"loot box investigation" and mod packs

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

If you have not heard about the EA lootbox thing, some places are starting to investigate it as a form of gambling (https://www.pcgamesn.com/star-wars-battlefront-2/battlefront-2-loot-box-gambling-belgium-gaming-commission). i think a few other EU palces are looking into it right now as well, and it means EA could be fined, given restrictions, or have the game banned from sale in some areas.

Now, I know that Warframes system is much much better then that sort of thing, however do you think this could effect some of DEs business models?

The main thing that comes to mind is Mod packs (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Mod_Pack), and to some extent riven mods although that probably would not be considered due to not being able to buy a riven roll (yet). The mod packs however do impact gameplay directly and are a "game of chance" past that of a drop system. they can be bought and sold and thus also have attached value, with some chances at getting rare mods that will sell for more. 

If legislation is passed on the EA thing, then DE could be fined or face an outright ban in different parts of the world. I know we have tenno from all over, so what do you think could be done to make sure that wont happen. Its best to think of these things far in advance and have a plan of action rather then be hit by it so I figured id bring it up.

I hate payed to win loot box systems but I dont want to see DE (or DE investors) get stepped on because of new legislation that changes the definition of the game or the way the game is "sold" due to a minor system in it.

I would also like to point out that China considered gambling illegal, so it might impact DEs branch there more then the US, as in it could be outright banned. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling_in_China)

 

EDIT- should clarify that it probibly wont be a direct issue but more one of working and law. if it falls into a new legislation for fines or otherwise, it could effect the game because a lawyer can argue it. if the gov can tax something, they probably will.

EDIT2- this might also apply to relic packs. and yes, we are not trading money directly for both pack types, but it still might fall into a grey area in legislation for it.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Fluff-E-Kitty

[Shifted]

I think DE could just get rid of them, just to be safe and avoid any "controversy".

I really doubt many people buy those.

PS
Also, bonus free PR

Edited November 16, 2017 by Shifted

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

Just now, Shifted said:

I think DE could just get rid of them, just to be safe and avoid any "controversy".

I really doubt many people buy those.

I agree, but its the fact that it exists as a game mechanic. things like Spirle Knights and Vindictus are going to have a shock to there system if the US changes the loot box definition, and it would proibly ruin there revinue streams. Warframe proibly wont be too effected by cuting out the modpacks, but they might make some money off it from the few people that do use it, and use it offten (that may also be the main argument agenst it as it encorages a gambaler to keep doing it)

[Fishyflakes]

They're mostly used as "gifts" for events and giveaways.

Nothing wrong with them really, since you can trade for literally any mod they drop.

Edit: What are your thoughts on Transmutation? I use it all the time to get some nice mods. Does that count as a loot box?

Edited November 16, 2017 by Fishyflakes

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

Just now, Fishyflakes said:

They're mostly used as "gifts" for events and giveaways.

Nothing wrong with them really, since you can trade for literally any mod they drop.

As gifts and stuff they are fine, but its the fact that you can buy them that might get them into hot water.

Even relics are kind of a grey area for this argument. its comes down to the legal language used in the final ruling. if a fine can be applyed it probibly will be is what I usualy assume.

[Xaranoth]

6 minutes ago, Fishyflakes said:

They're mostly used as "gifts" for events and giveaways.

Nothing wrong with them really, since you can trade for literally any mod they drop.

Edit: What are your thoughts on Transmutation? I use it all the time to get some nice mods. Does that count as a loot box?

Afaik loot boxes are packs of randomized items which are bought either directly for real-world money, or through only one step removed with the game’s premium currency (platinum in the case of warframe, silver in the case of destiny 2, etc). So the mod packs and relic packs in the market (but not the relic packs in the syndicates) fall into the “loot box” category, since they’re premium-purchased packs of unknown randomized items that directly affect gameplay (ie not cosmetic)

Edit: forgot to directly answer the question lol. So hopefully the above explains why the transmutation system isn’t a loot box, same with riven rolling. You’re not directly buying a transmutation or riven roll with the premium currency, platinum.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Xaranoth

[Fishyflakes]

Just now, Xaranoth said:

Afaik loot boxes are packs of randomized items which are bought either directly for real-world money, or through only one step removed with the game’s premium currency (platinum in the case of warframe, silver in the case of destiny 2, etc). So the mod packs and relic packs in the market (but not the relic packs in the syndicates) fall into the “loot box” category, since they’re premium-purchased packs of unknown randomized items that directly affect gameplay (ie not cosmetic)

You can buy Relic Packs with platinum too holy S#&$ DE's screwed

[SnuggleBuckets]

All of those mod packs seem like such a trivial little side part of the game, I think DE could just remove them to be safe without affecting their revenue or anything.
But relic packs, that's more problematic, I completely forgot that you can buy those with platinum as well.

[Raynalle]

sortie bounty and such like that is a loot bow without the box, and thinking how much money people (spoiled kids) who don't know how to market well... is better remove those crap for the wellness of everyone.

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

24 минуты назад, Fluff-E-Kitty сказал:

Now, I know that Warframes system is much much better then that sort of thing, however do you think this could effect some of DEs business models?

[o.0-]

Items bought for plat would be the items for consideration, in terms of the legalese, I presume after reading that article.

So for Warframe, that hopefully seems to only be limited to mod packs. The easiest is to just have them available from the Syndicates, with no Plat buy option.

[Lyravain]

It's an incorrect conclusion; the mods from mod packs are EASILY acquired in-game, without significant expenditures of resources. You do not receive them levelled or enhanced in any way. Nor are they uniquely acquired through random 'lootbox' chance.

[Xaranoth]

2 minutes ago, Lyravain said:

It's an incorrect conclusion; the mods from mod packs are EASILY acquired in-game, without significant expenditures of resources. You do not receive them levelled or enhanced in any way. Nor are they uniquely acquired through random 'lootbox' chance.

Good point of distinction between warframe and some other games. Either way, I wouldn’t imagine warframe would be in serious trouble even if those laws go through.

[Giantconch]

Removing modpacks is something DE should do anyhow, regardless of any investigations into EA or their horrible SW:BFea business model. The modpacks are a joke. The mods that come from them can be easily obtained through simply playing the game rather than "Rolling the dice" and dumping plat into the packs.

 

As for relics...

 

Has anyone EVER bought relic packs for plat? If they have, lol on them. Excavations, syndicate relic packs, all far superior to spending plat on relics. Survival, Spy, Interception, all will yield at least some relics

 

DE definitely could do away with these potential problems with modpacks and relic packs, but keep in mind the situation with WF and with SW:BFea is totally different. In SW:BFea you need to grind out 20 matches (if the information I have on the game is accurate) before you earn enough in game currency to be able to purchase a single one of their lootboxes, or spend real world currency to get the boxes. A system clearly designed to frustrate people with the grindwall and convince them its better to swipe the card and buy the boxes.

 

In WF, running a single excavation will net you 4-12 relics easily, and on top of the relics you'll end up with dozens of mods, with the incentive going the other way, pushing people to never spend real money on plat to get relic packs or mod packs, and instead simply play the game to get what they want. It's totally free and in all but a few cases where RNG simply hates some users, its not even going to take too long to pull off.

 

To put it in more simple terms, SW:BFea pushes you to spend $ on their boxes with little to no alternative to get what is in those boxes, but WF pushes you to just play the game with anything available in those mod/relic packs being easily obtainable through playing.

 

Beyond that, SW:BFea also has an up-front price tag, where WF is free to play. Last I heard, SW:BFea also does not have a player trading system (please correct me if I am wrong here but I haven't heard anything about it if it does exist) and WF DOES have a player trading system, allowing for people to never spend money on plat, but still have the ability to obtain it through selling items they obtain through playing the game to users who might be more financially well off who can spend money on the game to skip certain grinds.

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

9 minutes ago, giantconch said:

Removing modpacks is something DE should do anyhow, regardless of any investigations into EA or their horrible SW:BFea business model. The modpacks are a joke. The mods that come from them can be easily obtained through simply playing the game rather than "Rolling the dice" and dumping plat into the packs.

 

As for relics...

 

Has anyone EVER bought relic packs for plat? If they have, lol on them. Excavations, syndicate relic packs, all far superior to spending plat on relics. Survival, Spy, Interception, all will yield at least some relics

 

DE definitely could do away with these potential problems with modpacks and relic packs, but keep in mind the situation with WF and with SW:BFea is totally different. In SW:BFea you need to grind out 20 matches (if the information I have on the game is accurate) before you earn enough in game currency to be able to purchase a single one of their lootboxes, or spend real world currency to get the boxes. A system clearly designed to frustrate people with the grindwall and convince them its better to swipe the card and buy the boxes.

 

In WF, running a single excavation will net you 4-12 relics easily, and on top of the relics you'll end up with dozens of mods, with the incentive going the other way, pushing people to never spend real money on plat to get relic packs or mod packs, and instead simply play the game to get what they want. It's totally free and in all but a few cases where RNG simply hates some users, its not even going to take too long to pull off.

 

To put it in more simple terms, SW:BFea pushes you to spend $ on their boxes with little to no alternative to get what is in those boxes, but WF pushes you to just play the game with anything available in those mod/relic packs being easily obtainable through playing.

 

Beyond that, SW:BFea also has an up-front price tag, where WF is free to play. Last I heard, SW:BFea also does not have a player trading system (please correct me if I am wrong here but I haven't heard anything about it if it does exist) and WF DOES have a player trading system, allowing for people to never spend money on plat, but still have the ability to obtain it through selling items they obtain through playing the game to users who might be more financially well off who can spend money on the game to skip certain grinds.

I agree. it is very different to EAs crap, but I also know that if the government stands to make money off a technically, its going to reap what it can from them. 

 

[o.0-]

12 minutes ago, Lyravain said:

It's an incorrect conclusion; the mods from mod packs are EASILY acquired in-game, without significant expenditures of resources. You do not receive them levelled or enhanced in any way. Nor are they uniquely acquired through random 'lootbox' chance.

 

I want to agree with you, however the decision is up to the commission and how they categorize things. And they seem to already have a strong bias in relation to gameplay and micro-transactions:

Quote

if your ability to succeed in the game is dependent on random outcomes - in this case, the contents of loot boxes - then the commission will have to consider it a game of chance.

The fact that it was publicly stated, it's gonna be interesting to read what the final say is gonna be on this matter.

And as I've seen in other issues in other areas of life, if a government can find a way to squeeze out taxes, fines or what have you, they're gonna darn well give it, the good old college try, dadgum it.

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

18 minutes ago, Lyravain said:

It's an incorrect conclusion; the mods from mod packs are EASILY acquired in-game, without significant expenditures of resources. You do not receive them levelled or enhanced in any way. Nor are they uniquely acquired through random 'lootbox' chance.

True. I think however it would depend on the wording of legislation passed. law is... a bit odd about that and the devil is in the details.

[Numerikuu]

Question........................ Who the hell actually buys those mod packs when you can easily get those mods in game, or just straight out buy the ones you want with platinum...?

Edited November 16, 2017 by Numerikuu

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

Just now, Numerikuu said:

Question........................ Who the hell actually buys those mod packs, when you can easily get those mods in game, or just straight out by the ones you want with platinum...?

I honestly do not know, but someone must if they keep it around.

I think its more if its a few people who buy them a lot kinda thing that it might be an isshue.

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

29 minutes ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

7 минут назад, Fluff-E-Kitty сказал:

My face is tired XD

[Arniox]

2 hours ago, Fluff-E-Kitty said:

As gifts and stuff they are fine, but its the fact that you can buy them that might get them into hot water.

Even relics are kind of a grey area for this argument. its comes down to the legal language used in the final ruling. if a fine can be applyed it probibly will be is what I usualy assume.

No I would say that warframe is fine. The mod packs are probably the one and only thing that might get flagged, but everything else is fine. 

Warframe is specifically a grinding game. You can get and own everything in his entire game if you grind hard enough. Warframe does not have a pay go win or a pay to gamble system. It's simply pay to go faster or pay to skip the grind.

There are many, many, many other games out there that have the grinding model and are completely fine. Even in China, where gambling is illegal, there are so many games that use the super grind model. So warframe is by far fine and out of the line of fire 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Arniox

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

3 hours ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

My face is tired XD

 

[cenat_cenat_alternate]

this post is way off. Wayyyy off. 

To put it simply you NEED lootboxes in star wars battlefront

you don't need mod packs to play the game and you can get the mods just as easily. 

Might as well blame literally every game using rng

[-Trey-]

Nobody buys mod packs anyway.

Rivens are form of gambling, but you are just gambling your time.

Edited November 17, 2017 by -Trey-