Zephyr Recommended Fixes

[LeopoldObelix]

I feel that although I have no authority on how to rework a warframe in game, I have played Zephyr a great deal, and I have a few suggestions as to how to "fix" her.

Though nothing is innately broken with Zephyr right now, there are two of her four abilities that feel rather useless. Divebomb, and Tornado.

Starting with Divebomb, I feel that the only reason this is in the game is to quickly return Zephyr to the ground, cancelling all momentum and dropping like a rock. This ability is utterly useless in all other regards, in damage and in utility, even with the Augment it feels like a waste of energy every time we press that button. This is my largest point and as such I feel that it will be helpful in moving forward:

Zephyr is floaty, and that isn't always good. Although I understand the gravity passive I feel that it is a hinderance at times, as no other warframes handle even relatively close to her. With the new Limbo rework and his void entry I began thinking, what if Zephyr had something on her roll as well?

 

Suggested Zephyr Passive: Gravity.

Similar to Limbo, this ability is triggered on a roll. It allows the player to alternate between a low-gravity mode and the standard warframe weight and gravity.

Doing this will allow players two things, firstly to regain her mobility in certain situations, as I feel a great deal of times I overshoot a door, getting stuck on top and having to back up and try again, as I am accustomed to standard warframe gravity whenever I am not playing her. This will also completely ELIMINATE Divebomb and all of its lack of usefullness. midair, Zephyr could now roll and regain her gravity, returning to the ground much quicker and more efficient than wasting energy on an ability. 

If you really want to be stingy than make in an ability, but Zephyr will still suffer for it in the long haul.

Divebomb is just an absolute pet peeve of mine, and ever since she released I've despised this ability. It helps no one, has no usefullness, and is a waste of energy and time.

To replace Divebomb I have options for new second ability that I feel is rather fair for Zephyr:

Razor Wind

Zephyr lacks offensive capability, and if she is to be a tank she either needs complimentary tanky abilities, or damage. This is the damage route.

Razor wind would be a warframe ability that sends out a slash of damage, speed effected by Turbulence's Augment for extra speed, and act similarly to a mix of Excalibur Exaulted Slash and Banshee's Pulse, pushing enemies backward (possibly ragdolling them) and dealing decent damage. This obviously doesn't have to deal Mesa levels of damage, but something to help her CC a bit better than she can now.

 

Gale

This would be the CC option of her abilities, allowing her to be a more effective Tank

Gale would be an area of effect ability, either placed down as a set item like a small Cyclone (similarly to the 4th ability I talk about later) or another ability specifically around Zephyr herself. 

This ability would slow enemy movement by power strength, and COULD act as a smaller Turbulence zone in which Allies can camp on, or place on an objective to keep it from harm. The CC for enemies and projectile/ Fire movement together could be slightly overpowered and may require tweaking, but it would be interesting to see it as a Toggleable ability to either place or keep on as an active effect. Toggling this on would obviously cause an energy drain and therefore require zephyr to have high efficiency to utilize this ability to its fullest, which I personally beleive can benefit her kit.

(Side note)

Zephyr as a whole seems to have multiple build options depending on what abilities determine what, but currently with her mediocre kit the only recommendable option is Duration builds, as it compliments most of her abilities currently and has no drawbacks. Implementing abilities that may want Power Strength or Efficiency may be helpful in making more versitile or differentiated build options.

 

The Problem with Tornadoes.

Currently, I feel that CC is an important part of Warframe, and as such CC that holds enemies in place or locks them out of a certain area is far more important than other CC abilities. As such Tornado functions as an absolute mess for all parties involved. I've actually screamed at my monitor when I pressed 4 on a Liberation mission out on the plains, as it flings enemies far and wide and then they lay there as if they are dead. The timer ticks down because I didn't kill the enemies that are "in the territory" and I lose. Thanks Tornado. 

But outside of this specific instance Tornado is innately messy. Arguably the worst CC ability in warframe now since Hydroid Tentacle Swarm was revamped to be slower, Tornado has 0 usage in keeping enemies in one spot. Even after they land and lie on the ground they are ragdolled, so if I fire at an enemy I can bounce their body around and miss even more shots on them if they are bulky enough. The status duration and coloration is interesting, but ultimately doesn't work. The effects barely last and half of the status spread feel useless in most cases.

The final cherry on top for this ability is the CAMERA SHAKE. Good lord I feel the rage returning just talking about it. Get too close to a Tornado and the camera freaks out like no other. I can't aim, can barely see, and whats more that is my own ability. I feel stupid for even using it, and I feel my teammates slowly getting their headset ready to make an angry comment for splattering the otherwise grouped enemies all across the map. It is painful to watch enemies that would otherwise be far better on the ground flung far and wide. I understand the ability the "strongest wind thingy" so it makes a good idea for an ability for a Wind warframe, but it cannot last. It has too many issues and causes even more to the team.

If you want To keep Tornado:

Dont make it CC. If you like the concept have it do a large amount more of damage, like Excalibur's Chromatic Blade, make it take on the damage type, BUT, dont make enemies fling around unless their its only their bodies.

OR, if for whatever reason you feel that Tornadoes need to fling enemies then make them deal damage. When the enemies ragdolls make them take damage like Operators do for distance fallen or travelled, that will at least make it more usable than a weak status effect spread across the enemy lines. Hell, even Mirage's Orb has more control than the Tornadoes. They go wherever they please and take their time doing it. 

If you dont want to keep Tornado:

We need a new final. The last ability in a warframe is supposed to wrap it all together in a neat package and finish its kit in a way that either synergizes well or is something complimentary to the playstyle in function. Zephyr seems like she wants to be a tank, what with her third ability and her high shields and moderate health. 

 

My suggested Fourth:

Cyclone:

Zephyr places a moderate to large cyclone (effected by range) that produces an area of effect that speeds player fire rate and melee attacks, and deals status effects to enemies within it's field of effect. 

This ability would not send enemies flying (but if could send corpses), helps the team as a whole and takes away the camera shake while keeping the status effect depending on the damage type pumped into the tornado. This will elleviate the stress that Tornado currently brings to players, and the headache we receive when activating it, purposefully or otherwise.

By keeping this, it makes less work for the Programmers, already utilizing the model for Tornado already implemented into the game, simply making it stationary. A great deal more could be done that I am not creative enough to think up, so please view this with an open mind and a ready hand to jump in and suggest more, or alternate abilities to rework her.

 

PLEASE feel free to comment and help me fix Zephyr. I love her style, I love her design, and I love half of her abilities. She's my second most used warframe and I want to see her succeed and not be left out because of her inability to function in a group. All comments and suggestions will be taken into account and I want her to be useful and live up to her full potential like she was meant to be from the start.

Edited November 30, 2017 by LeopoldObelix
Visual Clean-Ups and Additional Notes

[Birdframe_Prime]

Heyo! Rework thread number 601 (for those keeping count with me, join in!).

So, in case my humour is lost on everyone, I've been around a lot. made reworks, made fix threads, commented on hundreds of people's works and in some cases been far too over-the-top critical due to pre-existing bias and arguments.

And in light of that I'll not be putting in too much on this one. First there are standard disclaimers to be given, see the spoiler below, it's important for reworking frames in general.

Spoiler

In an interview in summer (2017) DE made the statement that reworks to frames will not feature new abilities or replacement abilities. The work involved, combined with the bugs with implementation, potential unintended exploits and the resulting huge community feedback/backlash, did them in when they did it with Limbo. This is why Oberon and Hydroid did not get new abilities or overhauls; All reworks will be done within the existing abilities of the frame.

That's not to say there might not be some switch-arounds, making one ability a 2 compared to a 3, like Mag, but no new abilities. Which I got quite upset about because it ruined a nearly perfectly researched, debated and worked through thread of mine that successfully moved Tailwind into her passive, put an upgraded Dive Bomb as her 1 ability and then put a fantastic directional CC cast on her 2 to balance the short-range radial CC on her 1. 

This is to say; you're stuck with Dive Bomb. Best make the most of it.

Another disclaimer is that I'm not kidding, this is the 601st thread I've read on the subject, I'm an old hand at this, and I have lots of experience judging and projecting outcomes of reworks. Please come join me on my own thread it you're interested in seeing about ten months of debate and discussion result in a rework thread that DE could implement within Zephyr's existing abilities and would get the most result out of it. The reason being that there are ideas there that took lots of people collectively arguing about concepts for a long time to come up with, and as a new reworker you may benefit from seeing the end results, particularly on very simple ones like Tailwind, and very extensive ones like Tornado.

Over here if you can stand my ramblings:

So, with those out of the way!

On to a quick rundown of your ideas.

Passive: A lot of people take issue with Zephyr's passive, it's considered by a portion of them to be one of the penalties for Nightmare mode missions, 'and so why would you use it as a passive?', and they want either to get rid of it, or realise that others like it and want a way to circumvent it.

You're not the first to suggest a toggle, like Limbo, although congrats on your absolute clear-headed notion that making it an ability would make things worse, but it's not something that people would actually enjoy this way either. People already complain that having a basic movement function that they spam to go longer distances quicker (especially in the new Plains setting) means they're constantly toggling the function on and off and they would rather just stay one way or the other for the duration of their travel time. Having every cycle of 'Bullet Jump > Jump > Roll > Slide' toggle you back and forth between low grav and full grav will throw off players every time they forget which one they did last, moreover the roll is also damage-reducing and is useful against enemies like Fire Eximus, allowing you to stay in the location you want to be instead of getting knocked down by a fire blast.

An idea that came to me via a combination of people was that 'people don't like having to press a button to restore or cancel a basic function' so the answer that we came up with between us was... to ignore the low gravity completely (actually, enhance it so that it extends aim glides and gives us way better control in the air, but that's besides the point).

What we came up with was simply to make traversal better without having to worry about hitting doorframes or over-shooting your target because you build in a new function we called 'landing'. Sounds simple, but here; you Tailwind into a walking surface (not a wall or geometry piece) at any angle steeper than a glancing hit (similar to Bullet Jump) then you just... cancel out of it. No heavy landing, no interruption to movement, you just un-tuck from the movement and walk on, run on, parkour on... anything. 1m above the surface at any angle that wouldn't count as 'I'm trying to go forwards' and the Tailwind cancels out and you can use it to preserve momentum or simply just stop exactly where you meant to be.

What this does, especially if you include little improvements to Tailwind like 'recasting in air has reduced cost', is make you actively Tailwind to the location you're going for, not somewhere vaguely near it or above it, knowing that you won't be penalised for a long duration Tailwind, because you'll land exactly where you mean to. Similarly when you're arcing up to hit above a door, you can interrupt that with a Tailwind, land, and continue through the door with no loss of momentum, and usually increase your traversal speed.

See what we're attempting to achieve there?

Gale: With the standard disclaimer already said, I'm a little unsure of this cast. On the one hand, a place-able object with an area slow is a good ability, I like it, the idea has cropped up before. As a toggle wearable to over-power Turbulence with a second cast that reduces the threat of melee (the trade-off weakness of Turbulence)... I don't agree that this would be a balanced ability.

For one thing I'm incredibly biased against toggle-drain abilities, they prevent all forms of energy restore apart from orbs, something Zephyr currently doesn't suffer from at all, and they are placed on abilities as limiting punishments in order to prevent over-use. If the ability isn't balanced and limited enough as a Duration cast, then I don't see it as a balanced cast. But that's my own bias. Also, seeing as this kind of cast would mean that to maximise it you would use Fleeting Expertise, in some capacity, reducing your overall Duration on your existing main defense... let's not, okay? Please?

The stationary slow field does have possibilities though.

Tornado: Again, aforementioned disclaimers. It's not a matter of wanting to keep Tornado, it's that DE want to keep Tornado. As a similar note; no rework has ever removed two abilities, they've changed them around, moved their functions elsewhere to make room, and then added the new ability in. Excal lost Super Jump and gained Exalted Blade, but he didn't lose the 3D movement because they put it on Slash Dash instead, so less energy and the same mobility. With Limbo he lost nothing at all, except the self damage buff in the Rift plane, where his 1 moved to his passive, and in the space left over from shuffling the rest he gained the new cast. Reworks add functionality, they almost never take it away. Except for Ember... poor Ember...

The issues you've mentioned with Tornado aren't wrong, although they are incomplete. If you want two of the biggest problems with Tornado, with the first being how chaotic it is, would be the Unreliability of its mechanics and the Inconsistency of its successful application of those mechanics.

In short, not only is Tornado mess, it also wanders off, never staying where you actually need it, seeks enemies slowly and often into places where it then can't 'see' new enemies to seek, or tries to seek through a wall... and when it actually does catch an enemy, it can lift them from any duration between 2 seconds and the entire rest of the cast. Of course, the 'entire rest of the cast' problem is something else, where it sits an enemy on the very top of a funnel, against geometry, thinking it has thrown it, constantly seeking this enemy, but dealing the minimum damage possible because the enemy isn't technically 'in' the funnel anymore.

What is holding this ability back is this behaviour, the free-roaming nature of it, and the inconsistency of its effects. For example, you mentioned talking about damage over CC, Zephyr really isn't a damage oriented frame, but. if a Tornado funnel picked up an enemy and held them suspended for a full 10 seconds, with the current neutral strength mechanics for dealing damage, and dealt the base damage it's supposed to deal, not having damage fall-off for distance away from Zephyr, it would equal in damage numbers a max strength build for Frost's Avalanche, Mag's Crush, Oberon's Smite, and even the non-boosted Saryn Miasma (as in, without the double/triple damage for having procs on enemies already). If you converted the damage to, say, Corrosive funnels, and allowed every tick of damage a high chance of Status proc, then it would also strip armour as well as these others too. It's actually kind of nuts how much the free roaming nature of Tornado funnels nerfs the other functions...

If you're like me, and actually run a 170% Strength build for Jet Stream, then this would be pretty damn interesting as a cast...

But there's more than just the damage to consider. I go into a lot of specifics on my thread up in the Disclaimer, take a look, you may be surprised.

Cyclone: You've had a similar goal to my own changes to the existing Tornado, wanting to use the same resources, but the issue is that... as far as I can see, you've actually achieved the exact same thing as a fixed Tornado cast, but without the CC, which you've traded for a buff to your allies.

As it appears, the trade you've done is to use Gale as your CC, while Cyclone becomes your buff, but I don't think it works as a dynamic. The slow doesn't prevent enemy action, only makes it less frequent, and without CC or, in trade-off for the lack of it, a far more substantive buff, or more damage, Cyclone is actually a weaker cast than Tornado could be if fixed.

All in all it's just kind of a weak cast right now.

So... your ideas aren't bad, they've certainly been suggested before, but they're not thought all the way through to what they would actually do for the frame and do for gameplay.

I'd take a stroll through the rework threads on the forums for a bit, take a look at their ideas, see what holes people poked in them, then have a fresh look at the direction you want to take Zephyr.

Thanks for all the hard work, though, it is definitely appreciated. (At the very least, we could potentially convince DE to go back on their decision concerning reworks just for Zephyr...)

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

Personally, I don't see why DE doesn't just use the other concept abilities from the concept post they got Zephyr from.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Personally, I don't see why DE doesn't just use the other concept abilities from the concept post they got Zephyr from.

Let's see...

Aerial Strike, a direct damage ability that's a better cast of Shuriken. Does small area-of-effect on regular attack, single target if cast while holding Aim.

Gust Kick, direct clone of Sonic Boom.

Glide. renamed to Tailwind.

Turbulence, original concept considered overpowered because not only did it negate projectiles, it also reflected damage like Shatter Shield and Link, and absorbed damage for DoT like Gara's Splinter Storm.

Tail Winds, Cut down, non OP version of this incorporated as Jet Stream augment, original version removed damage fall-off and turned projectiles into actual hitscan.

Gale Force, This was apparently a 'must', the key ability of Zephyr from the start. Zephyr would hover above the ground and move around as if riding the winds. Ability not only buffed movement speed, it removed Melee as an option (something DE wouldn't do, even if they would do the opposite), but it also buffed everything else Zephyr did too. Basically Exalted Winds. If DE didn't include this as part of the original frame, they aren't going to include it now.

Last Breath, movement lock ability, stand still and deal damage over time to CC'd enemies like Sound Quake, not exactly themed for the mobile Zephyr, is it? Especially since you could turn on Turbulence, hit this, and nothing would be able to touch you.

Tornado, Literally originally billed as a single Tornado that inhibits her own movement, overlaps functions with Turbulence, and was a Damage ability and CC ability at the same time.

Aside from Dive Bomb, which is justifiably considered her weakest cast, and was created solely by DE, the other abilities are about as well balanced for the game as the average first-attempt rework thread for Zephyr nowadays. Many of these abilities would have exactly the same problems that people like me and RenovaKunumaru point call out in threads as bad design choices. Others are ones placed into the game in some other form, like Inaros' Sandstorm (which isn't a very good ability overall, unless you have the rest of Inaros' kit, since it leaves you exposed and makes you move really, really slowly...). While others are just re-skins of abilities that we've now seen in other frames, and don't want to see on Zephyr.

The original thread gave us the concept, yes, but we know more about the game and how it changes now, we can do a lot better.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Thaylien

[LeopoldObelix]

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

And in light of that I'll not be putting in too much on this one

Good lord, if this is your "Not putting too much" I cant wait to find some of your "too much" posts lmao.

 

Thanks for the suggestions, glad to see the community actually want to improve our waframes, and apologies if these threads are getting you jaded. I don't frequent the forums unless there are serious matters I feel that need a discussion and Zephyr is one of them in light of Mirage getting her prime first. It opened the door for an extra few months of possible time to discuss the rework for a frame that otherwise is getting shelved as one of the more useless. 

Its sad to see even one warframe fade into the background, but it will be impossible to keep them all balanced and used equally, just trying to help the community forward, and if there is indeed a mega thread for Zephyr I'd be happy to help support it and get some changes taken a look at.

[Birdframe_Prime]

There's no megathread of any kind, but mine hit the hundred replies recently, which is kind of an achievement ^^

32 minutes ago, LeopoldObelix said:

Good lord, if this is your "Not putting too much" I cant wait to find some of your "too much" posts lmao.

Want a rather harrowing read?

Try this thread, it only got to 6 replies and two of them were mine... and I feel really guilty because I kind of... systematically... dismantled it:

Spoiler

 

[zornyan]

18 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

There's no megathread of any kind, but mine hit the hundred replies recently, which is kind of an achievement ^^

Want a rather harrowing read?

Try this thread, it only got to 6 replies and two of them were mine... and I feel really guilty because I kind of... systematically... dismantled it:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Overall like you said (and we’ve seen) ability reworks are long dead and gone, so we need to be simple with our requests.

 

as zephyr stands

 

3 is fine, although a “fix” to make sure projectiles are properly deflected (with the odd one passing through) would be a nice change, literially just a fix, which will increase survivability.

 

4, visually a cool skill, but instead of flinging enemies in the air making it impossible to kill them (same issue hydroid had with tentacles) make he tornados “suck in” enemies and pin them to the ground at the focal point of the tornado. Give them a % of damage absorbed as bonus damage dealt. Bam, our tornados now reliably CC a decent radius, allow us to kill enemies and can do some meaningful scaling levels of damage. % Of damage absorbed should scale with power strength.

 

1/2 is a hard fix for keeping the same skill, 1 needs to keep momentum up ,instead of killing it, for starters.

 

2, it’s never going to be great, but maybe look at the numbers and revise how high she should need to go to get any reasonable damage, increase the CC range by a bit perhaps too?

 

that should give us a slightly more tanky zephyr (more reliably tanky per sey) with a half decent CC ability.