Rhino's Armor Outdated?

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

I'm not gonna lie, I'm an avid Rhino fan. I just love being the unstoppable tank in a game and never having to worry about dying. Rhino certainly fulfills this role aesthetically, with him being most built of the Warframes, but he oddly lacks this feature in practice. True his "iron skin" can make him immune to damage and status, but without said ability, he is actually mildly on the squishy side.

Rhino's base armor is 190, and his Prime is 275. This ranks Rhino in the 15th and 8th places in terms of armor among Warfames, respectively. Despite fulfilling the role of a solo juggernaut, his actually survivability is rather limited; and felt on higher levels. In sorties enemies will melt right past Rhino's iron skin and make little work with his shields and health. Perhaps this is because he's an older Warframe with older stats? All I know is that he falls just short of his intended role.

Thoughts?

[MirageKnight]

You're forgetting Rhino has better than average shields to soak a copious amount of incoming fire, with Armor and HP only kicking in when enemies are able to chew through said shields. I wouldn't mind seeing Rhino get his armor buffed to 200 and Rhino Prime's armor buffed to 300, but he honestly doesn't NEED it. In a balanced environment, Rhino is quite fine in terms of survivability when built to his strengths - armor and most importantly heavy base shields and Iron Skin. This brings me to Sorties...

Sorties are not even remotely balanced and aren't supposed to be. There's absurd, exponential damage scaling with enemies and they will melt through just about anything - not just Iron Skin - and as such, Sorties should NEVER be considered in ANY balance discussion. They're intended to provide ever increasing resistance to player progress, to the point where the player is finally convinced to say "oh screw this, I'm out of here" and extracts. Anything that's capable of trivializing THAT kind of content is arguably and stupidly OP and broken and needs to be reeled in.

Disclaimer: Rhino fan here. Rhino's probably my most used 'Frame ever. And honestly, I think his armor only needs minor tweaks.

 

[(XBOX)VanHaz]

I would agree, his armor is a bit lacking compared to many other "tank" frames such as inaros or most especially valkyr, but think honestly doesn't function solely as a tank either. With the combination of his iron skin immunizing him to prove and knockdown, his offensive buff, and his heavy cc, he almost fits more or as an offensive support frame, somewhere between tank and caster. I would agree that his armor could use a little tweaking, but honestly not too much, as I feel he is as is readily viable for most any content. I actually have a lot more fun with rhino using him with a speed/cc build, especially so with varazin (focus 1.0)

That all said, appearance wise, he definitely seems like he should be the tankiest of them all.

[TKDancer]

7 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

You're forgetting Rhino has better than average shields to soak a copious amount of incoming fire

except.. not? 1 shot and there go ur shields

[MirageKnight]

52 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

except.. not? 1 shot and there go ur shields

That only happens in high level Sorties and vs particular enemies (Bombards) and you know that.

Sorties don't count for balance discussions for very clear and valid reasons I stated earlier and you're clearly arguing from the position of someone that routinely does Sorties.

So your argument is null and void.

[TKDancer]

38 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

That only happens in high level Sorties and vs particular enemies (Bombards) and you know that.

Sorties don't count for balance discussions for very clear and valid reasons I stated earlier and you're clearly arguing from the position of someone that routinely does Sorties.

So your argument is null and void.

not really, a level 30-40 corpus tech or a scrambus is enough to destroy anyones shield in a split second, same for napalms/hyekka masters also grineer slash procs/infested toxic procs

then we have toxic ancients who just... ignore shields and one-shot u even at mid levels due to that toxic roar

 

shields are bad, scoob

 

also sorties should count for balance issues, they arent endless, they are part of "high level" content

what shouldnt count is the scaling on endless when u are facing level 2367 enemies

Edited November 28, 2017 by TKDancer

[Hoth]

On 11/27/2017 at 7:04 PM, MirageKnight said:

That only happens in high level Sorties and vs particular enemies (Bombards) and you know that.

Sorties don't count for balance discussions for very clear and valid reasons I stated earlier and you're clearly arguing from the position of someone that routinely does Sorties.

So your argument is null and void.

"You play sorties so your argument is invalid"

What

Of course sorties should be taken into account when balancing for endgame.

As for @OP, try an Ironclad charge build. I've gotten upwards of 150k Iron Skin whilst using it. 

[(PSN)B2daMac]

I think a lot of the time you forget there are other factors that can compensate for Rhino's Armor.  When Oberon can boost your base armor in two different ways which your iron skin scales from, you have a mod that adds to your iron skin health, and not to mention you have a a few seconds of invincibility so your health can scale to the damage being delivered.  if you hard CC and play aggressively Rhino can easily have enough iron skin to last him well past level 100 enemies.  

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)B2daMac said:

I think a lot of the time you forget there are other factors that can compensate for Rhino's Armor.  When Oberon can boost your base armor in two different ways which your iron skin scales from, you have a mod that adds to your iron skin health, and not to mention you have a a few seconds of invincibility so your health can scale to the damage being delivered.  if you hard CC and play aggressively Rhino can easily have enough iron skin to last him well past level 100 enemies.  

This is true, however my intention is more to show how deceptively squishy Rhino is without abilities. Most tank frames have Armor of 300+, so I find it weird that the original tank frame only caps out a 275. Yes his iron skin is tough and his shields are high, but once those two things are out, he goes down rather quickly.

[MirageKnight]

3 hours ago, BHoth said:

Of course sorties should be taken into account when balancing for endgame.

They absolutely should NOT. Anything capable of cheesing high level sorties is OP to the point of being broken and needs to be reeled in.

Why?

DE themselves stated that Sorties are intended to provide some "challenge" to those that want it, with the goal of ramping up friction and resistance to "progress" to the point where a player with even the most powerful loadout will eventually call it quits. They also said that weapons, frames and abilities are intended to be balanced for use on normal star chart missions, not high level endless runs and sorties.

So again. NO. Sorties are designed to be unbalanced, so none of our gear or abilities should be balanced around sorties.

[TKDancer]

*CRIES IN NEZHA*

[TKDancer]

26 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

They absolutely should NOT. Anything capable of cheesing high level sorties is OP to the point of being broken and needs to be reeled in.

Why?

DE themselves stated that Sorties are intended to provide some "challenge" to those that want it, with the goal of ramping up friction and resistance to "progress" to the point where a player with even the most powerful loadout will eventually call it quits. They also said that weapons, frames and abilities are intended to be balanced for use on normal star chart missions, not high level endless runs and sorties.

So again. NO. Sorties are designed to be unbalanced, so none of our gear or abilities should be balanced around sorties.

most people who are done with starchart just do endless fissures or their daily sorties + ostrom bounties

 

plus a lot of the content is ridiculously unbalanced for the star-chart anyways

 

examples:frost, ember, saryn, MAG are some frames that can destroy huge ammounts of enemies all around them with a cast on a good chunk of the starchart

 

hell, if u think the game was being balanced around star chart why can we deal tens of thousands of damage with our weapons?

 

so yes, sorties and final tier bounties should be taken in consideration when discussing balance, but sorties should be discussed taking in consideration how the modifiers work

[MirageKnight]

9 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

plus a lot of the content is ridiculously unbalanced for the star-chart anyways

That is one of the WORST excuses I've heard of to date. "X and Y is broken, so why care about Z being broken as well?"

I swear, people like you that endorse and desire power creep for "reasons" are part of the reason why the game's in the sad state that it is.

12 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

so yes, sorties and final tier bounties should be taken in consideration when discussing balance, but sorties should be discussed taking in consideration how the modifiers work

NO it shouldn't. As I explained earlier, Sorties and high level scaling are meant to provide an obstacle to players, an obstacle that's meant to ultimately stop continued play. Players should not be rewarded for being try-hards, glory-hogs, and masochists - and they certainly shouldn't be given the ability to circumvent the very things that are meant to restrict them.

17 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

hell, if u think the game was being balanced around star chart why can we deal tens of thousands of damage with our weapons?

I'm saying that the devs have the intent that our content SHOULD be balanced around the star chart, but the devs tend to be a bit clueless about achieving that balance. Thanks to hardcore types whining and DE being unable to figure out the proper course of action, we have power creep galore and a race between us and enemies to see who can cheese the most.

You people are incapable of realizing how bad catering to power fantasies can really be for a game.

[SpyGhostOtissss]

Ironclad charge period

just look it up on youtube you'll get what i mean

[Myrkek]

Iron clad charge is all well and good, but on it's own it only delays the same issues, ie: as soon as it's gone you're dead. I've found Iron Shrapnel to just be better for long term survival overall. I personally consider it a requirement on all my rhino builds.

[Psycho-002]

58 minutes ago, Myrkek said:

Iron clad charge is all well and good, but on it's own it only delays the same issues, ie: as soon as it's gone you're dead. I've found Iron Shrapnel to just be better for long term survival overall. I personally consider it a requirement on all my rhino builds.

I'm guessing you're not understanding the benefit of Ironclad Charge.

Iron Skin takes your current armour value and basically beefs it up some and makes it into a second health bar.

Ironclad Charge multiplies your current armour value by a certain percentage based on the number of enemies you hit with it.

Smack into a bunch of enemies with the augmented charge, then use your massively boosted armour value to activate Iron Skin for nigh-indestructible EHP

Just thought I'd give some context if that usage was missing.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Psycho-002

[Myrkek]

1 minute ago, Psycho-002 said:

I'm guessing you're not understanding the benefit of Ironclad Charge.

Iron Skin takes your current armour value and basically beefs it up some and makes it into a second health bar.

Ironclad Charge multiplies your current armour value by a certain percentage based on the number of enemies you hit with it.

Smack into a bunch of enemies with the augmented charge, then use your massively boosted armour value to activate Iron Skin for nigh-indestructible EHP

I understand quite well the benefits of iron clad charge, Rhino's my favorite and most used frame, and I've used several variations of the build. And it still needs iron shrapnel to function well. 100k+ iron skin is all well and good, but either you're in a mission where is laughably OP, or it'll eventually go down. And if you're fighting things strong enough to take it down you gon' die as soon as it drops. Not to mention what do you do at the beginning of the mission, just not iron skin until you charge into a group? And what about if you get a better charge? Without the ability to recast iron skin, you're more or less screwed.

Iron clad charge is an excellent mod, iron shrapnel is a god damn linchpin that actually lets Rhino be viable at high levels.

[ACULonSeer]

On 11/27/2017 at 3:17 PM, (Xbox One)alchemPyro said:

I'm not gonna lie, I'm an avid Rhino fan. I just love being the unstoppable tank in a game and never having to worry about dying. Rhino certainly fulfills this role aesthetically, with him being most built of the Warframes, but he oddly lacks this feature in practice. True his "iron skin" can make him immune to damage and status, but without said ability, he is actually mildly on the squishy side.

Rhino's base armor is 190, and his Prime is 275. This ranks Rhino in the 15th and 8th places in terms of armor among Warfames, respectively. Despite fulfilling the role of a solo juggernaut, his actually survivability is rather limited; and felt on higher levels. In sorties enemies will melt right past Rhino's iron skin and make little work with his shields and health. Perhaps this is because he's an older Warframe with older stats? All I know is that he falls just short of his intended role.

Thoughts?

Would 25 more armor really make a difference though? Even as Valkyr i was 2-shot by the Valkyr Specter in the relay. Armor didnt really help much in that fight. 

I think the main reason Rhino doesnt feel like a tank is because he isnt able to defend his teammates with any of his abilities. Sure he can boost damage, but Atlas is the one you call if you need a wall put up. Sure giving Rhino a defensive shield of some sort would pretty much make him exactly like Gara and Frost, but it would help fulfill the tank role more. 

[Psycho-002]

14 minutes ago, Myrkek said:

I understand quite well the benefits of iron clad charge, Rhino's my favorite and most used frame, and I've used several variations of the build. And it still needs iron shrapnel to function well. 100k+ iron skin is all well and good, but either you're in a mission where is laughably OP, or it'll eventually go down. And if you're fighting things strong enough to take it down you gon' die as soon as it drops. Not to mention what do you do at the beginning of the mission, just not iron skin until you charge into a group? And what about if you get a better charge? Without the ability to recast iron skin, you're more or less screwed.

Iron clad charge is an excellent mod, iron shrapnel is a god damn linchpin that actually lets Rhino be viable at high levels.

Personally, I carry both in my basic build, but that's not to say that Ironclad Charge can't function without Shrapnel.

Makes it a hell lot easier, yes, but not impossible. The minimum amount of enemies you'd want to be pegging for a decent buff is 3, I'd say. You'd just have to be prepared to charge again when your Iron Skin is running low.

I run a range/power Rhino with both augments, so my usual plan is to ram headlong into the first group of enemies I see, Iron Skin and run off to the objective. The option for Shrapnel is just a good backup plan when I know I'll need to really tank some hits.

[Myrkek]

29 minutes ago, Psycho-002 said:

Personally, I carry both in my basic build, but that's not to say that Ironclad Charge can't function without Shrapnel.

Makes it a hell lot easier, yes, but not impossible. The minimum amount of enemies you'd want to be pegging for a decent buff is 3, I'd say. You'd just have to be prepared to charge again when your Iron Skin is running low.

I run a range/power Rhino with both augments, so my usual plan is to ram headlong into the first group of enemies I see, Iron Skin and run off to the objective. The option for Shrapnel is just a good backup plan when I know I'll need to really tank some hits.

That sounds entirely too unreliable for my tastes. For one it assumes there's going to be a decent cluster of enemies to charge into AND iron skin drops within the buff duration AND you survive long enough to cast it. There have been plenty of times when my iron skin dropped and I've died faster than I could hit the button. To me, being able to recast iron skin when I choose to is immensely more valuable. But then again, I'm also of the opinion that it's not worth keeping the iron clad buff unless I hit 5-7 enemies, preferably more (gotta love the ferrox)

And that's the other thing, iron shrapnel makes iron skin rhino's most damaging ability, hands down. Have you ever exploded a 100k iron skin into a mass of enemies while under a 100% roar? Then recast and be right back at 100k? (or close to it) It's nice.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Myrkek

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

I think people are missing the point of my initial argument: Rhino's base armor is too low for a tank-frame. Yes, he can buff it up. Yes, he can give himself a layer of extra health. Yes, he has really good augments. BUT he within himself is abnormally squishy. Back when enemies didn't go past level 30 this made sense, but now anything past Uranus demands more than just the classics.

I'm not talking about a HUGE increase to armor, just enough to keep him competitive. Say 250 for basic Rhino and 350 for Prime. Big enough to make a difference in battle, but not to big to outshine other tank frames.

[TKDancer]

16 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

NO it shouldn't. As I explained earlier, Sorties and high level scaling are meant to provide an obstacle to players, an obstacle that's meant to ultimately stop continued play.

sorties dont have continued play my d00d, they arent endless

[(PSN)B2daMac]

On 12/8/2017 at 8:13 AM, (Xbox One)alchemPyro said:

I think people are missing the point of my initial argument: Rhino's base armor is too low for a tank-frame. Yes, he can buff it up. Yes, he can give himself a layer of extra health. Yes, he has really good augments. BUT he within himself is abnormally squishy. Back when enemies didn't go past level 30 this made sense, but now anything past Uranus demands more than just the classics.

I'm not talking about a HUGE increase to armor, just enough to keep him competitive. Say 250 for basic Rhino and 350 for Prime. Big enough to make a difference in battle, but not to big to outshine other tank frames.

i heard all of that but if he really had anymore base armor then he would be invincible since Iron skin scales off base armor and how much damage you take during the invulnerable period.  would extra armor be nice to have?  Yes, it would be but, as someone who mains Rhino he would just be way to powerful.  To fight what?  150 corrupted gunners that most of the player base won't ever see in their entire career of playing warframe?  We have to realize that even though we may play at obscenley high levels with niche builds most people will only forma their frame one time at best.

[MJ12]

I think the problems with Iron Skin are, besides scaling:

1. It needs an augment to achieve what should be base functionality (recasting)

2. It is only effective at high levels with another augment (Ironclad Charge).

Tbh I'd like it if Iron Skin was transformed into a personal Nyx Assimilate, more or less. Turn it on, and now when you would take damage to health, it's absorbed by Iron Skin at the cost of energy. If you need to balance it more, make it give reduced movement speed and bullet-jump velocity while on or something. Basically, think the Maximum Armor mode in Crysis.

 

Nyx's Assimilate lets you tank a whole lot of stuff, including Sortie Kela, so it might be slightly weaker functionally than Ironclad Charge Rhino build but it would be more consistent and not require 2 separate augments so....

Furthermore something like this would also synergize with armor and shields more organically. The shield synergy exists because so long as Rhino has shields, your Iron Skin wouldn't be eating damage and would be using its lower, passive drain. Armor would synergize as Iron Skin would prevent health damage at the cost of energy, which means having more armor means less energy lost per hit.

I think a lot of the early Warframes need to be revisited to update their powers to take advantage of new concepts which now exist in Warframe, such as press/hold powers, channeled powers, and so on. Obviously making new stuff is a priority and makes money but revising old stuff would be nice.