Balance the conclave please ( can we have a nerf ) + how to make it better

[korndolorous]

               I'm enough with these broken weapon, ability spamming everywhere, ruin everything that we build for this community. we lost a lot of new player and good player because of these unbalance weapon/ability. We train new player to be a good player, then those bad player show up they spam everything kill everyone they just want to win without caring this community, make new player leave this community, or in the worst case new player turn into one of those bad player.

List of broken gun

Spoiler

Arca plasmor *** need nerf as soon as possible

• very high damage
• very large hitbox
• become deadly (1 shot) with Mirage
• Should reduce damage or hitbox size or both

Rubico

• very high damage per second compare to others sniper
• Should reduce fire rate or damage

Stradavar

• very high damage per second
• low recoil
• Should reduce damage or fire rate or  increase recoil

Viper 

• argument has infinite ammo when did head shot 
• Should reduce argument duration

Sonicor *** need nerf as soon as possible

• easy to knockdown
• easy to spam
• Should reduce explosive range, fire range

List of broken melee

Spoiler

Nikana series *** need nerf as soon as possible

• very high damage
• leading blade (block combo) has very high mobility ( can travel across the map easily ) 
• 
• Sudden spring (pause combo) is easy to knockdown enemy and repeatable quickly (also has high damage )
• easy to spam
• Stance should get rework or reduce damage

Blade & whip series  *** need nerf as soon as possible

• heart of the Imoogi (pause combo) combo has very large hitbox one combo kill
• easy to spam
• Stance should get rework or reduce damage

Machete series *** need nerf as soon as possible

• impending tide (pause combo) has very high damage + knockdown + has very large hitbox one combo kill
• easy to spam
• Stance should get rework or reduce damage

Ninkondi *** need nerf as soon as possible

• Searing sleet (pause combo) has very large hitbox one combo kill
• Stance should get rework or reduce damage

Orvius

• cold duration is too long
• Should reduce cold duration

Dual wielding  

• perfect thrown has very high damage
• become deadly when use with knockdown ability/weapon such as sonicor
• perfect thrown should increase only flight speed not damage

Also I know that melee is weak in the past, but right now they have too much damage, very high mobility and stagger. Hoping for a change in the future.

Over all most or melee have too much mobility Sword Alone should be remove. or bring stamina bar back

my concept is if it has knock down or high mobility it shouldn't have high damage and if it has high damage it shouldn't have  knock down or high mobility.

 

List of broken ability

Spoiler

cc ablilty with 25 energy cost

• use only 25 energy to cast (easy to spam )
• has very fast cast speed.
• have long stagger duration (pull, slash dash)
• long slow duration (freeze)
• can knockdown the enemy easily ( soul punch, sonic boom, Rip line )
• have auto target (slash dash, landslide ) 
• Should increase energy cost

Frost's avalanche

• very high damage
• can pass through the wall 
• Should adding line of sight

Loki's decoy *** need nerf as soon as possible

• use only 25 energy to cast (easy to spam )
• deal damage (decoy shouldn't deal damage unless you rename it turret)
• cast range is too high (can use across the map)
• Should increase energy cost or remove damage

Limbo passive 

• no energy use
• Should use energy

Nezha's warding halo

• deal high damage
• large hitbox 
• Should reduce damage

Valkyr's hysteria

• slide attack deal very high damage ( 1 hit )
• has long range auto target  
• Should reduce damage and remove auto target

Hydroid's Passive 

• can be use with melee combo (such as sparing, heavy blade etc)
• should occur only jump attack or have less chance to spawn tentacle or reduce tentacle damage and remove knockdown

and some little request how to completely counter those broken melee/ability in the future

Spoiler

Chroma's element ward ( this ability reflect melee damage ) 

• reduce energy cost to 25 (from 50) or increase duration to 50 (from 25)
• 60%-100% melee damage resistance
• to counter any broken melee spammer in the future 

or some way to counter melee

• ability that can disarm melee, (maybe titania's spellbind  if target use gun, target will get gun disarm, but if target use melee, target will get melee disarm )

Banshee's silence 

• reduce energy cost to 25 (from 75)
• maybe increase range
• to counter any broken ability spammer in the future

Still cant find the way to counter broken gun ( reduce 100% gun damage is too much)

• Bring stamina bar back to solve melee spammer problem 
• and kick vote button if possible ( I know it's hard )
• add ability cooldown to prevent spaming ability

 

If you guys has any suggestion please comment below

Edited December 12, 2017 by korndolorous
update priority

[artemisfortune]

I suggest you take out the hyperbole, the demands, and form legitimate reasons why a weapon is OP + changes you would make to the weapons and abilities in question.

[Naftal]

Return mobility parity with pve or remove conclave oknpthx.

[polarity]

There is not ever going to be any balance to conclave.  Not in a game in the form players want.  Why?

Because high levels of character customisation are utterly incompatible with attainable balance.  When you go past a certain point there are simply too many variables to work with, that have unpredictable effects on each other.

In purely PvP games like Overwatch balancing characters as new ones are added is an ongoing and fulltime job for an entire team of developers, and they at least have the benefit that there is no customisation, besides which character you choose.  Characters have set weapons and both those and their abilities can't be modified.  In TF2 you do get some minor customisation, but on the other hand, unlike OW, they are not adding new characters that they have to constantly rebalance around.

If you want balanced PvP in Warframe, both the players and the developers will have to accept this fact, and cut back heavily on how much players can customise their characters.  With the number of warframes in the game, I'd go so far as to say that means no modding, and set weapon loadouts for each class.  Players will just have to get over themselves and accept that loss of choice as necessary for PvP.

Then, and only then, can changes be made in one place, without it throwing the whole system out of balance in such unexpected ways, that you essentially have to start all over again (something a primarily PvE developer simply does not have the time for).

Edited December 2, 2017 by polarity

[SevenLetterKWord]

5 hours ago, polarity said:

There is not ever going to be any balance to conclave.  Not in a game in the form players want. Why?

Is it because certain players haven't played a single game of Conclave and therefore cannot reliably assess balance?

Spoiler

 

5 hours ago, polarity said:

Because high levels of character customisation are utterly incompatible with attainable balance.  When you go past a certain point there are simply too many variables to work with, that have unpredictable effects on each other.

Like what?
Do you have a specific example, or are you just fearmongering?

There are not "too many variables".
It's not like players can use Riven mods or 400% efficiency abilities.
A loadout consists of one frame, one primary, one secondary, and one melee weapon, and - for the most part - only one of these can be used at a time.
Warframe abilities are redesigned for Conclave when necessary (Shadows of the Dead, Quiver, Bastille, Decoy).
Weapon special effects are redesigned for Conclave when necessary (Dual Toxocyst, Zakti, Castanas, Argonak).

I'm tired of hearing parrots claim that just because there are a lot of options, balance is impossible.
This is nothing but doomsaying based on imagined future imbalance.

[(PSN)EatZombies]

7 hours ago, korndolorous said:

Nikana series

• very high damage
• leading blade combo has very high mobility ( can travel across the map in 1 sec )
• Sudden spring is easy to knockdown enemy and repeatable quickly (also has high damage )
• easy to spam
• Stance should get rework

Mios ( Blade & whip serie) 

• Very high damage
• heart of the Imoogi combo has very large hit box
• easy to spam
• Stance should get rework

Also I know that melee is weak in the past, but right now they have too much damage, very high mobility and stagger. Hoping for a change in the future.

 

These two weapons, in my opinion, are in DIRE need of slight fixes.

First of all, Nikana's stance has way too much range of the blade. I'm fine with the (most of the time) instant-killl slam since it takes some skill to aim and I'm fine with the dash since it helps you close distance which melee lacks, but the range of the weapon is far too big. You can completely dodge the slam attack and still get killed by some invisible blade that hits you 2-3 times the length of the nikana, even if there is no lag.

The mios is a blade whip, so I'm fine with it having a huge attack range. However, the damage needs a reduction to avoid literally having a 360 degree instant-kill area. 

[polarity]

7 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Is it because certain players haven't played a single game of Conclave and therefore cannot reliably assess balance?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Like what?
Do you have a specific example, or are you just fearmongering?

There are not "too many variables".
It's not like players can use Riven mods or 400% efficiency abilities.
A loadout consists of one frame, one primary, one secondary, and one melee weapon, and - for the most part - only one of these can be used at a time.
Warframe abilities are redesigned for Conclave when necessary (Shadows of the Dead, Quiver, Bastille, Decoy).
Weapon special effects are redesigned for Conclave when necessary (Dual Toxocyst, Zakti, Castanas, Argonak).

I'm tired of hearing parrots claim that just because there are a lot of options, balance is impossible.
This is nothing but doomsaying based on imagined future imbalance.

Nice ad-hominem and straw-man arguments you have there.  Shame about the lack of real arguments or evidence to back up your claims.

Seeing as you already started with the insults, I think it's fair to say that you're probably relatively new to this whole gaming thing, and probably haven't studied the actual design of games at any kind of academic level, otherwise you could have come up with something better.

Meanwhile I've been playing PvP games for over 25 years, and have also studied the technical side of game design from the perspective of a programmer for about the same amount of time, not only reading endless game developer blogs or watching videos of their talks in my free time, but actually studying the subject at University level too.

I've seen enough examples of PvP games to notice that as you add classes to the basic concept, and then ever increasing levels of player choice as to how their character can be customised, it becomes increasingly harder for developers to ever attain balance.  The most they can hope for is an ever shifting 'Flavor of the Month' class/build, that the player-base considers OP/Meta.

I do not need to play PvP in this game, to have a very solid understanding of what affects PvP balance in games, in general.

I've given examples of games where there is a degree of balance, which can be attributed to limiting player choices.  I can also give the same example that many in the industry refer to, showing that complexity leads to balance being unobtainable (tl;dr for that article, they couldn't balance when there are classes, gear, talents, etc., so they had to mitigate the imbalance with a good helping of RNG).  That's one game I have played long enough, and enough PvP in, to have a very good understanding of how the range of choices available to players, affects the developers ability to balance.

Now how about you come up with an actual argument instead of just insults and a textbook strawman, and name one PvP game with RPG type character customisation, that can be considered reasonably balanced?

Edited December 3, 2017 by polarity

[korndolorous]

@polarity @Raynalle If you never have experience in conclave please stop comment, you only make it worse. you don't even know what is the problem inside this community.

@Raynalle if you don't care why you are here.

@polarity you have a lots of experience from other pvp game, then you should know what happen when the meta is gone too far and break the game.

 

[SevenLetterKWord]

1 hour ago, polarity said:

Nice ad-hominem and straw-man arguments you have there.  Shame about the lack of real arguments or evidence to back up your claims.

First of all, what "ad-hominem and straw-man arguments" am I so guilty of?
Secondly, I've clearly provided reasoning to support my points:

8 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

There are not "too many variables".
It's not like players can use Riven mods or 400% efficiency abilities.
A loadout consists of one frame, one primary, one secondary, and one melee weapon, and - for the most part - only one of these can be used at a time.
Warframe abilities are redesigned for Conclave when necessary (Shadows of the Dead, Quiver, Bastille, Decoy).
Weapon special effects are redesigned for Conclave when necessary (Dual Toxocyst, Zakti, Castanas, Argonak).

Meanwhile, you're the one claiming that Conclave could not possibly be balanced: "There is not ever going to be any balance to conclave."
But despite all your sermonizing and self-aggrandizement, you've still failed to identify a single example of what is supposedly imbalanced.
 

1 hour ago, polarity said:

Meanwhile I've been playing PvP games for over 25 years, and have also studied the technical side of game design from the perspective of a programmer for about the same amount of time, not only reading endless game developer blogs or watching videos of their talks in my free time, but actually studying the subject at University level too.

Sure. Did you also graduate top of your class in the Navy Seals?
I'm seeing lots of big talk and very little legitimate evidence.
 

1 hour ago, polarity said:

I do not need to play PvP in this game, to have a very solid understanding of what affects PvP balance in games, in general.

This is the Conclave Feedback subforum, not the "PvP Games, in General, Feedback" subforum.
 

1 hour ago, polarity said:

I've given examples of games where there is a degree of balance, which can be attributed to limiting player choices.

"I've given examples from team-based, class-bound shooters, despite Conclave being neither a team-based or a class-bound shooter.
Maybe I would've known this if I had played a single game of Conclave. Which I haven't."
 

1 hour ago, polarity said:

I can also give the same example that many in the industry refer to, showing that complexity leads to balance being unobtainable (tl;dr for that article, they couldn't balance when there are classes, gear, talents, etc., so they had to mitigate the imbalance with a good helping of RNG).

That's interesting, because your touted example actually has nothing to do with the point you're attempting to make.

The article is entitled "Low Skill Cap and Luck (RNG) in World of Warcraft PVP"; it ostensibly concerns the role of skill caps and RNG in WoW.
The "Conclusion" section says:
"The World of Warcraft design philosophy of catering to the casual player is supported by the global cooldown and built in luck element of PVP combat. These pillars of the design keep the game popular and accessible to a wider audience and mask many of the balance issues in the game. Luck also has the effect of spicing up the game and increasing the skill cap as players and teammates must adjust to failed attacks."

The words "complexity", "variety", "choice", and "customization" appear a grand total of zero times.
What are you trying to pull?
 

1 hour ago, polarity said:

Now how about you come up with an actual argument

I already provided an argument, which you conveniently pretended wasn't a "real argument".

A loadout consists of one frame, one primary, one secondary, and one melee weapon, and - for the most part - only one of these can be used at a time.
Warframe abilities are redesigned for Conclave when necessary (Shadows of the Dead, Quiver, Bastille, Decoy).
Weapon special effects are redesigned for Conclave when necessary (Dual Toxocyst, Zakti, Castanas, Argonak).

You're apparently afraid of some ridiculous synergies coming together to ruin balance.
This is not a pertinent fear; customization in Conclave occurs within appropriate constraints.
Nobody's worried about players custom-building a Franken-frame with all their favorite abilities.
Nobody's worried about players loading up their Gorgons with Lenz arrows.
So what are you worried about? You've spent all this time wailing, "customization ruins balance", and you still can't tell us what the Big Bad Wolf actually looks like.

[Raynalle]

13 hours ago, korndolorous said:

@polarity @Raynalle If you never have experience in conclave please stop comment, you only make it worse. you don't even know what is the problem inside this community.

@Raynalle if you don't care why you are here.

@polarity you have a lots of experience from other pvp game, then you should know what happen when the meta is gone too far and break the game.

 

before try to look cool ask, yes i know about conclave and a lot too, i reach the hurrican rank and i don't like even bother to talk thanks to brat like you, the fanboy ready to defende like no tomorrow just for look cool... grow up already.

 

warframe pvp is never gonna be good, they need to rework all the frame and ability then nerf all the enemy... and the weapon... is just a lost cause DE never really work that hard on somenthing unable to bring a lot of money, fun? nah

[SevenLetterKWord]

27 minutes ago, Raynalle said:

before try to look cool ask, yes i know about conclave and a lot too, i reach the hurrican rank and i don't like even bother to talk thanks to brat like you, the fanboy ready to defende like no tomorrow just for look cool... grow up already.

korndolorous starts a thread to complain about a handful of items in Conclave that he feels are too strong, and suddenly he's a "fanboy ready to defende like no tomorrow just for look cool"?
Where's the logic? Are we even pretending to be reasonable?

Meanwhile, you show up with this magical bit of insight:

On 12/2/2017 at 10:49 AM, Raynalle said:

who care about conclave anyway?
if you even bother to talk about it people will attack you, no one like that or play that anymore but hey.... is perfect anyway...
god damn fanboy, everything is perfect even if no one like it...

What are you even saying? What part of this is supposed to be constructive?
This sounds like basic salt from Google translate.

Who's really doing things "just for look cool"?
The author of a feedback thread expressing his legitimate balancing opinions?
Or you, who came into a Conclave feedback thread in the Conclave Feedback subforum to announce how much you hate Conclave?

On 12/2/2017 at 10:49 AM, Raynalle said:

the cancer of warframe

Oh man, this is embarrassing.

[2035]

On 12/2/2017 at 1:32 PM, korndolorous said:

Mios ( Blade & whip serie) 

• Very high damage
• heart of the Imoogi combo has very large hit box
• easy to spam

Lots of melee are like that.

 

 

On 12/2/2017 at 1:32 PM, korndolorous said:

Limbo passive 

• no energy use
• Should use energy

 I don't think that's the issue or fixes any issue.
 

 

On 12/2/2017 at 1:32 PM, korndolorous said:

Chroma's element ward ( this ability reflect melee damage ) 

• reduce energy cost to 25 (from 50) or increase duration to 50 (from 25)
• 100% melee damage resistance
• to counter any broken melee spammer in the future 

or some way to counter melee

• ability that can disarm melee, (maybe titania's spellbind  if target use gun, target will get gun disarm, but if target use melee, target will get melee disarm )

Banshee's silence 

• reduce energy cost to 25 (from 75)
• maybe increase range
• to counter any broken ability spammer in the future

Still cant find the way to counter broken gun ( reduce 100% gun damage is too much)

 

and kick vote button if possible ( I know it's hard )

I don't think it's correct to implement anything that's 100% resistant to any damage in conclave/one that is funded at low expense, that's as much sense as having bullet proof shatter shields, would not be sensible right?
Sure you can be given an advantage but effort should have a respectable degree of difficulty and acceptable victory when against a counter, not full nullification. 
After all, the ability to fire and melee a "broken melee spammer" is some way to counter melee.

Banshee's silence: 
to counter any broken ability spammer in the future

So a low cost ability to null the new chroma?
At low expense, effort too. Not to mention that banshee can still cast abilities. (Not sure how silence vs silence works)

[korndolorous]

9 minutes ago, Cicadeus said:

I don't think it's correct to implement anything that's 100% resistant to any damage in conclave/one that is funded at low expense, that's as much sense as having bullet proof shatter shields, would not be sensible right?
Sure you can be given an advantage but effort should have a respectable degree of difficulty and acceptable victory when against a counter, not full nullification. 

I'm agree with you, but idk how to prevent them. sometime even Rhino + Iron skin still can't survive that.

9 minutes ago, Cicadeus said:

So a low cost ability to null the new chroma?
At low expense, effort too. Not to mention that banshee can still cast abilities. (Not sure how silence vs silence works)

how about it work on everyone (include player that cast this ability)

Edited December 7, 2017 by korndolorous

[2035]

25 minutes ago, korndolorous said:

I'm agree with you, but idk how to prevent them. sometime even Rhino + Iron skin still can't survive that.

No comment.

26 minutes ago, korndolorous said:

how about it work on everyone (include player that cast this ability)

This is also besides my point. 
What I am trying to say is that some of the changes suggested would not be healthy if placed in practice.

Yes, you could say there are some noticeable outliers but on the topics of what I had mentioned, I would ask you to give it abit more test and thought.

Try meleeing more chroma?
And if there is some form of melee that you see no possibility of countering in anyway. I can't help you.

[(PSN)EatZombies]

5 hours ago, Cicadeus said:

Lots of melee are like that.

To be fair the only melee weapons in conclave that have been giving anyone trouble anymore is the Nikana and the Mios. The Nikana has too far of a dash (which instantly brings you close to someone like no other melee) and an insane amount of range with the pause move set which kills you near 100% of the time in one shot. The Mios literally has a 360 degree kill move with its pause move with extreme mobility. If that's not ridiculous to you, you haven't fought against it enough to realize how broken they are in PVP.

[2035]

On 12/7/2017 at 4:56 PM, (PS4)EatZombies said:

how broken

I never said it wasn't broken, the line just says lots of melee are like that.

[(PSN)EatZombies]

19 hours ago, Cicadeus said:

I never said it wasn't broken, the line just says lots of melee are like that.

Well I never quoted you saying you said it wasn't. Only that you said lots of melee weapons are that powerful when in fact they are not. Only a few select are used because of how much they offer over everything else.

[korndolorous]

update priority
I'll add more gif in the future.

Edited December 10, 2017 by korndolorous

[2035]

On 12/7/2017 at 4:56 PM, (PS4)EatZombies said:

To be fair the only melee weapons in conclave that have been giving anyone trouble anymore is the Nikana and the Mios.

Disagree, 
First of all, idk the trend on consoles but neither of what we're saying contradict each other completely. 

If Nikana is op and Nikana get's dps nerfed, someone could use Dragon Nikana, Machetes are very simular
If Mios is dps nerfed, just use another blade and whip, if that gets nerfed, whips are almost the same.
The weapon is less of the problem imo. It's the system, concept and everything else.

Did you know? Originally all conclave stances were hard locked, you could not travel as fast or adjust as easily compared to what we have now, this was the effect of universally unlocking all stances following the arrival of spinning needle.
 

23 hours ago, (PS4)EatZombies said:

Only a few select are used because of how much they offer over everything else.

Disagree, how much they offer and how easy most people make out of stuff(or someone allowing them to) is a point I won't touch.
This "Only a few select"(if regarding solely PS4) is something I cannot know directly but I from my experience, popular selections in warframe are not always selected because how much they may offer but how much people think they may offer, some choices made from incomplete knowledge and lack of experience. Limited populations and exposure to less styles all while the Melee conclave arsenal offering nothing more then base damage, IPS and attack speeds.

[korndolorous]

3 hours ago, Cicadeus said:

Machetes are very simular

thanks, I completely forgot about machete seires.

Edited December 11, 2017 by korndolorous

[Nazrethim]

On 2/12/2017 at 3:32 PM, korndolorous said:

Nikana series *** need nerf as soon as possible

• very high damage
• leading blade (block combo) has very high mobility ( can travel across the map easily ) 
• 
• Sudden spring (pause combo) is easy to knockdown enemy and repeatable quickly (also has high damage )
• easy to spam
• Stance should get rework or reduce damage

The damage is in line with most of melee weapons and most guns.

Leading blade IS the gap closer attack and it's fine the way it is.

Sudden Spring at best could get reverted back to EEpauseEE instead of EpauseEE. Damage staying the same.

"Easy to spam": We have 3 combos. One basic combo that deals mediocre damage and it's there to scr*w mindless Espammers, a Pause combo to deal damage/knockdown and a quick gap closer combo to catch up players who, shockingly, move away from the sword-swinging techno ninja.

Quote

Blade & whip series  *** need nerf as soon as possible

• heart of the Imoogi (pause combo) combo has very large hit box 360° one hit kill
• easy to spam
• Stance should get rework or reduce damage

Heart of the Imoogi doesn't have a 360º hitbox and it only kills if you get caught in it's death zone, which is about 3m long, 90º cone in front of the user. It has longer range but it deals less damage. It lacks the 360º knockdown of other Pause combos but makes up for it with more frontal range. What you describe as "360º one hit kill" is actually a player steering the combo which is a skill not unlike a gunplayer who keeps the aiming reticle on a moving target while firing the gun.

Again, we have only 3 combos. A useless one, a powerful one and a mobile one. This isn't exactly Devil May Cry.

Quote

Machete series *** need nerf as soon as possible

• impending tide (pause combo) has very high damage + knockdown + has very large hit box 360° one hit kill
• easy to spam
• Stance should get rework or reduce damage

Impending tide has 360º degree but has 1.5-2m range, which is very easy to get out off. The knockdown is at the end of it. The combo is also slow and easy to escape.

In fact this stance needs a buff: RMB combo needs to be faster and cover a bit more distance (like, 1 or 2 extra meters)

Quote

Ninkondi *** need nerf as soon as possible

• Searing sleet (pause combo) can do 360° one hit kill
• Stance should get rework or reduce damage

Wrong again. Nunchaku pause combo propels the player forward dealing multiple hits quickly. It IS capable of killing, but only if you get caught by the 1m bubble it actually is.

The change I would make is to remove the wind-up attack of the RMB combo, as it's rather slow for a gap closer.

 

Regarding melee in general I think only 2 changes need to be done across all melee weapons:

Quickmelee and Dual Wielding melee damage halved (because you aren't limited to close range as you have your gun) and Quickmelee and Dual Wielding melee knockdown on slam attacks removed.

 

Sword Alone is justified because melee needs more mobility, because when you are meleeing you are stuck to the ground, meanwhile guns can operate mid air just fine. However, I would like if we had another, mutually exclusive with Sword Alone, mod that gave damage resistance (essentially a tanky alternative to SAs mobility)

Edited December 11, 2017 by Nazrethim

[korndolorous]

38 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

The damage is in line with most of melee weapons and most guns.

Leading blade IS the gap closer attack and it's fine the way it is.

Sudden Spring at best could get reverted back to EEpauseEE instead of EpauseEE. Damage staying the same.

"Easy to spam": We have 3 combos. One basic combo that deals mediocre damage and it's there to scr*w mindless Espammers, a Pause combo to deal damage/knockdown and a quick gap closer combo to catch up players who, shockingly, move away from the sword-swinging techno ninja.

Heart of the Imoogi doesn't have a 360º hitbox and it only kills if you get caught in it's death zone, which is about 3m long, 90º cone in front of the user. It has longer range but it deals less damage. It lacks the 360º knockdown of other Pause combos but makes up for it with more frontal range. What you describe as "360º one hit kill" is actually a player steering the combo which is a skill not unlike a gunplayer who keeps the aiming reticle on a moving target while firing the gun.

Again, we have only 3 combos. A useless one, a powerful one and a mobile one. This isn't exactly Devil May Cry.

Impending tide has 360º degree but has 1.5-2m range, which is very easy to get out off. The knockdown is at the end of it. The combo is also slow and easy to escape.

In fact this stance needs a buff: RMB combo needs to be faster and cover a bit more distance (like, 1 or 2 extra meters)

Wrong again. Nunchaku pause combo propels the player forward dealing multiple hits quickly. It IS capable of killing, but only if you get caught by the 1m bubble it actually is.

The change I would make is to remove the wind-up attack of the RMB combo, as it's rather slow for a gap closer.

 

Regarding melee in general I think only 2 changes need to be done across all melee weapons:

Quickmelee and Dual Wielding melee damage halved (because you aren't limited to close range as you have your gun) and Quickmelee and Dual Wielding melee knockdown on slam attacks removed.

 

Sword Alone is justified because melee needs more mobility, because when you are meleeing you are stuck to the ground, meanwhile guns can operate mid air just fine. However, I would like if we had another, mutually exclusive with Sword Alone, mod that gave damage resistance (essentially a tanky alternative to SAs mobility)

alright I'll change

[(PSN)EatZombies]

13 hours ago, Cicadeus said:

The weapon is less of the problem imo. It's the system, concept and everything else.

The major issue is the additional damage the stances give on the pause attack. I'm perfectly fine with the nikana stance giving a giant gap closer, but then you MUST decrease the damage of the pause ability to keep that one stance from having the best of both worlds. If they shorten the dash, then keep the high pause damage. There is no need to change the overall weapons damage, just the stance which buffs it far too much. There's a reason you see that weapon in almost every single conclave match in 1st place. It's a fast, gap closer, easy kill weapon and that's the fact of the matter. 

Edited December 11, 2017 by (PS4)EatZombies

[(PSN)EatZombies]

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

The damage is in line with most of melee weapons and most guns.

Yes, because most melee weapons and guns can instant-kill with a spammable button combo. 

This stance has the best of both worlds with range and damage to the point where it far outshines near every other stance. One of these needs to be addressed and tweaked.

[Nazrethim]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)EatZombies said:

Yes, because most melee weapons and guns can instant-kill with a spammable button combo. 

This stance has the best of both worlds with range and damage to the point where it far outshines near every other stance. One of these needs to be addressed and tweaked.

It only instakills if you run with a squishy frame, if you sacrifice some mobility for ehp you can survive it. It also depends on which variant, with regular Nikana hitting hardest (but being the slowest of the 3) and Nikana Prime being the fastest (and weakest in damage) with Dragon Nikana in the middle.

As I said again, it's not that Fateful Truth is particularly overpowered, is that there are other stances not worth using in general for whatever reason. The only change that could sort of adress this situation without making the stance or the weapon class useless is, at most, add a second wind-up hit to the pause combo, with no further change.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Nazrethim