Something Must Be Done With Crush

[cr4ckin_d0pe]

I was supposed to make a thread about this w/ suggestions...

anyways these are what I think of crush

 

--btw agreed with your post. very well written though you really should stress out the armor mitigation. Cast time and mobility would be a bit of a small issue FOR ME if you have stretch or coil helmet which would affect the whole room, but again good job on this post, hopefully it gets DE's attention--

 

Back when I started playing warframe crush was one of the most op 4s ever but now... meh. DE didnt really nerf it but with the intro of nova, vauby, rhino 4 change, saryn, *insert op 4 warframe*, and the wtf armor scaling of enemies, it would be like a flat nerf to crush. Though I will leave it to DE how will they change it, here are some things I thought of.

Oh and if they would make an overhaul of it, i would like to see the original mod card of the orig. crush

 

1. Black hole crush

In this variation of crush, mag greatly magnetize one enemy unit. Everyone 15/17/19/21 meters around that unit will be sucked into and would be crushed and explodes (like the bio-bomb in prototype 2). Amount of damage would be 10/20/30/40*(amount of enemies sucked) + 100/200/300/400 AP damage. Deals half damage to infested.

 

2. Armor ignore crush w/ effects

Crush will now do AP/AI dam. and slows move speed and attack speed. Probably the most demanded/suggested kind of buff.

 

3. Charged crush

 

Here, mag will charge herself with energy for 4/5/7/8 seconds being resistant to damage (but not immune). While charging, everyone around her will be pulled into her slowly. After charging, mag will release the charged energy to gravitational energy and damages everyone inside the radius of 12/13/14/15 meters. Damage dealt will be scaled on how near or far the enemy unit is (near= more dam. far= less dam.)

 

In summary, crush sucks because of the armor stupidly scaling. Amount of damage is high and range is good but crush is supposed to be a kill everything button, now it's more of a CC ability 'cause of its push. Though if DE would implement AP/AI dam. here, I would witness how "Innate AI wepons/skills nerf pls buff bullet damage rage kthnxby" would also stupidly and exaggeratedly scale up in feedback subforums.

Can't think of anymore but hopefully this would give some ideas to you people and to DE. Oh and I dont own a mag and im not calling out for any nerfs on other frames. And please dont mind my IGN...

Edited August 8, 2013 by cr4ckin_d0pe

[Archwizard]

That simply will not work. This game is leading very quickly into nothing but AP or Armor Ignore. We cant just solve all of our problems by adding AP/AI on to something....

 

This is an argument I'd go with for a frame that had base elemental properties (Saryn, Volt, Ember, Frost) or some special property that could lead to more damage within itself (Nova, Nyx, Excalibur).

Not for a frame like Mag, whose ultimate takes so many disadvantages that the only reason to cast it is for a little AoE damage.

Especially when lore-wise, logically, aesthetically, and thematically speaking, Mag's abilities should tear through armor because the armor itself is the weapon being wielded.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Archwizard

[Archwizard]

That simply will not work. This game is leading very quickly into nothing but AP or Armor Ignore. We cant just solve all of our problems by adding AP/AI on to something....

 

Further on this, methinks you need to look up a few posts at...

 

this thread

 

But to sum up, at level 20 the armor on mobs is high enough that nearly two-thirds of damage taken dissipates into the air. The inflation of armor is such that a level 100 Elite Grineer Lancer would be able to tank 34 consecutive Crushes without dying.

There's sort of a point to the armor-ignore posts; without it, enemies are simply ridiculous.

[Aigloblam]

Further on this, methinks you need to look up a few posts at...

 

 

But to sum up, at level 20 the armor on mobs is high enough that nearly two-thirds of damage taken dissipates into the air. The inflation of armor is such that a level 100 Elite Grineer Lancer would be able to tank 34 consecutive Crushes without dying.

There's sort of a point to the armor-ignore posts; without it, enemies are simply ridiculous.

I admit, the big reason i said that was that i had just come from reading maybe 15 threads where everyone is screaming for literally everything to be made AI. I can totally agree something must be done with Crush, In fact i'd even say its a serious issue with Overload too. I really like the idea of having it directly proportional to the amount of armor the enemy had....But that would make it almost useless in lower levels, and a God-like ability late in the game. Im not sure if that would be a good thing or not in the end, But it would certainly break up the monotonous gameplay thats causing a problem. I just think there should be better ways to improve something like Crush, without resorting to simply adding Armor Ignore. I wish i could explain why i hated the idea so much.

[GTG3000]

I understand that, but, if the crush was changed to deal enemy's armour value in AP, it would work PRECISELY like it should work. 

 

Sure, that sounds obnoxious if to take current way the difficulty 'scales', but that's the way it should be - you cast ultimate, you kill/severely damage guys. The problem here is that there's no other difficulty scale in the game. The missions tend to have randomized 1-5 difficulty, and that's about the only good part about it - as you proceed, only obstacle that changes is that the enemies are harder to kill. 

 

In a game like this, the enemies shouldn't be bulletsponges. In fact, if DE wants to make it paced, they should be the opposite. Starting from a certain level, they should be like us, e.g. easy to kill and dishing out damage. Having 3k health at level 100 would be more than enough, if enemies were actually challenging, as opposed to being challenging just because you can't kill them. 

 

For example, grineer lancers shouldn't be a bulletsponge unless they hide behind a shield lancer, and DE should really aim to make shield lancers REALLY hard to shoot if they're facing you, as opposed to just shooting at the top of their shields. I suppose DE could also think about spawning them in groups with some purpose in mind, as opposed to just random-picking. How about four shield grineer, that set up a shield barrier for a heavy to shoot from behind? 

 

While the challenge in this game relies solely on enemies, dealing and taking more damage, there's no good way to balance things that aren't AP/AI.

[Enguzrad]

Either make Crush good against armor or add to it some effect. For example Rhino Stomp knocks down enemies.
Unlike weapons, abilities can't target weak spots (not to mention that most of grineer don't have any unarmored spot) so AI, AP or other elemental damage is the only option for them.

[Archwizard]

But that would make it almost useless in lower levels, and a God-like ability late in the game.

I think that more depends on the base damage and formulas used.

Further, the health/shields of enemies at lower levels is still fairly low. If the base damage of the ability can do more than 200 damage (ie rank 2 Rhino Stomp) then it should still be highly effective until rank 30, just without too much excess damage early on, or perhaps encourage you to weaken your opponents with Shield Polarize before casting.

 

Assuming Shield Polarize gets some sort of lasting shield degeneration anyway, given Crush's casting time.

[Kobalt]

Crush

It's a fantastic control tool, especially after they added the ragdoll to the end [great move!]. The damage on the other hand leaves something to be desired. The edition of elite lancers and their shields also takes a chunk out of the damage before armor mitigation. I do see this skill as have more of a utility function over being strictly damage based though. It's CC is great, but even I have to admit that several other frames are getting a better bang for their buck. Similar CC, far greater damage and not being locked into an animation. It is also her sole true damage skill. A lot of people would like to see armor ignore happen for mag, but I think that full armor ignore it too good and relegates her other skills [makes nothing else worth casting]. 1 button frames are becoming a big issue in the game. So I would choose to enhance her in a way that adds utility while increasing her late game scaling.

Fixes:

- Crush applies a non-stacking debuff to the target before damage is assigned and until death, reducing it's armor by 50%.

- Crush damage bypasses shields.

This would allow a Mag to better scale into late game with her damage as well as be an asset to her team. It also allows for versatility. A Mag who wants to spec into damage over support can run things like Focus and Corrosive projection to get that big damage they are looking for. Support Mags can ignore such things and keep using the skill as a mass CC, while supporting the by increasing their output! I think it is exactly the right amount of give to make the skill feel relevant without making it the only worthwhile solution.

Taken from my mag review post-buff! I still think it is the answer, especially since there have been confirmations to armor inversion in other threads [seems broken at the moment, so I would like to see if DE will change how it works first]. Adds utility and damage without completely rewriting her balance. If I could I would add to it that before the actual damage happens, anything that walked in would still be effected. Given the range she wields the skills with, she would be pretty safe at that point.

AP is a horrible idea for Mag's ult, functionally and thematically. People make the assumption that the armor is made of a magnetizable metal, which does not have to be true. They could just as easily be a complex alloy, polymer, ceramics or some element that has no place in our world [much like morphics]. At the same time people who don't understand how she magnetizes bones, forget our chemical make-up and that most creatures on the planet do have iron in there bones [Generally not enough to be heavily effected by magnetism though]. That aside, armor piercing as we know it is about force/velocity. Crush's damage could theoretically be completely internal, the magnetism may not even effect the armor...Though I think crushing them into a ball would do something to their armor.

Functionally, AP is a horrible idea! Mainly because it doesn't actually serve the function people in this post want it to! Crush always deals it's damage to the body of the target, Corpus and Grineer only take heavy damage from AP to the head. To the body they take varying AP damage, medium Grineer would take 150% damage with all other Grineer/Corpus taking the same as if they had armor ignore. The real problem comes from the infested. Ancients taking the full damage, but everything else being reduced by 50%. Making Mag's Crush AP gimps her more than it helps. If you want to go that route, please just ask for armor ignore!

If you want to do something cool, devise a damage type specifically for her and future content [like Crush damage]. I see it as a utility oriented skill more than a damage one. I would personally make her the CC portion of it longer [scalable] before adding damage to it, along with allowing anything that walked in pre-damage to be caught. I don't feel like people who love mag choose Mag to get kills, so much as be a good interesting support to play for their team.

In the case you do want damage though, why not just have her do the damage she does now and add onto that. Say, x% of the target's missing health as additional damage effectable by focus. This would make her damage scale with levels while making it more of a clean-up/execute tool. There are no frames with execute components yet, which would make her very unique. I will warn one thing though, that kind of damage cannot entirely ignore armor without breaking the game. Percentage based health armor ignoring damage is completely uncounterable from a design aspect without power creep!

If you know the mechanics of the game, while my solution may seem tame at first glance...It is actually incredibly powerful! It is also versatile, in that it allows the player to make powerful choices on a team/solo level!

Before anyone says that Crush ignoring shields relegates Shield Polarize, this is only true in a small level window. Due to the effective health/armor system, there come a point at which even with this buff [unless you run corrosive projection on top of it to itemize your damage] a single crush will still not kill the enemy. In which case afterwards their shields will still be intact. In levels before this Crush is strong enough to take the enemy's life and shields in one cast regardless!

[Enguzrad]

Fixes:

- Crush applies a non-stacking debuff to the target before damage is assigned and until death, reducing it's armor by 50%.

- Crush damage bypasses shields.

Thats great idea! Definitely better than AI damage. I don't know, why I didn't thought that thay can have armor from materials which are not magnetic.

[Archwizard]

Functionally, AP is a horrible idea! Mainly because it doesn't actually serve the function people in this post want it to! Crush always deals it's damage to the body of the target, Corpus and Grineer only take heavy damage from AP to the head. To the body they take varying AP damage, medium Grineer would take 150% damage with all other Grineer/Corpus taking the same as if they had armor ignore. The real problem comes from the infested. Ancients taking the full damage, but everything else being reduced by 50%. Making Mag's Crush AP gimps her more than it helps. If you want to go that route, please just ask for armor ignore!

If you want to do something cool, devise a damage type specifically for her and future content [like Crush damage]. I see it as a utility oriented skill more than a damage one. I would personally make her the CC portion of it longer [scalable] before adding damage to it, along with allowing anything that walked in pre-damage to be caught. I don't feel like people who love mag choose Mag to get kills, so much as be a good interesting support to play for their team.

In the case you do want damage though, why not just have her do the damage she does now and add onto that. Say, x% of the target's missing health as additional damage effectable by focus. This would make her damage scale with levels while making it more of a clean-up/execute tool. There are no frames with execute components yet, which would make her very unique. I will warn one thing though, that kind of damage cannot entirely ignore armor without breaking the game. Percentage based health armor ignoring damage is completely uncounterable from a design aspect without power creep!

 

I've been thinking Armor Ignore/Physics Impact damage would be appropriate for Crush since the beginning (Armor Penetration seems more the forte of Ash). Physics Impact is the same damage type that affects weapons like Fragor- which, logically, would have a very Crush-y feel to them. If you go this route I doubt we'd need to add a new damage type, unless you wanted it to be the same only with the benefit of hurting Infested. Personally I wouldn't mind if Mag was more effective against Grineer, Corpus and Ancients over lesser Infested, as they never had armor to begin with and I doubt crushing their bones would have done much to stop them either; from a gameplay PoV it would also give Crush much more versatility over element-focused classes, while fitting in with the enemy types most affected by her current toolkit in the same way as an element-focused class without needing to recycle concepts within the class coughcoughshieldbypass.

 

An execute mechanic would be neat, but I think that could be saved for a future warframe (like the Berserker or Necro frame people are always muttering about). To me, Mag's abilities have always been more about turning an enemy's advantages against them (Bullet Attractor speaks volumes to that)- CC just happened to be involved in most cases. Crush has always been a damage ability in my mind, with CC-strings attached; Mag's description, as stated in the OP, has always made the damage seem like Crush's biggest asset, as has the description of the ability itself. As for being a mass CC... I think Pull can pull Crush's old weight.

 

Fixes:

- Crush applies a non-stacking debuff to the target before damage is assigned and until death, reducing it's armor by 50%.

- Crush damage bypasses shields.

 

If not an ability that increases based on armor, I'd be able to live with an ability that deals an amount of Physics Impact damage and places a debuff to reduce the armor by up to 100% outright (say, for as long as Blessing's immunity would last). Due to the logarithmic nature of Armor's mitigation, only a higher reduction would harm heavily-armored targets vastly more than lighter ones, while also giving it a unique utility and niche; having it reduce armor by 50% would only increase damage by about 10% against non-Infested enemies. 

 

Forgive me if I still believe that anything involving shields or the bypassing thereoff is better left to Shield Polarize though, but that Shield Polarize should gain the benefit of blocking shield regeneration and perhaps having 100% shield damage at cap to boost its own utility. Besides, the armor portion only affects the target's health; Crush would do more than enough attacking armor.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Archwizard

[Enguzrad]

Well Crush probably should bypass the shields. It magnetizes bones.
And I agree that shield polarize should temporarily stop shield regeneration, because right now you just drop their shields by 50% and they immediately starts to regenerate. Somehow improving regeneration of warframe's shield would be great too, otherwise you just bost your shield and when you finish casting animation it's gone again.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Enguzrad

[Archwizard]

Well Crush probably should bypass the shields. It magnetizes bones.

I still think it's a bit much, but I suppose it's still more thematic than its current state.

[GTG3000]

Well, it's a problem with overall game balance rather than just one ability.

[Archwizard]

Well, it's a problem with overall game balance rather than just one ability.

True, but the one ability has a number of disadvantages regardless. Recent balance alterations have just made these disadvantages plainly obvious.

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

perhaps if crush ignores armor and/or deals opponents armor value as extra damage it would be more useful?

 

This would make it quite an insidious skill, on lower levels, it would still kill most enemies, but on higher difficulty, it would shape-shift into a debuff as the damage would be negligable. Then again, repeated applications of crush would still do heaps of damage as you'd damage the enemies armor rating each time.

[Archwizard]

This would make it quite an insidious skill, on lower levels, it would still kill most enemies, but on higher difficulty, it would shape-shift into a debuff as the damage would be negligable. Then again, repeated applications of crush would still do heaps of damage as you'd damage the enemies armor rating each time.

 

Not sure which part of the post you quoted refers to your idea of the debuff...

[MuhhhhKuh]

I like your explanations, but i think that the cast time would be no problem if that what you get would be strong enough,

also i don't realy want only another dmg skill, it should give you some more, maybe some decent dmg (or high damage and rise the duration of the animation a bit), and maybe a strong debuff for enemies, for example remove enemy armor (maybe all or if it is to much for at least 80% or similar.)

Make it more unique, not only convert dmg to AP and thats it...

[MuhhhhKuh]

Indeed. 

 

In this thread, OP, besides everything else you should have red already, posted a table, with the armour values in it. I don't know where he got it, but if crush woul be doing exactly that damage as AP, it would be very feasible.

 

and this would become OP...

[ObsidianStray]

After reading through this thread, I have to say my favorite idea is to lower the base damage, but then have the damage increase based on each enemy's individual armor rating. It's very thematic, and that's cool. She could kill ancients and heavily armored Grineer while doing very little damage to the more common enemies. With regard to the cast time and being KS'd, it wouldn't matter. This version of Mag is after the big boys that no one else can take down so easily. Leave the trash mobs to the trash frames. :P

 

I don't think she should be invulnerable though; instead, enemies should *slowly* gravitate towards her (nothing like pull or vortex), and anything entering the damage radius during the cast time should be hit when the ability finishes. This would make the current short range a balancing aspect of the ability rather than a crippling one. (To clarify, the gravity range would have a wider radius than the damage range, meaning some enemies might be pulled near enough in time, while others would not.) Enemies could attempt to resist this pull, effectively CCing them as they cease fire, and allowing them a chance to escape damage. (You may say this is terrible because she'll just pull a toxic on herself, but I think the mag who thoughtlessly uses crush near enough for that to happen deserves what she gets. Making the game mindless will only ruin it.)

 

I don't feel that any CC is needed after the ability has ended and damage has been dealt.

 

Mag was my first frame, and it made me sad to admit she sucks. Why crush when you can stomp? But I still have here there, and I even formatted her aura slot in wait for the day when I'll play her again.

 

Edit: My boyfriend notes that it would be way cool if Mag were invulnerable to bullets (not lazorz), which would hit an invisible sphere around her, collecting there, and then falling harmlessly to the floor when the ability finishes. I have to agree with the badassery here.

Edited August 14, 2013 by ObsidianStray

[JerichoFayne]

I don't disagree with the OP, but you could just as easily cutcopypasta any of the frames in there & reference their Ultimates...or half of their other abilities.

 

Bottom line here is that a shift needs to be made to make upper tier powers more about status effect or player buffing effect than direct damage, so that they carry through & remain viable in higher levels, where only OMFGOptimized weapons will get the job done.

[Archwizard]

I don't disagree with the OP, but you could just as easily cutcopypasta any of the frames in there & reference their Ultimates...or half of their other abilities.

 

Yes, I know every ultimate ability is supposed to have its strengths and its weaknesses which carve out its own niche, and with non-damaging abilities it's comparing apples to oranges, but Crush was basically the min-maxing damage ultimate, stacking a bunch of the weaknesses above for a short stagger and a lot of damage spread over a... livable range, properly modified.

 

[...] It's not just that the inability to ignore armor makes Crush weak; it's that it means Crush thematically makes no sense. We've all thought of it when reading the description for the ability, or when watching the animation play out: You're forcing an enemy to collapse in upon themself by magnetizing their bones, crumbling them up like a ball of tin foil.

 

How in the Hek does armor mitigate that?

 

[...] and [Crush] is probably one of the weakest ultimates out there now (if not, dare I say it, the weakest).

 

"Any of the frames" tend to have at least some bonuses to their ultimates- temporary invulnerability, mobile damage, armor-ignore or elemental-weakness exploitation, high range/long duration crowd control, group benefits like healing or bonus damage... The list goes on.

 

What advantage does Crush have, precisely?

Edited August 14, 2013 by Archwizard

[GTG3000]

"Any of the frames" tend to have at least some bonuses to their ultimates- temporary invulnerability, mobile damage, armor-ignore or elemental-weakness exploitation, high range/long duration crowd control, group benefits like healing or bonus damage... The list goes on.

 

What advantage does Crush have, precisely?

 

Well, it makes you feel like Hulk.

 

 

and this would become OP...

 

Yeah, unless, you know, DE will find some way to make non-AP viable. And it wouldn't really be op until you reach REALLY high-level content.