A series of incidental tweaks

[o.0-]

I've been kicking around old ideas, that I'd like to start keeping here, so these are a series of ideas that transform things here and there, with the hopes of making Warframe better in the long run, such as keeping the whole Star Chart relevant to all players, regardless of their mod collection, so that the experience is more consistent and existing tools to ramp up challenge remain as important factors.

So with that goal in mind, peeling back various aspects of how systems relate to each other brought me to certain questions, and as a result has lead to certain conclusions on how existing systems could transform with a series of various tweaks, as follows:

1. Raising Damage must come at a price.
   • Such as Heavy Caliber raising Damage with increased recoil and spread. So, simply have this applied as a rule to have such trade-offs on available mods.
   • Mods like Rifle Aptitude then can decrease recoil and spread.
   • Mods that increase damage, like Serration or Incendiary Coat would then instead increase the chance for a status effect to occur, procs that should be made independent of damage, so that damage on weapons and status effects can be balanced in new ways.
   • Multishot evolves, into two paths the first is when multishot raises damage that ammo is expended, as originally intended creating a sort of burst fire form, the second is producing multiple projectiles for status, where damage does not get raised at the standard ammo expenditure.
2. Status Effects system evolves to be more independent of damage done, with enemies gaining new sets of resistances and weaknesses to diversify enemies.
3. Enemies continue to evolve, including the gain of Resistances as well as Weaknesses to Status Effects, where say an effect like Disrupt, Major Trauma (Bleed) or Armor Failure (Corrode, Shattering Impact) is possible when the appropriate health hitpoint bar is available and receiving damage.
   • Factions continue to gain much needed TLC, and Eximus get a sweet visual overhaul.
     • The Grineer have a very nice mix and its a matter of time to see updates for the rest of the factions
     • Eximus gain their own truly Elite Class status with new art
   • Here I mean how Bursas are resistant to getting stunned or staggered, and so since they have both Shields and Armor have chances to have those effects proc when appropriate.
   • And with such a framework, there could be more that is explored, such as having Corrupted being resistant, immune even, to Confusion since they are simply drones controlled through the Neural Sentry or Infested being relentless and being tough to stun/stagger.
4. The Ammo System gets some TLC.
5. Relationship between Power and Efficiency.
6. Ideas on the operator.

 

1. The premise of the first idea is to produce tradeoffs through available mods in how to create builds. Using a different framework for how stats appear on mods, that also has status effects become independent of damage and more related to health types being affected. As this idea moves away from combo elements, and looks to see changes in mods, there would then be more free slots available as a result on weapons so that utility mods would be more valued as options to slot into builds.

Spoiler

To recap, the basic ideas are:

IPS - Impact, Puncture and Slash remain the core of instant/immediate damage.

• All or most weapons will retain their current damage setup
• Explore splitting damage on contact as physical contact with the enemy and DoT carried by such damage.
• DoT and CC Procs evolve with a better distinction between instant/immediate damage, damage over time procs and Crowd Controlling procs.  And therefore, more types can be added over time and different procs can impart different effects on enemies, that can allow the devs to get more creative with Warframes and the various weapons at our disposal.

I think that the devs eventually need to deal with mods and adjust the Status system in the process, before being able to proceed with other changes, such as how enemies scale, as the actual scaling system has proven to work, and the devs have many tools available to create challenges if we can find a more firm foundation to build from (I mean Endless, Nightmare, Sortie and other similar tools to be able to craft the experience that the devs intend).

Spoiler

A number of mods will need to change some, Descriptions and how they apply to formulas will be the primary changes, as most shouldn't see too drastic changes, as I've tried to fit by their names and what they imply in action.

At any rate, as I've had free time, here's where I'm at now. I tried to retain a format of Primary / Shotgun / Secondary / Melee, in this rough draft, as such that, it could be possible to have some redundant mods become exclusive to specific weapon classes (something to do in the future I suppose! And there could be more drawbacks possible for stronger effects, dual stat on procs and so on, aside from having redundant mods be exclusive).

Ideas for status effects being independent and having their own mod cards, Status proc'ing Mods, that add or increases procs:

• Knockback: Hammer Shot / Full Contact / Pummel / Collision Force
• Weaken/Confusion: Wildfire / Blaze / Concussion Rounds / Buzz Kill / Shell Shock?
• Major Trauma (Bleed): Serration / Point Blank (Primed) / Maim / Heavy Trauma (Primed)
• Freeze: Cryo Rounds (Primed) / Frigid Blast / Rime Rounds / Glacial Edge
• Chain Lightning: High Voltage Warhead / Charged Shell / Convulsion / Shocking Touch
• Ignite: Thermite Rounds / Incendiary Coat / Scorch / Molten Impact
• Poison: Infected Clip / [Caustic Shells] / Pathogen Rounds / Poisonous Sting
• Pressure Wave (Blast): Hellfire Munitions / Thunderbolt / Accelerated Blast / Heated Charge / Concealed Explosives / Volcanic Strike
• Armor Failure: Piercing Hit / Shredder / Sawtooth Clip (moved from Primaries) / Shattering Impact
• Poison Cloud: Malignant Force / Toxic Barrage / [Blistering Agent] / Virulent Scourge
• Disrupt: Stormbringer Munitions / Disruptor / Jolt / Voltaic Strike
• Virus: [Contact Transmission] / Contagious Spread / Pistol Pestilence / Fever Strike (Primed)
• Punch-Through: Metal Auger / Flechette / Razor Shot / Sundering Strike

Weapon Mods:

• Reduces Spread and Recoil: Rifle Aptitude / Shotgun Savvy / Sure Shot
• Increases damage, recoil, spread: Heavy Caliber / Vicious Spread / Magnum Force / Spoiled Strike
• Reduces spread and recoil when mobile: Crash Course
• Increases the chance to Stun a target, to open them to Finishers: Pressure Point (Primed)

Multishot:

• Multishot evolves, into two paths the first is when multishot raises damage that ammo is expended, as originally intended creating a sort of burst fire form.
• The second is producing multiple additional projectiles for status, where  total damage does not get raised at the standard ammo expenditure, so damage per pellet decreases to keep the total damage constant.
  • Example, a weapon deals 184 damage with 8 pellets, meaning 23 damage per pellet. Add a mod that increases the pellet count to 16, now each pellet deals 11.5 damage
  • The idea simply being that overall damage is not raised, as what it should do is add projectiles to the bullets/shells we are firing (comparing a slug to birdshot). And so with build diversity, one would want more chances to get different procs with corrosive to defeat armor, but not necessarily for a build that is procing Confusion or Freeze and so on.

 

2. The way I had though of this was to build on what's already working, so I thought its time to have Status Effects become their own system that has an interplay with damage and health types. So, no longer be tied to a one to one relation between damage and status effects.

Spoiler

Status Effects become more independent of damage dealt.

• Weapons that can innately proc certain Status Effects, do not need to add mods to have them available, and installing one raises the chance for it, if a mod is added.
• Corrode evolves to be one possible proc for Armor Failure as a property of Armor.
  • Like Shattering Impact, when Armor Failure rolls there can be an amount of Armor that is stripped.
    • Slash and Impact have the lowest chance to proc this, as they are not designed to work against armor.
    • Puncture, Heat, Radiation, Electricity and Corrosive all have a chance to add additional percent of damage through Thermal Shock.
  • With chances to roll existing 'Corrode' that permanently takes off 25% or armor.
• Disrupt too evolves in relation to Shields.
  • Impact remains the best option against Shields and has the greatest chance to over load the shield emitters.
  • Heat, Radiation and Electricity have better chances than Puncture to score Procs against shields.
  • Puncture is the worst option to get procs, with Slash in between.
  • Maximum Shields are reduced, Shield Regen is delayed, Shields stay down for a period of time
• Bleed is renamed as Major Trauma and has a chance to proc on any enemy that has Flesh or Cloned Flesh.
  • This proc is resisted by Armor and Shields and is strong against Flesh and Cloned Flesh.
• Punch Through becomes considered a Status Effect and needs to defeat layers of defense (Armor and Shields) to occur.
• Certain Status Effects are connected to the type of health being affected and with certain actions by the player.
  • Stagger, Knockback and Knockdown are based on an attribute of the enemy (maybe based on the amount of EHP of target and/or usage of the value used in punch through). Resisted by Armor and Shield amounts is possible. Blast is one of the few that can consistently proc Knockback and Knockdown on making contact.
  • Weaken and Confusion have increased chance with Headshots, no longer binary with Puncture and Radiation, new Concussive mods can increase chances of proc these.
  • Ignite, Freeze, Chain Lightning, Poison, Viral, Gas Cloud procs can be possible when a weapon innately carries it, and Mods can add the chance to proc them, as various Warheads that add them to projectiles.

For example, Grineer are said to rock a carbon steel type of armor and use Ferrite and an Alloy, one is standard and one more advanced. Watching videos on youtube on striking steel plates I got wondering why can't there be certain status effects tied to certain health types? Examples in spoiler:

Spoiler

So I take my AkMagnus with Thermite Warheads in the bullets, and start firing on a Grineer soldier using his standard Armor, I can get chances to roll, (the RNG is on hitting the target in different areas, one shot might glance off the plate, another might dig in a thigh, a third the bullet fragments and sharpnel gets through):

• 16.09% Armor Failure (Corrode proc, Shattering Impact mod are two examples on two ways to do them).
•   4.89% Penetration (Punch-though, and yes idea is having this be incorporated into Status)
• 16.44% Stun - Stagger - Knockback/down
• 22.14% Ignite
• 19.11% Major Trauma (basically Bleed proc)
• 21.33% Weaken - Confusion (scaling best on Headshots)

2nd example, I take my AkMagnus with mods that gives me Weaken and Toxin procs against Corpus

• 13.31% Armor Failure / Disrupt
• 23.11% Toxin
•  5.25% Penetration
• 21.07% Major Trauma
• 18.22% Stun - Stagger - Knockback/down
• 22.04% Weaken - Confusion

3rd, I take my Boar Prime with Blast damage against infested

• 27.23% Pressure Wave (Gibs and knocks down enemies)
• 11.7% Stun - Stagger - Knockback/down
• 24.3% Major Trauma
• 13.25% Penetration
• 23.55% Weaken - Confusion

Another example of how this would work, say I choose to swing my Sibear, I'd get chances at using my Cold damage to proc:

• 22.3% Stun - Stagger - Knockback/down
•   5.75% Weaken - Confuse
•   1.27% Penetration
• 19.9% Freeze
• 26.7% Major Trauma
• 23.7% Armor Failure / Disrupt

Then I can add mods to adjust the ratios further for proc'ing an effect, and add procs, to proc on the enemy.

 

So, I feel that with such adjustments, then more effects can be possible, as we see with how Hunter Munitions works or even Condition Overload and the work that's gone into changes that the devs shared for Khora could still be a big part going forward.

And then enemies can be crafted against these systems, maybe with what I mentioned above, and at the very least how enemies scale up with the existing systems already in place.

 

3. Health Types can see a few minor tweaks here and there

• Corpus should have their own armor type with distinct Resistances and Weaknesses from Alloy and Ferrite.
  • What I imagine for this Armor to be a polymer based 'Kevlar'.
  • It could have Resistance to Cold and Magnetic, while weak to Heat and Slash.
• Grineer keep their two Armor types
• Tenno should get their own types for Health, Armor and Shields, the difference being that through the use of more exotic alloys, they have no Resistances or Weaknesses, as seen in other faction Health types.
• Enemies also get assigned sets of resistances and weaknesses to Status Effects as they retain their sets of resistances and weaknesses to damage types.
  • Includes distinctions by enemy types and Factions to further diversify the enemy using existing tools and elements
  • Armored enemies have a weakness to Armor failure being a chance to occur in the field
  • Shielded enemies have a weakness to having their systems disrupted
  • Enemies can build on stats to allow Heavy units to show case their increased mass and density to lighter troops, utilizing existing attributes in relation to how they respond to stun, stagger, knockback/down, as Bursas are one enemy type that show cases this can expand on this to coincide to the above changes with the Status system.
  • One potential idea using the Corrupted to illustrate, is that they would generally be resistant or immune to Confusion, as they are being controlled remotely by the Neural Sentry. So such details can be built into factions for further nuance how they behave and can be affected by abilities and status effects.

Such a setup, could then open up being able to add additional mods that can grant a wider variety of status effects (without necessarily overshadowing IPS damage, as happens now with current Elemental mods) and allow players a bit more diversity in builds, so instead of having three to five mods to boost Elemental damage, we would be able to select one or two Status mods to be able to proc that on enemies (so potentially saving at least a slot or two for other mods).

Enemy scaling would need to be adjusted some, as raw damage would be reduced, and factions could see different sets of weaknesses and resistances to Status Effects to work along side the existing damage setup.

 

Eximus, these units should be more Elite Specialists with actual gear (growths and masses for Infested) that they carry into battle, such as unique camo patterns and colors, specialized armor, faction specific armor attachments, specialized weaponry and other auxiliary gear. MOAs that spawn as Eximus should have a different gun model mounted on the unit and have cosmetic ornaments also.

Their AI should also reflect their Elite status, build from what Rathuum, the Index and the Specter AI update showed can be possible, and likely adjust their spawn rate.

And at least replace the glowing effects from Head to Toe with effects that are more along the lines of how Warframes channel Energy, so that the gear they carry would be the items that should be generating any glowing effects.

         

Spoiler

Blitz - Could have weapons from the Marine selection and a pouch from where they can throw grenades that cause their Seismic Shockwave.

Energy Leech - Could carry a blunt weapon that for Grineer would be a modded Amphis, and I guess Corpus could keep the Prova.

Arson - These units would carry the Napalm's signature weapon and a special backpack that would be the source of their Fire Blast.

Guardian - Could have a special backpack and gauntlet that is used to recharge their allies.

Arctic - These units should be far more unique and should therefore have a special Grineer Skin and a Corpus Skin, where they look to have a specially designed and insulated suit that projects gas like Frost's arm attachments and has a specialized backpack. I'd consider giving these units the Glaxion with a Grineer skin variant, could use the Napalm Ogris for example.

Leech -  I'd consider these units to carry a Drakgoon, since they are only found with Grineer, and have a Gauntlet that could account for it's Life Leech, similar to Dok Thul.

Shock - These should carry the Amprex or Lanka and a Tesla Coil looking device that is the source of their aura damage.

Parasitic, Caustic, Sanguine and Venomous these would simply incorporate more of their aura colors into their new grows and masses as the sources of their energy and have less neon, disco-esque energy colors from Head to Toe. Then their aura effects could be more as flames emanating from their growths and masses instead of how they currently have the colored energy lines going across their bodies. Icing on the cake would be to adjust their auras as well, but reduced spawn rate and improved enemy behavior could be enough.

 

4. Another idea

In reading other threads wondering about the tech available in Warframe, I've often wondered about how common 3D printers could be, and how micro-scale they could potentially be having many years of access to such tech in-universe, like how we've gone from a computer the size of room to one that can fit inside of a watch and their capabilities.

So the idea here is re-imagining Ammo in Warframe. I don't know how other recent games do it, but here is the concept:

• Warframes due to how they are powered and engineered are able to manufacture Ammo in the field
• Their Reserve then becomes the number of ready made magazines/clips/projectiles to reload
• So ammo pickups provide the material that is then custom made for which ever carried weapons we have, and refill by the mag / tube / clip size.
  • The Soma would be 100, Braton P 75, Karak 30, Amprex 100 and so on.
• UI Hud, could change to displaying symbols for the number of ready Mags / Clips (weapons like bows would display the number of arrows with whats in the quiver and one mag / quiver).
• Different weapons can then display differences in how many ready made ammo can be carried at a time and be a source of balancing between weapons.
  • A Weapon like the Supra Vandal is really only carrying five mags, with 1600 reserve and 300 in the mag.
  • The Kohm is more or less at 4 clips/mags now
  • Compared to the AkLex P, which could be envisioned to have 26 mags, with a 210 reserve. Or the Vasto P, having 35 with a 210 reserve. So if such a change works, a weapon like the Lex and Vasto could have five ready made mags instead.
• Ammo mutation mods could evolve some, to be a dual stat option of ammo max mods, granting extra ready made mags/clips and increasing the sources to have more ready from a greater variety of sources, so they still mutate material.

Could likely need a few more tweaks here and there, but this serves as the initial outline for what I'd like to see for ammo in Warframe.

 

5. I happen to like the idea of expanding further on differences between Energy Regen/ Energy Return/ Energy Pool Max on Warframes, while looking at having a more direct correlation between Strength and Efficiency.

That way what changes is the passive Regen, variable return from energy sources and Energy pool Maxes changes further on a case by case basis, then Ability costs would scale depending on Power Strength's increase, varying between each Warframe:

• That way a Frame that needs to cast often, but has expensive abilities could see boosts to Energy Returns and Energy Pool Maxes, such as Vauban casting his traps.
• Nova on the other hand, could see improved passive Energy regen as one ability is mostly defensive, one boosts damage, the 3rd is often not used in combat and the 4th is a duration based debuff on enemies.
• Atlas being a brawler that could be considered as needing to spam Landslide could see kills with the ability provide a return on energy to sustain the ability for example.
• So on and so forth for each Warframe.

In other words, Power Efficiency expands to be more diverse than simply reducing the cost of our four Warframe Abilities, and each Warframe gains a more unique sort of efficiency for how Energy works relating to their kit. And therefore, could allow certain abilities to work differently, related to how a kit is designed to work (including the retention of Duration based abilities as they work to build up different builds as intended). Need to expand on this further.

 

6. The Operator as a concept is fine. The manner in which the Operator has been implemented so far into gameplay and its potential impact on lore, is what I have issue. So either have the Operator remain solely on the Orbiter doing Transference or allow it to be unleashed as a full Void Demon.

• If the operator controlling Void Energy remains on the Ship then I'd like one or even both of the following explored:

1. The in mission manifestation can be fully customizible,  where I can choose to have an energy entity (not my Operator) and continue to be able to mistify enemies like Alad V who do not know the truth.
2. Instead of the Void Energy escaping the Warframe when in '5' mode, the Warframe continues to move around, but with the limits of the new format with new energy emanations from the Warframe. Lorewise, the difference is that regularly the Void Energy is being contained to power the mobility of the Warframe for superhuman feats, in '5' mode Void Energy is being supercharged and used directly around the Warframe bypassing normal movement and the native powers of the Warframe as a direct conduit of the Operator's will.

• If we really are swapping places with the Operator and it is the actual Operator running around and not an Energy manifestation of the Operator's will, then why can't the Operator be more Void Demon then? While sustaining the mystique of the Tenno?
  • Having a teenager running around was fine in the quests, as the Operator was not prepared and thrust into brand new situations. Having the Operator appear when facing Corpus and basic Grineer troops feels off.
  • If instead we have a manifestation that would mimic Rell and/or have more options with changes to movement and animations then I could live with having the Operator actually be appearing in missions.

In regards to what could be possible with how the Operator evolves, here are some ideas, where I'll start with what I would not want:

• To have to use the mode for specific aspects, without key changes.
• To end up having the Operator really leaving the Orbiter, he/she should safely be their with Ordis during missions.

Now, for what I do want:

• Options for how and what we manifest in missions.
  • One idea is simply as an energy force that exits the Warframe, with Loki being the only one who can switch teleport.
  • Another idea, from a discussion in another thread, is continue to control our Warframes in what could be named Void mode and instead have a new energy emanate from our Warframes as we use this mode, so functionally still functions as pressing '5' works, with maybe an ethereal Warframe. The difference being how Void energy is being used, the standard way that we've had where Void Energy is used to power the unique Warframe powers and the new mode as a Void Conduit directly channeling Void energy at our enemies.
• Void Energy being fully incorporated into the Damage model as a new damage type.
  • such as giving weaknesses and resistances to enemies.
  • It can still be the most effective means to harm the Eidolons and Kuva Guardians, but then able to affect them with other means as players prefer to tackle the situations presented.
• Visuals for one of the new energy options.
• Record new lines for the Operator to use and replace most of the existing dialogue.

The Operator remaining on the Orbiter, remotely projecting his/her will through the Warframe feels right for how I've seen the relationship be presented. Next in the possible ways of structuring the mode, better than having an apparition of my Operator appear, have a type of projection that represents the will of my Operator.

If the devs really want to stay with the Operators, I can deal with that and then simply want options as to how they are integrated into the Warframe universe, with one aspect being that Void energy then becomes incorporated with the existing damage types and how enemies like Kuva Guards and Eidolons relate to damage in general.

I'd have no problem seeing Kuva Guards be able to have say Nox style damage caps on the older damage types and then retain their weakness to Void Energy so that internal consistency can flow better throughout the game.

Because having an enemy be totally immune to damage only because its holding a melee weapon, without void powers, is not internally consistent to me; as they do not seem to be infused with Kuva either, since that is collected and saved for the Queens. At this point, there could be a contrivance and the guards are Kuva addicted fiends, with the Queens as their suppliers, but still why is the immunity suddenly gone when they switch to their Twin Roggas? Boss battles are a little different as they have more an age issue, aside from the new lore issues that Kuva introduces, unless Ruk and Kril are Kuva junkies too, hmm...

Then we have the Eidolons.

 

 

So here's where I'm at with this WIP for ideas to transform systems here and there.

 

 

The inspiration for re-posting the thinking on this.

Spoiler

After listening to a comment by Scott in Devstream 101, I got to thinking about what could be possible with what I'm imagining the devs can do.

And here is more info on that:

Spoiler

IMPACT, PUNCTURE, SLASH DAMAGE (IPS)

When making Khora, we were prompted to take a harder look at the current IPS damage system. As a result, some changes are being made to help with damage scaling and to encourage the use of diverse damage types. The strength of each proc will now scale with the amount of damage you are dealing for that specific type.

With this change, the scaling of the procs will be tweaked as follows:

· Puncture – currently, this damage type makes an enemy weaker by 30%. With the scaling system, you can make your enemies do up to 90% reduced damage based on your weapon modding.

· Impact – at the moment of writing this, an impact proc will cause your foe to stagger. The severity of this stagger will grow with your damage output, from a bigger stagger, to knockdown, to even rag dolling for a certain amount of time.

· Slash – the Devs didn’t reveal if there were any changes for this proc planned, but they did mention that they’d take a look at the number of Slash procs you can have stacked with this new scaling system’s implementation.

In taking a look at physical damage, Scott did mention that there was discussion about elemental damage scaling as well. Blast was used as an example; a possible change would be to have an immediate ragdoll upon proc that scales in duration.

Finally, as part of this revision, we will be re-evaluating what happens when status chance goes over 100% on a weapon.

https://www.warframe.com/news/devstream-101

Currently, Proc'ing Status Effects have a one to one relationship with damage and is all about how we mod our weapons, building up Status Chance to have a roll on what Proc affects the enemy.

So dependent on our mods and then a bit of RNG, that we can coax by the ratios in damage types on a weapon, I wondered, what about the materials we are hitting? Don't they happen to have particular properties that could be unique to them? And what about the fact that that interactions can even have varied results?

And a thought occurred to me, what if at least some Status Effects are directly tied to Health Types?

So instead of having all Status Effects be directly tied to a single damage type only, what if we could see certain status effects be related to specific health types (and even other factors as base stat values, to be able to differentiate a Butcher from a Heavy Gunner for instance) and have a set of CC status effects that could also be independent of base weapon damage and damaging procs?

That way some of the varied damage procs can relate to how materials would fail when damaged, and other procs capable of adding different sorts of CC on the enemies themselves be further distinguished. That way enemy health types could carry more dynamic interaction when receiving damage and we can move away from Elemental Combos dominating damage over physical damage in both Crit and Status builds.

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by SPARTAN-187.Thanatos
Refining details, and further streamlining blocks of text

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

Ultimately I think that's the end goal that the developers want. Mods altering the effects of your weapon and how it interacts with the world rather than just buffing up the single target damage stats. That is part of the reason they were talking about having things like Serration or Pressure point be phased out and the weapons stats just be buffed to compensate.

However, If the basic pure damage mods are phased out, will that not just make elemental +% damage mods the next new requirement (and thus begin another cycle of power creep)? In the end I think that if we are to reach a point where mods are slotted to improve the basic utilities of a weapon, rather than how much damage it deals, Flat +% damage mods without any negative as a whole should be phased out (Multishot and crit damage should be looked at too). And instead of that, have elemental conversion type mods (50% of damage done is fire damage, etc.)

This would require a huge re-balance in how basic damage types work with enemies, and how enemies themselves scale.

In the end, progression will not be attained by Maxing the amount of +%damage mods you have, but experimenting with mod combinations and figuring what works where, and what you like where.

 

Course, this will likely never happen.

[o.0-]

1 hour ago, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

Spoiler

Ultimately I think that's the end goal that the developers want. Mods altering the effects of your weapon and how it interacts with the world rather than just buffing up the single target damage stats. That is part of the reason they were talking about having things like Serration or Pressure point be phased out and the weapons stats just be buffed to compensate.

However, If the basic pure damage mods are phased out, will that not just make elemental +% damage mods the next new requirement (and thus begin another cycle of power creep)? In the end I think that if we are to reach a point where mods are slotted to improve the basic utilities of a weapon, rather than how much damage it deals, Flat +% damage mods without any negative as a whole should be phased out (Multishot and crit damage should be looked at too). And instead of that, have elemental conversion type mods (50% of damage done is fire damage, etc.)

This would require a huge re-balance in how basic damage types work with enemies, and how enemies themselves scale.

In the end, progression will not be attained by Maxing the amount of +%damage mods you have, but experimenting with mod combinations and figuring what works where, and what you like where.

 

Course, this will likely never happen.

 

I don't imagine it would require a huge re-balance, depending on how a few of the related systems are coded for the game engine, as there are a few examples of common to uncommon enemies that already sorta have a bit of what I'm looking at with this idea.

One enemy type are the Bursa that due to their shields are able to resist being stunned and knocked back. Then we have the Nox and Nullifier that both have different types of damage caps and weaknesses. Then on the other hand there are Ancients that are weak to Corrosive, where the Corrode proc really doesn't do anything against them, unless they are standing in the armoring swarm, which can be dealt with in ways that do not need the Corrode proc.

Damage Conversion mods, could certainly play a bigger role with what could potentially come out of Damage 3.0 ideas.

[o.0-]

As I have been thinking on this topic, and improving how to go about it; I wonder if anyone has anything they'd like to share?

 

And another detail to share, when thinking of hitting at something, at range; the factors of Accuracy and Precision are top attributes, with other variables that we can variably control.

Other such attributes may include the rifling (or lack of in the weapon), imbalanced projectiles, imperfections in the round, imperfections in minor details of the weapon, material fatigue, distance, speed of target relative to shooter, strength of cross winds, gravity, so on and so on. Much of which can be compensated for.

The point being that even in real conditions, there can be a frustrating amount of randomness, or RNG, that is not easily accounted for, yet can be accounted for nonetheless.

 

With that said, what we have with Damage 2.0 is pretty good overall, and I hope that the sorts of ideas I'm sharing here can add to what's already here in Warframe (and is being looked at for the Khora Warframe) and ideally may help the game to continue to evolve.

 

So from listening to Devstream 101 to thinking on what I heard, I hope that these ideas could be helpful. Not only to keep things moving forward, but to also open up more experimentation that the game engine certainly seems capable of providing.

Edited November 22, 2017 by SPARTAN-187.Thanatos
grammer needo works on its

[Kurtys]

I'd really like if the devs at least do something about mandatory mods and powercreep in general. Maybe they could remove mandatory mods and reintroduce them as a General Warframe skill tree we could pour endo in to level up (a la Focus but for our warframes and weaponry) where our power level (aka straigth up damage and defense numbers) is more tied to those trees and thus would be in a more balanced and controled environment (and also new player friendly).

I'd like mods to be for heavy customization of our weapons, but right now it's more about increasing our damage or/and crowd control as much as possible in order to deal with armor and health scaling.

[o.0-]

10 hours ago, Kurtys said:

I'd really like if the devs at least do something about mandatory mods and powercreep in general. Maybe they could remove mandatory mods and reintroduce them as a General Warframe skill tree we could pour endo in to level up (a la Focus but for our warframes and weaponry) where our power level (aka straigth up damage and defense numbers) is more tied to those trees and thus would be in a more balanced and controled environment (and also new player friendly).

I'd like mods to be for heavy customization of our weapons, but right now it's more about increasing our damage or/and crowd control as much as possible in order to deal with armor and health scaling.

At the very least, Serration, Hornet Strike and Pressure Point (Primed) could get reintroduced as new mods

• Serration - could turn into a Melee Mod that increases chance to proc Major Trauma on a Target.
• Hornet Strike - turns into a Primary Mod that increases the chance to proc Confusion on a Target.
• Pressure Point - turns into a Melee Mod that increases the chance to Stun a target and open them to Finishers.

The PvP mods that convert damage could be brought into PvE, Serrated Rounds, Ripper Rounds and so on, acting as a model for existing PvE damage mods. 

• Sawtooth Clip - converts a percent of damage to Slash, as it modifies the bullet tips to slice on impact
• Fang Fusilade - converts a percent of damage to Slash, as it adds a bundle of titanium needles to the round
• Piercing Hit -  converts a percent of damage to Puncture, as it adds an armor piercing Sabot to the round
• Piercing Caliber -  converts a percent of damage to Puncture, as it adds a steel alloy jacket to the round
• Rupture - converts a percent of damage to Impact, as the round is designed to fragment on impact
• Heavy Caliber - adds mass and density to the round by using depleted uranium, which changes the ballistics properties in flight
• Rime Rounds - could add a cryotic filled Warhead inside the bullet
• Thermite Rounds - add a Thermite filled Warhead
• and so on.

I plan to go through the mods like this and detail how much of what we already have can see further tweaks through adjusting mods.

[Kurtys]

il y a 49 minutes, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos a dit :

At the very least, Serration, Hornet Strike and Pressure Point (Primed) could get reintroduced as new mods

• Serration - could turn into a Melee Mod that increases chance to proc Major Trauma on a Target.
• Hornet Strike - turns into a Primary Mod that increases the chance to proc Confusion on a Target.
• Pressure Point - turns into a Melee Mod that increases the chance to Stun a target and open them to Finishers.

If by "reintroduced", you mean "converted to", why not, so we don't totally lose the time invested in those mods.

 

On the case of multishot, i think the concept in the game is mostly fine, but the problem is that the value on the mods are just too high. If Split Chamber only gave 30% multishot, you would probably still see it on status build, but maybe not so much on critical build on slow weapons as you'll probably want as much damage in one shot as you can (especialy on marksman weapons).

Edited November 23, 2017 by Kurtys

[o.0-]

9 minutes ago, Kurtys said:

If by "reintroduced", you mean "converted to", why not, so we don't totally lose the time invested in those mods.

 

On the case of multishot, i think the concept in the game is mostly fine, but the problem is that the value on the mods are just too high. If Split Chamber only gave 30% multishot, you would probably still see it on status build, but maybe not so much on critical build on slow weapons as you'll probably want as much damage in one shot as you can (especialy on marksman weapons).

The way I've thought about Multishot, I have in the OP, where the basic idea, is how we can easily change the load of a shotgun shell, so take a slug, and its one large projectile, whereas using 00 Buck would have nine pellets compared to Birdshot, that would have even more projectiles.

So with Multishot, overall damage would not increase, where as projectile count increases, damage per projectile decreases. The benefit in being the increased chances to score a proc.

So for example, take a Shotgun like the Hek, using the Synd Multishot Mod and Hell's Chamber, and uses Gas, gives ~34 Pellets, so that's ~34 chances to score Gas procs on each trigger pull.

As Gas is a DoT ability, that should be a nice combo, as the high puncture should still help in defeating Armor, with the Gas ticking away at health and would linger where they got proc'd, until the cloud dissipates.

[o.0-]

I've been thinking that Mods could be where a one to one relationship continue to exists in terms of adding and/or increasing chances to proc Effects on the enemy. Then enemies can dictate is specific cases, if a good mix was taken to the mission or not. Descriptions and how they apply to formulas will be the primary changes, as most shouldn't see too drastic changes, as I've tried to fit by their names and what they imply in action.

With that said, I've had a tricky time thinking about what could Weaken be in terms of enemies, if its a physical effect or mental effect? And leaning towards being on a continuum with Confusion, so that Confusion is the highest state and possible to proc with increased chance on Headshots, and the different degrees of Weaken. Physical, I can think of possibilities of being affected by a variety of effects, if Weaken and Confusion are more closely related. Mental, and it gets trickier, with Shell Shock being on of the few that I can see working thematically out of current mod names, so other ideas to add could be such as Lethal Exposure? Like I said, I need to keep thinking about it, and need feedback from others to progress the idea.

The other was Critical Hits as I feel that the more I think of it it should be related to effects on an enemy and be something that some enemies could be resistant to as well as many be weak to. As a completely dead enemy needs no CC effects so their could a continuum there that is further established. And such a change in the relationship is mostly going to be in the Arsenal UI, as this really shouldn't impact Crit Builds, as this more expands on what can be possible with Status Builds as we currently call them.

At any rate, as I've had free time, here's where I'm at now. I tried to retain a format of Primary / Shotgun / Secondary / Melee, in this rough draft, as such that, it could be possible to have some redundant mods become exclusive to specific weapon classes (something to do in the future I suppose! And there could be more drawbacks possible for stronger effects, dual stat on procs and so on, aside from having redundant mods be exclusive):

Status proc'ing Mods, that add or increases procs:

Knockback: Hammer Shot / Full Contact / Pummel / Collision Force

Weaken/Confusion: Wildfire / Blaze / Concussion Rounds / Buzz Kill / Shell Shock?

Major Trauma (Bleed): Serration / Point Blank (Primed) / Maim / Heavy Trauma (Primed)

Freeze: Cryo Rounds (Primed) / Frigid Blast / Rime Rounds / Glacial Edge

Chain Lightning: High Voltage Warhead / Charged Shell / Convulsion / Shocking Touch

Ignite: Thermite Rounds / Incendiary Coat / Scorch / Molten Impact

Poison: Infected Clip / [Caustic Shells] / Pathogen Rounds / Poisonous Sting

Pressure Wave (Blast)+: Hellfire Munitions / Thunderbolt / Accelerated Blast / Heated Charge / Concealed Explosives / Volcanic Strike

Armor Failure: Piercing Hit / Shredder / Sawtooth Clip (moved from Primaries) / Shattering Impact

Poison Cloud: Malignant Force / Toxic Barrage / [Blistering Agent] / Virulent Scourge

Disrupt: Stormbringer Munitions / Disruptor / Jolt / Voltaic Strike

Virus: [Contact Transmission] / Contagious Spread / Pistol Pestilence / Fever Strike (Primed)

Punch-Through*: Metal Auger / Flechette / Razor Shot / Sundering Strike

Weapon Mods:

Reduces Spread and Recoil: Rifle Aptitude / Shotgun Savvy / Sure Shot

Increases damage, recoil, spread: Heavy Caliber / Vicious Spread / Magnum Force / Spoiled Strike

Reduces spread and recoil when mobile: Crash Course

Increases the chance to Stun a target, to open them to Finishers: Pressure Point (Primed)

+ As Thunderbolt and Concealed Explosives exist, thought I'd leave them on the list.

* The Seeker themed names feel more like they would be like the Buzlok, so that's why I have a different set in mind

When I get more free time, I'll add this into the OP.

[o.0-]

I'm planning on adding to this and refining ideas over time. As I've made additions and expanded on them, I'll continue to add things, such as re-imagining Ammo in Warframe:

• Warframes due to how they are powered and engineered are able to manufacture Ammo in the field
• Their Reserve then becomes the number of ready made magazines/clips/projectiles to reload
• So ammo pickups provide the material that is then custom made for which ever carried weapons we have, and refill by the mag / tube / clip size.
  • The Soma would be 100, Braton P 75, Karak 30, Amprex 100 and so on.
• UI Hud, could change to displaying symbols for the number of ready Mags / Clips (weapons like bows would display the number of arrows with whats in the quiver and one mag / quiver).
• Different weapons can then display differences in how many ready made ammo can be carried at a time and be a source of balancing between weapons.
  • A Weapon like the Supra Vandal is really only carrying five mags, with 1600 reserve and 300 in the mag.
  • The Kohm is more or less at 4 clips/mags now
  • Compared to the AkLex P, which could be envisioned to have 26 mags, with a 210 reserve. Or the Vasto P, having 35 with a 210 reserve. So if such a change works, a weapon like the Lex and Vasto could have five ready made mags instead.
• Ammo mutation mods could evolve some, to be a dual stat option of ammo max mods, granting extra ready made mags/clips and increasing the sources to have more ready from a greater variety of sources, so they still mutate material.

[o.0-]

More brainstorming:

Expanding on Punch Through, as the way it works now, we just need to meet the minimum to have projectiles penetrate and the extra amount is currently excessive, as it has no further interactions and can be an area that could add to Warframe.

More Weapons can have innate Punch through, as well as enemies too should have different density values and have this property have more interaction to enemy defenses and enemy density.

So Lightly Armored Grineer would be the easiest to penetrate, with Heavies having a higher value, requiring more punch through. So the base value can be 0.5/0.6 for these enemies where Heavies could be at 1.0 or however best to set the values. So Vehicles, Bursa and Ambulas, would be a sort of enemy that we would not expect to have projectiles pass through without certain weapons like the Lanka, as these can have the highest density values. Another factor that I'm keeping in mind is that adding punch through mods to weapons, especially if more weapons will have this property innately, would then be a factor in how enemies can be setup in resisting this property.

Against Shields, I'd argue that it can be considered to be effectively useless (as the Shields are simply deflecting the projectiles) until shields are completely depleted for this to then take effect (and I say this having taken weapons with high Toxic damage and Punch through against Sortie level Corpus, bypassing their defenses entirely). If possible, I'd keep the ricocheting projectiles dealing some damage as they deflect (bounce) off of shields when firing into a group of Corpus. For example, the deflection(bounce) doesn't have to be like the Drakgoon (with its Augment mod) or Tetra's, as the interaction here is only with Corpus Shields having this particular effect on projectiles, so the Drakgoon retains its ricocheting against any surfaces as its feature/gimmick.

Last thing to consider is having the punch through value deplete as it penetrates objects, depending on how the game engine tracks projectiles, so having a weapon with 2.1 Metal Augur mod for example would allow a projectile to pass through two Grineer Heavies (as each should have a higher density value) and be able to shred through a number of lightly armored Grineer and depleted Shields Corpus.

[o.0-]

Another set of thoughts that I need add and update in the OP:

I think that what it would take is an integration of our inputs to execute combos along with ranged attacks, since melee stances and combos are currently isolated from gunplay currently (meaning either you are shooting and have quick melee or you have Melee Equipped) and with gun and blade coming soon and how Quick Melee shows, that this should be expanded on further, more as a feature of Warframe being powerful space ninjas, and a part of it is in being able to make use of various keybinds to flow as naturally as possible.

So building within the limits of the gaming controllers and have a new integration with key-binds for actions, with a few new menu options as needed, should allow for actions to execute fluidly as a player moves about and should not be labor intensive beyond making changes to Stance Combos to activate from varied inputs that would be available.

So we'd have things like:

• Combat style, which weapon would be default Equipped and idle? And Active Animation Sets
  • I assume an option in the Arsenal or in Menu Options could work so that if a player wants to have their favorite weapon out as a default they can
  • and an in mission menu popup, along side the existing gear wheel should be considered with this paradigm, could have a connection to Focus Schools as a means to have it more interconnected.
  • We have idle animations, where we can choose to have a Rhino or Atlas float like Titania or have Inaros' drunken master idle, so the idea here is having active action animation sets available. For example, I'd pay plat for a John Wick style Tactical animation set that I'd likely use on everything.
• Ranged Attack keybind
  • if a Melee Weapon is default state, the Warframe would have to put away the melee before firing, so it all depends on the speed and efficiency of animations, which can really just be a matter of seconds and can allow for lots of flair with how Warframes animate
  • various youtube videos show how trained individuals can do this within seconds, so not that big of an issue in making these animations fast and efficient.
• Melee Strike (current Quick Melee) keybind
  • Basic Melee Swing as seen in Quick Melee that then can ramp up to a few basic animations, that can then synergize with other keybinds to execute Melee Combos.
  • Certain Animations, like for Swords, should get improved or replaced in the process, others like for Ninkondi and Shaku are basically perfect IMHO though.
• Block/Parry/Counter (current Melee Block) keybind
  • can be used with other keybinds to execute advanced combos and Channeled Blocking could maybe use the Combo Counter, so a melee with better base Block uses less hits,
  • also able to stun and finish enemies when a prompt occurs and be available for executing combos, reason for this is to allow a player to choose when to have it happen, now when say using Inaros, Excal or Equinox, certain weapons just get stuck randomly using Finisher animations based on range to the target so moving it to a key like this would prevent that and add utility
• Heavy Strike (current Melee Channeling) keybind
  • also able to Slam, Charge and possibly allow for Advanced dodges combined with other inputs
  • and throw/fire Melee Weapons, if equipped with one.
• Jump - already has some synergy with Slams while airborne and Parkour, so also available for combos
• Roll - I use this a lot, I incorporate this action in my movement and can be another available input for combos.
• Slide - I use this a lot too, same as Roll
• Roll/Slide - I don't use this anymore, but some players could so, leaving it here
• Crouch - use this for bullet jumping, also possible to incorporate in Combos
• Sprint - I can see a use for this with Charging (so Sprint and Heavy Strike, for example) and executing Combos.
• Secondary Fire - many weapons have a function that uses this
• Reload
• Gear Wheel Hot Keys - in my case I have assigned three and the Gear Wheel itself makes four to account for.
• Warframe Abilities and Focus - in my case I have a mouse that allows me to have access to any of the four on demand, and keep '5' key for Focus.
• Map
• Zoom - for Warframe, I use Zoom on some weapons, and for controllers having it as a toggle for a thumb stick click seems plausible, so have it here on the list
• Switch Gun/Equip Melee - I have these now to go between weapons and would be obsolete along with Switch Weapon, if a Warframe would be able to execute attacks in a renewed manner

So I think it is totally doable to have improvements in this area and keeping existing keybinds (so literally no need to add keys here, just reapplying how they perform actions). Such changes, under the hood so to speak, can do much to add a different sort of functionality and fluidity with how we could approach fighting enemies in Warframe however players prefer, and can be work for game controllers and mouse and keyboard that should add lots of value to Warframe, without having to copy other games.

Nonetheless other games can serve as inspiration for adding value to Warframe all the same.

[Hecking_Birb]

I love the ideas presented, I think.
I say "I think" because this post isn't well-worded, and leaves a lot of confusion. The parts I do understand are agreeable though.

[o.0-]

5 minutes ago, Hecking_Birb said:

I love the ideas presented, I think.
I say "I think" because this post isn't well-worded, and leaves a lot of confusion. The parts I do understand are agreeable though.

Details and examples, I have plenty of.

What would you like to know more about?

[Hecking_Birb]

1 minute ago, o.0- said:

Details and examples, I have plenty of.

What would you like to know more about?

I hate to say it but everything you said involving status

and operator integration

 didn't mean confusion as in you didn't say enough, i mean confusion as in the words you use aren't very clear

[o.0-]

46 minutes ago, Hecking_Birb said:

I hate to say it but everything you said involving status

and operator integration

 didn't mean confusion as in you didn't say enough, i mean confusion as in the words you use aren't very clear

With Status what we have is a one to one relationship with a damage type to a status effect, so a weapon that cannot deal Slash cannot cause the Bleed effect. Or one that cannot deal Blast cannot Knockdown an enemy. So that Puncture will only cause Weaken, Radiation will only cause Confusion, Gas will only cause Toxin Cloud and so on.

So take a weapon like the Tetra, it only deals Puncture and Impact (Weaken and [Knockback] Stagger). Add mods and it then can deal additional elemental damage and status effects, but anything IPS is weighted more to cause IPS effects (Slash, Weaken and Knockback) to occur more often over Elemental Status Effects. A workaround to the system is then stacking Elemental mods to modify the weighting. The Sibear, being Cold damage can then only cause an enemy to Freeze. Add mods for a change of what can be caused.

So, the idea here is a weapon that only deals puncture and impact damage can then have a profile of status effects it can cause, based on what kinetic energy its projectile imparts on target (for ranged, for example). Same for weapons that deal base Elemental like Sibear, Dark Dagger, Ignis or Detron now being able to cause different effects without that one to one relationship.

And effects that are relatable, would then be on a spectrum along the lines of how we have orange and red crits. Confusion would be an aspect of Weaken in how enemies respond to getting wounded. Stun, Stagger, Knockback, Knockdown would be the other spectrum of effects on a target that in the case of melee, should even have greater player agency on moves and combos we'd execute. Bleed, Armor failure (corrode) and Shield failures (disrupt) would then have a different interplay in how they relate to enemies.

An enemy could then gain a set of resistances and weaknesses to various effects, as they do with flat damage. So a Bursa would continue to resist any form of stagger or knockdown yet also be vulnerable to Shield disruption and Armor failure regardless of the weapon used on the Bursa. A Sibear dealing Cold damage should still be able to crush, causing internal damage to a target, and a Dark Dagger should have a chance to shred through layers of kevlar polymer if not the Grineer steel plates for example.

I hope that helps with what I mean for evolving Status

 

 

With the Operator, the basic idea is determine what powers are there, and how they manifest, so my favored idea is that since being rescued from Lua, that the Operator has remained on the Ship, the Orbiter.

And so what exists in combat is an astral projection caused by the mind of the operator (think of Neo and the Matrix) that gets disrupted and requires concentration by the Operator to re-manifest when damage dissipates the projection. And so the Operator can learn to cast different projections with time and training, I'd rather see that than know that the Operator is teleporting on and off the ship!

Edited May 23, 2018 by o.0-