So About That Armor Scaling Thing..idea Inside V

[Zeke01234]

So why don't the metal auger type mods ignore armor at 10% increments as you level them ? 60% at level 6 would be worth the mod slot and might allow us to use our favorite weapons at endgame....thoughts on Adding armor ignore to those mods ??

[CapricaSix]

Or instead.. they could make a new combo mod, the ones you get from nightmare missions. 3 levels, "%15-20 Armour Piercing, %5 Puncture" per level. How does that sound?

 

They could call it... Gauss or Coil.

Edited July 29, 2013 by CapricaSix

[Zeke01234]

Anything sounds good to me...I just want to use my favorite weapons instead of always taking boltor despair Ogris.

[Leno]

Anything sounds good to me...I just want to use my favorite weapons instead of always taking boltor despair Ogris.

or flux**

[Davoodoo]

Anything sounds good to me...I just want to use my favorite weapons instead of always taking boltor despair Ogris.

 

Be like me, forma your braton 5 times and still do over 50% dmg on t3 def...

[Zeke01234]

If/when I get the prime ill be doing that ;).

[Eirshy]

Be like me, forma your braton 5 times and still do over 50% dmg on t3 def...

> implying damage % isn't still glitched

 

> implying a similarly-modded Boltor (innate AI) or Dera (much higher accuracy) wouldn't deal more damage than your Braton on T3 defense (at least on waves 11-20, if not earlier)

 

If/when I get the prime ill be doing that ;).

 

> implying a similarly-modded Boltor (innate AI) or Dera (much higher accuracy) wouldn't deal more damage than your Braton Prime on T3 defense (at least on waves 11-20, if not earlier)

[Zeke01234]

> implying damage % isn't still glitched

> implying a similarly-modded Boltor (innate AI) or Dera (much higher accuracy) wouldn't deal more damage than your Braton on T3 defense (at least on waves 11-20, if not earlier)

> implying a similarly-modded Boltor (innate AI) or Dera (much higher accuracy) wouldn't deal more damage than your Braton Prime on T3 defense (at least on waves 11-20, if not earlier)

not implying anything...it sucks that I'll have to 5x forma and still not be as good but at least I can take out my favorite gun and not feel like I'm handicapping the team....I do think all guns should be fairly viable at end game just suit different styles IE Vipers for burst oggie for AOE Braton for sustained DPS....right now it's down to 4/5 guns that you can use without going forma crazy...and if you Do go forma crazy the gun should ROCK not just be "ok" or "pretty good". Edited July 31, 2013 by Zeke01234

[Davoodoo]

not implying anything...it sucks that I'll have to 5x forma and still not be as good but at least I can take out my favorite gun and not feel like I'm handicapping the team....I do think all guns should be fairly viable at end game just suit different styles IE Vipers for burst oggie for AOE Braton for sustained DPS....right now it's down to 4/5 guns that you can use without going forma crazy...and if you Do go forma crazy the gun should ROCK not just be "ok" or "pretty good".

Made good braton without any forma but by putting 8 mods i made it better... Same goes for any weapon, if you like the gun why not put forma on it, its not like boltor with only serration will do any dps.

And i guarantee that 5 forma braton standard or prime will beat boltor without any forma, while same 5 forma boltor will do barely more dps.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Davoodoo

[Zeke01234]

So you say....what I do know is vs level 40 enemies I can use my maxed twin vipers and despair and barely be able to tell the difference a few forma later vs level 90+ and my twins are garbage but the despairs are still money..2 more forma and maybe I start getting closer but they still won't match the performance.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Zeke01234

[AfroGamerNinja]

Or go take a shotgun and farm Accelerated Blast and Flechette.

[Eirshy]

not implying anything...it sucks that I'll have to 5x forma and still not be as good but at least I can take out my favorite gun and not feel like I'm handicapping the team....I do think all guns should be fairly viable at end game just suit different styles IE Vipers for burst oggie for AOE Braton for sustained DPS....right now it's down to 4/5 guns that you can use without going forma crazy...and if you Do go forma crazy the gun should ROCK not just be "ok" or "pretty good".

 

Yeah never meant to say that it shouldn't be viable, just saying that high accuracy and innate armor ignore massively trump mods at the current moment.

 

Misread your post as being a standard Braton Fanboi post (Davoodoo's reply is that, I'll sink my teeth into him in a moment). I appologize for that.

 

Made good braton without any forma but by putting 8 mods i made it better... Same goes for any weapon, if you like the gun why not put forma on it, its not like boltor with only serration will do any dps.

And i guarantee that 5 forma braton standard or prime will beat boltor without any forma, while same 5 forma boltor will do barely more dps.

 

Alright then let's run some math, shall we?

 

Lemme find my spreadsheet that does this all for me...

 

Ah, here it is.

I added a line for the Braton Prime.

 

Shooting 400 armor and shooting 900 armor, the Boltor beats the Braton and the Braton Prime in full cycle DPS (including reloads). This is most accurate against Heavy Grineer Gunners, as they apply armor to all parts of their body. However, this is also the best "general case" shooting against the body of something chart.

 

 

Medium Grineer have a 1.5x amp to AP, but also apply armor everywhere. Here's a chart for vs them.

 

As you can see, the Braton Prime *just barely* loses to the Boltor in terms of full cycle dps against medium grineer as well.

 

 

"But Headshots"

> Implying the boltor can't do them as well- though they do boost the Braton's damage more (on non-grineer) by allowing it to get around armor.

> Implying the Braton's accurate enough to go full auto and land every single shot in the target's weakpoint (you're funny).

> Implying Sonar can't be added to give the Boltor a HUGE damage amp compared to your precious Braton's headshots while the boltor is doing *body shots*

 

 

So you say....what I do know is vs level 40 enemies I can use my maxed twin vipers and despair and barely be able to tell the difference a few forma later vs level 90+ and my twins are garbage but the despairs are still money..2 more forma and maybe I start getting closer but they still won't match the performance.

 

Basically. If you mod it right you can still probably kill the lv9x in one clip (well, *technically* two, since it's a double weapon) of your vipers, but over all, despair is better actual dps.

 

And a note, Forma itself doesn't add any power. Most secondaries can be completely pimped out with 3-4 polarities. Due to Split Chamber costing 15 instead of BD's 11, Primaries tend to require 5 polarities.

 

 

And a suggestion for building your vipers....

 

Serration, Barrel Diffusion, No Return, Deep Freeze, Pistol Gambit, Target Cracker.

 

Remaining 2 slots are for whatever you want, I use Trick Mag and Convulsion usually (moas and osprey don't apply armor, both take x2 from electric), swapping Convulsion for... the fire one vs only Infested.

 

Potato plus 2x V 1x - let me max all of the mods on them.

 

 

Even though Despair and Acrid both out-damage my twins by a mile, I prefer my twins. Much more fun to use.

Edited July 31, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[Davoodoo]

According to formula on wiki lvl6 medium grineer would have 1200 armor(lvl 101 medium grineer would have 3k armor, yet i dont see 1dmg popping everywhere on t3 def), not to mention that most ppl already know that it doesnt follow linear scaling.400 armor is 80% dmg reduction from regular bullets and from my experience it is accurate for 130lvl corrupted boxhead(uses medium grineer resistances), according to your spreadsheet difference is minimal.

900 armor would mean 90% dmg reduction which is most accurate for 130lvl ancient and in there i agree any ai weapon will win but you wont meet as many of these that it would make any serious difference.

And im implying that 1) braton bullets cannot be dodged 2) up to 20m braton is accurate enough to fire on full auto into heavy gunner head without any miss 3) even with sonar i would rather bet on braton on putting bullets there than on boltor.

Boltor becomes inaccurate against moving targets at around 25m while braton can still hit reliably at 40m

Your spreadsheet didnt take speed trigger into account which would raise braton dps a bit higher. On other hand you have taken mag size which favors boltor high clip size.

Dont believe in everything on wiki.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Davoodoo

[litlit]

There's no way around it, Davoodoo. Weapons with armor ignore are simply better than weapons without. It sucks, I know. People have been telling DE about this problem for a really long time now, and it's something that should have been immediately obvious to basic QA. But I guess DE doesn't care about balance.

[Eirshy]

... I didn't believe anything on the wiki. If I had believed the old tables on the wiki, I'd have said everything was >immune< to non-bypassing damage by level 70, rather than at something like 900 armor. I was off, however, as the last time I did this did the checks I didn't have the base armor for all enemies. Now I do, and I implemented part of that into a MASSIVELY updated version of that spreadsheet.

 

 

Lancers are at 951 armor (~90% DR) at level 70. Ancients are at 1336 armor (~93% DR) at level 70.

Heavy Gunners, on the other hand, are at 212 armor at level 70.

 

 

Scaling up for T3 Defense to Level 100's...

Lancers are at 1444 armor (~94% DR) with no way to bypass it other than innately

Ancients are at 2062 armor (~95% DR)

Heavy Gunners are only at 331 armor.

 

 

So let's look at that lv 100 comparison using a much more accurate spreadsheet (what I basically worked on setting up most of today, interestingly enough; same linke)...

The level 93 bit is because HG's have a Level Adjustment of 8, but the lowest level adjustment at 50 base armor is 1. As such, a lv93 Grineer Seeker has the same armor as a level 95 Grineer Commander, lv 96 Grineer Bombard, lv 98 Grineer Napalm, lv100 Grineer Heavy Gunner, and a lv107 Corpus Tech.

Ancient Healers and Disruptors, however, both have an LA of 5 (toxics 10), and Ancients are the only things with 300 base armor, so their SAV is already set for an LA of 5.

 

I gave each of them 5 mods (r8 Serration, maxed Split Chamber, maxed Cryo Rounds, maxed Piercing Hit, maxed Speed Trigger), and then gave both the Braton and the Braton Prime a maxed Wildfire.

 

The results were hilariously very similar to the older, outdated sheet.

 

Braton Prime barely edges out the Boltor against lv100 Heavy Gunners (who have relatively low armor; Corpus Crewmen have less, btw, at 181 at lv100), but only via fire rate, and not per-bullet.

 

Braton AND Braton Prime get *demolished* against lv100 Medium Grineer and Infested Ancients.

 

And this was with BOTH of them getting one more mod than the boltor in the comparison. Giving Wildfire to the Boltor as well, and it suddenly is 173 Full Cycle DPS (the Saturate column) higher.

 

 

 

And your idea that you can fire at 20-25m out into a heavy gunner's head at full auto and not miss is abject bullS#&$. I would hit 1-2 body hits on 3-4 round bursts closer to 15m out just when I was leveling the damn thing. The Boltor on the other hand can aim center mass and not lose any damage output.

 

And the whole Hitscan vs Projectile thing... I don't think I've ever missed Hitscan when playing Borderlands 2. I only miss Hitscan going from my Snidal to my Lanka when I'm trying to do zipline and leaping shots. And I definitely don't miss hitscan when it comes to my Boltor over the Braton (as the Boltor actually gets to be an Assault Rifle) or my Dera over the Braton (as the Dera is perfectly accurate). Leading targets is easy. You must just suck at it.

Edited August 1, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[Davoodoo]

There's no way around it, Davoodoo. Weapons with armor ignore are simply better than weapons without. It sucks, I know. People have been telling DE about this problem for a really long time now, and it's something that should have been immediately obvious to basic QA. But I guess DE doesn't care about balance.

If they remove armor scaling and leave it at base amount you would end up with bunch of op weapons (latron can hit over 600 on such enemies), so they would need to either nerf weapons(i would love to see these complaints) or raise hp to match current ehp so you will see big numbers but it will still take some time to kill enemies. Its not as simple as remove armor scaling and everything will great.

[Davoodoo]

... I didn't believe anything on the wiki. If I had believed the old tables on the wiki, I'd have said everything was >immune< to non-bypassing damage by level 70, rather than at something like 900 armor.

 

Lancers are at 951 armor (~90% DR) at level 70. Ancients are at 1336 armor (~93% DR) at level 70.

Heavy Gunners, on the other hand, are at 212 armor at level 70.

 

Scaling up for T3 Defense to Level 100's...

Lancers are at 1444 armor (~94% DR) with no way to bypass it other than innately

Ancients are at 2062 armor (~95% DR)

Heavy Gunners are only at 331 armor.

Braton with only + damage mod maxed would do 53 bullet dmg, against 130lvl corrupted boxheads 10 dmg 130lvl corrupted lancers 16 130lvl ancients 4 130lvl heavy gunner 12.

On other hand 70lvl grineer lancers die from 2-4 bullets from full modded braton so its not 90% reduction unless they have 210hp total.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Davoodoo

[Hameln]

So to sum up:

+ Make puncture penetrate Armor, Normal Damage=> true damage .

+ Make some enemies highly resist to Elemental but not normal armor(accient?), and some in opposite way (corpus) .

+ Make a new kind of enemíes with extremely high in heath but no armor 

 

Stop with those number, ain't nobody reading it

Edited August 1, 2013 by Hameln

[KIREEK]

 

 

> implying a similarly-modded Boltor (innate AI) or Dera (much higher accuracy) wouldn't deal more damage than your Braton Prime on T3 defense (at least on waves 11-20, if not earlier)

 

Did the calc on a heavy gunner at lvl 100 (assuming it's similar to the one in the void)

 

Do not forget branton fires faster, if the damage is a bit lower then it compenssates overtime, this will happen eventually somewhere beetween lvl 1 to 100

 

On the head, no reasons to complain really, you have faster fire rate and higher damage

 

Boltor

Body 101 damage

Head 331 damage

 

Branton

Body 65 damage

Head 362 damage

 

Feel free to try it

http://www.kongregate.com/games/TwistedThanh/warframe-statcalc-weapons

 

Fire in bursts

Other weapon types can actually complain, shotguns and weapons like twin vipers rely heavilly on the head. Still make no mistake, at high levels (which cover a smal portion of the game and only in defense) i end up going close to enemies to kill them with my akbolto, i know i can still do damage to the body, but weak spots can deal like 3x more damage.

It's imperative to hit weak spots on normal damage weapons, altough i know that's not always easy to do.

Edited August 1, 2013 by KIREEKPSO

[101blubb]

So to sum up:

+ Make puncture penetrate Armor, Normal Damage=> true damage .

+ Make some enemies highly resist to Elemental but not normal armor(accient?), and some in opposite way (corpus) .

+ Make a new kind of enemíes with extremely high in heath but no armor

 

Just get rid of resistance-scaling - it's utter horseS#&amp;&#036; anyway - and think of other ways to make me use a 15-points-garbage mod

Stop with those number, ain't nobody reading it

 

I for one prefer mathematic evidence over some awkwardly worded mumbojumbo, please speak only for yourself.

[Hameln]

 

 

I for one prefer mathematic evidence over some awkwardly worded mumbojumbo, please speak only for yourself.

Dude, for what end now? 2 another guy read that, and start with more number, just for to you read.

Forum's been made for that kind of stuff, or  was that Skype?

Edited August 1, 2013 by Hameln

[101blubb]

Dude, for what end now? 2 another guy read that, and start with more number, just for to you read.

Forum's been made for that kind of stuff, or  was that Skype?

 

You may always skip whatever you don't intend on reading. Forums are made for discussions. Those WILL include mathematical arguments in the case of the matter at hand.

Edited August 1, 2013 by 101blubb

[HAR1MAU]

Armor scaling is definetly broken right now,
''i like this gun if it only had armor ignore'' ect.
we all have come across this in some form and DE needs to fix it.
armor piercing/ignoring weapons and mods should bee kinda like a perk and not a ''must have'' on EVERY SINGLE MISSION.

[Dasmir]

Armor scaling is definetly broken right now,

''i like this gun if it only had armor ignore'' ect.

we all have come across this in some form and DE needs to fix it.

armor piercing/ignoring weapons and mods should bee kinda like a perk and not a ''must have'' on EVERY SINGLE MISSION.

 

+1 why i need a must mod to be effective in every mission ? we already have multi-shot and flat bonus damage for that.

[taiiat]

yawn, yet another thread talking about the same exact things with enemy scaling issues. 

 

with the same arguements, the same weapon discussions, the same math(not saying it's wrong, just not anything new), and ultimately, the same result. 

 

yes, everyone knows it's an issue. but making 25 threads a week doesn't get it fixed faster. 

 

however, i do TowerIII defense with other weapons than what people suggest are the only ones to use, Sobek is still a rampaging beast against enemies of extreme level. that extra damage per pellet cranks up it's Alpha damage immensely. 

Edited August 1, 2013 by taiiat