Do we really need new content ingame?

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Bulletsponges don't harm anyone - Scaling damage does. Enemies one-shotting players is the primary reason why warframes have abilities that "utterly turn off enemies". The thing is, this inherent flaw in enemy and ability design cannot be fixed in any reasonable timeframe. We gotta be realistic here. It can't be done. So what can we do to cope with it? Put a hard cap on damage scaling of the enemies and introduce some form of damage gating - and hope that it diminishes the problem.

Damage scaling can't be reigned in until enemy life expectancy exceeds 0.2 seconds. Until player power is checked enemies have be OP in order to be threatening in the very short existence they have.

Which is why we need a game wide stat squish.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Damage scaling can't be reigned in until enemy life expectancy exceeds 0.2 seconds. Until player power is checked enemies have be OP in order to be threatening in the very short existence they have.

Which is why we need a game wide stat squish.

Fat high-level enemies don't need a stat squish. Only a cap for the damage they deal. I agree, that enemies have to last longer, but the way I understand what you're saying, is that you want to "squish" the stats of warframes and weapons to fit the low-level starchart enemies. And that's a backwards solution. lvl 100-150+ enemies with a damage cap is what you're looking for. And they wouldn't require a stat-nerf for the entire game.

 People keep saying that DE didn't balance the game around high-lvl enemies, but shifting the game's balance to include the 100+ enemy levels would actually allow for a more spread out difficulty curve - beginners would play with their little starchart enemies, and veterans would have enemies they wouldn't be ashamed of killing with 6-8 forma warframes and weapons with godrivens and what not.    

Edited December 13, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[BlackCoMerc]

16 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Fat high-level enemies don't need a stat squish. Only a cap for the damage they deal. I agree, that enemies have to last longer, but the way I understand what you're saying, is that you want to "squish" the stats of warframes and weapons to fit the low-level starchart enemies. And that's a backwards solution. lvl 100-150+ enemies with a damage cap is what you're looking for. And they wouldn't require a stat-nerf for the entire game.

 People keep saying that DE didn't balance the game around high-lvl enemies, but shifting the game's balance to include the 100+ enemy levels would actually allow for a more spread out difficulty curve - beginners would play with their little starchart enemies, and veterans would have enemies they wouldn't be ashamed of killing with 6-8 forma warframes and weapons with godrivens and what not.    

Except that most rewards come from "those little star chart enemies." That's why we need to narrow the gap between high and low levels.

Levels aren't the issue, though. Balance is. Whatever numbers DE settle on, we need better balance.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Except that most rewards come from "those little star chart enemies." That's why we need to narrow the gap between high and low levels.

Levels aren't the issue, though. Balance is. Whatever numbers DE settle on, we need better balance.

Starchart doesn't really have much in terms of rewards either. Resources drop the same at any level. And high-level rewards are much easier to do than rebalancing all stats in the whole game. Especially when there's no guarantee that It wouldn't actually achieve anything. How would you know that this "new balance" is going to be better somehow than the current system? We gotta build on what we have. Reworking stuff from ground up is a waste of time and resources with no guaranteed results to speak of.

[BlackCoMerc]

49 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Starchart doesn't really have much in terms of rewards either. Resources drop the same at any level. And high-level rewards are much easier to do than rebalancing all stats in the whole game. Especially when there's no guarantee that It wouldn't actually achieve anything. How would you know that this "new balance" is going to be better somehow than the current system? We gotta build on what we have. Reworking stuff from ground up is a waste of time and resources with no guaranteed results to speak of.

That's a fair point.

But the Star Chart hosts all Prime runs, Syndicate missions and mat grinding. I think reasonable challenge needs to be found there, seeing as how so much content plays out there.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Fat high-level enemies don't need a stat squish. Only a cap for the damage they deal. I agree, that enemies have to last longer, but the way I understand what you're saying, is that you want to "squish" the stats of warframes and weapons to fit the low-level starchart enemies. And that's a backwards solution. lvl 100-150+ enemies with a damage cap is what you're looking for. And they wouldn't require a stat-nerf for the entire game.

 People keep saying that DE didn't balance the game around high-lvl enemies, but shifting the game's balance to include the 100+ enemy levels would actually allow for a more spread out difficulty curve - beginners would play with their little starchart enemies, and veterans would have enemies they wouldn't be ashamed of killing with 6-8 forma warframes and weapons with godrivens and what not.    

Nothing can kill my mood for going on a long run than having to fight for hours on a map to reach the point where i die because i made a mistake and not because im drifting between a half-asleep half-dead state out of boredom.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

45 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

That's a fair point.

But the Star Chart hosts all Prime runs, Syndicate missions and mat grinding. I think reasonable challenge needs to be found there, seeing as how so much content plays out there.

 Warframe doesn't have a sufficient vertical progression. Right now 90% of the gameplay is cramped in 50 enemy levels - enemies that could be oneshotted with most (even unmaxed) weapons. Starchart-level enemies together with insane melee damage make most of the gear and mods in the game pretty much obsolete and minmaxing, - drawing most ouf of the gear we farm, - redundant. Meaning, if you fully utilize the very core mechanics present in the game, you "outgrow" the starchart in no time with nowhere else to go afterwards. This is pretty much the same problem you are talking about, but "from the other end", so to speak.

 Yes, one option is to cramp everything Warframe has to offer in these 40-50 levels of the starchart, by reworking all stats etc. But it would require a lot of work with a sledgehammer. On the other hand, the same problem could be solved by expanding the level range of the gameplay from 40-50 levels up to 100-150 levels. It wouldn't require any stat reworks since a decent chunck of the weapons and frames are capable of operating on these levels, and 100-150lvl enemies are actually a decent threat even to the semi-veteran players. Basically, it's just much easier to expand the Level-range of the game than to have to rework it's very mathematical foundation just to cramp the whole thing into a limiting constraints of the starchart levels.

 There has to be a high-level gameplay for the veterans. There just has to be something for people who have all the gear in the game. Otherwise there's no reason to farm that gear. And considering the whole game is about farming gear, not having a gameplay for that gear at its full potential is a frankly ridiculous situation. It's a tremendous letdown on DE's part. DE keep making powercreep weapons, adding rivens and such without a gameplay to incorporate all this stuff. It's insane, when you think about it! 

Edited December 13, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[zornyan]

If the star chart was increased to lvl 100-150 you would suddenly alienate most of the player base.

 

by the time someone completes he star chart, they’re lucky to have something like serration maxed, with maybe a handful of forma, and a couple of potatoes.

 

try taking a braton prime into lvl 150 content, with 5 mod slots full, of half leveled mods,  o heavy cal or hard to get mods, and watch as it suddenly takes 4/5 mags (basically your entire ammo pool) to kill a single heavy gunner.

 

it took me months of hard work after completing the star chat to get anywhere near enough able to kill lvl 100 mobs consistently, let alone lvl 150 where enemy scaling is broken beyond belief.

 

if you needed to do that level of content to progress in the game, Warframe would lose a large percentage of its playerbase, cateering to vets doesn’t bring in new players and new income, catering to casuals does, and casuals love the power fantasy.

 

also, we have eidolon fights (which are soon to get harder), we have sorties, we have endless missions, we have kuva floods.

 

more than 70% of my playtime is fighting enemies that can one shot even my tanky frames on a daily basis, and trying to figure out builds to survive in these situations.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Nothing can kill my mood for going on a long run than having to fight for hours on a map to reach the point where i die because i made a mistake and not because im drifting between a half-asleep half-dead state out of boredom.

What do you mean? *puzzled* I have a couple of guesses, but the way you phrased it leaves your point a bit ambiguous. Could you rephrase it if you don't mind? 

 There is a ton of problems with endless missions and the way they function. I'm not gonna deny it. But as a concept endless missions are pretty much the only possible endgame a game like Warframe could have. There's just no alternative for it.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

45 minutes ago, zornyan said:

If the star chart was increased to lvl 100-150 you would suddenly alienate most of the player base.

by the time someone completes he star chart, they’re lucky to have something like serration maxed, with maybe a handful of forma, and a couple of potatoes.

 Absolutely not what I meant. What I meant is that we need high-level missions and game modes, as well as endless missions to be viable again.starchart caps at level 50 and it's fine for that part of the game. But there has to be gameplay that goes beyond that, is what I'm saying.

45 minutes ago, zornyan said:

try taking a braton prime into lvl 150 content, with 5 mod slots full, of half leveled mods,  o heavy cal or hard to get mods, and watch as it suddenly takes 4/5 mags (basically your entire ammo pool) to kill a single heavy gunner.

it took me months of hard work after completing the star chat to get anywhere near enough able to kill lvl 100 mobs consistently, let alone lvl 150 where enemy scaling is broken beyond belief.

This is a problem of weapon scaling that melee weapons, for example, don't have. It could be solved in a similar fashion. The dumb thing is that right now melee weapons scale almost infinitely, while the rest of the weapons don't scale at all. This is one of the issues that requires fixing as well.

45 minutes ago, zornyan said:

if you needed to do that level of content to progress in the game, Warframe would lose a large percentage of its playerbase, cateering to vets doesn’t bring in new players and new income, catering to casuals does, and casuals love the power fantasy.

You're missing the point. I'm talking about high-level content that could be created pretty much out of the stuff that is already in the game. All your starcharts and quests and power fantasies will still be there for people who prefer that. How should I put it, expanding gameplay to higher levels would simply allow for more space to flesh out the gameplay. It's like increasing a level cap in an MMORPG to add some higher-level content. The lower-level content is still there, but players have more level range to play with. Current gear and mechanics we have in the game are too powerful for the low-level starchart constraits. Starchart cannot possibly flesh out fully the gameplay of Warframe. Level 50 simply isn't enough. So we need a natural progression from lvl 50 starchart to level 100-150+ gameplay - whatever form that gameplay might take.

 Higher levels simply mean more space for the players and development to grow into.

45 minutes ago, zornyan said:

also, we have eidolon fights (which are soon to get harder), we have sorties, we have endless missions, we have kuva floods.

• Eidolon fights are a joke built on a disruptive operator mechanic that prohibits you from playing Warframe.
• Sorties are 15 minutes of gameplay once every 24 hours for a random reward that is sh*t 85% of the time.
• Endless fissure missions are random. They require a team that would stay for longer than 1-2 rotations, which rarely ever happens. Without a team relic system offers no benefits, and even if the team stays longer, there's no benefit for the added difficulty and time in general. It's much more efficient to play multiple short fissures instead of staying in the same endless one - that's why people rarely play endless fissures.
• Kuva missions are another joke (or I suppose the original one) made to justify the existence of operators. It's a horrid game mode with no real difficulty to speak of, that simply dumps a bunch of invincible enemies at you while forcing you to wait in one place for the kuva clouds. It's like fissures 1.0 all over again, but this time they stayed for a whole year with no hope of getting rid of them anytime soon. Kuva missions are a game mode you "put up with". It's something you have to do to farm the most valuable resource in the game, but I can't imagine anyone actually being able to enjoy this abominable torture for any extended period of time. Kuva missions are really f*cking bad.

45 minutes ago, zornyan said:

more than 70% of my playtime is fighting enemies that can one shot even my tanky frames on a daily basis, and trying to figure out builds to survive in these situations.

 If you have problems like that you probably didn't play Warframe much, or thoroughly enough. It's ok to be a casual player. You'll have a starchart for that. I'm talking about something that would allow for the core gameplay to be fleshed out - for the people who play Warframe extensively or for a decently long time. Have maxed out mods and gear. Because starchart is incapable of justifying the gear variety we have in the game.

Edited December 13, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Warframe doesn't have a sufficient vertical progression.

I agree that this is a problem, but I disagree that we need to open up level 150 to fix it.

Half of the issue is the way scaling is implemented; there is hardly any change up to level 40-50 and then enemies are suddenly super-tanks by 80-100. What really needs to happen is scaling needs to be retooled to provide a steady increase in enemy power that tapers off toward the top instead of skyrocketing.

I suppose I could rephrase to say: Warframe's vertical progression happens too fast, too late.

With regards to the enemy TTK issue, all we really need is a more significant caste system consisting of trash mobs, officers, and minibosses. It preserves the power fantasy that draws newer players in without sacrificing too much depth of gameplay, especially if you build adequate combat resource (health/energy) recovery mechanics off of the trash mobs a la Prototype or Shadow of Mordor.

[zornyan]

Your talking to an mr24 with over a thousand hours in Warframe....I play plenty, and have played since console release (then switched to pc a year ago and did mr24 since then)

 

doesn't change the the fact that with multiple frames in high level content enemies can kill you in less than a second, or a single shot, not to mention enemy AOE attacks, enemy CC and knockdowns and enemy toxics etc, which don’t even need to be aiming in your general direction to kill you.

 

Even worse when you use a frame like mirage and try to cast her 4, and die before you can even get the skill off just as an example, literially making multiple frames and skills non viable for high level content.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Just now, DiabolusUrsus said:

I agree that this is a problem, but I disagree that we need to open up level 150 to fix it.

 We already have lvl 150 gameplay. We're just not using it for anything. It's present in the game, but it's wasted. What I'm saying is that higher level gameplay is an opportunity that isn't utilized for anything at all. High-level missions could be this "new gameplay" made with the existing mechanics that would simultaneously provide a platform for players to experiment with and justify the existence of the gear variety present in the game. All that's needed is a decent reward to go with it, as I mentioned earlier - kuva, most preferably.

8 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Half of the issue is the way scaling is implemented; there is hardly any change up to level 40-50 and then enemies are suddenly super-tanks by 80-100. What really needs to happen is scaling needs to be retooled to provide a steady increase in enemy power that tapers off toward the top instead of skyrocketing.

Let me explain my logic here. Lets take any average high-end weapon - say, akstiletto prime. Maxed out Akstiletto P without a riven take about ~1 mag to kill a level 140 corrupted heavy gunner. In the starchart Akstiletto P is just another oneshotting gun that kills everything in a blink of an eye. Low-level enemies are simply incapable to stand up to the maxed out weapons we have in the game. On the other hand, you can't really fit higher level enemy scaling into the starchart, cause newbies are playing there. So we get this dissonance between the max capability of warframes and the lack of gameplay that could stand up to their strength. I'm simply suggesting to bring that kind of gameplay to the game. That's all. But you can't cramp the toughness of enemies able to stand to those kind of weapons into the starchart level range. The only option is to have a "separate" gameplay for advanced players that works as an endgame and encourages progression instead of hindering it (basically a gameplay newbies would look forward to while building up their own arsenals).

19 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I suppose I could rephrase to say: Warframe's vertical progression happens too fast, too late.

More like it happens to fast and ends too early. The only sort of progression we have right now is contained within the starchart and there's nowhere to go from there. After players complete the starchart and finish all the quests, there's nothing much else to do but collect the gear. And since the gear isn't really empowering and is merely a difference between one oneshotting gun and the other with no gameplay to flesh it out, building up the arsenal in the realities of the current warframe build is a pointless endeavour. Basically, after finishing all the quests and going through the starchart it's game over. There's nothing else to do, no directions to look forward to.

 High-level gameplay could offer a direction to the new players as well as an endgame loop for the veterans if done correctly.

27 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

With regards to the enemy TTK issue, all we really need is a more significant caste system consisting of trash mobs, officers, and minibosses. It preserves the power fantasy that draws newer players in without sacrificing too much depth of gameplay, especially if you build adequate combat resource (health/energy) recovery mechanics off of the trash mobs a la Prototype or Shadow of Mordor.

There is no depth to sacrifice to begin with. That's the problem. Almost all enemies are oneshottable while barely being able to scratch even the weakest of maxed out warframes (apart from certain enemies that are invincible for one reason or another, which is a whole another topic).

Only endless high-level content is able to provide any depth at all, allowing for gameplay mechanics to be fleshed out and time to actually play with them.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

46 minutes ago, zornyan said:

Your talking to an mr24 with over a thousand hours in Warframe....I play plenty, and have played since console release (then switched to pc a year ago and did mr24 since then)

 Mastery rank means only that you crafted a lot of weapons and spent a lot of time playing particular maps. If you have problems with oneshots and starchart enemies, you're doing something wrong - you either don't have all mods maxed or don't minmax at all. Which in turn means you don't fully utilize the existing gameplay mechanics. 

46 minutes ago, zornyan said:

doesn't change the the fact that with multiple frames in high level content enemies can kill you in less than a second, or a single shot, not to mention enemy AOE attacks, enemy CC and knockdowns and enemy toxics etc, which don’t even need to be aiming in your general direction to kill you.

That's why I was talking about a hard damage cap on enemy scaling and/or damage gating on warframes.

46 minutes ago, zornyan said:

Even worse when you use a frame like mirage and try to cast her 4, and die before you can even get the skill off just as an example, literially making multiple frames and skills non viable for high level content.

 Yup, warframe is quite a bit of a mess. On one hand we have your Krakens and Lato, and Boltos that can't kill anything in the best weather. On the other hand with have tigris prime, akstiletto prime, aklex prime and such. And don't forget about infinitely scaling melee weapons!

 Warframe's gear power levels are inconsistent, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have gameplay for maxed out high-tier gear just because certain items are so bad they can't possibly go there.

Edited December 13, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 We already have lvl 150 gameplay. We're just not using it for anything. It's present in the game, but it's wasted. What I'm saying is that higher level gameplay is an opportunity that isn't utilized for anything at all. High-level missions could be this "new gameplay" made with the existing mechanics that would simultaneously provide a platform for players to experiment with and justify the existence of the gear variety present in the game. All that's needed is a decent reward to go with it, as I mentioned earlier - kuva, most preferably.

Unless there is some extra mode I am unaware of, Level 150 is currently outside the scope of normal play. Last I checked, 100 was the max "endorsed" level as presented in Sortie 3. I understand and empathize with your point about not having anything to use your maxed weapons on most of the time, but I don't think that's a good reason to push for normalizing Level 150 enemies considering what fighting against Level 150 enemies is currently like. Yes, I enjoy having enemies that can eat more than a couple of bullets. No, I don't like it when those enemies must be locked down with CC for me to not die a horrible, untimely, and swift death.

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Let me explain my logic here. Lets take any average high-end weapon - say, akstiletto prime. Maxed out Akstiletto P without a riven take about ~1 mag to kill a level 140 corrupted heavy gunner. In the starchart Akstiletto P is just another oneshotting gun that kills everything in a blink of an eye. Low-level enemies are simply incapable to stand up to the maxed out weapons we have in the game. On the other hand, you can't really fit higher level enemy scaling into the starchart, cause newbies are playing there. So we get this dissonance between the max capability of warframes and the lack of gameplay that could stand up to their strength. I'm simply suggesting to bring that kind of gameplay to the game. That's all. But you can't cramp the toughness of enemies able to stand to those kind of weapons into the starchart level range. The only option is to have a "separate" gameplay for advanced players that works as an endgame and encourages progression instead of hindering it (basically a gameplay newbies would look forward to while building up their own arsenals).

I 100% understand your logic, 100% agree with your reasoning, and 10,000% disagree with your conclusion.

Warframe is already saturated on the content front. New players are already faced with a gargantuan amount of "progression" when it comes to mod/weapon/resource acquisition. There's no need to deliberately move the goalpost even further out. Let me put it this way: when I hear "our weapons kill everything on the starchart in 1 hit," I interpret that as our weapons being too powerful... not enemies being too weak.

Don't get me wrong; I fully support the notion that we should have high-level end-game content available to challenge our fully-decked out Frames and weapons. However...

Why do we need Level 150 content to fill that role? Why can't we simply curb the maximum potential of our gear a bit (e.g., prevent constant wide-area CC lockdown, tweak permacloaki, reduce damage output) and re-work our existing end-game attempts (Dark Sectors, Sorties, Fissures, etc.) to be proper end-game content instead of unenjoyable failures?  Why are we suddenly accepting the status quo for Sorties as inviolable?

I contend that having such a huge gap between the gear of fresh vs. seasoned players actually serves to discourage new players from getting invested in the game.

Nobody actually wants to spend all their time striving toward a goal. They want to get to that goal and enjoy the benefits. That doesn't go to say that getting bored from lack of additional goals once you get there isn't a problem; it certainly is, and one Warframe suffers from greatly, but I don't think simply stacking on extra goals is the way to solve it. Warframe simply doesn't have the combat depth to pull that sort of end-game off. Fighting a level 150 Heavy Gunner with a fully-modded Akstiletto Prime is exactly the same as fighting a Level 1 Heavy Gunner with a lightly-modded Lato, except with a much narrower margin for error. I'd go as far as to say that I'd honestly prefer fighting the Level 1 Gunner simply because it can actually shoot at me instead of simply standing there stunned while I mow it down.

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

More like it happens to fast and ends too early. The only sort of progression we have right now is contained within the starchart and there's nowhere to go from there. After players complete the starchart and finish all the quests, there's nothing much else to do but collect the gear. And since the gear isn't really empowering and is merely a difference between one oneshotting gun and the other with no gameplay to flesh it out, building up the arsenal in the realities of the current warframe build is a pointless endeavour. Basically, after finishing all the quests and going through the starchart it's game over. There's nothing else to do, no directions to look forward to.

 High-level gameplay could offer a direction to the new players as well as an endgame loop for the veterans if done correctly.

So ultimately, I agree with what you say here. High-level gameplay could most definitely serve as enticement to new players and sustenance for veterans if done correctly. However, I don't think it can be done correctly when players can have one-shotting guns with constant CC. If, as you say (and I agree), that there is no gameplay to flesh out having a OHKO weapon... what is the value in having a OHKO weapon to begin with?

There's no gameplay justification for it; it's just marketing.

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 There is no depth to sacrifice to begin with. That's the problem. Almost all enemies are oneshottable while barely being able to scratch even the weakest of maxed out warframes (apart from certain enemies that are invincible for one reason or another, which is a whole another topic).

Only endless high-level content is able to provide any depth at all, allowing for gameplay mechanics to be fleshed out and time to actually play with them.

And I contend that the reason there is no depth is that there cannot be depth in an extremely low TTK environment.

Meet Bob, the Grineer Commander. His life expectancy is 200ms when faced with superior Tenno weaponry. That means Bob must be able to threaten the Tenno significantly within 200ms. Bob's solution to this problem is to switch-teleport the Tenno into groups of his friends while stunning them momentarily. Bob must do this without any warning or plausible counter, because otherwise even his teleport ability is too slow.

But what if Bob had more than 200ms to live? What if Bob had a whole 5 seconds to live? Perhaps then Bob would have time to launch a high-damage, avoidable attack that could seriously injure an unwary Tenno but otherwise be gratifying to counter/avoid.

Of course, perma-invis/CC spam also need to go for this to work, but I sincerely feel that the game would be better off if it could evolve into something more than a cheese-eating contest.

Warframe is a power-fantasy. And as it is, that power-fantasy falls flat in high-level play because Warframes are suddenly made of wet tissue paper and our guns (save a few) start shooting BBs instead of bullets. I would much rather accept some reasonable limitations to power (no constant CC, no permanent invisibility, no 100% armor-ignoring damage, etc.) in exchange for sustaining that power-fantasy completely throughout the end-game.

Edited December 14, 2017 by DiabolusUrsus
Fixed case of mistaken identity.

[Fallen_Echo]

8 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

What do you mean? *puzzled* I have a couple of guesses, but the way you phrased it leaves your point a bit ambiguous. Could you rephrase it if you don't mind? 

 There is a ton of problems with endless missions and the way they function. I'm not gonna deny it. But as a concept endless missions are pretty much the only possible endgame a game like Warframe could have. There's just no alternative for it.

I meant that if i want to get to a higher aka more "challanging" level i have to grind throught hordes of weak ohko enemies for hours. Its extremely boring.

I agree that we need good incetive to fight those levels as part of the new gameplay because right now its just braindead.

I need a place where i can utilize my minmaxed frames without having to spend hours to get there.

Also a simple damage cap to remove the madness what turns the avarage butcher into the terminator would really help us too.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

12 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

• Unless there is some extra mode I am unaware of, Level 150 is currently outside the scope of normal play. Last I checked, 100 was the max "endorsed" level as presented in Sortie 3.
• I understand and empathize with your point about not having anything to use your maxed weapons on most of the time, but I don't think that's a good reason to push for normalizing Level 150 enemies considering what fighting against Level 150 enemies is currently like. Yes, I enjoy having enemies that can eat more than a couple of bullets. No, I don't like it when those enemies must be locked down with CC for me to not die a horrible, untimely, and swift death.

• It's the same endless missions. Technically we have lvl 9999 enemies in the game, they're just too far off and there's no incentive to play with that kind of content.
• And that's exactly why I'm talking about a hard cap on the enemies' damage scaling, without reducing their bulletsponginess; and some form of damage gating on warframes as well.

12 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Warframe is already saturated on the content front. New players are already faced with a gargantuan amount of "progression" when it comes to mod/weapon/resource acquisition. There's no need to deliberately move the goalpost even further out. Let me put it this way: when I hear "our weapons kill everything on the starchart in 1 hit," I interpret that as our weapons being too powerful... not enemies being too weak.

 No, there isn't any progression. You finish your starchart and quests and all you have is a bunch of weapons and gear to collect for no apparent reason. PoE in this sense is a little self-contained sattire on Warframe in a nutshell: you farm eidolons to get amps to farm eidolons better. And the whole game is like that - there's nowhere to go, there is no goal, no ultimate destination, no reward for efforts put into the game, no place for skill, no place for exploration.

Current Warframe is basically a bunch of toys cramped together without a playground to play with them.

 There has to be a place to go with all your weapons and mods, and maxed out warframes, where all the last bit of gear would be relevant. And you just can't make a game mode like that within the level constraints of the Starchart!

12 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Don't get me wrong; I fully support the notion that we should have high-level end-game content available to challenge our fully-decked out Frames and weapons. However...

Why do we need Level 150 content to fill that role? Why can't we simply curb the maximum potential of our gear a bit (e.g., prevent constant wide-area CC lockdown, tweak permacloaki, reduce damage output) and re-work our existing end-game attempts (Dark Sectors, Sorties, Fissures, etc.) to be proper end-game content instead of unenjoyable failures?  Why are we suddenly accepting the status quo for Sorties as inviolable?

 Because it's a means to the same end but easier to do. Listen to what you're saying. You want to reduce the numerous stats and capabilities of warframes and weapons to cater to the low stats of the enemies, instead of simply increasing the stats of the enemies directly, which is much-much easier and safer to do. 

 What you're talking about is a backwards solution to a straightforward problem. 

 And you're basically suggesting to nerf EVERYTHING in the game, instead of nerfing this ONE THING everybody hates - the high-level enemies oneshotting warframes. No offence, but it's like trying to put your trousers on over the head.

12 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I contend that having such a huge gap between the gear of fresh vs. seasoned players actually serves to discourage new players from getting invested in the game.

 Nobody actually wants to spend all their time striving toward a goal. They want to get to that goal and enjoy the benefits. That doesn't go to say that getting bored from lack of additional goals once you get there isn't a problem; it certainly is, and one Warframe suffers from greatly, but I don't think simply stacking on extra goals is the way to solve it. 

 Wrong. Nobody wants the goal. The second you achieve a goal, it becomes boring. It's in human nature. We need a carrot on a stick that ideally we'll never reach. This is what makes our life worthwhile. This is what gameplay loops are supposed to be designed for - addiction to the struggle for an unreacheble dream.
 It's not stacking on extra goals, it's providing one goal that can never be reached. In grindy MMORPG games such goal would be top-level gear with perfect stats, or PVP excellence - something you can hone for years and years. For Warframe endless missions is the only thing that comes even close - that's why high-level content is so important. That's why it has to be at least 3 digits of enemy levels - something out of the ordinary gameplay we've been facing so far. A game is a psychological mise wheel first and foremost, and Warframe doesn't have what it takes. Not after Void 2.0.

12 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Warframe simply doesn't have the combat depth to pull that sort of end-game off. Fighting a level 150 Heavy Gunner with a fully-modded Akstiletto Prime is exactly the same as fighting a Level 1 Heavy Gunner with a lightly-modded Lato, except with a much narrower margin for error. I'd go as far as to say that I'd honestly prefer fighting the Level 1 Gunner simply because it can actually shoot at me instead of simply standing there stunned while I mow it down.

 Wrong! The enormous difference is that a fully modded Akstiletto Prime requires hours and hours of gameplay to mod, farm and forma. The ability to "mow" these enormous beasts that could oneshot and kill you is a reward on its own - it's a goal that offers a challenge and rewards for effort immediately with a shot of endorphins to the brain. The only thing that is lacking here is another, simpler and more intuitive in-game reward that you'll achieve afterwards, an expendable trinket for your effort. something more lasting and practical - I've talked about those earlier if you remember (ducats, kuva, arcanes and such).

 High-level endless missions is the only possible concept for an endgame Warframe has to offer. There's simply no alternatives to it. The problem is, that it's completely locked behind a wall of boring waiting and obstructed by negligence from the developers, who decided to completely scrap the idea instead of trying to understand and refine the concept.

12 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

So ultimately, I agree with what you say here. High-level gameplay could most definitely serve as enticement to new players and sustenance for veterans if done correctly. However, I don't think it can be done correctly when players can have one-shotting guns with constant CC. If, as you say (and I agree), that there is no gameplay to flesh out having a OHKO weapon... what is the value in having a OHKO weapon to begin with?

There's no gameplay justification for it; it's just marketing.

 Then how can you be sure that a much more complicated task of rebalancing the entire game stats from ground up could be done correctly, if you're not even sure that this one thing I'm talking about could be done correctly? I'm telling you, changing all the stats in the game is insane. Stats are a foundation for everything. Meddling with basic game stats is suicidal and would be wildly unpopular with the community on top of just being a bad idea in general. It's a backwards solution to a much simpler problem.

Spoiler

 OHKO impact damage is DE's responsibility. I can't comment on that. It's weird. To have an effect similar to that today, I need to have ~100% status chance and 2 blast slots, but they're planning to give it to impact weapons by default. WTF?

12 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

And I contend that the reason there is no depth is that there cannot be depth in an extremely low TTK environment.

 We need as much depth as we can afford. It's how this game was designed, nothing could be done about it. After 4 years of open beta it's damage control at this point. Even if DE suddenly start doing everything right tomorrow, making the kind of gameplay you imagine in this game is impossible. Warframe will never be this elaborate, mechanically complicated game. It's too late. We need to work with what we have at hand. And I'm telling you that integrating high-level content that would be rewarding and available on-demand without any timerlocks is the only feasible way to go.

 

 

 

 Only high-level content could justify hours and hours of gameplay put into various mods and gear we farm. 

 

 

 

 

 And high-level enemies actually live longer.

12 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Perhaps then Bob would have time to launch a high-damage, avoidable attack that could seriously injure an unwary Tenno but otherwise be gratifying to counter/avoid.

Not in this game. We need to stay realistic if we're talking about concrete in-game conditions.

12 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Warframe is a power-fantasy. And as it is, that power-fantasy falls flat in high-level play because Warframes are suddenly made of wet tissue paper and our guns (save a few) start shooting BBs instead of bullets. I would much rather accept some reasonable limitations to power (no constant CC, no permanent invisibility, no 100% armor-ignoring damage, etc.) in exchange for sustaining that power-fantasy completely throughout the end-game.

Power fantasy stems on the ability to defeat worthwhile enemies. You first need to establish why those enemies are dangerous to feel any satisfaction in defeating them afterwards. 

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[BlackCoMerc]

4 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

• It's the same endless missions. Technically we have lvl 9999 enemies in the game, they're just too far off and there's no incentive to play with that kind of content.
• And that's exactly why I'm talking about a hard cap on the enemies' damage scaling, without reducing their bulletsponginess; and some form of damage gating on warframes as well.

 No, there isn't any progression. You finish your starchart and quests and all you have is a bunch of weapons and gear to collect for no apparent reason. PoE in this sense is a little self-contained sattire on Warframe in a nutshell: you farm eidolons to get amps to farm eidolons better. And the whole game is like that - there's nowhere to go, there is no goal, no ultimate destination, no reward for efforts put into the game, no place for skill, no place for exploration.

Current Warframe is basically a bunch of toys cramped together without a playground to play with them.

 There has to be a place to go with all your weapons and mods, and maxed out warframes, where all the last bit of gear would be relevant. And you just can't make a game mode like that within the level constraints of the Starchart!

 Because it's a means to the same end but easier to do. Listen to what you're saying. You want to reduce the numerous stats and capabilities of warframes and weapons to cater to the low stats of the enemies, instead of simply increasing the stats of the enemies directly, which is much-much easier and safer to do. 

 What you're talking about is a backwards solution to a straightforward problem. 

 And you're basically suggesting to nerf EVERYTHING in the game, instead of nerfing this ONE THING everybody hates - the high-level enemies oneshotting warframes. No offence, but it's like trying to put your trousers on over the head.

 Wrong. Nobody wants the goal. The second you achieve a goal, it becomes boring. It's in human nature. We need a carrot on a stick that ideally we'll never reach. This is what makes our life worthwhile. This is what gameplay loops are supposed to be designed for - addiction to the struggle for an unreacheble dream.
 It's not stacking on extra goals, it's providing one goal that can never be reached. In grindy MMORPG games such goal would be top-level gear with perfect stats, or PVP excellence - something you can hone for years and years. For Warframe endless missions is the only thing that comes even close - that's why high-level content is so important. That's why it has to be at least 3 digits of enemy levels - something out of the ordinary gameplay we've been facing so far. A game is a psychological mise wheel first and foremost, and Warframe doesn't have what it takes. Not after Void 2.0.

 Wrong! The enormous difference is that a fully modded Akstiletto Prime requires hours and hours of gameplay to mod, farm and forma. The ability to "mow" these enormous beasts that could oneshot and kill you is a reward on its own - it's a goal that offers a challenge and rewards for effort immediately with a shot of endorphins to the brain. The only thing that is lacking here is another, simpler and more intuitive in-game reward that you'll achieve afterwards, an expendable trinket for your effort. something more lasting and practical - I've talked about those earlier if you remember (ducats, kuva, arcanes and such).

 High-level endless missions is the only possible concept for an endgame Warframe has to offer. There's simply no alternatives to it. The problem is, that it's completely locked behind a wall of boring waiting and obstructed by negligence from the developers, who decided to completely scrap the idea instead of trying to understand and refine the concept.

 Then how can you be sure that a much more complicated task of rebalancing the entire game stats from ground up could be done correctly, if you're not even sure that this one thing I'm talking about could be done correctly? I'm telling you, changing all the stats in the game is insane. Stats are a foundation for everything. Meddling with basic game stats is suicidal and would be wildly unpopular with the community on top of just being a bad idea in general. It's a backwards solution to a much simpler problem.

  Reveal hidden contents

 OHKO impact damage is DE's responsibility. I can't comment on that. It's weird. To have an effect similar to that today, I need to have ~100% status chance and 2 blast slots, but they're planning to give it to impact weapons by default. WTF?

 We need as much depth as we can afford. It's how this game was designed, nothing could be done about it. After 4 years of open beta it's damage control at this point. Even if DE suddenly start doing everything right tomorrow, making the kind of gameplay you imagine in this game is impossible. Warframe will never be this elaborate, mechanically complicated game. It's too late. We need to work with what we have at hand. And I'm telling you that integrating high-level content that would be rewarding and available on-demand without any timerlocks is the only feasible way to go.

 

 

 

 Only high-level content could justify hours and hours of gameplay put into various mods and gear we farm. 

 

 

 

 

 And high-level enemies actually live longer.

Not in this game. We need to stay realistic if we're talking about concrete in-game conditions.

Power fantasy stems on the ability to defeat worthwhile enemies. You first need to establish why those enemies are dangerous to feel any satisfaction in defeating them afterwards. 

 

If Endless is the only end game possible, this game is doomed. Repeating the same endless run with a stopwatch running isn't gaming, it's a rat in a maze smelling cheese.

The LAST thing this game needs, is any further focus on Endless Missions. They've done quite enough damage already, having been allowed to stand in as placeholders for actual content for far too long.

[Nirrel]

4 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Because it's a means to the same end but easier to do. Listen to what you're saying. You want to reduce the numerous stats and capabilities of warframes and weapons to cater to the low stats of the enemies, instead of simply increasing the stats of the enemies directly, which is much-much easier and safer to do. 

 What you're talking about is a backwards solution to a straightforward problem.

 

While I do agree that it's way easier to do, but I do not see how is that would solve the problem. Your solution isn't really a solution. It's just a band aid for certain things but it wouldn't solve the problem itself. Apart from the fact that I personally don't want to play 2 hours just to get to challanging gameplay, but I want to click on a mission and feel challanged while doing it, it doesn't matter how much do you increase the stats of enemies, I still have the option just to perma CC him at any level and the only aspect that would change how much ammo do I need to grind them down. Unless you rebalance our abilities you didn't really solved anything. If they do that, wich in my opinion is preatty much impossible at this point, they can surely rebalance it around a level of content they see fit.

 

 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

37 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

If Endless is the only end game possible, this game is doomed. Repeating the same endless run with a stopwatch running isn't gaming, it's a rat in a maze smelling cheese.

The LAST thing this game needs, is any further focus on Endless Missions. They've done quite enough damage already, having been allowed to stand in as placeholders for actual content for far too long.

 What "actual content"? Right now all we have is a choice of less than five minute long parkour simulator missions to a fixed objective without enough gameplay to keep even half of a player's brain from falling asleep. In a game that was supposed to be a COOP for 4 people, we have missions like spy that only has 3 nodes and capture that only has one target. Surely, this isn't what you would count as a peak of mission design. We gotta stop daydreaming - both Devs and Players alike. Look at the game and tell me concrete steps how you want to fix it otherwise. Step by step, so it would be feasible. I'll be happy to find an alternative to endless missions and higher enemy levels, but there isn't any. Nerfing stats is a gargantuous task that wouldn't achieve anything - imagine the result of it in your head and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

 The complaints people have about endless missions is that you have to wait too long till the hard enemies, well, this could be easily solved with higher starting levels. This would make the overall missions shorter, but the gameplay more engaging. It's not a perfect solution, and the mission design we have in the game is... not ideal, to say the least, but what else could be done here? Really, think about it. Warframe needs gameplay right now, as soon as possible and not after another 100 unnecessary damage model reworks, as if it's gonna change anything.

 Developing endless missions into a proper gameplay is the only option this game has. It could be done decent. It's better than what there is now (which is nothing, and even that "nothing" is locked behind a bunch of 24 hour timers).

Edited December 14, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[AperoBeltaTwo]

25 minutes ago, Nirrel said:

While I do agree that it's way easier to do, but I do not see how is that would solve the problem. Your solution isn't really a solution. It's just a band aid for certain things but it wouldn't solve the problem itself. Apart from the fact that I personally don't want to play 2 hours just to get to challanging gameplay, but I want to click on a mission and feel challanged while doing it, it doesn't matter how much do you increase the stats of enemies, I still have the option just to perma CC him at any level and the only aspect that would change how much ammo do I need to grind them down. Unless you rebalance our abilities you didn't really solved anything. If they do that, wich in my opinion is preatty much impossible at this point, they can surely rebalance it around a level of content they see fit.

 After 4 years of Open Beta everything is a bandaid. There's no way to "fix" a fundamental problem like that completely. It should have been preconceived and preplanned during the early stages of gameplay development. It's too late to fundamentally fix anything at this point. For the same reason Warframe isn't gonna suddenly become an open world game just because DE said so. The core of the game is set. It's done. And we gotta work with what we have instead of reinventing the wheel.

 High-level enemies are already in the game, endless missions are already in the game - Devs need to find a way to use them, because there is no alternative.

It's a simple reality of the situation we're in.

Edited December 14, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[BlackCoMerc]

31 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 What "actual content"? Right now all we have is a choice of less than five minute long parkour simulator missions to a fixed objective without enough gameplay to keep even half of a player's brain from falling asleep. In a game that was supposed to be a COOP for 4 people, we have missions like spy that only has 3 nodes and capture that only has one target. Surely, this isn't what you would count as a peak of mission design. We gotta stop daydreaming - both Devs and Players alike. Look at the game and tell me concrete steps how you want to fix it otherwise. Step by step, so it would be feasible. I'll be happy to find an alternative to endless missions and higher enemy levels, but there isn't any. Nerfing stats is a gargantuous task that wouldn't achieve anything - imagine the result of it in your head and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

 The complaints people have about endless missions is that you have to wait too long till the hard enemies, well, this could be easily solved with higher starting levels. This would make the overall missions shorter, but the gameplay more engaging. It's not a perfect solution, and the mission design we have in the game is... not ideal, to say the least, but what else could be done here? Really, think about it. Warframe needs gameplay right now, as soon as possible and not after another 100 unnecessary damage model reworks, as if it's gonna change anything.

 Developing endless missions into a proper gameplay is the only option this game has. It could be done decent. It's better than what there is now (which is nothing, and even that "nothing" is locked behind a bunch of 24 hour timers).

How about Open Map warzones with shifting control points? Dynamic, chaining missions? Dangerous, Landscape style Dark Sectors to explore and loot?

Let's dream a little bigger than "another ten minutes on Mot" because if that's all this is coming to, tell me now, so my wallet and I can make better investments in future entertainment options.

[DiabolusUrsus]

@AperoBeltaTwo

I tried crafting a response to your points, but the mobile editor is playing Hell with my typing frustrations. (On lunch at work.)

I will come back to this when I have a non-work computer at my disposal. I want this discussion to be productive, so my intention is to summarize the points I am responding to instead of using nothing but direct quotations so that we can focus on the core messages instead of getting lost in specific phrasing.

Hopefully you're on board with that.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

10 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

How about Open Map warzones with shifting control points? Dynamic, chaining missions? Dangerous, Landscape style Dark Sectors to explore and loot?

-__- How long do you think it would take to conjure this thing into the existing mechanics and make it work?

 And by the way, open maps are literally endless missions on a huge tile. But with weird spawning mechanics, low enemy density and no scaling. Basically the same thing, but worse in every sense.

10 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Let's dream a little bigger than "another ten minutes on Mot" because if that's all this is coming to, tell me now, so my wallet and I can make better investments in future entertainment options.

Let's not "dream" at all? Let's talk about what is possible with the current game build. Please. Seriously.

Edit: I mean, it's ok to dream. But you gotta be able to connect the dots with reality... somehow. I just realized, I don't know how to do it myself, but anyway. Let's at least try to be real here.

Edited December 14, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

@AperoBeltaTwo

I tried crafting a response to your points, but the mobile editor is playing Hell with my typing frustrations. (On lunch at work.)

I will come back to this when I have a non-work computer at my disposal. I want this discussion to be productive, so my intention is to summarize the points I am responding to instead of using nothing but direct quotations so that we can focus on the core messages instead of getting lost in specific phrasing.

Hopefully you're on board with that.

Sure. I saw your last message yesterday evening, went to sleep and only answered today. It's ok.