Mesa.

[Yagamilight123]

1 minute ago, 4thBro said:

It's interesting you find that to be an insult.

It's also interesting you'd want opinions other than your own to be stopped.

Why do you come here?

Only the dump ones . I have no problem with the ones of people with knoledge about the game .

[Hypernaut1]

If Mesa is getting top dps, she's literally just doing her job. She's a dps frame. Trinity is not suppose to be doing more damage than her. You're complaining the Mesa is doing what Mesa was designed to do. 

This isn't a twitch skill game, the skill is in the strategy. You don't skillfully CC a room of enemies, but you decide when and where to use your cc. 

In some missions, Mesa is the ideal tool to use, in others she's not as useful.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[VoxGray]

Or maybe they should just rework Peacemaker so it isn't freaking aimbot. I seriously can't stand how one of my favorite Frames is essentially a glorified sentry turret.

Make Peacemaker an exalted weapon ability. Let Mesa walk (not run!), slide, and roll during its use. Reduce reticule to 25% current size, and remove degradation. Do that, and suddenly Peacemaker is much more engaging to use, while also eliminating the "I'm a turret" playstyle she's devolved to.

Mesa is a gunslinger. She should reward quick, accurate aiming, and constantly be on the move. Everything about her is consistent with this except Peacemaker. Remedy this, and suddenly everything about her is magnitudes better than it is now. Not the least because it'd introduce some modicum of skill to high-end use...

Edited November 18, 2017 by EmissaryOfInfinity

[(PSN)TheMostActual93]

New here! I stopped by this thread to add something. 

Mesa is by far the ugliest frame to watch play. I watch quite a bit of twitch (it's kinda how I got into this game) and I never liked it when the streamer is playing mesa. 

Warframe is already quite visually unappealing when played by someone who isn't good at parkour, and when you add Mesa on top of that, it's just cringy to watch. That being said, if anyone is suggesting a change to mesa that makes her 4 less clunky, then I'm all for it. 

Again, I'm a new player and I haven't even played mesa yet, so take my opinion as you will. 

[Vanille]

Mesa:

• Requires a quest on an advanced planet junction to unlock keys to farm her. It's not newbie-friendly.
• Can't farm her keys nonstop, it's not newbie-friendly to farm.
• It's the only "AoE" dps frame that actually has to aim, while there are several other room cleaners that do her job easier, and sometimes better.
• Has to stand still, just like Banshee for example, except she doesn't CC enemies and is not completely safe, and again, has to aim.
• Scales off secondary weapon and mods. You need a really good weapon with really good mods to make her decent, something I doubt newbies will have access to.
• Has a smaller energy pool and uses more energy than other dps frames even with the same efficiency/duration builds and has to constantly recast to expand LoS.

[(PSN)TertulSee]

5 hours ago, 4thBro said:

I feel like she was supposed to be that frame that had decent enough damage output for the newbies that wanted to shoot enemies but weren't good enough, but not really able to be on par with a skilled end-gamer, who's either using a difficult frame or using superior shooting skills with headshot locks, and constant repositioning and mobility skills, etc.

 

Instead, she's both. She's the newbie frame (excluding how you acquire her without plat) but also the top damage dealer. And she's designed to plant into the ground and spin her camera around, so they gave her Shatter Shield to ensure her survival. She literally just has to hit her buttons, and congratulations. Top damage dealer, and nearly invulnerable. No other frame has to put in as little effort as Mesa does, and yet no other frame can compete with Mesa.

 

I just don't get it.

I think she'd be fine if she just simply did not deal nearly as much damage as she does, and then... possibly also became a little more accessible for said newbies.

I dunno. Am I taking crazy pills here?

Well we have Excalibur that does more. Ash with his panic button. Nova who think she needs skill. Ivara because she’s Ivara. Atlas is one punch no skill needed man. Saryn clears room with absolutely no aim and she scales pretty well. Plus, we have Gara now who is Mesa but better.

Edited November 18, 2017 by (PS4)godlysparta

[IggySnow]

sounds like you just played a game where you didn't get to kill anything because of a mesa and now you're buthurt.

You havent even played with mesa a single time yet you feel inclined to criticize her kit. So IMO all of your arguments are invalid and pointless.

[WhiteCr0w]

5 hours ago, 4thBro said:

If that's your response, then you're not getting a large portion of my points.

Or even playing a large portion of the game.

You'll find a lot of that here.

There exists an echo chamber, where if your observations and opinions don't fit the narrative, prepare to engage in the most petty, least thought out arguments this side of the internet. Don't let it discourage you however; continue to share those opinions, because anything that isn't just another +1 is useful.

On this topic, the people attempting to shoot down your observations are so riddled with inaccuracies and contradictions that it's quite pathetic. You're harming their ego by saying Mesa is a Newbie Friendly Frame, and by suggesting so, you bring the fear of her being changed. Tsk tsk, we can't have that.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

6 hours ago, 4thBro said:

I dunno. Am I taking crazy pills here?

I think you took the whole Pharmacy of crazy pills.

firstly, there is no frame designed specifically for "newer players", Excalibur's description says he is ideal, but an experienced (not necessarily skilled) player can make the most of him as well. each frame has it's own learning curve, some you can get on with and understand easily, and some are more complex to people. Mesa is an easy enough frame to use, but that doesn't say she's aimed at newbies, it says that she isn't gonna require you to remember 8 abilities at once like Equinox does. it's not a bad thing to make a frame easier to play.

also, plenty of frames can compete with Mesa: every other frame that deals damage can compete with Mesa with the right build, and frames that do things Mesa can't, like effective Crowd Control, are better in that regard. every frame has a role, but none of them depend on you to be super experienced, just that you practice with that frame in question.

 

[Hypernaut1]

3 hours ago, EmissaryOfInfinity said:

 

Or maybe they should just rework Peacemaker so it isn't freaking aimbot. I seriously can't stand how one of my favorite Frames is essentially a glorified sentry turret.

Make Peacemaker an exalted weapon ability. Let Mesa walk (not run!), slide, and roll during its use. Reduce reticule to 25% current size, and remove degradation. Do that, and suddenly Peacemaker is much more engaging to use, while also eliminating the "I'm a turret" playstyle she's devolved to.

Mesa is a gunslinger. She should reward quick, accurate aiming, and constantly be on the move. Everything about her is consistent with this except Peacemaker. Remedy this, and suddenly everything about her is magnitudes better than it is now. Not the least because it'd introduce some modicum of skill to high-end use...

how did she become your favorite frame if you hate peacemaker????

[Fishyflakes]

6 hours ago, Eidolon_Slayer said:

She can face-tank the Teralyst...

Chroma.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

8 hours ago, 4thBro said:

I feel like she was supposed to be that frame that had decent enough damage output for the newbies that wanted to shoot enemies but weren't good enough, but not really able to be on par with a skilled end-gamer, who's either using a difficult frame or using superior shooting skills with headshot locks, and constant repositioning and mobility skills, etc.

 

Instead, she's both. She's the newbie frame (excluding how you acquire her without plat) but also the top damage dealer. And she's designed to plant into the ground and spin her camera around, so they gave her Shatter Shield to ensure her survival. She literally just has to hit her buttons, and congratulations. Top damage dealer, and nearly invulnerable. No other frame has to put in as little effort as Mesa does, and yet no other frame can compete with Mesa.

 

I just don't get it.

I think she'd be fine if she just simply did not deal nearly as much damage as she does, and then... possibly also became a little more accessible for said newbies.

I dunno. Am I taking crazy pills here?

Barking up the wrong tree.

If you want that broken "press 1,2,3,4 win" frame that people will try to defend, it's Octavia.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

6 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If Mesa is getting top dps, she's literally just doing her job. She's a dps frame. Trinity is not suppose to be doing more damage than her. You're complaining the Mesa is doing what Mesa was designed to do. 

This isn't a twitch skill game, the skill is in the strategy. You don't skillfully CC a room of enemies, but you decide when and where to use your cc. 

In some missions, Mesa is the ideal tool to use, in others she's not as useful.

Can we PSA ^ this response please?

This is Warframe.  Power-fantasy.

Mag is a skill frame and she only gets love from the most ardent fans.

Edited November 19, 2017 by (PS4)Silverback73

[VoxGray]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

how did she become your favorite frame if you hate peacemaker????

I love her styling and most of her kit, and I'll admit that it feels glorious to mow down a horde of Grineer just by looking at them. But the fact stands that it's startlingly easy to play Mesa well. Improving your use of her mostly comes as a straight gear/resource check, at a certain point...

[dreadgame]

Mesa is the super easy mode you unlock after beating hard mode.

[Cifrer]

All I get from this thread is that it's too easy to get energy for warframes and that leads their abilities to be spammed instead of used tactically when appropriate.

[DarkKosmic]

Why are most people here super butt hurt? That means everyone that is giving criticism then throwing in a childish insult at the end, and the people who agree or made this post rudely replying back. Everyone who is trying to explain why this guy is wrong or right is perfectly fine, everyone else are just salty

[Cifrer]

42 minutes ago, DarkKosmic said:

Why are most people here super butt hurt? That means everyone that is giving criticism then throwing in a childish insult at the end, and the people who agree or made this post rudely replying back. Everyone who is trying to explain why this guy is wrong or right is perfectly fine, everyone else are just salty

Ok, I'll bite.

12 hours ago, 4thBro said:

I feel like she was supposed to be that frame that had decent enough damage output for the newbies that wanted to shoot enemies but weren't good enough, but not really able to be on par with a skilled end-gamer, who's either using a difficult frame or using superior shooting skills with headshot locks, and constant repositioning and mobility skills, etc.

 

Instead, she's both. She's the newbie frame (excluding how you acquire her without plat) but also the top damage dealer. And she's designed to plant into the ground and spin her camera around, so they gave her Shatter Shield to ensure her survival. She literally just has to hit her buttons, and congratulations. Top damage dealer, and nearly invulnerable. No other frame has to put in as little effort as Mesa does, and yet no other frame can compete with Mesa.

This demonstrates that it's simply too easy with Mesa, even with her higher drain, to just pop her ult and wipe everything.  Aside from completely reworking damage in the game or how the ability works, the easy remedy is to reduce how much energy is available.

 

12 hours ago, Tachibana_Hibiki said:

Why Mesa and not, say, Ember? On newbs' part of starchart Ember kills everything with an activation of a single ability, no sitting in place or camera spinning required. 

And past that part of starchart you have other frames nuking stuff out of existence.

Ember is in a lot of the same case excepting perhaps that her drain can be reduced through mods a bit too much.  Unfortunately she doesn't have any weapon to scale off, so she suffers in higher tier content damage wise.

12 hours ago, -Temp0- said:

She's "supposed" to be a dps frame. That's all. The rest is just your own agendas.

And especially since new players won't ever be able to get her. Not only you need special keys but also a group to share them with. A dps frame that is "easy to use" for new players and farm is Ember - not Mesa, she never was.

Ash and Equinox laugh at your Mesa. Ash with fatal teleport can one-shot anything. Mesa begin to struggle against grineer in sorties especially with elemental enchantment. Valkyr and Excal do the exact same thing but at closer range and Saryn can viral proc anything till they vanish out of existence iif given an opportinity. New frame Gara can stack her 2 infinitely and kill anything on touch with it, Nidus does almost the same.

 

Again, energy is simply too easy to attain and thus abilities, instead of being used to enhance the combat power, are being use almost exclusively as the combat power.

12 hours ago, 4thBro said:

To add to your thought and my mixed agreement, every time a Nightmare mission is Energy Drain, I get ragey and think, "so why is there a mode that removes the identity of Warframe itself and now I'm just playing Halo or whatever?"

So yeah, the emphasis on abilities is huge and it SHOULD be. But I do not believe that abilities rob the game of the skill payout of shooting well. They certainly help in making it so that a bad FPS player can excel in this game (along with, honestly, not NEEDING to shoot your guns well), but again... I do feel the PAYOUT for being skilled is still there.

Here we come towards the crux of the problem.

The weapon variety, primary, secondary, and melee, as well as the abilities of the Warframes are what makes up the majority of the game(operator not withstanding).  The idea that without the Warframe abilities the game is just like Halo or whatever is rather silly.  No other game has the same mobility and weaponry.

Unfortunately, it seems as though people want to focus on 1/4 of that and simply focus as much as possible on the Warframe abilities.  As @4thBro says "not NEEDING to shoot your guns as well."  That's a distinct problem with the game at this point.

Admittedly, to certain degrees it's always been something of an issue, but it has become a significant enough of an issue that it's hard to ignore at this point.

Do I think you should have to use everything at your disposal all the time?  Of course not, that would be just as bad as being able to simply use one thing and nothing else.  Both extremes are ridiculous.

The easiest fix would be to reduce the amount of energy available currently.  Note I say the easiest fix, not the best fix.

It would make it though so that people had to think about when and where to use their abilities, kind of like how the game used to be back before there were all these toggle powers and primed flow, primed continuity, etc, etc.

I am fully aware that plenty of people disagree with my point of view on the subject.

[Midrib]

26 minutes ago, DarkKosmic said:

Why are most people here super butt hurt? That means everyone that is giving criticism then throwing in a childish insult at the end, and the people who agree or made this post rudely replying back. Everyone who is trying to explain why this guy is wrong or right is perfectly fine, everyone else are just salty

Because Mesa is a fan favorite and god forbid you suggest any changes for her.

 

Either way the only arguments i'm seeing from people against the OP is, "What about X frame?" and "Mesa isn't as bad as X" which is just deflecting the issue without actually doing anything to fix it, you're essentially pointing fingers for the sake of pointing them. Congratulations, you have pointed out that Ember's WoF is the least interactive ability in the game, something players have known since.....forever. yet that's not what's being discussed here, just because Y is worse doesn't mean that X shouldn't be looked at.

The other argument is what @Hypernaut1 said, which is the closest thing to a real argument, in that she's a DPS frame and that's how damage frames work..they do damage. which I somewhat agree with but i think the issue is how she does that damage not the damage itself, its the Ash Bladestorm situation on how lacking in interactivity Bladestorm worked but sadly the fix to Bladestorm was very bad and just made Ash overall more clunky to use.

Which is the main reason why I would rather Mesa stay this way, I believe she is flawed, but I can't really see a way to make Peacemaker more active without fundamentally changing the ability or potentially making it more clunky like the current Bladestorm. and my other point is that I believe the OP should've played Mesa to at least get a better feeling for her and see that Peacemaker might be more interactive then he thinks, as i've found that staying in it for too long can be a quick way to get 1 shotted in later stages, so you cannot really just stay in PM all game, you have to put a little effort into position and compared to old PM a lot more effort to actually aim the ability.

and the other thing is what @WhiteCr0w said which is unfortunately spot on, just merely suggesting a change results in insults and garbage arguments and people deflecting the problem till it makes you sick of even discussing it, and its honestly saddening

 

 

[WhiteCr0w]

23 hours ago, Midrib said:

and the other thing is what @WhiteCr0w said which is unfortunately spot on, just merely suggesting a change results in insults and garbage arguments and people deflecting the problem till it makes you sick of even discussing it, and its honestly saddening

Thanks. They're few and far between, but it's good to know there's at least a small number of reasonable people here.

[cataclysmic8gladiator]

On 11/19/2017 at 1:58 AM, HerpDerpy said:

sounds like you just played a game where you didn't get to kill anything because of a mesa and now you're buthurt.

You havent even played with mesa a single time yet you feel inclined to criticize her kit. So IMO all of your arguments are invalid and pointless.

 

THIS is the best possible reaction to the butthurt talks so far! thank you!

i may not be the ultimate mesa main player,but  i gotta say that mesa needs love. instead of being nagged about for being the ultimate killer.  [saryn & equinox & ember laughing in the back]

Edited November 20, 2017 by cataclysmic8gladiator

[4thBro]

Why are people calling me butthurt about Mesa killing enemies for me, or think that I'm calling her OP???

 

I'm glad that at least, like... two people get my post, I guess. Agree or not, thank you for that.

 

There's no reason to talk about Saryn or Ember clearing lowbie trash "better than her," which is frankly debatable in the first place. I've made it clear MULTIPLE times that this isn't about that, NOR her acquisition, which I've already proclaimed as not being newbie-friendly, and even talked about changing that for at least a couple sentences which apparently were not read before the mouth-foaming posts were made.

This is about her KIT - her DESIGN - being for newbie shooter players, whether intended or not. A frame that plants into the ground, activates two abilities, and merely turns the camera around is doing FAR less than an Ember who, sure, activates World on Fire for passive AoE damage... but still then must purely rely on mobility to stay alive, and is still able to shoot guns in a shooter game - two things Mesa does not do. If you think the intricacies of "knowing when to get energy" or "knowing the center-most point to turret in" makes her a higher skill frame than... basically any other frame at all, I would personally say you are wrong. And if you might try to deflect that under certain scenarios other frames do more damage, I ask you a few questions in return: How many frames? In what scenarios? How safe are they in comparison? How easy are they in comparison?

I look forward to your answers.

[Eidolon_Slayer]

2 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

This is about her KIT - her DESIGN - being for newbie shooter players

You're too fixated on this.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

19 minutes ago, Eidolon_Slayer said:

You're too fixated on this.

Way too fixated.

[watermane2000]

On 11/18/2017 at 2:28 PM, HerpDerpy said:

sounds like you just played a game where you didn't get to kill anything because of a mesa and now you're buthurt.

You havent even played with mesa a single time yet you feel inclined to criticize her kit. So IMO all of your arguments are invalid and pointless.

Damn he called you out boi. Honestly while the original statement is rude he has a point. All I've assume you've done is watch other people use her and looked at forum posts and wiki stats to bases this statement. Without actually playing her a lot of your credability loses face.

This is like me saying, "Yeah I can cook." And I somehow F*** up cooking an egg of all bloody things. (Seriously this happened in Kitchen Nightmares and it was @(*()$ hilarious)