Decent PVP would intice a whole new market

[Witchydragon]

I don't think it is the style of PvP that is preventing more players from entering this game for PvP. Low TTK gameplay is not going to attract more hardcore pvp players since it's generally associated with more casual pvp ganes (less time to kill = less aim required = reduced usefulless of mobility). High TTK is what allows for the current skill ceiling. 

There are definitely things that could be done to make the game more accessible to players entering for pvp, however. Weapons and more Warframes could be made available for purchase through Teshin, or resources could drop from Conclave matches. This way a player who likes the pvp and dislikes the pve will have a way of building up a significant arsenal without grinding the pve, and he would spend plat the same way as most people: on slots and cosmetics.

 

[Nuzinaki]

16 hours ago, Witchydragon said:

I don't think it is the style of PvP that is preventing more players from entering this game for PvP. Low TTK gameplay is not going to attract more hardcore pvp players since it's generally associated with more casual pvp ganes (less time to kill = less aim required = reduced usefulless of mobility). High TTK is what allows for the current skill ceiling. 

There are definitely things that could be done to make the game more accessible to players entering for pvp, however. Weapons and more Warframes could be made available for purchase through Teshin, or resources could drop from Conclave matches. This way a player who likes the pvp and dislikes the pve will have a way of building up a significant arsenal without grinding the pve, and he would spend plat the same way as most people: on slots and cosmetics.

 

 

I've been following this thread silently, but this high ttk statement annoys me immensely even though it's unrelated to the original topic. I've heard it so many times, I've gotten into so many arguments over it. It just blows my mind that anyone can think a team based fps game should have high TTK or that it increases skill cap. After literal years of arguing about it, I've started to believe that it's most likely a way for bad players to protect themselves from the truth that they are bad players. In low time to kill games, bad players get killed often and they blame the system. They think it's stupid and luck based. They then play high time to kill games, they do a lot better because their averages go up, all of a sudden they are getting kills. What they don't realise is this is only because the good players are now skill capped. They then do the appropriate mental back flips to tell the world that high time to kill games are skill based. I've seen it a million times.

The reasons why low time to kill increases skill cap and why good players prefer it:

Low time to kill means I can take on multiple enemies as a single player. The more people I can take on at once when we all have the same abilities/guns the higher the skill ceiling. Unless you are a playing a 1v1 game like quake where high time to kill makes sense. It's the reason why overwatch is a garbage game. In 90% of encounters it doesn't matter how good you are, you can't take on people 1v2 without using some special ability. This means the skill cap is greatly reduced, because it means that numbers trump skill. This is because your influence doesn't matter as much as the average skill of the team. I'm global elite at cs:go and I can carry from nothing to supreme winning 90% of my games, because the games mechanics(low time to kill) let me do that. Good luck doing that on overwatch when you have a stupid team mate.

Two extreme examples demonstrating my point:

High time to kill game:

An alien has a reaction speed 1000 times faster than any human, he has god like aiming. He is playing against two average players. All players have a weapon that takes 6 seconds to kill a target. The alien engages both humans at the same time, he aims much faster than either of the humans. Both of the humans react a second later and start firing back. The alien dies in 3 seconds because he doesn't do enough damage to kill even one. He takes one target down to 40% health before dying. This is because his weapon doesn't do enough damage before he gets melted down by the other two players. 

Low time to kill game

An alien has a reaction speed 1000 times faster than any human, he has god like aiming. He is playing against 20 average players. All players have a weapon that instantly kills a target and can be fired at the speed of how fast a player can pull the trigger. The alien engages all 20 humans at the same time, he aims much faster than all of the humans. All the humans die before they've even fired a shot, because the alien is 1000 times faster than the humans and the MECHANICS of the game allow him to win. 

This is a gross simplification of fps games, but this is what it honestly boils down to. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Nuzinaki

[Triplinster]

I agree Warframe PVP has the potential. It's a unique game mode that offers good freedom of movement. 

But for PVP to really shine, it needs to be it's own thing. You can see that not many players are happy with it's existence as they come from PVE background. If there was a way to separate the two modes, that'd be the best.

And as someone who has been playing PVP only for 1600+ hours. No, PVP is not a bad game mode in general. It all depends on the preference of the player trying the game mode. I think DE has done a great job with the PVP overhaul (PVP 2.0) so far. It just lacks attention in basic weapon balancing and neutralizing changes carrying over from PVE over time.

[.Zel]

On 12/2/2017 at 9:08 AM, (Xbox One)AyersyBears said:

do not want PvP.

And so they don't play PvP, I don't see anyone saying "You have to play PvP if it is ever in a bigger scene".

On 12/2/2017 at 11:16 AM, Krion112 said:

Competitive communities breed incredible toxicity, almost invariably.

On 12/2/2017 at 10:09 AM, NightBlitz said:

we dont need that toxicity here

On 12/2/2017 at 9:08 AM, (Xbox One)AyersyBears said:

PvE game for people like me who can't stand the rage, stress and toxicity of what most PvP games consist of.

PvP in Warframe, the game mode and the community is entirely separate. No one comes to PvP in-order to progress in PvE, people only play Conclave due to a want and not because of a "need". Again, no one says you have to PvP. If you're not even playing Conclave then idk why you're worried about "rage, stress and toxicity".

On 12/2/2017 at 12:16 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

Just look at Lunaro.

That's the only PvP the community asked for, "Give us PvP which doesn't involve killing other players". It's not something the PvP players asked for but something the PvE players asked for, and you're surprised it's dead? Hundreds of hours are still spent on other Conclave modes daily.

On 12/2/2017 at 11:31 PM, Sabreracer said:

and pretty much most of the player base hates it

Most of the playerbase cares about Progress and Rewards, Conclave won't ever offer the amount of Progress and Rewards that can be gained from playing PvE. That is due to Conclave being a casual mode, just a break from the usual PvE and nothing more serious. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Overall if Conclave does enter the competitive, DE will make it so that it doesn't affect the PvE side of things or make the PvE dedicated players feel the need to play it. It's a completely different side of the game which wouldn't affect the dedicated PvE players, Because if PvP went to that level then DE would make things in-game used in PvP be attainable via gameplay in PvP. You don't like PvP and similarly there are players out there who don't like PvE, and so they would try to get things in the game relevant to PvP by playing PvP.  Or just make them all available in PvP to pick from like in CS:GO for which the PvP players won't even need to bother with PvE.

You won't ever come in contact with those players if the effort is made to further develope Conclave for a competitive scene. So most of the reasons i see on this thread are just over-exaggeration. It won't be the end of the world people.

 

 

[iNew_Vexx]

Yeeees! Pvp base games are the future of the competition, i cant see why the DE is blind to this.

Mmos like wow and blade and souls do a lot of pvp competition. Destiny, starwars battleground, titanfall and other shooters are pvp base and look how many people enjoy then. And i dont need to talk about league of legends...pvp base only.

Yes yes, have a bunch of diferent styles of games, but all have a nice pvp vision. Pvp is end game content for people who are tired of pve, is a nre challenge, a nee set of itens or mods, new rewards, and is free publicity for the company because, pls dont hate me, pvp is way more attractive than pve...

 

[MystMan]

Nuzinaki's post highlights something that is never brought up. "There is no singular pvp-player archetype"  Every pvp player has their own definition what makes a PVP game great, each with their own specific and very different expectations. Overwatch and such are very populated and popular despite me reading about other elite pvp players calling it trash. So clearly the general PVP playerbase comes with its own multiple layers of disagreements. What is a game developer to do in this scenario?  Who do they cater to? It is clearly impossible to please every pvp player. Appealing to the lowest common denominator tends to be often the safe route to take (The Overwatch crowd).

When you look at the PVE playerbase, would you call the majority of it elite skilled?  Judging by the constant complaints about sorties, spy, Mastery Rank tests,  etc etc being "too unfair/hard" and "you better do this & that solo instead of pub" , I'd say NO. Warframe has always been a casual game with a casual player base. Expecting a majority PVE elite-level skill from this player base, let alone pvp elite-skill, is simply a very far-fetched ideal. It's not realistic to expect them to ever put such high-tier skill-based gameplay in here alongside the casual content. You'd be better off designing such a game from scratch as its own title and hope it does well in that overcrowded market.
 

2 hours ago, .Zel said:

Overall if Conclave does enter the competitive, DE will make it so that it doesn't affect the PvE side of things or make the PvE dedicated players feel the need to play it. 

You won't ever come in contact with those players if the effort is made to further develope Conclave for a competitive scene. So most of the reasons i see on this thread are just over-exaggeration. It won't be the end of the world people.

It's not so much an over-exaggeration as it is a worried concern. For games that have pve and pvp, people worry because the average player base doesn't always get a 100% guarantee that the average game developers out there will actually do this, keep the game modes separate; promises can be broken after all. It has happened in other games when they tried to mix up both game modes together and it blew up in everybody's face, resulting in an non-fun disaster for all.

Since conclave is being maintained by only 2 people, I honestly wonder what players expect from these 2 people. With such low manpower and resources and being inside a casual PVE-centric game, Conclave can't possibly become something amazing that will drag people away from the Overwatches and Counterstrikes, It is simply nowhere as fleshed out as them. I'd be glad Conclave is still here at all and not shut down and removed like The Amazing Eternals.

[(XBOX)RickysREVENGZz]

Even if you all disagree DE at some point will impliment a pvp side to the game if it wants to reach a more mainstream status (which every developer wants) like they tried with solar raids. Most of the people in here talks about that if they focus on pvp they will forget pve, let me tell you this they were working on Amazing Eternals while they were starting with PoE, most of you didn't notice. The problem with the Amazing Eternals was aiming a market that is oversaturated and pretty much established. My point with this is that the same group working on Amazing Eternals can focus on the PvP aspect while the rest on pve. The problem with the pvp right now is the same problem with archwing and in some way plains of eidolons at the moment, those modes are separated from the core game meaning that if you invest time in those modes you won't get a noticeable reward that will help you on the rest of the game. For example you have on pvp mods that can't be used elsewhere, a reward system similar to a sortie but intead of daily... Weekly. If people don't have a reason or motivation no one will play conclave (this don't mean you will forced to play it), but look a trials they have the wf arcanes locked behind them if they didn't have them the small comunity that play them wouldn't even care.

Can the pvp system be fixed? Yeah the solar rails was a good idea, but wasn't implemented in the best way. If you want people to play PvP you have to leave them use their PvE stuff (mods). That way they feel they have an advantage from the time playing PvE. And how you balance it that it dosen't feel so unbalanced for new players, a leveling system that unlocks capacity to unlock those mods (could take inspiration from games like paragon). If you think that was solar rails, a pretty established type of game a MOBA.

[DiabolusUrsus]

5 hours ago, .Zel said:

That's the only PvP the community asked for, "Give us PvP which doesn't involve killing other players". It's not something the PvP players asked for but something the PvE players asked for, and you're surprised it's dead? Hundreds of hours are still spent on other Conclave modes daily.

You're missing the point I was making, which was that any attempt to twist Warframe into something it isn't (e.g., e-sport) is unlikely to go anywhere.

There is no denying that the PvP members of the community are a vast minority; even with dedicated players it isn't some huge untapped market.

The thing is, OP's proposal is dependent on a huge PvP market already existing within the community. Warframe would have a very hard time muscling in on the already-saturated PvP-specific market without converting its existing players. I don't think DE can pull that off.

What's more, DE struggles with balance for their PvE game where the only things at stake are time and loot. There would be much less room for error when players' competitive statistics and rankings are on the line. Conclave has many flaws (e.g., newly-released weapons frequently starting out OP before getting nerfed) that are easy to overlook when all that really matters is standing, but these flaws would be fatal in a truly competitive environment. Personally, I haven't seen any indication that DE can compensate for that effectively.

Consequently, I feel that developing competitive PvP would be a mistake.

[Heckzu]

15 hours ago, Nuzinaki said:

. In low time to kill games, bad players get killed often and they blame the system. They think it's stupid and luck based. They then play high time to kill games, they do a lot better because their averages go up, all of a sudden they are getting kills.

In my experience, it's the complete opposite.

In low TTK games, you can get lucky and score a kill, but in high TTK games, you can't. This is because high TTK games require players to consistently keep their crosshair on target, whereas low TTK games don't. Newer / less skilled players are far less likely to be able to track well enough for minimum TTK in a high TTK environment than in a low TTK environment.

Your example assumes that everyone can manage perfect TTK. In reality, that rarely happens unless you're using a full automatic at point blank range. Accuracy plays a much higher role in high TTK games than in low TTK games, which makes it harder for less skilled players to win in 1v1s in high TTK than in low TTK.

[Murph_HKM]

The only way PvP will ever be popular in Warframe is if they severely limit the mobility and speed of the gameplay, both of which are contradictory to Warframe's overwhelming emphasis on mobility. They also need to nerf most abilities into the floor. In essence, they need to make it a 3rd person version of Destiny.

The Warframe's PvP relates to Quake/UT more than pretty much any game out there. And given the failure of the new Quake and the "new" UT's permanent purgatory developmental status, the mass populace of gamers nowadays don't care for insanely high skill-ceiling, high mobility, constant weapon swap games nowadays. That's why Battlefield/PUBG/CoD have had such success; if someone wants to snipe, they can set up shop and snipe. If you want to do CQC, you can grab a shotgun and push close range on people. You can pick one thing and do it. Warframe doesn't allow that.

I enjoy Warframe's PvP and have a fair number of hours spent in it (though not the 2000+ hours that the OG Conclave members do), but the fact that nobody plays it shows it's not in a good spot.

[Sader]

On 12/2/2017 at 12:26 AM, Sintag said:

Having to essentially play a slowed down version of Warframe, a less 'Ninjas in space' game, for potato BPs was bad enough, even with the loadouts and statistics locked in for all players.

PvP mods currently make you faster than the base game.

[SevenLetterKWord]

On 12/4/2017 at 3:21 PM, Murph_HKM said:

The only way PvP will ever be popular in Warframe is if they severely limit the mobility and speed of the gameplay, both of which are contradictory to Warframe's overwhelming emphasis on mobility.

That might make it more approachable to a very casual audience, but it doesn't dictate popularity.

Conclave is a PvP game inside an incredibly grind-heavy PvE game.
A PvP-minded player cannot explore the full depth of Conclave loadouts and playstyles without significant investment in PvE.
Allowing for arsenal development through PvP would solve this and boost Conclave's popularity without having to sacrifice its unique identity by mainstream-washing it.

On 12/4/2017 at 3:21 PM, Murph_HKM said:

You can pick one thing and do it. Warframe doesn't allow that.

Not sure what this is supposed to mean, because Conclave clearly supports a variety of approaches.

[Murph_HKM]

32 minutes ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

That might make it more approachable to a very casual audience, but it doesn't dictate popularity.

Conclave is a PvP game inside an incredibly grind-heavy PvE game.
A PvP-minded player cannot explore the full depth of Conclave loadouts and playstyles without significant investment in PvE.
Allowing for arsenal development through PvP would solve this and boost Conclave's popularity without having to sacrifice its unique identity by mainstream-washing it.

Not sure what this is supposed to mean, because Conclave clearly supports a variety of approaches.

1) I suppose this point isn't 100% false, but it isn't 100% true either. I hopped into a conclave match the other day on an Atlas (never played the frame before) a Lato and a newly forma'd War and won the first match I got into. The mods you get in Conclave aren't nearly as important as the ones you need for PvE (in my opinion; this is open to debate). They certainly help, but they're not going to turn you into a mastodon just by having them. And the MK-1 Braton is still one of the most well rounded Conclave rifles, which I believe you still get right off the bat (unsure, only did the tutorial once).

As far as depth goes, there isn't almost any depth in Conclave. It's copter, pew-pew, abuse slam attacks and knockdowns on anyone who stops for half a second, rinse and repeat. I think I get what you're implying (variety between frames and weapons) but I don't really consider "variety" unless it really changes the flavor in how you play. Which it doesn't.

2) Conclave supports one approach, and you saying anything otherwise is just disingenuous on your part. How many times have you posted in any sort of melee focused thread "Sword Alone is a gimmick for PvE noobs"? Guess what? That's an approach. Which isn't viable. How about if you wanted to JUST use firearms, because melee doesn't really appeal to you? That's an approach too. And if you can't copter at all, you're going to get smoked as well. What if your favorite frame is Volt, because you're not really a fan of gunplay or swordplay, and Volt is marketed as a "potent alternative to gunplay" and you like to use abilities to play well? That's a third approach. And it's the third one you'd get trashed in.

The only approach that's supported is the one that you play, and I must admit I believe that's part of the reason why you vehemently defend it at every turn. This style is the Master of All, Jack of none. You need to shoot, copter, bullet jump, and spam knockdowns at every opportunity. It's an extremely high skill ceiling game, much like the games I've mentioned before (Quake/UT) that don't appeal to large numbers of people. There are no "roles" players can fill on their team (Overwatch, CQC, Assault) because the insane mobility renders such roles obsolete. Positioning holds almost no value; there's no way to hold a choke or funnel enemies into a favorable position. There are no sight-lines that can be manipulated for lower skilled players to compete with higher tier players, and there are no objectives that allow for players who have a good "game sense" to still be good players if you don't have insane aim and the ability to twitch. Most players fall short in these skills and end up getting mashed on by better players.

Now, maybe with a proper matchmaking system implemented it would resolve all of these issues. But I certainly think it's at least worth considering that the the PvP is lacking players because the PvP isn't good; not that the PvP isn't good because it's lacking players. I remember when Conclave 2.0 first came out and there were literally hundreds and maybe even thousands of people queuing for matches. Every queue was insta-filled. And I spent the day coptering around with my Gram on my Rhino 1 shotting people; I legitimately think I died maybe 5-6 times in several hours of playing.

Have we come a long way since then? Undoubtedly. Have we come far enough to entice PvP oriented players to give Warframe a look? Or seduce some PvE minded players to take a break from PvE to dip their toes in? Not even close.

Obviously I don't have numbers or statistics to 100% prove my point. But when you have 50-60k active players per day and at some points there are zero  other people looking for PvP, there are serious issues with it.

And I say all of this as someone who rather enjoys Conclave. 

I also want to clarify that I didn't mean to attack you or condescend in any way; you're a good player who's obviously been playing Conclave since probably the very beginning. It's just that every thread I see you in seems to devolve into your screenshotting people's k/d and telling them they have no idea what they're talking about. And you're not wrong in many of these cases; however, as stated above, the sheer lack of people Conclave must imply that there is some correlation between the current PvP mechanics and the lack of players. Maybe not a direct causation, but a correlation nonetheless. And I think it's wishful thinking that a matchmaking system would fix everything.

[SevenLetterKWord]

3 hours ago, Murph_HKM said:

1) I suppose this point isn't 100% false, but it isn't 100% true either. I hopped into a conclave match the other day on an Atlas (never played the frame before) a Lato and a newly forma'd War and won the first match I got into. The mods you get in Conclave aren't nearly as important as the ones you need for PvE (in my opinion; this is open to debate). They certainly help, but they're not going to turn you into a mastodon just by having them. And the MK-1 Braton is still one of the most well rounded Conclave rifles, which I believe you still get right off the bat (unsure, only did the tutorial once).

Who's talking about mods?

Correct, mods are not needed for success in Conclave.
Correct, MK1 weapons are balanced to be competitive.
This is all good and well.

And it's also beside the point.
You will eventually tire of using the same limited selection of equipment.

My point again: If a PvP player wants to try out frames/weapons like Nidus, Ivara, the Zarr, or the Euphona Prime, there is often no recourse but to spend money, and sometimes not even that is sufficient.

Quote

As far as depth goes, there isn't almost any depth in Conclave. It's copter, pew-pew, abuse slam attacks and knockdowns on anyone who stops for half a second, rinse and repeat.

No depth, right.
We've got a simple damage system with one type of damage and no damage effects, players have one form of health and no forms of healing, weapons are wholly lacking of alternate fire modes or passive effects, the mobility system is rudimentary and readily mastered, and - try as you might - there is not a single special ability to be found.

"copter": I'm not sure what you mean by "copter", because the "coptering" that used to exist in Warframe died with Parkour 1.0 and has not returned since.
"pew-pew": Did you just reduce all gunplay in Conclave to "pew-pew"? Am I supposed to take you seriously now?
"slam attacks and knockdowns": Slam attacks only knock down grounded players. If you find yourself repeatedly on the receiving end of melee knockdowns, I suggest you spend less time standing or walking around.

Quote

I think I get what you're implying (variety between frames and weapons) but I don't really consider "variety" unless it really changes the flavor in how you play. Which it doesn't.

My choice of weapon, be it sniper, shotgun, automatic, or melee, significantly influences how I play and - equally importantly - how I react to players with other weapons, be they snipers, shotguns, automatics, or melees.

Quote

2) Conclave supports one approach, and you saying anything otherwise is just disingenuous on your part. How many times have you posted in any sort of melee focused thread "Sword Alone is a gimmick for PvE noobs"? Guess what? That's an approach. Which isn't viable. How about if you wanted to JUST use firearms, because melee doesn't really appeal to you? That's an approach too. And if you can't copter at all, you're going to get smoked as well. What if your favorite frame is Volt, because you're not really a fan of gunplay or swordplay, and Volt is marketed as a "potent alternative to gunplay" and you like to use abilities to play well? That's a third approach. And it's the third one you'd get trashed in.

Melee can be extremely potent in the right situations, and it's certainly possible to succeed with melee weapons alone.

Given this, reconsider how narrowly you're defining "one approach":
A approach that emphasizes melee is entirely viable.
An approach that consists exclusively of melee - as I have seen you attempt - is frankly just silly and you shouldn't be surprised that it puts you at a disadvantage.
Obviously your opponents will be very prepared to counterplay when you neglect your other offensive options and thereby become predictable.

Abilities in Conclave primarily serve to augment your existing game plan or to enable specific combos. In this latter sense especially, an ability-centric playstyle is a valid approach.
Sometimes, abilities can define what your game plan will be, as is the case with Limbo's Rift, Vauban's Tesla, or Hydroid's Undertow.
A few other abilities, such as Artemis Bow or Hysteria, can temporarily allow players to adopt a very threatening playstyle focused entirely on abilities... but certainly you understand why Conclave must limit the active time for such abilities.

Can you get away with no guns and no weapons, only casting abilities?
Probably not, and I'd argue that you shouldn't be able to do so.
But my point remains: there's a vast amount of room to work abilities into your approach to Conclave.

Allow me to remind you that just because a mechanic exists and it isn't independently viable in Conclave doesn't mean that some design is flawed.
Damage through parkour exists; will you next argue that bullet jumping and sliding into your opponents ought to be a viable path to success?

Finally, about "a potent alternative to gunplay"...
Let's not pretend that Conclave is beholden to flavor text from PvE.

Quote

There are no "roles" players can fill on their team (Overwatch, CQC, Assault) because the insane mobility renders such roles obsolete. Positioning holds almost no value; there's no way to hold a choke or funnel enemies into a favorable position. There are no sight-lines that can be manipulated for lower skilled players to compete with higher tier players, and there are no objectives that allow for players who have a good "game sense" to still be good players if you don't have insane aim and the ability to twitch.

Conclave isn't strictly class-bound. Roles are suggested by equipment choice, and primarily differentiated by optimal engagement range.

Positioning is incredibly relevant, but fleetingly so. You have to be quick to capitalize on opportunities, and you have to be able to read your opponents' positioning.

Not sure what you mean by "sight-lines". It almost sounds like you're talking about one-way mirrors, which sort of exist in the form of Electric Shield, Snow Globe, and Mass Vitrify. Perhaps an example is in order.

Finally, concerning objective-based game modes: Yes, I would happily welcome a new implementation of Cephalon Capture that isn't riddled with holes and bandaids.
Alternatively, the reintroduction of Solar Rail Conflicts, preferably without the crippling shortcomings of its past, would serve just as well.

Quote

Have we come far enough to entice PvP oriented players to give Warframe a look? Or seduce some PvE minded players to take a break from PvE to dip their toes in? Not even close.

Both of those things have happened.

Quote

Obviously I don't have numbers or statistics to 100% prove my point.

And you apparently don't need either of those to make some very strongly-worded assertions.

Quote

It's just that every thread I see you in seems to devolve into your screenshotting people's k/d and telling them they have no idea what they're talking about. And you're not wrong in many of these cases

I reference players' Conclave stats to shed light on whether they're providing legitimate, experience-based feedback, or whether they're just slinging around "reworks" from their dream journals.

Here's the latest thread wherein I found this approach necessary.
Take a read and tell me: who's responsible for the "devolving"?

Quote

the sheer lack of people Conclave must imply that there is some correlation between the current PvP mechanics and the lack of players. Maybe not a direct causation, but a correlation nonetheless. And I think it's wishful thinking that a matchmaking system would fix everything.

Of the following two sets of items, which has a greater influence on Conclave's popularity?

Set 1, items around Conclave:
The fact that Warframe advertises itself as a PvE game to PvE players.
A deeply flawed initial implementation of PvP - aka Solar Rail Conflicts - in Warframe. (For example, PvP originally used PvE balancing, which is no balancing.)
A primitive matchmaking system that is simultaneously inconvenient to use and vulnerable to abuse, coupled with a daunting skill cap.
Poor explanation of mechanics and suboptimal new-player experience in Warframe overall.
The Conclave arsenal's dependency on the PvE arsenal, which necessitates that PvP-minded players spend weeks or months in PvE content to progress.

Or, set 2, items in Conclave:
An imprecisely defined flaw in Conclave's mechanics.
The fact that success in Conclave is dependent upon skill with various mechanics and engagement strategies.

Edited December 6, 2017 by SevenLetterKWord

[2035]

46 minutes ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Damage through parkour exists; will you next argue that bullet jumping and sliding into your opponents ought to be a viable path to success?

Yes!

Edited December 6, 2017 by Cicadeus

[Murph_HKM]

10 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Who's talking about mods?

Correct, mods are not needed for success in Conclave.
Correct, MK1 weapons are balanced to be competitive.
This is all good and well.

And it's also beside the point.
You will eventually tire of using the same limited selection of equipment.

My point again: If a PvP player wants to try out frames/weapons like Nidus, Ivara, the Zarr, or the Euphona Prime, there is often no recourse but to spend money, and sometimes not even that is sufficient.

This is as much speculation as anything I said; there are plenty of players (particularly PvP oriented players) who are completely fine with using the same approach with the same gear and the same weapons as long as it nets them the most important thing in the end: the win. Pretending to know the minds of players doesn't lend validity to your argument. What about in 1.0, when the selection of weapons and frames available was far less than that of what we have now? Did players get driven off by the "lack of variety"? 

The answer is no, because there is no variety.

10 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

No depth, right.
We've got a simple damage system with one type of damage and no damage effects, players have one form of health and no forms of healing, weapons are wholly lacking of alternate fire modes or passive effects, the mobility system is rudimentary and readily mastered, and - try as you might - there is not a single special ability to be found.

"copter": I'm not sure what you mean by "copter", because the "coptering" that used to exist in Warframe died with Parkour 1.0 and has not returned since.
"pew-pew": Did you just reduce all gunplay in Conclave to "pew-pew"? Am I supposed to take you seriously now?
"slam attacks and knockdowns": Slam attacks only knock down grounded players. If you find yourself repeatedly on the receiving end of melee knockdowns, I suggest you spend less time standing or walking around.

My choice of weapon, be it sniper, shotgun, automatic, or melee, significantly influences how I play and - equally importantly - how I react to players with other weapons, be they snipers, shotguns, automatics, or melees.

Yes, there is no depth. Every single gify you linked only proves my point. Didn't matter if you were using a different weapon or a different frame; you played exactly the same. Spam bullet jump, sprinkle a copter in, pew-pew, abuse the slam attack. Lmao. You literally did almost exactly as I described in every clip. So thanks for proving my point for me.

10 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Melee can be extremely potent in the right situations, and it's certainly possible to succeed with melee weapons alone.

Given this, reconsider how narrowly you're defining "one approach":
A approach that emphasizes melee is entirely viable.
An approach that consists exclusively of melee - as I have seen you attempt - is frankly just silly and you shouldn't be surprised that it puts you at a disadvantage.
Obviously your opponents will be very prepared to counterplay when you neglect your other offensive options and thereby become predictable.

Again, this is an opinion, not a fact. A fact is that approaching conclave and choosing to wield your melee weapon is an approach that is available to the player. Another fact is that it is such a disadvantage that there is almost no reason in doing so. 

An opinion is that "it's frankly just silly".

Should choosing to opt for a melee heavy approach limit your kit? Absolutely. Should it hamstring to such an extreme degree that almost no one can opt for it, because you cannot animation cancel out of combos and are stuck on a flat surface while doing it? No. 

So let's not cast stones from behind the glass walls in regards to "strongly worded opinions". 

 

10 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Can you get away with no guns and no weapons, only casting abilities?
Probably not, and I'd argue that you shouldn't be able to do so.
But my point remains: there's a vast amount of room to work abilities into your approach to Conclave.

Another opinion, and one that most people agree with certainly. However, it doesn't change the fact that certain frames like Volt are marketed around the fact that with them, you don't need to worry about gunplay or weaponry. And there's no reason why there couldn't be more frames that utilize skill-shots for their frame in Conclave abilities.

 

 

10 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Finally, about "a potent alternative to gunplay"...
Let's not pretend that Conclave is beholden to flavor text from PvE.

You mean, "flavor text" that entices people to acquire a certain frame because they desire to play a certain way, only to find out the game itself lied to them? Yeah. That's not a big deal at all.

So you'd be ok if the Vectis, despite being advertised as a "high-powered, single-shot, breech-loading sniper rifle" turned out to be an assault rifle in game? Cause, what the hell, we're just talking about "flavor text" here.

10 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Conclave isn't strictly class-bound. Roles are suggested by equipment choice, and primarily differentiated by optimal engagement range.

Positioning is incredibly relevant, but fleetingly so. You have to be quick to capitalize on opportunities, and you have to be able to read your opponents' positioning.

Again, see above. You've only demonstrated that for all your talk about "depth" and "variety", the gameplay still plays the exact same way.

10 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Not sure what you mean by "sight-lines". It almost sounds like you're talking about one-way mirrors, which sort of exist in the form of Electric Shield, Snow Globe, and Mass Vitrify. Perhaps an example is in order.

Sight-lines is a reference to a specific point players can hold that enables them to hold a position; the best reference I can think of is something like Counter-Strike, where a player can position oneself to hold a specific angle that exposes most/all of his target, but limits the efficiency in which his target can shoot back.

In short, it allows for players that don't possess the natural twitch/aim/flick skillset to still be effective due to their positioning. Something sorely lacking from Warframe's PvP.

10 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Finally, concerning objective-based game modes: Yes, I would happily welcome a new implementation of Cephalon Capture that isn't riddled with holes and bandaids.
Alternatively, the reintroduction of Solar Rail Conflicts, preferably without the crippling shortcomings of its past, would serve just as well.

I'm glad we can agree on something at least.

10 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Both of those things have happened.

No, they haven't. Else you wouldn't still be here reading threads about why Conclave is extremely dead.

10 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

And you apparently don't need either of those to make some very strongly-worded assertions.

Throwing stones from the glass house much?

10 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

I reference players' Conclave stats to shed light on whether they're providing legitimate, experience-based feedback, or whether they're just slinging around "reworks" from their dream journals.

Here's the latest thread wherein I found this approach necessary.
Take a read and tell me: who's responsible for the "devolving"?

Indeed, I did say "you're not wrong in many of these cases." At which point I did say the sheer lack of players is at least worth considering there is some correlation between the current version of conclave and the lack of players playing it. Correlation =/= causation, but it is at least exploring that conclave needs reworks in major areas.

10 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Of the following two sets of items, which has a greater influence on Conclave's popularity?

Set 1, items around Conclave:
The fact that Warframe advertises itself as a PvE game to PvE players.
A deeply flawed initial implementation of PvP - aka Solar Rail Conflicts - in Warframe. (For example, PvP originally used PvE balancing, which is no balancing.)
A primitive matchmaking system that is simultaneously inconvenient to use and vulnerable to abuse, coupled with a daunting skill cap.
Poor explanation of mechanics and suboptimal new-player experience in Warframe overall.
The Conclave arsenal's dependency on the PvE arsenal, which necessitates that PvP-minded players spend weeks or months in PvE content to progress.

WoW is advertised as a PvE game for PvE players too; and yet it still has a gigantic PvP community, tournaments, cash prizes, the whole 9 yards.

The remainder of your arguments would resolve themselves completely if the experience in Conclave was fun to most people. You can trash Destiny 2 all you like (I know I have) but even with its subpar matchmaking system, reliance on PvE for the best weapons, and lack of a ranking system, the PvP mechanics are still 10x more solid than the mechanics implemented in Warframe. Which is why is has many more PvP oriented people playing it.

10 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Or, set 2, items in Conclave:
An imprecisely defined flaw in Conclave's mechanics.
The fact that success in Conclave is dependent upon skill with various mechanics and engagement strategies.

The poor mechanics are the #1 reason for the lack of population.

Spending time on a matchmaking system would only further dilute the people you play against. Instead of playing against the same 50-60 people, you'd be stuck against the same 5-10.

[SevenLetterKWord]

8 hours ago, Murph_HKM said:

This is as much speculation as anything I said; there are plenty of players (particularly PvP oriented players) who are completely fine with using the same approach with the same gear and the same weapons as long as it nets them the most important thing in the end: the win.

I'm sure you could find some player that wakes up in the morning and is perfectly content shooting MK1-Braton rounds all day.
But the majority of users will want to experiment with other weapon types.
This is not speculation, it's just obvious, and it's Warframe's business model.

8 hours ago, Murph_HKM said:

Every single gify you linked only proves my point. Didn't matter if you were using a different weapon or a different frame; you played exactly the same. Spam bullet jump, sprinkle a copter in, pew-pew, abuse the slam attack. Lmao. You literally did almost exactly as I described in every clip. So thanks for proving my point for me.

Pretty difficult to avoid playing "exactly as you described" when your description contains "spam bullet jump" and "pew-pew", which presumably you are using irresponsibly to refer to mobility and gunplay.
(Despite your absurd requirements, I still provided clips wherein my mobility was limited to basic actions and wherein I didn't use guns at all.)

Moving and shooting are fundamental skills in Conclave.
What kind of "approach" are you looking for that doesn't involve either mobility or guns? "Tenno, you must hack consoles to annihilate your opponents' Oro!"

As for "coptering", I'm sure now that you have no clue what "coptering" means.
Even a cursory search produces abundant evidence of what coptering used to be.
Here's a video that I found in ten seconds by googling "warframe coptering".
Tell me, where in my clips did I "sprinkle a copter in"?

Finally, in my nine clips, four of which focused exclusively on melee, the majority did not contain a single ground slam.
Apparently you have an absurdly lax definition of "every clip".

8 hours ago, Murph_HKM said:

Should choosing to opt for a melee heavy approach limit your kit? Absolutely. Should it hamstring to such an extreme degree that almost no one can opt for it, because you cannot animation cancel out of combos and are stuck on a flat surface while doing it? No.

Good melee players don't overextend into unnecessary combos, and good melee players utilize their aerial options to engage targets.

Let's not forget that melee in Warframe is infinitely more viable than it is in the other games you've mentioned, namely PUBG and CS.

8 hours ago, Murph_HKM said:

You mean, "flavor text" that entices people to acquire a certain frame because they desire to play a certain way, only to find out the game itself lied to them? Yeah. That's not a big deal at all.
So you'd be ok if the Vectis, despite being advertised as a "high-powered, single-shot, breech-loading sniper rifle" turned out to be an assault rifle in game? Cause, what the hell, we're just talking about "flavor text" here.

Obviously that would be confusing.

But because I am not belligerently insane, I would expect the flavor text to be rewritten to match reality, instead of demanding that reality be conformed to flavor text.

Allow me to remind you that flavor text is fluff, and that the identity of a game item is defined by its usage, not by whatever few sentences of lore are pinned to it.

8 hours ago, Murph_HKM said:

Sight-lines is a reference to a specific point players can hold that enables them to hold a position; the best reference I can think of is something like Counter-Strike, where a player can position oneself to hold a specific angle that exposes most/all of his target, but limits the efficiency in which his target can shoot back.
In short, it allows for players that don't possess the natural twitch/aim/flick skillset to still be effective due to their positioning. Something sorely lacking from Warframe's PvP.

Not true at all.
There are obviously positional advantages in Warframe, though they may be dependent on weapon matchups.

Players with close-range weaponry like shotguns or melee have a significant advantage when engaging opponents in the tunnels, corridors, and covered trenches of maps like Bunkers, Compound, and Cephalon Spire. The same applies to long-range weapons when considering the open spaces of Cargo Bay, the high towers of Cephalon Spire, and... the bunkers, in Bunkers.

What are you looking for? A single position that is dominant in all weapon matchups?
That would just encourage camping, which I'm sure you're all too familiar with, given your reference to Counter-Strike.

8 hours ago, Murph_HKM said:

WoW is advertised as a PvE game for PvE players too; and yet it still has a gigantic PvP community, tournaments, cash prizes, the whole 9 yards.

WoW was an absurdly popular game published by an absurdly popular studio, and I believe it had PvP mechanics from the beginning.
Warframe is less so in all respects, and I can't remember a single instance of advertising media focusing on PvP in Warframe.

[Gamma745]

On 12/2/2017 at 1:25 PM, ----Legacy---- said:

About the free time at job of the staff, things like a member having a deluxe skin for zephyr as his passion project should be enough to hint that they have some time to work on other things (even when no progress has been shown on it lately, so it's state is currently unknown).

And you do know the frequency of those deluxe skins releases, right? With one skin coming out every few months. With a skin that was teased for months ago and yet haven't even got any word (Zephyr Deluxe, where the heck are you...).

If you're okay with the update coming at that frequency, then good for you I suppose.

[----Legacy----]

13 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

And you do know the frequency of those deluxe skins releases, right? With one skin coming out every few months. With a skin that was teased for months ago and yet haven't even got any word (Zephyr Deluxe, where the heck are you...).

We just had 3 of those skins in a month after the scarcity produced by the break between DE and Ignus Dei which most likely made the art team (which believe it or not works on the artistic assets used for both, pve and pvp) work on them in order to come with new concepts and then putting those in game. The issue with the zephyr deluxe is, iirc, that the staff member doing it specializes in weapon design and sculpting (not characters) so he's learning something new in his free times while focusing on making new weapons. It's not like we haven't had new weapons and cosmetics in a time long enough to start claiming that the updates are suddenly starting to come too slowly.

13 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

If you're okay with the update coming at that frequency, then good for you I suppose.

If you're okay with calling "update" to some fillers, then good for you I supoose.

[Gamma745]

3 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

We just had 3 of those skins in a month after the scarcity produced by the break between DE and Ignus Dei which most likely made the art team (which believe it or not works on the artistic assets used for both, pve and pvp) work on them in order to come with new concepts and then putting those in game. The issue with the zephyr deluxe is, iirc, that the staff member doing it specializes in weapon design and sculpting (not characters) so he's learning something new in his free times while focusing on making new weapons. It's not like we haven't had new weapons and cosmetics in a time long enough to start claiming that the updates are suddenly starting to come too slowly.

Okay, I don't know how much the Ignus Dei problem affected the release. Didn't know much about the detail for Zephyr Deluxe either. So, my bad on that part.

 

7 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

If you're okay with calling "update" to some fillers, then good for you I supoose.

I think you missed my point in this regard. You're saying that they have time for "side-projects" like the deluxe skins, which already said outright by DE as a passion project of one of their staff. You claimed that this could easily apply to maybe adding some PvP aspect.

What I'm asking is, are you okay with PvP relegated to some kind of pet or side project? The thing about passion project is that it is likely to not have a predictable schedule. It could be a long free time where they could churn out update and fixes quickly, or it could be a hectic and busy time in DE where the game-mode be left to rot. Are you okay with that?

[----Legacy----]

41 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

I think you missed my point in this regard. You're saying that they have time for "side-projects" like the deluxe skins, which already said outright by DE as a passion project of one of their staff. You claimed that this could easily apply to maybe adding some PvP aspect.

I think DE some people from other teams could eventually help to the conclave team whenever they have time, for example, the art team could make (or modify) some maps, add cosmetic rewards, etc. The last new thing we had for pvp is the compound map which could still get some more optimization (performance isn't as bad as it was on release but it's not good either) and every single conclave related thing you can see in the patch notes are balance changes and bug fixes, which shows a part of the work done by the conclave team.

1 hour ago, Gamma745 said:

What I'm asking is, are you okay with PvP relegated to some kind of pet or side project? The thing about passion project is that it is likely to not have a predictable schedule. It could be a long free time where they could churn out update and fixes quickly, or it could be a hectic and busy time in DE where the game-mode be left to rot. Are you okay with that?

Obviously i would not be okay with that, I'd be actually happy if DE put a couple of people from the appropiate team(s) to work on things like a server browser, adding progression through pvp, fixing RC while also promoting conclave in order to make it's population grow enough to start working in other things that could also be really helpful on big communities but detrimental for the smaller ones like conclave. Take "skill based matchmaking" requested by some people or the addition of new game modes requested by others as examples for this. 

[Gamma745]

11 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I think DE some people from other teams could eventually help to the conclave team whenever they have time, for example, the art team could make (or modify) some maps, add cosmetic rewards, etc.

Could be. It might be beneficial for Conclave. But there are a small concern of Conclave getting more exclusive stuff (I mean, we have threads every now and then regarding the Celestia Syandana, which I find missing the point of the item, IMO). More maps to fight in would be good though. Spice up the variety.

 

14 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Obviously i would not be okay with that, I'd be actually happy if DE put a couple of people from the appropiate team(s) to work on things like a server browser, adding progression through pvp, fixing RC while also promoting conclave in order to make it's population grow enough to start working in other things that could also be really helpful on big communities but detrimental for the smaller ones like conclave. Take "skill based matchmaking" requested by some people or the addition of new game modes requested by others as examples for this. 

Well, that would require more funds and man-power. I don't know if DE can afford to do that. From what I hear, they're kind of a small studio as it is, which is quite the feat that Warframe could get this big.

 

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against PvP in general. I participated in the Quick Steel and the snowball event, and didn't find it too bad. I just don't think PvP to be the "end all be all" gamemode that every game must have.

[----Legacy----]

2 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

Well, that would require more funds and man-power. I don't know if DE can afford to do that.

Do you think a small studio that manages to make an event like tennocon and give all of the earnings for charity, offer 10K USD as the prize in a contest, make a giveaway the size of the prime gaming giveaway (check the prizes, they gave ab aporoximate retail value of 31K USD there) and put an ad in times square, all of this in the same year can't afford to hire a few more people? I guess you're seriously underestimating DE.

15 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against PvP in general. I participated in the Quick Steel and the snowball event, and didn't find it too bad. I just don't think PvP to be the "end all be all" gamemode that every game must have.

Well, warframe already has pvp, and one with a lot of potential. It depends of DE to make tbe right decisions that could make it take flight and make warframe even bigger as a whole.

[Gamma745]

3 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Do you think a small studio that manages to make an event like tennocon and give all of the earnings for charity, offer 10K USD as the prize in a contest, make a giveaway the size of the prime gaming giveaway (check the prizes, they gave ab aporoximate retail value of 31K USD there) and put an ad in times square, all of this in the same year can't afford to hire a few more people? I guess you're seriously underestimating DE.

Yeah, I know I'm kinda underestimating them. Before all of that, Warframe only flourish and spread from mouth-to-mouth. To see them able to do that lately is quite impressive.

 

5 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Well, warframe already has pvp, and one with a lot of potential. It depends of DE to make tbe right decisions that could make it take flight and make warframe even bigger as a whole.

In the end, it's still up to DE. I don't know what kind of calculation they have done in the background, but they would probably do it if they find it profitable/worth the cost.

[.Zel]

On 12/4/2017 at 9:56 PM, MystMan said:

 

I know, which is exactly why i've mentioned it will be separated in one way or another by DE if the measures are taken to properly develop it for the PvP market. I honestly would hope for it to be removed from Warframe and be released on its own, many other feel like that too. 1 key reason is because updates and maintenance, PvP can't work on P2P(For Honor is a good example), servers would need to be maintained and the game would receive more updates/hotfixes/balance pass.

If those 2 games were in one client, then it would be a hassle for both the PvP crowd and PvE crowd. PvE players would have to update the client a bunch of times for changes in PvP and PvP players would have to do so for anything in PvE whether they play the mode or not. Simply too much work for both the Devs and Consumers to keep 2 big modes in one client, i just don't see it working.

Right now it works because it is a casual mode, most of the changes in conclave are just minor maintenance and balance pass, updates for PvP depends on PvE hotfixes currently. I remember we had to wait for weeks for certain game breaking bugs/glitches to be fixed simply because of that, but no one really cares that much since it's a casual mode and nothing serious.

On 12/5/2017 at 12:56 AM, DiabolusUrsus said:

to twist Warframe into something it isn't (e.g., e-sport) is unlikely to go anywhere.

I understand that, we're just merely discussing the possibilities of it. In Reality I am aware and many are aware too that Conclave won't garner a huge crowd, because the amount of people who play fast paced games like conclave have always been low.

The countless suggestions by the mass about removing Bullet Jumping or adding Stamina in Conclave to make it something like Arma/CS/CoD or any other FPS game out there is a good indication. People like their boots on the ground and not jumping around like ninjas, which is what Warframe's mobility promotes, fast paced gameplay. Let it be Quake/UT/Law Breakers, the playerbase in all of them are small but dedicated.

If Conclave is developed seriously then it will increase the population of PvP players, making it easier to find a match and that would give DE the chance to implement a proper MM. I don't see it going to E-sports, not in this decade at least. The PvP in Conclave is really unique, nothing like i've ever played before, but as you said it has its flaws. It would need many balance passes and testing before it reaches a fair ground.