if you are one of those people that think using a frames power is bad, well you are playing the wrong game. There's little point to playing a frame if you are not going to utilize the strengths of said frame. Furthermore Regulators are hardly inefficient energy wise. I know people got use to Zenurik endless energy supply but even before then you could easily make Regulators manageable. Hell I get accused of hacking because well I don't spend my entire time in peacemaker mode and I abuse the hell out of the physics engine so I am moving while using the Regulators. So I am constantly getting energy drops as well as still putting down fields for my operator to get more energy.

 

If you play the game where you are going "I want to challenge myself and not use the powers of my frame" more power to you. Because that's exactly what you are saying when you make a point to disagree with the fact that if you aren't slotting your pistols for Regulators then you are playing the wrong frame. You have a primary for that purpose then, which I will use my sybaris prime or my vectis prime depending on my mood or mission I am in. Very few circumstances where you need to go "gosh diggity darn I need to use my pistols over my primary weapon or Regulators" at any point in any mission. Even leech eximus should be melting too fast to be an issue for energy management, and even in those cases that's what the squad energy restore items are for.

 

It gets silly seeing people trying to make weird restrictions on their very own game play in the end, based on not using a keystone power of a frame. And 50 meters is quite a distance, and if you are worried about 50 meters being too far for regulators, then you might want to consider your primary over your pistols anyways due to damage fall off to begin with.

[Eirshy]

1 hour ago, ChampionSheWolf said:

Well good if you found a use for Ballistic Battery but a lot of work to charge up just for one target every few seconds, especially when multiples of said targets start piling in.

 

[Waa waa you have to play Mesa only my way otherwise you're bad and wrong and should uninstall.]

Wow.

Okay first off, the arctic eximi bubble isn't that common outside of eximus stronghold sorties. Additionally, it's not exactly "work" to charge up Battery, seeing as you press 1 then continue to shoot things. You don't need a full charge, and even if you did most weapons charge it rather quickly. Is it some godlike superpower? No. Does it have its uses? Yes. It's a cheap little boon that costs you very little to use.
 

Second off, before even looking at Mesa's 4, look at her 2 and 3. 2 gives a major damage amp to all shooty, with a short range (if you run Narrow Minded like me) weapon disable to keep enemies less of a problem up close. Her 3 gives absurd DR (re: the magical 95%) vs all ranged attacks. And unlike Mirage, it's not conditional on the tileset or on a frame that is naturally squishy.

Those two abilities make for a great any-weapon user. Melee likes the weapon disable and vs ranged DR, shooty likes the damage amp and the vs ranged DR (with the weapon disable as a bonus).

 

Now, and ONLY now, look at her 4.

Your secondary feeds it, yes, but still exists as your secondary. And it functions without needing energy. Without having to abuse momentum to keep some mobility while using it (reminder, you can't generate more movement while in it). Without being told to "stop" by Nullifiers or Manet Man, or a boss's invulns mechanic, or the capture target, or or or...

My secondary is still a weapon. It may be selected from a pool of secondaries that function well in the same build as the Regulators (there's a lot of them; Euphona Prime is one of my favorites). It may be one that's only mediocre in that role (I'm really fond of the Telos Boltace for appearance purposes). But it's still a gun that still shoots perfectly fine.

 

So excuse me for offending your delicate elitist ego by daring to play a frame that has a lot more than just her 4 outside of your little tryhardicus bubble. And that's purely looking at her mechanically. What's more, I honestly don't even find her 4 fun.
Strong? Definitely.
But fun?
It's a good fallback for when whatever the rest of your loadout is marginally out of its depth, but if I wanted to aimbot all day I'd be playing CoD.

Edited November 14, 2017 by TheBlueJelly
Forgot to paraphrase the quote.

[DeltaPangaea]

There's a lot of silly things DE has done with Mesa. No more cool posing in Peacemaker, her frankly bizzare slew of meh passives, and how she has an augment for dodgerolling during peacemaker, but they limited it to PvP only for some asinine reason.

Poor girl. She might be mechanically viable on the whole, but when you look closer she's got some problems.

[TKDancer]

21 hours ago, TheBlueJelly said:

Wow.

Okay first off, the arctic eximi bubble isn't that common outside of eximus stronghold sorties. Additionally, it's not exactly "work" to charge up Battery, seeing as you press 1 then continue to shoot things. You don't need a full charge, and even if you did most weapons charge it rather quickly. Is it some godlike superpower? No. Does it have its uses? Yes. It's a cheap little boon that costs you very little to use.

u'd be right if:

 

1. this game's combat didnt send hordes upon hordes of enemies at us, making (mostly)single target dmg abilities generally less useful, especially when her 4 exists

 

2. for some reason not all weapon mods affect it, including no raw dmg mods

[Eirshy]

35 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

u'd be right if:

 

1. this game's combat didnt send hordes upon hordes of enemies at us, making (mostly)single target dmg abilities generally less useful, especially when her 4 exists

 

2. for some reason not all weapon mods affect it, including no raw dmg mods

I don't recall whether or not her 4 actually blaps through an Eximus bubble, but then, the majority of my post was going over how I don't like using her 4. As for the rest of that statement, still doesn't send throngs of Acrtic Eximii at you outside of Eximus Stronghold sorties.

As for your second point: it doesn't need to. Have you ever actually tried it? The base amount is 1600 while power-netural. Maxed Serration on the Lanka (base 525, one of the highest base damage weapons in the game) is only 1391.25. Ballistic Battery adds 115% post-Serration, ~305% pre. Throw this instead onto, say, an Argonak shot, and you're looking at a ~1059% increase in damage on one shot post-Serration, 2807% pre.

The point of her 1 is to give any weapon sniper-tier minimum damage on a single shot, and It's nothing to charge up. Even the absurdly-powerful Lanka gets more than an x2 in damage without having it scale to Serration- and this is without any power strength mods.

 

Ballistic Battery has its uses.

Edited November 14, 2017 by TheBlueJelly
noted minimum; it doesn't multiply by Multishot (for good reason: shotguns), but Split Chamber is 90%, not 100%.

[Raven-Spyre]

Ballistic Battery really has no uses. You're trying to fit a square peg into a wiggly worm hole at this point and actually giving it credit for things it doesn't actually do. Yea, in low level content, Ballistic Battery can seem awesome, but if you are fighting anything in 50+ content it is absolutely worthless.

[Eirshy]

11 minutes ago, ChampionSheWolf said:

Ballistic Battery really has no uses. You're trying to fit a square peg into a wiggly worm hole at this point and actually giving it credit for things it doesn't actually do. Yea, in low level content, Ballistic Battery can seem awesome, but if you are fighting anything in 50+ content it is absolutely worthless.

It adds literally a Lanka shot worth of damage to a single hit from any weapon, and that's without power strength mods.

As someone who uses the Lanka regularly, that's enough to headshot oneshot into the 100s if your build isn't a complete mess for the content. Obviously not useful for the riffraff, but occasionally deleting an eximus is quite useful given how low-effort the use is.

Edited November 14, 2017 by TheBlueJelly

[DeltaPangaea]

Just now, TheBlueJelly said:

It adds literally a Lanka shot worth of damage to a single hit from any weapon, and that's without power strength mods.

As someone who uses the Lanka regularly, that's enough to headshot oneshot well into the 100s if your build isn't a complete mess for the content. Obviously not useful for the riffraff, but occasionally deleting an eximus is quite useful given how low-effort the use is.

Honestly my biggest beef with Ballistic Battery is how intrusive the visual effect is when it's charged. Like 70% of Mesa's model is blocked out by the power color.

[Eirshy]

Just now, DeltaPangaea said:

Honestly my biggest beef with Ballistic Battery is how intrusive the visual effect is when it's charged. Like 70% of Mesa's model is blocked out by the power color.

Now THIS is a complaint I can get behind.

Not just a problem for appearance.... it also eats up a lot of screen when aiming, too. Really annoying if you use a bright energy color because you want people with Bloom turned on to suffer for their choice lol

[DeltaPangaea]

20 minutes ago, TheBlueJelly said:

Now THIS is a complaint I can get behind.

Not just a problem for appearance.... it also eats up a lot of screen when aiming, too. Really annoying if you use a bright energy color because you want people with Bloom turned on to suffer for their choice lol

Its appearance when uncharged is alright by me, but it could be a little better. If it were up to me... it would have the visual effect on Mesa that Shooting Gallery has, but on both hands. Shooting Gallery's visual effect on Mesa is changed to her elbow-cartridges glowing, and Shatter Shield retains the visual effect of them emitting gas.

Although I do have to admit I find myself just not using it because it's just... one shot. One person. Giving the shot a hefty deal of punchthrough as well depending on how charged it is would also make it a little bit more satisfying to use. It is a bit of a pain having to precharge it though.

It'd be MUCH smoother to use if you didn't have to use it to set it charging. Like it just gathers damage on its own, and then you use the energy when you set it to be fired. The energy expenditure per shot is the same, it's just less of a pain to use.

[TKDancer]

6 hours ago, TheBlueJelly said:

I don't recall whether or not her 4 actually blaps through an Eximus bubble, but then, the majority of my post was going over how I don't like using her 4. As for the rest of that statement, still doesn't send throngs of Acrtic Eximii at you outside of Eximus Stronghold sorties.

As for your second point: it doesn't need to. Have you ever actually tried it? The base amount is 1600 while power-netural. Maxed Serration on the Lanka (base 525, one of the highest base damage weapons in the game) is only 1391.25. Ballistic Battery adds 115% post-Serration, ~305% pre. Throw this instead onto, say, an Argonak shot, and you're looking at a ~1059% increase in damage on one shot post-Serration, 2807% pre.

The point of her 1 is to give any weapon sniper-tier minimum damage on a single shot, and It's nothing to charge up. Even the absurdly-powerful Lanka gets more than an x2 in damage without having it scale to Serration- and this is without any power strength mods.

 

Ballistic Battery has its uses.

my lanka has nearly 6k dmg listed with multishot

 

:^(

 

its a bad ability compared to the rest of her kit, and no, it doesnt really have uses when u can just.. shoot like normal nad barely notice it not being there

 

like there are much worse abilities, the problem with BB is that it only applies to a single shot

 

as for artic eximus, her 4 is finnicky on it, but it can

[Eirshy]

11 hours ago, TKDancer said:

my lanka has nearly 6k dmg listed with multishot

its a bad ability compared to the rest of her kit, and no, it doesnt really have uses when u can just.. shoot like normal nad barely notice it not being there

like there are much worse abilities, the problem with BB is that it only applies to a single shot

as for artic eximus, her 4 is finnicky on it, but it can

On 6k Lanka listed with multishot...
Kinda curious as to what that build is, sounds a bit suboptimal.... I was netting just shy of 7.6k dpb (roughly 52-48 coro-co) before multishot, crit, or my Riven- and I never use Heavy Cal. With my riven, my eidolon-slaying build hits around ~6755 dpb in pure radiation before multishot (or crit, obviously).

On the which mods don't actually get applied...
The thing is, the only mods that don't apply to BB are +dmg and +multi.
Elemental and Crit (as well as headshot) are still applied. Not sure if sniper combo is- would have to test that one. But regardless, that means without a riven, you're looking at 525+165%, which is 1391.25 dmg. And again, I was comparing this to the unmodded 1600 base damage of BB. Add a maxed Transient Fortitude (+55%) and no other power strength mods and you're looking at 2480- which is ~68 higher than my riven'd Lanka's ~2412 base+dmg (at +359.5%).

As for why I wasn't counting Split Chamber... 10% of the time Split Chamber does nothing, and on a sniper weapon, that's extremely bad. Additionally, I've found that Harkonar Scope with the new combo meter being decay 1 instead of all makes for a good consistent replacement. On the Lanka, you're at 18s per decay and I believe 6 hits to reach x2 base. And since you already have guaranteed crits at full zoom, you don't need the extra dice to get your minimum up.

On "and barely notice it not being there"...
Again, don't think you've actually used it.

On it being bad compared to the rest of her kit...
I'd say it's just a bit underwhelming. It's actually a fairly decent ability that really just needs a usability and graphical tweek to be perfectly fine.

On the problem being it only applying on a single shot...
I'd say it's more usability issues.

On Acrtics being finicky with Peacemaker...
Glad it wasn't just my memory playing tricks on me related to it lol

Edited November 15, 2017 by TheBlueJelly
Made it a full reply instead of a cherrypicked one; added note about Split and Harkonar

[TKDancer]

1 hour ago, TheBlueJelly said:

On "and barely notice it not being there"...

Again, don't think you've actually used it.

 

cause i barely notice its absence

 

i use it when i remember it exists cause why not, but i dont feel it helping me at all

 

as for my lanka i run with the 60/60 mods instead of 90% elementals, prolly why i have less dmg than u, also i think i only put 1 or 2 forma in it

Edited November 15, 2017 by TKDancer

[Eirshy]

55 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

as for my lanka i run with the 60/60 mods instead of 90% elementals, prolly why i have less dmg than u, also i think i only put 1 or 2 forma in it

Ye, 3060 dpb with just two ele/stat mods and serration. That would do it. Meanwhile the 7.6k was with two +ele, a Primed +ele, and Serration.

Think my Lanka's at... 7 forma? Was at 6 before I got the riven iirc, but then I almost exclusively used the Lanka back when she dealt 300 Serrated Blade damage (and prior to Sniper 2.0, actually), and still have the >30% usage rate (iirc) to prove it lol

Edited November 15, 2017 by TheBlueJelly

[Drasiel]

On 14/11/2017 at 3:24 PM, DeltaPangaea said:

Its appearance when uncharged is alright by me, but it could be a little better. If it were up to me... it would have the visual effect on Mesa that Shooting Gallery has, but on both hands. Shooting Gallery's visual effect on Mesa is changed to her elbow-cartridges glowing, and Shatter Shield retains the visual effect of them emitting gas.

Although I do have to admit I find myself just not using it because it's just... one shot. One person. Giving the shot a hefty deal of punchthrough as well depending on how charged it is would also make it a little bit more satisfying to use. It is a bit of a pain having to precharge it though.

It'd be MUCH smoother to use if you didn't have to use it to set it charging. Like it just gathers damage on its own, and then you use the energy when you set it to be fired. The energy expenditure per shot is the same, it's just less of a pain to use.

This this this. Shooting dudes with guns (probably not peacemaker?) charges damage pressing 1 releases it. Massive qol improvement. 

[DeltaPangaea]

6 hours ago, Drasiel said:

This this this. Shooting dudes with guns (probably not peacemaker?) charges damage pressing 1 releases it. Massive qol improvement. 

I feel like letting it charge during Peacemaker would be fine if you reduce the amount of charge it gets. Just so it's not instantly charged all the time.