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Decent PVP would intice a whole new market


Nuzinaki
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Hi I'm Chad Chadly and I already know you don't like me. I'm the kinda guy that spends thousands on his gaming machine but plays on low graphics to get an edge. Plays cs since 1.4, battlefield, Overwatch, quake and rust. I live for pvp and there are many people out there like me, EXACTLY like me. Why are you missing out on this huge untapped market? Every few years I do some more research on this game to find out if anything has been done on pvp, and I'm always bummed out that I'll never get to fly through the air at speed and kill people in a competitive scene. The mechanics of player movement is beautiful and I would love to play some competitive low time to kill pvp. Please consider us, we are huge in numbers and we have money. Please bring in some sort of competitive ranking system with servers. It will be an investment you will not regret.

 

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Just now, Nuzinaki said:

Please consider us, we are huge in numbers and we have money

This would only be a valid argument if the people that do not care for PvP where few and had no money. I would imaging the people that play WF for reasons other than PvP will vastly outnumber those that care about PvP.

2 minutes ago, Nuzinaki said:

Please bring in some sort of competitive ranking system with servers. It will be an investment you will not regret.

The issue here is that WF was never designed for PvP, this would be a massive amount of effort (because the current PvP is a little bit bad). I have zero interest in competitive WF. If they did it on the current system, it would probably just fall flat.

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3 minutes ago, krc473 said:

This would only be a valid argument if the people that do not care for PvP where few and had no money. I would imaging the people that play WF for reasons other than PvP will vastly outnumber those that care about PvP.

The issue here is that WF was never designed for PvP, this would be a massive amount of effort (because the current PvP is a little bit bad). I have zero interest in competitive WF. If they did it on the current system, it would probably just fall flat.

Ok so first off, at no point did I say PVE players had no money. I'm implying that PVP players do have money and it's a market(that you're not a part of) that is untapped. You have zero interest, but you're an already attained market. Adding PVP is cumulative and doesn't retract from the PVE experience.

Edited by Nuzinaki
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Just now, Nuzinaki said:

At no point did I say PVE players had no money.

The point I was trying to make: the people that care about PvP enough to spend money would likely be a small minority. The setup costs for DE could be substantial (additional servers, overheads, staff time etc). If they stand to lose money on implementing a new PvP system, why would they do it? Does the benefit to the company outweigh the cost? 

1 minute ago, Nuzinaki said:

You have zero interest

The reason I have no interest is the current state of PvP. If it was completely reworked and made actually enjoyable/rewarding, I would do it. I do like competitive PvP, but not on the current system in WF. The thing with good PvP games - most were built from the ground up with PvP in mind. WF has not been done like this. The primary focus has always been the PvE experience. 

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18 minutes ago, krc473 said:

The point I was trying to make: the people that care about PvP enough to spend money would likely be a small minority. The setup costs for DE could be substantial (additional servers, overheads, staff time etc). If they stand to lose money on implementing a new PvP system, why would they do it? Does the benefit to the company outweigh the cost? 

I don't understand how we would be a small minority. PVP players of all types spend a great deal on their games, fifa ultimate gained $800 million from transactions, valve makes millions every year from cs:go cosmetics, team fortress hats, league of legends skins, I could go on. PVP players probably pay more collectively than any other group. The setup cost could be substantial and probably would be. I guess it would be up to the warframe team to figure out the cost benefit. Not us clueless consumers who don't know how any of their stuff is programmed.

We are also a bunch who will try new games if we hear about it. Just like what happened from cs:go to pubg, and then fortnite. 

Edited by Nuzinaki
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I'm sorry, but there are plenty, plenty of other PvP games out there. Warframe is not designed for PvP, most of the playerbase doesn't want PvP, and if DE were to dedicate time, money and effort to implementing PvP focused updates, not only would it slow down the release of content for PvE and the current playerbase, which would result in people quitting the game, probably including me, but it would be a major risk, investing in content for a part of the playerbase that doesn't/ barely exists.

Warframe does not need PvP. Most people who currently play do not want PvP. There are plenty of PvP-focused games already out, with established competitive scenes etc, please leave Warframe to being a nice, refreshing, PvE game for people like me who can't stand the rage, stress and toxicity of what most PvP games consist of.

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8 minutes ago, (Xbox One)AyersyBears said:

I'm sorry, but there are plenty, plenty of other PvP games out there. Warframe is not designed for PvP, most of the playerbase doesn't want PvP, and if DE were to dedicate time, money and effort to implementing PvP focused updates, not only would it slow down the release of content for PvE and the current playerbase, which would result in people quitting the game, probably including me, but it would be a major risk, investing in content for a part of the playerbase that doesn't/ barely exists.

Warframe does not need PvP. Most people who currently play do not want PvP. There are plenty of PvP-focused games already out, with established competitive scenes etc, please leave Warframe to being a nice, refreshing, PvE game for people like me who can't stand the rage, stress and toxicity of what most PvP games consist of.

You would quit the game, even if it took nothing away from PVE? Just because it slowed down progress of PVE content? This sounds like spite. Why do you think that this game should only be for you? Why is there no space in your stratosphere to share your chat with PVP players? Nobody would force you to PVP, like I said, it's completely cumulative.

There are plenty of these games true, but I want Warframe. I could easily see myself sinking thousands of hours into this game if it only had decent pvp. So would probably a million others. To us, the game is incomplete when there is no way to test your metal against others with the weapons you've farmed. 

Edited by Nuzinaki
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Find an actual PvP game and stop bothering us.

We already know how well Warframe players like PvP when they shoved Conclave events down our throats two holidays in a row (Christmsa 2016, Valentine's 2017). It was an ugly affair.

Edited by Mattoropael
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2 minutes ago, Nuzinaki said:

You would quit the game, even if it took nothing away from PVE?

As most people are in the game for PvE content, significantly slowing down the updates is a problem. If DE has to spend 60% of their time fixing PvP, then PvE gets neglected, with no new content for the people that want PvE. 

6 minutes ago, Nuzinaki said:

like I said, it's completely cumulative.

The only way it is completely cumulative is if it has no negative impact on PvE. There would be a negative impact on PvE - DE is a small studio, they do not have the staff or infrastructure that a successful PvP game has.

5 minutes ago, Nuzinaki said:

So would probably a million others

I am curious where this number comes from.

 

Yes, I would like DE to improve (completely rework) PvP in Warframe, but they have other priorities. These will have a far bigger impact on the current players - the ones that are loyal and spend their money on WF already. 

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1 minute ago, Nuzinaki said:

You would quit the game, even if it took nothing away from PVE? Just because it slowed down progress of PVE content? This sounds like spite. Why do you think that this game should only be for you? Why is there no space in your stratosphere to share your chat with PVP players? Nobody would force you to PVP, like I said, it's completely cumulative.

There are plenty of these games true, but I want Warframe. I could easily see myself sinking thousands of hours into this game if it only had decent pvp. So would millions of others. To us, the game is incomplete when there is no way to test your metal against others with the weapons you've farmed. 

But that's the thing, it would take away from the PvE experience. Not directly, as in remove content, but in the way that new content would be released at a slower rate. Ergo, for high-MR, "endgame", veteran players, who mostly play with the newest stuff as soon as it's released, having to go longer between updates could possibly kill the enjoyment of the game. It's not spite, it would be boredom.

I don't think this game should be just for me, that's you putting words in my mouth, and I'd really appreciate it if you didn't do that. What I do think this game should be for, is the however many million people who already play and enjoy it for what it is. 

I want PvE Overwatch. I could sink thousands of hours into that. Am I going to get it? Aside from the occasional event, no. Because Overwatch wasn't designed with PvE in mind.

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I didn't know there were so many computer game developers who played here with experience of working on a game that generates a lot of money. AKA you're understanding of game development processes are complete speculation and just an attempt at giving an reasonable answer to a unreasonable want. Who knows they could bring in a team? Make investments in another company to help out. Anyway I've said my piece, this is meant to be just another reminder for their team, that's why I posted it in the feed back section. It's just another nudge to them, from a different person. Who knows, enough cumulative drive someone in management might eventually bite. I don't really care to argue about development processes that neither you or I know about. It's just a waste of time. 

Edited by Nuzinaki
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1 hour ago, Nuzinaki said:

Hi I'm Chad Chadly and I already know you don't like me. I'm the kinda guy that spends thousands on his gaming machine but plays on low graphics to get an edge. Plays cs since 1.4, battlefield, Overwatch, quake and rust. I live for pvp and there are many people out there like me, EXACTLY like me. Why are you missing out on this huge untapped market? Every few years I do some more research on this game to find out if anything has been done on pvp, and I'm always bummed out that I'll never get to fly through the air at speed and kill people in a competitive scene. The mechanics of player movement is beautiful and I would love to play some competitive low time to kill pvp. Please consider us, we are huge in numbers and we have money. Please bring in some sort of competitive ranking system with servers. It will be an investment you will not regret.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Nuzinaki said:

I didn't know there were so many computer game developers who played here with experience of working on a game that generates a lot of money. AKA you're understanding of game development processes are complete speculation and just an attempt at giving an reasonable answer to a unreasonable want. Who knows they could bring in a team? Make investments in another company to help out. Anyway I've said my piece, this is meant to be just another reminder for their team, that's why I posted it in the feed back section. It's just another nudge to them, from a different person. Who knows, enough cumulative drive someone in management might eventually bite. I don't really care to argue about development processes that neither you or me know about. It's just a waste of time. 

Alright, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt (as you are posting in the PoE Feedback area after-all). So from your OP, I get that you expect us to not like you, that you have experience with PvP with a set of games and want Leaderboards in Conclave while playing low TtK PvP, as to what directly pertains to Warframe.

DE has experience in FPS and have tried their hand at Amazing Eternals, which I regret not knowing about to participate, due to their limited marketing, so they do have people who can expand on Warframe's PvP (already on Warframe, and those who worked on Amazing Eternals).

Now if you could state a vision you have, for what can be possible for PvP (assuming you participate in the current setup of Conclave), then we can provide constructive feedback in that regard.

I've commented on it in the past as to why I don't use it much (PvP I mean), and am curious if you would be willing to go into more detail here, as to what could make what exists already a more competitive scene? As you state you've got experience in other PvP formats, I'm willing to read, and although the devs refrain from posting, they do read their forums!

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no thanks, pvp doesnt need to be bigger than it already is in primarily PvE game. PvP drives super competitiveness, which in turn creates toxicity, and that creates more toxicity. we dont need that toxicity here. theres a reason games with any kind of PvP focus tend to end up with poor community reputations,

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Okay so I'm just gonna throw this out there that I hate pvp in warframe and do everything I can to avoid it. 

Now that that's said, I would like to know your ideas for actually making it viable, as from what i've experienced from the game and other pvp games balance is a huge issue that never really gets solved. There are always meta weapons, and in this case meta builds and skills. Very rarely is there a level playing field for players. Warframe did get this right with the snowball fights and the valentines day cupid shootoffs, but those were once off events, and even then were still a little bias with spawn placements on the small maps. 

 

For me to enjoy pvp in this game I'd need a few things. 

1) Larger maps

2) No mods / limited weapon choice

3) More game modes, primarily a Last man standing mode. 

4) Forced same frame matches. 

 

This way things would be balanced and while there would still be meta choices everyone would have those same options and it brings it down to skill and team work. Trying to balance pvp for the 300+ weapons and 30+ frames is silly and makes no sense as most of those weapons were designed 100% for pve content. 

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1 hour ago, krc473 said:

The point I was trying to make: the people that care about PvP enough to spend money would likely be a small minority.

This is exactly the mindset why warframe pvp has not been allowed to take flight despite it's amazing potential. DE working to improve conclave would be a good step to open warframe to an entire new market and eventually make it's pvp and overall population grow. How is that something bad?

1 hour ago, krc473 said:

The setup costs for DE could be substantial (additional servers, overheads, staff time etc).

DE is currently working with community hosted servers which have no impact on their wallet. There's also a pvp dev team focused mostly on balance, so that would not be a huge issue. The rest of assets needed can ve developed by members from other teams on their free times, so you're just creating potential issues out of thin air.

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)AyersyBears said:

there are plenty, plenty of other PvP games out there.

Yet none of them can offer the speed and freedom from warframe's conclave. 

54 minutes ago, Mattoropael said:

We already know how well Warframe players like PvP when they shoved Conclave events down our throats two holidays in a row (Christmsa 2016, Valentine's 2017). It was an ugly affair.

Nobody shoved nothing down your throat, I'm sure there was no member from DE's staff holding you hostage and threatening you with killing your family or torturing you until you finished the pvp events. Peope did them by themselves because they wanted some useless ship decorations and then blew it all out of proportion (can't wait to see snowday showdown, quicksteel and hearts&arrows events back in next months)

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32 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

DE is currently working with community hosted servers which have no impact on their wallet.

Did you read the OP? Specifically the point where it sates "with servers". I can only assume this was meant like servers in the other PvP focused games, as in, not player hosted. Yes, I realise that the current setup costs them no money. But I have no interest in competitive PvP on player hosted servers - the host has the advantage of no lag.

34 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

The rest of assets needed can ve developed by members from other teams on their free times, so you're just creating potential issues out of thin air.

So, we are going to assume that DE staff members have enough free time (during the work day) to get this done in a timely fashion? Maybe they do, I do not know. But if they do not, then DE basically would need to hire a whole new team for this. So, its not really an issue "created out of thin air". 

36 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

This is exactly the mindset why warframe pvp has not been allowed to take flight despite it's amazing potential.

Well, how do we change DE's mindset then? 

  • Personally, I would love PvP to be something I could enjoy. But in its current form it just is not. I do believe that DE eventually will make PvP great in Warframe. I just do not know how long this will take them.

 

There are two main reasons I can see why this would not have been done already:

  1. DE views it as a waste of their time and resources.
  2. DE lacks the staff and infrastructure to complete it well.
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I'd rather not. Competitive communities breed incredible toxicity, almost invariably. Additionally, Warframe's game design is not very well suited to PvP, if the lack of success on the part of Conclave at present is any indication.

I leave you with an analogy: If you want Burgers, don't go into Pizza Hut demanding they serve Burgers, just go to Burger King. Likewise, if you want a highly competitive, PvP experience, instead of turning Warframe into that, which would no doubt be to its own detriment, how about you just go play and enjoy a game that offers that experience?

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The last time I played PvP, it was Quick Steel Day 2 because I was in desperate need of potatoes.

 

I hated it so very much.  It just didn't feel as fun as regular gameplay - Sure, there were moments where it proved exciting, but they were few, far between, and stuck in what was an endless mire of toxicity and rage.

The problem with PvP in a primarily PvE game is the first portion of this sentence.  Player Vs. Environment content is what Warframe was made around.  Player v. Player had to...

  • Initially remove most gear.  I bolded initially because this one's basically gone.
  • Nerf literally all of it so we wouldn't be playing tag with rocket launchers.
  • Throw our mods out the window as they were part of that problem.
  • Make an entire freaking Syndicate for it to incentivize it's play.

And even then I will never touch the Conclave if there's nothing there for me, which, truthfully, there isn't.  Having to essentially play a slowed down version of Warframe, a less 'Ninjas in space' game, for potato BPs was bad enough, even with the loadouts and statistics locked in for all players.  Going up against a community that...

  • Has found their meta and isn't afraid to use it
  • Will beat the ever-loving bejeezus out of me for not using that meta
  • Is as toxic as any other PvP community (Read: Anthrax)

At slower speed for little tangible benefit just isn't fun.  This claim that PvP players will spend money is dwarfed out by Prime Access, Prime Vault, fashion frame, rushing Foundry builds, etc.  All things done for PvE's major benefit.  And PvP resources mean less PvE resources, which means less PvE content at a slower pace, which means I eventually grow bored, which eventually translates into me taking a good, long hiatus from Warframe.

 

You'd be taking a slice of a pie, and then throwing the rest of it into the garbage, in short.

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Every time Warframe has tried to push PVP, it has fallen flat. The market is not there, period.

If you can't be bothered to play the existing Conclave mode as it is (with sweet skins as rewards), simply slapping leaderboards and prestige rankings on it won't magically make it fun.

There are plenty of other competitive games on the market; Warframe would be making a mistake by devoting time and resources to becoming something that it ultimately isn't. Just look at Lunaro.

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52 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Did you read the OP? Specifically the point where it sates "with servers". I can only assume this was meant like servers in the other PvP focused games, as in, not player hosted. Yes, I realise that the current setup costs them no money. But I have no interest in competitive PvP on player hosted servers - the host has the advantage of no lag.

I see community hosted servers as a step forward, this way DE can tweak the game mode at will until it's playerbase grows enough to make servers a viable investment.

About the lag part, players hosting servers not always play on their own; hell, i know one of them who barely plays warframe and still has the best servers in EU, and I also have never seen any of the players hosting servers playing pvp... well, only one and it wasn't on his servers. Also, the lag excuse is null since warframe has client-side hit registration, so as long as you manage to hit someone on your screen they will be taking damage.

52 minutes ago, krc473 said:

So, we are going to assume that DE staff members have enough free time (during the work day) to get this done in a timely fashion? Maybe they do, I do not know. But if they do not, then DE basically would need to hire a whole new team for this. So, its not really an issue "created out of thin air". 

And you are assuming that pvp would require a lot of new assets even when it uses exactly the same assets from pve, the same weapons and warframes, only a few lines of code differ on a small amount of warframes to make their skillsets fit a pvp environment and the rest is mostly balance by tweaking numbers which has no impact on pve. 

About the free time at job of the staff, things like a member having a deluxe skin for zephyr as his passion project should be enough to hint that they have some time to work on other things (even when no progress has been shown on it lately, so it's state is currently unknown).

I don't think money is the issue either since we have all seen the money given for charity and the prices given by DE on devstreams (platinum and prime accesses), the power plat at tennocon, and even at some contests like the old prime gaming giveaway and currently on the tenno's greatest trailer.

Keeping those things in mind i still think you're making issues out of thin air.

52 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Well, how do we change DE's mindset then? 

  • Personally, I would love PvP to be something I could enjoy. But in its current form it just is not. I do believe that DE eventually will make PvP great in Warframe. I just do not know how long this will take them.

I was not talking about DE's mindset but about the community's one who are used to bash and throw away people who would like to see some more investment to improve pvp and find nothing but "wirfrim is i pve cintric gimi", "gi pliy simething ilsi" and "pvp briids tixicity" as counter arguments.

52 minutes ago, krc473 said:

There are two main reasons I can see why this would not have been done already:

  1. DE views it as a waste of their time and resources.
  2. DE lacks the staff and infrastructure to complete it well.

As pointed before, I don't think it's a matter of resources or staff but simply that they are currently focusing on other things like expanding the warframe universe and lore.

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15 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

As pointed before, I don't think it's a matter of resources or staff but simply that they are currently focusing on other things like expanding the warframe universe and lore.

Okay, the issue with this statement is that it suggests they lack the staff to do both. Its not a matter of resources or staff, but they do not have the resources or staff to devote to it because they are doing other stuff. Yes, when they are not so busy with stuff they will have the resources and staff to put more effort into PvP. But as you said, they are currently focusing on expanding PvE. They could even be looking at developing a second open world area (Corpus, on Venus?). Remember the argument above about how DE should not sacrifice PvE to focus on PvP?

15 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I was not talking about DE's mindset but about the community's one who are used to bash and throw away people who would like to see some more investment to improve pvp and find nothing but "wirfrim is i pve cintric gimi", "gi pliy simething ilsi" and "pvp briids tixicity" as counter arguments.

If DE was truly dedicated to making PvP how it has been described here, would the community mindset stop them? I could be wrong, but when they were looking at updating PvP the first time people complained, saying it was a waste of time and no one wanted it (all the things that have been used as counter arguments here). And do you know what? They still did it. The community mindset will NOT stop DE doing something they want to do.

15 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

And you are assuming that pvp would require a lot of new assets even when it uses exactly the same assets from pve

For me to like it, they basically have to redo it from the ground up. I am looking at it from this point of view. I cannot see a way that the current system can be improved. DE has basically "balanced" (nerfed) the fun out of PvP for too many people. Any further updates to the current system will have far less appeal than a complete redesign - because DE has lost the majority of the playerbases' interest on the current system.

15 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I see community hosted servers as a step forward, this way DE can tweak the game mode at will until it's playerbase grows enough to make servers a viable investment.

You are talking dedicated servers? I have never played PvP on those. The statement in the OP was "servers". I was discussing what was outlined in the OP. I am in the Oceania/Asia region, the ping is terrible a lot of the time. I do not believe dedicated servers will solve this, I could of course be wrong. I do not even know if we have any dedicated servers hosted in that region at all. 

Edited by krc473
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12 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Okay, the issue with this statement is that it suggests they lack the staff to do both. Its not a matter of resources or staff, but they do not have the resources or staff to devote to it because they are doing other stuff. Yes, when they are not so busy with stuff they will have the resources and staff to put more effort into PvP. But as you said, they are currently focusing on expanding PvE. They could even be looking at developing a second open world area (Corpus, on Venus?). Remember the argument above about how DE should not sacrifice PvE to focus on PvP?

Yeah, I think DE has both, the staff and resources but they are currently focusing mainly on expanding universe and lore. PvP already has a dedicated team (of 2 people) so there is no need of "sacrificing" pve resources to develop pvp in a moment when the community is growing and demanding more and more content. I don't even see the point of fearing that pve would have to sacrifice some resources for pvp since the latter benefits from every little thing developed for the former, leaving the pvp team mostly with fixing bugs, player hosted dedicated server issues, balance, and probably some other things i may be forgetting (for instance, joebuck from the conclave team was the main face behind the development of dual wielding, a mechanic that has changed both, pve and pvp by adding a new way to fight your enemies)

12 minutes ago, krc473 said:

If DE was truly dedicated to making PvP how it has been described here, would the community mindset stop them? I could be wrong, but when they were looking at updating PvP the first time people complained, saying it was a waste of time and no one wanted it (all the things that have been used as counter arguments here). And do you know what? They still did it. The community mindset will NOT stop DE doing something they want to do.

I remember a lot of hype from the community for the lunaro update, which currently seems to be a forgotten mode even for many conclave players. Sadly I don't remember the reactions from when conclave 2.0 was announced and then implemented, let alone those when 1.0 was even requested, however I'm glad to see that DE has not heard the people who wants conclave removed or left to rot.

12 minutes ago, krc473 said:

For me to like it, they basically have to redo it from the ground up.

That's your opinion, I disagree with it. I think they should improve things like progression, add a server browser and advertise it early in the game in order to start growing. Bringing back events like the ones from christmas and valentine's day or even modes like opticor variant could also help a lot since many players enjoyed them because of these put everyone to use exactly the same gear.

12 minutes ago, krc473 said:

I am looking at it from this point of view. I cannot see a way that the current system can be improved. DE has basically "balanced" (nerfed) the fun out of PvP for too many people. Any further updates to the current system will have far less appeal than a complete redesign - because DE has lost the majority of the playerbases' interest on the current system.

So, you think a game mode where skill doesn't matter, balance doesn't exist and the winner of a battle is given by who has more levels in his mods can be slmething fair and enjoyable? That was part of conclave 1.0 and rails and reason why they were removed.

12 minutes ago, krc473 said:

You are talking dedicated servers? I have never played PvP on those. The statement in the OP was "servers". I was discussing what was outlined in the OP. I am in the Oceania/Asia region, the ping is terrible a lot of the time. I do not believe dedicated servers will solve this, I could of course be wrong. I do not even know if we have any dedicated servers hosted in that region at all.

Yeah, believe it or not the conclave actually has it's own servers, EU, NA, even OCE have them. You could also host your own in Asia if you want. But yeah, the game already has access to servers, and some of them are great despite being hosted by the community.

 

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We have had a vocal minority of PvP'ers trying to get it added into the game since the beginning.

What you see right now is the third version the DE has implemented and currently the best version so far............. and pretty much most of the player base hates it.

DE had a small team go through all the Frames, weapons and mechanics of the game to make it viable and to do so, it had to be separate from the main game.

And we still avoid it.

It does not bring in enough players for it to be worth their while, those limited resources have to be pulled from making content that does bring/keep players interested.

What you see is all that you're likely to get.

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On 2-12-2017 at 5:22 AM, ----Legacy---- said:
On 2-12-2017 at 4:08 AM, (Xbox One)AyersyBears said:

there are plenty, plenty of other PvP games out there.

Yet none of them can offer the speed and freedom from warframe's conclave. 

I would like to know an official answer to this.  

Why aren't there PVP games out there like Warframe's conclave?  Do the pvp developers out there know something we don't?

I have a speculation as to why but I'll keep it to myself for now. I want to know what others think about it first.

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