Change Ember

[(PSN)whoistimjones]

Embers 4th ability is exactly(if not better, which it is) why you changed Mesa, Ash, Excalibur and Saryn, so why is Ember still running around with an ability that takes than the 4 frames I mentioned that all have been reworked. Hers actually takes less work and kills more. Ash had a cap of 18 Ember has no cap so why is she allowed to have an ability that Mesa, Ash, Excalibur and Saryn are not? Her 4 needs to be brought in line with the others frames and require just as much work as everyone else.

[Kyryo]

Because ember is reduced by armor, in normal content (lv 100-120) she can't do much.

Still, just like you, i don't understand why she has been untouched all this time while they heartlessly destroyed ash.

Also, this might be because ember is worth a lot of plats, and even if one does not think about it, a lot of ppl BUY PLAT to buy her from players, making DE earn money.

Or, it might be because not many ppl are crying about her as they did with the others... 

i...

dunno honestly....

[Echoes]

What do you mean by cap? I'm sure you can't hit more than 5 targets with her 4th, that is a cap.

And yeah, w/e, she "needs" a rework but not as bad as some other frames..

 

8 minutes ago, (PS4)whoistimjones said:

why is she allowed to have an ability that Mesa, Ash, Excalibur and Saryn are not?

Why is frost allowed to do so? Why is miraged allowrd to do so?... you got the wrong question there

[topsickrat]

make wof explosions do lower flat dmg and low % max health based dmg

[Raynalle]

maybe her power can grow in reange and damage like banshee with some syndacate mod, so she can do a lot more damage even in serius mission, a mod for her first for make the fireball set on fire the enemy and if other come close to them they will go on fire too, and for the second a rework for put that on the ground so all the enemy who pass from there get affected.

but ember itself is quite balance already so this is why, ash back then totally was broken, other then spam 4 the other ability wasn't really use, now at least you know 1 can remove 150% of the enemy armor in less than second with the syndacate mod, the second can last 21 second of invisibility, and the 3° one can kill enemy tank easy.

ember is good for low mission so maybe she just need good syndacate mod for damage no only ground controll like pretty much now, even her ability are good together.

 

[SilentLogix]

you can do more dmg with equinox even with just the slash DOT at the same content level most people use ember in, you can easily turn any warframe into a high range high dmg build, ember is very squishy at anything other than low level content unless the person knows how to play her well as she cant heal herself with skills, cant give herself damage reduction and has a low duration stun.

 

equinox (50m range at max,no dmg limit on recast, no target cap, can self heal in other form)

ember in (42m range at max,5 tagets at a time,low dmg high cc, no self heal, low duration stun)

Saryn (42m miasma max range, 661 dmg/s at 180 strength, no target cap, 44m spores, can heal herself with augment)

Mesa, still deals high dmg, takes little dmg with shatter shield at 95% dmg reduction

Ash... need to say more? he can 1 shot enemies at any level with his teleport augment and a dagger and gain invisibility

Excalibur, can still deal high dmg (insane dmg with augment and correct build) and a high range aoe blind further increasing his dmg

[(PSN)whoistimjones]

1 hour ago, Echoes said:

What do you mean by cap? I'm sure you can't hit more than 5 targets with her 4th, that is a cap.

And yeah, w/e, she "needs" a rework but not as bad as some other frames..

 

Why is frost allowed to do so? Why is miraged allowrd to do so?... you got the wrong question there

Hit per use is different than per tick. She has no per use cap.

Yeah, she's does need one as much as the others because her 4th is just like Ash pre-nerf.

I dont have anything wrong here, her 4th does exactly what Ash, Saryn, Mesa and Excalibur did yet she has gone untouched, why is the right question.

1 hour ago, Raynalle said:

maybe her power can grow in reange and damage like banshee with some syndacate mod, so she can do a lot more damage even in serius mission, a mod for her first for make the fireball set on fire the enemy and if other come close to them they will go on fire too, and for the second a rework for put that on the ground so all the enemy who pass from there get affected.

but ember itself is quite balance already so this is why, ash back then totally was broken, other then spam 4 the other ability wasn't really use, now at least you know 1 can remove 150% of the enemy armor in less than second with the syndacate mod, the second can last 21 second of invisibility, and the 3° one can kill enemy tank easy.

ember is good for low mission so maybe she just need good syndacate mod for damage no only ground controll like pretty much now, even her ability are good together.

 

Just because a mission is low level doesn't mean her 4th isnt broken. Mesa didn't scale in to high level nor could she move at any speed while doing her 4 and still got changed.

1 hour ago, SilentLogix said:

you can do more dmg with equinox even with just the slash DOT at the same content level most people use ember in, you can easily turn any warframe into a high range high dmg build, ember is very squishy at anything other than low level content unless the person knows how to play her well as she cant heal herself with skills, cant give herself damage reduction and has a low duration stun.

 

equinox (50m range at max,no dmg limit on recast, no target cap, can self heal in other form)

ember in (42m range at max,5 tagets at a time,low dmg high cc, no self heal, low duration stun)

Saryn (42m miasma max range, 661 dmg/s at 180 strength, no target cap, 44m spores, can heal herself with augment)

Mesa, still deals high dmg, takes little dmg with shatter shield at 95% dmg reduction

Ash... need to say more? he can 1 shot enemies at any level with his teleport augment and a dagger and gain invisibility

Excalibur, can still deal high dmg (insane dmg with augment and correct build) and a high range aoe blind further increasing his dmg

None of that changes the fact that Ember just activates her 4 and doesn't have to do anything else. Just because Equinox does more damage doesn't change the fact that her 4 requires no effort at all.

[Karthunk]

She is nowhere near the level of power that Ash was at pre-nerf. Ash was press 4 and everything within range, no matter level, was dead.

Saying Mesa doesn't/didn't scale into high levels shows that you have no idea what your talking about.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Karthunk

[Callback]

Or we could just make Ash and Mesa fun again.

 

People forget that Mesa's old ult was not that strong, due to limited sources of scaling.  New version benefits amazingly from secondary mods.  Old version struggled to solo 20 waves of T4D.  And that was before the channeling changes where she could run a 0 duration build and be ok with it.  Now it takes further build consideration to create a sustained ultimate on her, leading to lower output than pre-change.  She was strong but had a cap to her effective level range just like ember does.  If she got a new room clear mode it would have to be like the old one and not scale with gun mods.

 

And Ash...  Ash is just bad now.  He was never amazing to begin with but he really needs something decent in his kit.  Even before his kit was basically just ult and fatal teleport.  Now he just has FT but there are tons of other frames that open up finishers with better fleshed out kits.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Callback

[(PSN)whoistimjones]

1 hour ago, Karthunk said:

She is nowhere near the level of power that Ash was at pre-nerf. Ash was press 4 and everything within range, no matter level, was dead.

Saying Mesa doesn't/didn't scale into high levels shows that you have no idea what your talking about.

Or you just dont know what high level is. Fyi; 60 isnt high. Just because Ash scaled great doesn't change the fact that her 4 requires no effort. You're the one who doesn't know you're talking about.

1 hour ago, Callback said:

Or we could just make Ash and Mesa fun again.

 

People forget that Mesa's old ult was not that strong, due to limited sources of scaling.  New version benefits amazingly from secondary mods.  Old version struggled to solo 20 waves of T4D.  And that was before the channeling changes where she could run a 0 duration build and be ok with it.  Now it takes further build consideration to create a sustained ultimate on her, leading to lower output than pre-change.  She was strong but had a cap to her effective level range just like ember does.  If she got a new room clear mode it would have to be like the old one and not scale with gun mods.

 

And Ash...  Ash is just bad now.  He was never amazing to begin with but he really needs something decent in his kit.  Even before his kit was basically just ult and fatal teleport.  Now he just has FT but there are tons of other frames that open up finishers with better fleshed out kits.

This is someone who knows what they're talking about.

[DeltaPangaea]

Ember's damage falls off a lot faster than Peacemaker did. Peacemaker had a much bigger range. Peacemaker hits a lot FASTER.

I mean honestly, I feel like Peacemaker's change sucked since it made the ability less cool. No more sick posing, having to faff around with the targeting circle... It just ain't the same.

[Sasuda]

Ember doesn't need a nerf, her limit of targets does all that it needs to. You're either good enough to get around it (the required skill level is low it's not hard to beat WoF for damage), or you use a frame that does it even better than Ember. Could it more more engaging and fun though? Yeah, wouldn't be easy as pie and other frames should probably have priority to get worked on first. But I don't want to lose the ability to deal damage while focusing primarily on complex movement possible, because it really isn't much damage. Ember is actually more about moving well, and managing abilities than outputting big damage. She's good damage only for really early game. And even then she can be outdone.
 

[Neptlude]

3 hours ago, Sasuda said:

Ember doesn't need a nerf, her limit of targets does all that it needs to. You're either good enough to get around it (the required skill level is low it's not hard to beat WoF for damage), or you use a frame that does it even better than Ember. Could it more more engaging and fun though? Yeah, wouldn't be easy as pie and other frames should probably have priority to get worked on first. But I don't want to lose the ability to deal damage while focusing primarily on complex movement possible, because it really isn't much damage. Ember is actually more about moving well, and managing abilities than outputting big damage. She's good damage only for really early game. And even then she can be outdone.
 

Not a nerf but she still need a rework. She is boring to play in her regular build.

 

-Give her "Heat" system

The more she uses her abilities it creates heat counts that increases her overall fire damages

 

- Remove her fireball

Replace it with a flame thrower ability that gets stronger the longer you use it as it builds up heat. Maybe let it use pistol mods too....

 

-Accelerant is okay I guess

 

-Change 3rd Skill from fireblast to World on fire.

Cover the area with world on fire. This will make world on fire a stationary and defensive ability. lower overall damage a bit but adds fire quake aug innate.

 

-Give her a salted Flame Great sword

Her 4th ability is now a salted great sword, and when using charge attack unleashes all stored up heat creating a huge fireblast on steroids...  

 

[MobyTheDuck]

Yet another 'please nerf Ember, she kills more than me on low level missions' thread. I'll copypaste what I said on the other threads.

Quote

 

Ember cant steamroll mid/high level content with WoF alone. If anything, a competent Ember player that put a few formas on her knows how to use her skills with weapons equiped with heat damage.

The synergy around her skills is what makes her strong. While Ember loses damage pretty fast due armor, she still has amazing CC potential with both heat procs and Accelerant. Weapons like the Ignis also helps her to keep that damage high, you really wont go far with only WoF. Any frame with good CC and a Ignis can just destroy everything (even faster with a good riven).

Even if they did nerf Ember, people like you would then go after Frost because 'lol avalanche has huge range and requires no skill', Equinox (Day Mode) because its 'press 4 to win, no skill lolololol', Excal because 'lol he can just cleave everything, no skill', Nezha because 'lol his 4 goes through walls, no skill', Nova because 'her 4 plus 2 is easy mode lol no skill', Octavia because 'lol she only has timers and deployables, no skill'

If you play on public, you are agreeing that anyone can bring anything, no matter how easy it makes the current mission. You are also free to leave the mission any time you want.

 

And to add to that, Ember does has a cap, she can only hit around 4 or 5 targets.

[Neptlude]

Just now, MobyTheDuck said:

Yet another 'please nerf Ember, she kills more than me on low level missions' thread. I'll copypaste what I said on the other threads.

And to add to that, Ember does has a cap, she can only hit around 4 or 5 targets.

We want change not a nerf....

Make her play style more  interactive. Ember is one of the best looking frames out there, but her skills are flat out boring... she needs some good balancing from low level to high levels.

[MobyTheDuck]

1 minute ago, Neptlude said:

We want change not a nerf....

Make her play style more  interactive. Ember is one of the best looking frames out there, but her skills are flat out boring... she needs some good balancing from low level to high levels.

I've played enough to know you dont "want change" because of "boring skills".

Mag, Ash, Saryn. All these suffered from the same problem people attack Ember now. Rework came, nerfed skills, made synergy overcomplicated, but didnt fix the problems they had.

But its ok, they cant make low level content trivial anymore! As I said, if they do "rework" Ember's 4, people will go after Equinox, Frost, Gara, Nova, Nezha, Rhino, Excalibur, etc etc, because they can get kills easily on low level missions.

[Neptlude]

1 minute ago, MobyTheDuck said:

I've played enough to know you dont "want change" because of "boring skills".

Mag, Ash, Saryn. All these suffered from the same problem people attack Ember now. Rework came, nerfed skills, made synergy overcomplicated, but didnt fix the problems they had.

But its ok, they cant make low level content trivial anymore! As I said, if they do "rework" Ember's 4, people will go after Equinox, Frost, Gara, Nova, Nezha, Rhino, Excalibur, etc etc, because they can get kills easily on low level missions.

Still doesnt chage the fact that Ember isnt as good as the other frames at higher level....

 

Also I love the changes on Saryn and Mag, and wish they would make frame like this than just a 1 button wonder... (I dont use ash even before the rework) 

[MobyTheDuck]

1 hour ago, Neptlude said:

Still doesnt chage the fact that Ember isnt as good as the other frames at higher level....

 

Also I love the changes on Saryn and Mag, and wish they would make frame like this than just a 1 button wonder... (I dont use ash even before the rework) 

I guess you didnt read the part where I said Ember cant do higher levels with WoF alone. She works just fine on all levels, you just need to know how to use her.

People need to learn that Ember can kill with guns too. Heat damage has terrible falloff against armor, but all that people see when Ember got kills = WoF is op. I could clean rooms just as easy with a Nidus and a gun with punchtrough, a well placed Octavia, Rhino with a good melee. Pretty much everything is viable (unless you are trying to do high levels with the Flux Rifle and a Loki modded for STR)

As I said, these threads are all the same. Someone with Ember goes on a low level mission and kills everything, someone goes to the forum and makes a thread about 'ember is easy mode, rework her so isnt one button to win!' Every. Time.

[Neptlude]

1 minute ago, MobyTheDuck said:

I guess you didnt read the part where I said Ember cant do higher levels with WoF alone. She works just fine on all levels, you just need to know how to use her.

People need to learn that Ember can kill with guns too. Heat damage has terrible falloff against armor, but all that people see when Ember got kills = WoF is op. I could clean rooms just as easy with a Nidus and a gun with punchtrough, a well placed Octavia, Rhino with a good melee. Pretty much everything is viable (unless you are trying to do high levels with the Flux Rifle and a Loki modded for STR)

As I said, these threads are all the same. Someone with Ember goes on a low level mission and kills everything, someone goes to the forum and makes a thread about 'ember is easy mode, rework her so isnt one button to win!' Every. Time.

As I said "isnt as good as the other frames at higher level" She still needs a bit of rebalancing

My Melee ember can do level 130 heavies, but requires more effort than other frames... Yet my other frames can handle the same enemies easier...

 

Also this is why I suggested to make her WoF as a deployable stationary ability so it wont be just "turn on wof and race to extraction point game..."

[nerfinator6]

But for anything above lvl 40, she's pretty useless. She doesn't need a "change" (nerf), you just need to play higher level stuff.

[GinKenshin]

3 minutes ago, Neptlude said:

As I said "isnt as good as the other frames at higher level" She still needs a bit of rebalancing

My Melee ember can do level 130 heavies, but requires more effort than other frames... Yet my other frames can handle the same enemies easier...

 

Also this is why I suggested to make her WoF as a deployable stationary ability so it wont be just "turn on wof and race to extraction point game..."

that way it's still a 'set it and forget it' ability, you just have to use it more. this doesn't fix anything really 

and to the OP. before all of these changes to the frames you mentioned, she was the worst dmg dealer, she wasn't as OP as these others were, so it makes sense that she's the last in line. and DE knows she has a problem, and would like a rework, but as with many things things like this, they don't have the time....hell focus needed a rework badly and they only did one after 2 years 

you didn't make any suggestions here, and the topic and 'problem' is known to DE, so this thread is basically redundant 


personally, there's no problem with her. dmg doesn't mean anything in this game unless it scales. hell I could say day equinox or loki is more OP than ember. and you don't have to 'do something', at least when enemy lvls start ramping up, you need to use your weps and cast your 2nd, or your 3rd if s*** gets real.....your whole argument is based on a specific playstyle for ember on very low lvl missions 

[Neptlude]

6 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

that way it's still a 'set it and forget it' ability, you just have to use it more. this doesn't fix anything really 
 

Ah but it costs more energy now than current WoF :D

 

I still want my salted flamming greatsword .- .

[GinKenshin]

1 hour ago, Neptlude said:

Ah but it costs more energy now than current WoF :D

 

I still want my salted flamming greatsword .- .

They can just increase the energy consumption then >.> 

[Andaius]

22 hours ago, (PS4)whoistimjones said:

Hit per use is different than per tick. She has no per use cap.

Yeah, she's does need one as much as the others because her 4th is just like Ash pre-nerf.

I dont have anything wrong here, her 4th does exactly what Ash, Saryn, Mesa and Excalibur did yet she has gone untouched, why is the right question.

Just because a mission is low level doesn't mean her 4th isnt broken. Mesa didn't scale in to high level nor could she move at any speed while doing her 4 and still got changed.

None of that changes the fact that Ember just activates her 4 and doesn't have to do anything else. Just because Equinox does more damage doesn't change the fact that her 4 requires no effort at all.

Woah woah there Pre rework ash? Really? I don't see WoF preventing other team mates for doing any damage at all to a target hit by WoF. I don't see her hitting more then 5 targets at any given time unlike Ash hitting pretty much unlimited targets in a big area. You have to do plenty even IF your onl;y trying to kill things with ONLY WoF. First off it shutsdown all energy regen so your on a timer. You have to find the enemy, and you'll have to get in range. (shotgun range 20m default IIRC.) Once you get in range you have to survive getting attacked until they get in range. Then you'll have to deal with any heavy armor units that can weather your WoF.

WoF has been only a supression tool. It weeds out the fodder units so you can focus your attention to the heavies and VIP targets. Ember always survived on mobility and close assault weaponry. AFK WoF is only ever possible if your play very low level content, and have a brain dead team.

[Terrornaut]

1 hour ago, Andaius said:

Woah woah there Pre rework ash? Really? I don't see WoF preventing other team mates for doing any damage at all to a target hit by WoF. I don't see her hitting more then 5 targets at any given time unlike Ash hitting pretty much unlimited targets in a big area. You have to do plenty even IF your onl;y trying to kill things with ONLY WoF. First off it shutsdown all energy regen so your on a timer. You have to find the enemy, and you'll have to get in range. (shotgun range 20m default IIRC.) Once you get in range you have to survive getting attacked until they get in range. Then you'll have to deal with any heavy armor units that can weather your WoF.

WoF has been only a supression tool. It weeds out the fodder units so you can focus your attention to the heavies and VIP targets. Ember always survived on mobility and close assault weaponry. AFK WoF is only ever possible if your play very low level content, and have a brain dead team.

Really this.

I have about 800 hours on Ember on different builds, mainly a couple though, in basically every situation you can be in, and I still cringe when I see Embers because there are plenty of Ember players that don't know what to do with her.

The damage on WoF is pretty serious. People forget that listed damage on wof is for one single tick, and you get about 3-4 per second.  Its really 4x the damage listed in the screen.  Then, you have accelerant.  If you are playing around WoF and not around Accelerant, you don't know math and how damage works in warframe and aren't even attempting to be efficient.  If you aren't putting heat on your guns on top of that, you are playing 1/4 of Ember and basically ignoring her kit, theme, and potential because of braindeath.  Don't make posts about Ember if you're doing this, that's like modding Loki for strength.

In wide open areas, she will get outdamaged, sure.  In high level content though, she still scales extremely well, only now she needs corrosive procs or someone else to strip armor to go back to trivializing enemies.  There are issues I have with fireball and fireblast which will be brought up in another thread later today, but, if you say Ember doesn't scale and can't do damage at high levels, you're speaking about something without having basic knowledge about it.