Something Must Be Done With Crush

[Archwizard]

I really appreciate the changes that were made to Mag with Update 8.3, believe me, I do. Having more AOE on Pull and Shield Polarize definitely boosted my utility on my Mag, though not being able to Pull fallen allies to safety did come as a bit of a shock. Bullet Attractor's... about the same always, the explosion effect is a neat perk on the end of an ability that I always found spectacular for focus-targets like bosses, though I admit it's still not great for multi-target scenarios due to the comparatively tiny radius of the relatively weak explosion.

However, running missions on my Mag recently, I've really noticed how much of a toll Crush has taken with Update 9's boost to enemy armor. 

 

The thing is, Crush was always my favorite ability to hit on my Mag prior to Update 9; I could zorencopter to opposite ends of defenses and clear the room when things got too hot, give my teammates a few seconds to breathe during a mobile defense, all that jazz. 

 

When you get down to it though, the damage was really all it had going for it, as Crush:

- Lacks mobility: Unlike ultimates such as Overload and Molecular Prime, Crush must be cast while grounded and completely freezes mobility- can't even cast it while sliding like most ultimates. Unlike World on Fire, Mag can't roam the room at high speed afflicting everyone who gets too close with it.

- Has a long cast time: There are a number of ultimates (Molecular Prime, Overload, Rhino Stomp, Vortex, Radial Disarm, Radial Javelin, Miasma) with near-instantaneous casts.

- Leaves Mag completely vulnerable: Absorb and Avalanche fit both of the two above categories, but one makes Frost invulnerable while being cast, and that's... sort of the point for Nyx. Even Miasma and Blade Storm leave their casters invulnerable while casting. Sound Quake and Overload put their casters on display but transfer enough CC over the duration they're functionally untargetable. Mag is one of a select few (including Ember and Trinity) with a longer cast time that leaves her open to the possibility of dying; the difference being that they fill their own niches to compensate for this period of weakness, and more importantly, can pre-cast abilities that will make them a bit less squishy (Overheat and Link). Even if the duration of Crush could be increased, it would just leave her vulnerable even longer.

- Has questionable CC/utility: Crush does not directly and unambiguously benefit allies in the vein of Molecular Prime or Blessing. Unlike Sound Quake, Vortex or Avalanche, it only CCs enemies who enter the radius prior to casting (rather than over the whole duration), and even then only for a very short period. Rhino Stomp provides far more powerful CC without a cast time at what one might naively think to be reduced damage (were it not for my following points). The stun during Crush's cast animation doesn't always register (even if the particle effects latch onto enemies, there's a chance they'll keep hitting you- try it on an Infested map against Chargers, or against Ospreys/Corrupted Sentries, or in the Duel Room since your fellow Tenno lack a compression animation), and the Stagger effect on the end of Crush can be matched if not exceeded by Pull, which is far cheaper, more consistent, farther reaching and provides the added bonus of grouping up enemies for your allies to combust. Because Crush is apparently CC first and damaging ability second, it can't even hurt Stalker.

- Bears a static effect: Damage and duration (of the CC, at least, see "Leaves Mag completely vulnerable") aren't improved by level as in the case of Blade Storm, Radial Javelin, Sound Quake, World on Fire, Molecular Prime, Rhino Stomp, Overload or Miasma; the only thing improved by leveling the ability is its radius (which, even capped out, is still the second-lowest of any ultimate without the Coil helmet). Damage doesn't exploit enemy vulnerabilities like World on Fire or Overload, and doesn't have situational improvements like Avalanche's shield-disruptor or Molecular Prime's grouping bonus. Nothing but a Focus mod can increase its damage, and this last point flows right into...

- Is affected by armor: This wasn't so much of a big one until Update 9- it just meant casting it on Ancients was more of a pain- but given the listed disadvantages Crush had to compensate for its damage, this is sort of a glaring one now. Around the time you reach Uranus, this quality sneaks up on you and gives a very rude awakening. Like I stated above, Rhino Stomp should have been reduced damage compared to Crush, but given its ability to ignore armor, it's literally a better version of Crush in every possible way. Coupled with the above point, that means Crush's damage can only be reduced.

 

Yes, I know every ultimate ability is supposed to have its strengths and its weaknesses which carve out its own niche, and with non-damaging abilities it's comparing apples to oranges, but Crush was basically the min-maxing damage ultimate, stacking a bunch of the weaknesses above for a short stagger and a lot of damage spread over a... livable range, properly modified.

The high damage of Crush was always fine, since that's always what it was advertised for whenever you went to a loading screen that mentioned Mag in the pro-tip off in the corner-

 

"Control of magnetic forces gives Mag the edge in one-on-one combat.

Mastering Mag grants a devastating attack that can reverse the tide of any battle."

 

Today though, I hit Crush three times within a 20 second period during Kappa and couldn't even kill a basic Grineer Lancer right in front of me who I could have shot an equal number of times with greater effect. I found myself basically just spamming Pull from the back of the room since that was more cost-efficient and consistent CC. Not exactly the most apt description of Crush these days.

 

It's not just that the inability to ignore armor makes Crush weak; it's that it means Crush thematically makes no sense. We've all thought of it when reading the description for the ability, or when watching the animation play out: You're forcing an enemy to collapse in upon themself by magnetizing their bones, crumbling them up like a ball of tin foil.

 

How in the Hek does armor mitigate that? And I know I'm not the first one to think this, but shouldn't stabbing a crumbled slab of sheet metal into the middle of your balled-up remains hurt more? They're re-enacting how the trash compactor scene in Star Wars Episode IV should have played out, except the converging walls are their clothes.

 

I know, having Crush's strength reduced doesn't make Mag... unplayable, but it removes the enjoyment of playing her when rolling my enemies into a little ball only causes them to get right back up, brush themselves off and continue shooting at me like nothing happened. In spite of me snapping their spine like a twig, or puncturing their lungs with the inverted spike once called their breastplate.

And yes, most people who have seen threads mentioning this in the past few weeks will tell players to stop whining that they have to have skill and not just push 4 over and over again, ignoring the fact that- as stated above- Crush is the only one of Mag's skills being outright advertised to players, and is probably one of the weakest ultimates out there now (if not, dare I say it, the weakest).

 

Just, please DE, do something to help this ability. Bring back the psychotic glee I felt pushing this button to watch armies crumble before me like a proper ultimate.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Archwizard

[Stygi]

Okay, Mag's Crush just needs more damage and to ignore armor or at least be ap damage. I agree. So what's with the other crap? Well, the getting up after being crushed into a ball makes sense, but I don't see why you added the thing about cast time and cc when there really isn't a problem with it.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Stygi

[Aigloblam]

Well said, Well Reasoned, Well Explained....Well Done.

 

I hope this gets to the "powers that DE" and something is done. I don't particularly like Mag, but maybe i would if her Ult didn't suffer so.

[Aigloblam]

Okay, Mag's Crush just needs more damage and to ignore armor or at least be ap damage. I agree. So what's with the other crap?

He was explaining WHY he wanted something done. It shows that he has thought it through more than "BUFF MAGS CRUSH!". I liked it.

[philleapa]

Mag being my first frame i loved her and loved how useful crush is at normal levels but no it is utterly useless, and i can't tell you how many times i died because i casted crush and a toxic ancient wanted a hug, or how many times i use crush and then someone uses rhino stomp (radial blast actually before the buff on rhino) or miasma and completely wipes out the enemies caught in radius. But magnetizing bones and crushing them into themselves with a crap ton of the ground picked up and being tossed at them should do a lot of damage compared to someone stomping on ground and destroying the whole map.

[Archwizard]

So what's with the other crap? 

 

Put simply?

There's nothing unique about Crush anymore. There is no niche it fills better than (or even as well as) any other skill.

It stacks what would be most skills' disadvantages... and has lost its best advantage.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Archwizard

[xanroth]

perhaps if crush ignores armor and/or deals opponents armor value as extra damage it would be more useful?

[Phoenix86]

I'd say AP dmg conversion would be the better thing...

Since it is 'magnet related' the more 'metallic things' you wear the more efficient crush should be... so AP dmg, to me, it's a justified and needed change

Edited July 29, 2013 by Phoenix86

[Stygi]

Put simply?

There's nothing unique about Crush anymore. There is no niche it fills better than (or even as well as) any other skill.

It stacks what would be most skills' disadvantages... and has lost its best advantage.

I agree that Crush needs a buff or rework. But it seems you liked the un-nerfed version of Crush which had the same cc and cast animation but more reliable damage so I was just confused.

[Aigloblam]

I'd say AP dmg conversion would be the better thing...

Since it is 'magnet related' the more 'metallic things' you wear the more efficient crush should be... so AP dmg, to me, it's a justified and needed change

That seems to be the solution for everything now though, make it ignore armor. I was actually thinking something a bit more over the top, its a pretty radical suggestion, but it doesnt hurt to toss it out there.

 

Why not make it a percentage chance that it will just instantly kill? Not a boss of course, and certain factions would be less likely to be instakilled.

Level 1: Chance to Insta Kill: Grineer: 10%, Corups 20%, Infested: 5%

Level 2: Grineer: 30%, Corpus: 40%, Infested: 20%

Level 3: Grineer: 50%, Corpus: 60%, Infested: 30%

 

Because the corups are not only covered in armor plates, but also are partly MADE of metal. Grineer wear lots of Armor, so it would be effected more. Infested, being totally organic, It wouldn't effect nearly as much.

 

Like i said, Radical huh?

[Stygi]

too much RNG :P

 

I'd say a bit more range, armor ignor/ap damage, and a secondary effect like impaired movement on enemies affected and a bleed which ticks for 1% of max health/sec for the rest of the enemy's lifetime.

[Archwizard]

But it seems you liked the un-nerfed version of Crush which had the same cc and cast animation but more reliable damage so I was just confused.

I overlooked the cast time for the damage, and much like the explosion on the end of Bullet Attractor, I considered the CC a perk but not the main event.

It's all a matter of perspective; it becomes harder to overlook these things with the damage reduced, as it dawns that the ability is actually balanced around the impotent CC aspect too.

 

I'd say AP dmg conversion would be the better thing...

Since it is 'magnet related' the more 'metallic things' you wear the more efficient crush should be... so AP dmg, to me, it's a justified and needed change

 

I'd say a bit more range, armor ignor/ap damage, and a secondary effect like impaired movement on enemies affected and a bleed which ticks for 1% of max health/sec for the rest of the enemy's lifetime.

 

My personal idea was that the ability could either:

- Deal around 800 Physics Impact damage and then 50% additional Armor Penetration damage. That way against minor Infested the ability could deal the same amount of damage as it did before the armor update, while it deals more damage to targets weak to AP. Could potentially be dealt in two ticks, one during the namesake "crush", and a radial pulse when the animation ends to damage enemies who were pounding on you while you were casting.

- Flip the armor formula on its head- as a placeholder formula, damage could be ((100 + Base Armor)/100)x a base amount of Physics Impact damage, say, 800 at max rank; it would be slightly weaker against minor Infested but significantly stronger against armored targets.

^ Both assume that Physics Impact damage was not changed in the update and still completely bypasses armor.

 

Why? Because Mag should be about turning enemy advantages against them. Just look at Bullet Attractor.

 

I agree that the ability could use a secondary effect to boost the utility, but it's not entirely necessary when the damage is properly supported. I did read a suggestion the other day about it applying an armor-reduction effect to enemies affected, which would work as a means of utility but would weaken the ability itself if/when it indeed hits harder against armored targets.

 

I could live with stagger/knockdown immunity while casting, though, if nothing else.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Archwizard

[Paradoxbomb]

It magnetizes bones, which kinda implies that IT GOES THROUGH ARMOR. If anything (as many people before me had said) it should actually do more damage to armored targets. It would be an interesting twist if was weaker against unarmored targets but stronger against targets with heavy armor (that or just fix armor scaling).

[Farge]

Crush would be cool if it took the enemies and crunched them all together into one big ball of gore. It could deal damage based on how many enemies were smooshed together. If some of them survive, they're in a nice pile, ready to be easily pounded on by whatever.

[Numot]

Have crush scale up so it obliterates heavies but doesn't outright kill lights. Having it deal more damage based on resistances and armor would give mag a unique ult that you use to get rid of heavy units, instead of clearing out chaff.

[Matsumori]

I'm fairly new to this game, so I dont know what the ult used to be like but enemies ignore crush generally.  Ive never been to the void or done nightmare mode, but reguar mobs on regular missions past lv30 just ignore crush.  I get the combo thing, you pull them then crush them but its not an effective combo.  Especially when you are comparing it against other frames that can 1-shot the map or or endlessly protect a target or do high sustained damage while moving around the map. 

 

I never use shield polarize because I can't see the status of my teammates shields. 

I rarely use BA and after thinking about a situation where I would use it, I can't think of anything where pull or crush doesnt do a better job.

 

MAG should be ultra powerful based on the lore you created.  Magnetism control when all the baddies are using guns of some sort to shoot you.  Guns don't work on Magneto from Marvel, why should they work vs MAG?  I think an ability that eliminates the enemies ability to attack at range sounds like something that MAG should have.  I think Crush is a solid idea, but the execution is very poor.  The damage is poor and the range is poor compared to other ults.  It would be okay if it was changed to Bastille's radius and after the inital crush it leaves a field of superhigh magnetic force that acts as a 75%+ slow mechanic including bullets.  Or how about the same as before regarding the crushing field, but leave the damage component for the end of the ability duration, after 60 seconds everything remaining in the field is crushed. 

 

Thats all the ideas I have for now. 

[GTG3000]

That seems to be the solution for everything now though, make it ignore armor. I was actually thinking something a bit more over the top, its a pretty radical suggestion, but it doesnt hurt to toss it out there.

 

Why not make it a percentage chance that it will just instantly kill? Not a boss of course, and certain factions would be less likely to be instakilled.

Level 1: Chance to Insta Kill: Grineer: 10%, Corups 20%, Infested: 5%

Level 2: Grineer: 30%, Corpus: 40%, Infested: 20%

Level 3: Grineer: 50%, Corpus: 60%, Infested: 30%

 

Because the corups are not only covered in armor plates, but also are partly MADE of metal. Grineer wear lots of Armor, so it would be effected more. Infested, being totally organic, It wouldn't effect nearly as much.

 

Like i said, Radical huh?

 

Maybe instead of a chance, it would have straight % of health it would instakill things on? LIke... 

 

Base: Grineer/Crewmen/Base infested: 5% Moa/osprey: 10% Ancients: 2.5%

 

And then just go like

 

lvl1: Grineer/Crewmen/Base infested: 10% Moa/osprey: 20% Ancients: 5%

lvl2: Grineer/Crewmen/Base infested: 15% Moa/osprey: 30% Ancients: 7.5%

lvl3: Grineer/Crewmen/Base infested: 20% Moa/osprey: 40% Ancients: 10%

 

Sure that would be OP in places, but the values can be tweaked. Also, it would work a LOT better, if enemies that aren't killed aren't rolled up in the animation. Unrolling from THAT sends my suspension of dispelief down the crapper.

 

Alternatively, crush could be sort of like the Absorb, but instead of small ball, it would be the whole field, capturing anything passing. It could settle for calculating average bullet damage, then multiplying it to the amount of bullets , same thing I proposed for BA damage blast. It could have smaller range of capturing then, but double that range for the resulting explosion. Then, a combo of Mag and Frost could solo grineer/corpus defences with some practice. (I may said something very, very stupid here, don't judge me too harshly).

Edited August 7, 2013 by GTG3000

[Amistyrja]

... uh, how about do more damage with increasing enemy armour? Haven't seen any of those yet.

[GTG3000]

... uh, how about do more damage with increasing enemy armour? Haven't seen any of those yet.

 

I doubt the enemy armour is stored like "100 armour against fire" or something. Hence it would be a bit hard to use it. Although I did suggest that in mag feedback thread.

[Phoenix86]

AP dmg to Crush, AP dmg to Crush, AP dmg to Crush, AP dmg to Crush, AP dmg to Crush, AP dmg to Crush, AP dmg to Crush, AP dmg to Crush...

[Enguzrad]

I like the idea with "more armor = more damage". It would be unique and it would fit description of Crush.

[GTG3000]

Indeed. 

 

In https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/87889-difficulty-balance-of-power-vs-skill-powercreep-and-more/'>this thread, OP, besides everything else you should have red already, posted a table, with the armour values in it. I don't know where he got it, but if crush woul be doing exactly that damage as AP, it would be very feasible.

[Enguzrad]

Thanks for the link, very informative thread.

According to that armor table would still take 3 Crushes to take down lvl 100 enemy, but thats a hell lot better then it is now.

[GTG3000]

That would be _very_ awesome, but I am not sure if it would be OP or not. Besides that, Scott really has to come up with different animations for killed enemies and those merely damaged.

[Aigloblam]

AP dmg to Crush, AP dmg to Crush, AP dmg to Crush, AP dmg to Crush, AP dmg to Crush, AP dmg to Crush, AP dmg to Crush, AP dmg to Crush...

That simply will not work. This game is leading very quickly into nothing but AP or Armor Ignore. We cant just solve all of our problems by adding AP/AI on to something....