Melee Combat Overhaul

[Paprika]

Yeah, I really hope they get rid of lunges on the melee weapons.

[Ganpot]

Imagine we had a combat grading system like a DMC combo meter that would track how many (different) hits/attacks/skills you perform on an enemy, this would then convey a temporary, degrading damage-multiplier.

 

Lets say for the sake of argument that the system would present itself like the DMC combos, you start at D (1x damage) rank and go up until SSStylish (5x damage? more?).

 

You could for example keep up hitting enemies with your melee basic attacks and building meter, however it would drop you a rank if you get staggered along the way by something.

 

It's a fairly solid idea, but DE would need to overhaul the stagger system before they could consider implementing this.  As I've said before, one of the major problems with Warframe's melee system is that almost no weapons stagger on hit, which means that players and enemies will never get more than a couple of hits in a combo before they get hit in turn.  What's worse is that almost all staggers are based on a luck system, which makes everything unpredictable.  The stagger system as a whole really needs a rework. 

 

 

Yeah, I really hope they get rid of lunges on the melee weapons.

 

I've been waiting for the devs to remove lunges since the day they put them in.  Automatic lunges are almost always a terrible idea, because they take away control from the player.  I'm actually surprised there wasn't a massive outcry on the forums (which is why DE hasn't changed anything). 

[Paprika]

So. 100% stagger on all weapons. That's not bad. I'd like to see that.

[Mietz]

It's a fairly solid idea, but DE would need to overhaul the stagger system before they could consider implementing this.  As I've said before, one of the major problems with Warframe's melee system is that almost no weapons stagger on hit, which means that players and enemies will never get more than a couple of hits in a combo before they get hit in turn.  What's worse is that almost all staggers are based on a luck system, which makes everything unpredictable.  The stagger system as a whole really needs a rework. 

 

This would be a good time to talk about the block and integrate it into the new overhauled stagger.

[i6n0r4n7e-2.0]

Adding a melee stance instead of just pressing E to make a attack.

Presing left click for a normal attack and holding it for a charge attack.

Presing right click to block.

 

So you will be able to attack, attack, block, charge attack, attack, etc.

[Paprika]

Adding a melee stance instead of just pressing E to make a attack.

Presing left click for a normal attack and holding it for a charge attack.

Presing right click to block.

 

So you will be able to attack, attack, block, charge attack, attack, etc.

Or left for normal, right for heavy/charge, and Middle/scroll button for block.

[DarSaber]

Or left for normal, right for heavy/charge, and Middle/scroll button for block.

Which was my original proposition.

[SomeoneSpecial]

Agreed, we are space ninjas and we need to have deadly melee combat skills, what we have now is just annoyin/unsatisfying/unrewarding to use. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

First, DE needs to do something like this (simple pro/con format.):

Heavy Weapons:
Both normal and charged attacks hit multiple enemies.
Massive range.
High base normal and charge damage.
High, if not guaranteed, stagger and resistance to knockdown and stun while attacking.

Large area of effect jump attacks.
Hits enemies in a wide arc around the player, approximately 270*.

Very slow swing and charge speed.
Suffers slight damage dropoff for each consecutive enemy hit per swing. (Justified by the idea that smashing/cutting through each consecutive enemy slows the weapon down a bit.) Applies to both normal and charged attacks.
Momentum carries players a bit further forward than lighter weapons when attacking.

Longswords:
Both normal and charged attacks hit multiple enemies.
Moderate base normal and charge damage.
Moderate stun chance.
Moderate attack speed.
Moderate area of effect jump attacks.
Normal attacks do not suffer damage dropoff when hitting multiple enemies. (With a sword you'd hit multiple enemies one time each, not try to cut through all of them at once.)

Only hits enemies in front of the player, in a 135* arc.
Relatively low attack speed compared to anything other than heavy weapons.
Charge attacks suffer damage drop off in the same manner as heavy weapons, for the same reasons.
Only moderate range, which limits the number of enemies that can be hit somewhat.
Momentum carries players further forward than daggers when attacking.

Daggers:
Extremely high stealth attack multiplier. Still successfully kills high level mobs.
Very high attack speed.
Normal attacks can hit multiple enemies with no damage dropoff under the right circumstances.
High critical hit chance.
High charge damage.
Nearly nonexistent momentum, meaning players can almost stand in place when attacking.

Low base normal attack damage.
Very low range, which severely limits the number of enemies that can be hit at one time.
Charge attacks are limited to a single target.
Comparatively low charge attack speed.
Less useful than other weapons when not performing stealth kills.
Only hits enemies in a 135* arc in front of the player.
Very low stun chance.

Dual Swords:
Normal and charge attacks hit multiple enemies.
Moderate base normal and charge attack damage.
Fast attack speed.
Moderate area of effect jump attacks.
Normal attacks do not suffer damage dropoff when hitting multiple enemies (See longswords.)
Hits enemies in a 270*arc in front of and behind the player.

Lower normal and charge damage than longswords.
Slightly shorter range than longswords.
Charge attacks suffer damage dropoff for each consecutive enemy hit.
Momentum carries players further forward than daggers when attacking.
Low stun chance compared to longswords.

Dual Daggers:
Extremely high stealth attack multiplier. Still successfully kills high leveled mobs.
Higher attack speed than daggers.
Normal attacks can hit multiple enemies with no damage dropoff.

Hits enemies in a 270* arc in front of and behind the player.
High critical hit chance.
High charge damage.
Nearly no momentum, meaning players can almost stand in place when attacking.

Lower base normal attack damage than daggers.
Low range compared to heavy weapons and dual swords.
Charge attacks are limited to a single target.
Comparitively low charge attack speed.
Less useful than other weapons when not performing stealth kills.
No stun chance.

I know people hate the melee step-forward effect, I do too. However, I'm fairly certain they put it in to prevent people from just sitting in one place and chain-stunning a single enemy. I myself was guilty of walking up to Jackal with a maxed charge speed Pangolin, crouching, and just wailing on his leg until he died. It's exploitative. The problem is they made it so pronounced it prevents players from hitting what they need to. The old distance would be perfectly fine, they just need to make it impossible to stay stationary when meleeing while crouched.

Whether following my suggestion, someone else's, or their own, DE's first order of business should be shifting the various archetypes of melee weapons into distinct, preferential sidegrades of each other. Dual Swords should not be hands-down superior to Longswords, and Dual Daggers should not be hands-down preferable to Daggers. Once the various weapons are viable and entertaining, see if the melee system still needs a revamp into a combo system. From what it seems to be, melee benefits from the fact that it integrates almost seamlessly into the flow of gameplay. Devil May Cry does this flawlessly with a single melee button. I'm fine with a 'melee-mode' that allows for more complex input, so long as it integrates smoothly and doesn't interrupt gameplay with the need to switch between melee and guns as slowly as switching between primary/secondary weapons.

In my honest opinion, DE really only needs to do three things to fix melee.
1. Make all weapon archetypes equally viable, and leave things to player preference. This includes multi-targeting for all melee weapons.
2. Improve blocking to the point where it is something actually worth doing. Give it utility beyond a meagre damage reduction.
3. Change melee swing animations (both normal and charge) into ones that flow more smoothly, look cool, and suit the weapon. Maybe even give each individual weapon unique animations. This would have the added bonus of getting DE to release melee weapons with a tad less enthusiasm, and bring a greater variety of weapons to the table.

[PettiTheYeti]

I see a lot of good ideas, and a lot of good points against some of those ideas. My take on some of them;

 

Melee Toggle button

Keep "E" as a low powered, fast attack button. Change "Q" to a toggle for the melee attacks to be used on the mouse clickers. For the equipment menu that is normally attached to "Q", eliminate the menu all-together, and let those be instantly activated by pressing the F1-F8 buttons of the corresponding slot. A small GUI on the left edge of the screen with the equipment icons and key numbers would suffice for the information normally seen in the current "Q" Menu.

 

Styling

I like the concept of implementing similar systems to other games featuring melee. But, seeing as this already kind of feels like a fast paced, arcade style shooter/bash-em-up, lets put in some Street Fighter-esque combo multipliers (whether for damage output or XP gained) including the artistic number popups around the screen, and the number of hits achieved.

 

Combos

Movement and mobility are what ninjas were known for, yes? We shouldn't be L-R-L-L-R-R-L Clicking (with the melee toggle) for combos, but using directional movements. So, Shift-W-A-L-D-R could be a roll to the left past an enemy, slashing at them as you go by, then side stepping back to the right and stabbing them in the back. S-Space-R could be a backflip that lands you behind an enemy that just came up behind you, cutting them when you land. Those may be complicated for an example, but you get the idea.

[QuestComm]

I have some trouble seeing how a melee toggle system with multiple melee buttons would work with the maneuvers already ingame:

 

-How would toggle/multi-button melee work while sliding on the ground or sliding in the air? While falling? While wall-running (vertical or horizontal)? While aiming at a ragdolled/knocked-down enemy? In short, would it revert to single-button melee for situations in which one is not standing, walking/running, sprinting or crouching? If not, what changes would need to be made to the aforementioned special moves to accommodate the change to toggle/multi-button melee?

 

If I get good answers to these questions, I would more seriously consider multi-button melee as a viable option for melee overhaul.

 

Currently, though, I am biased towards adding a damage-increasing combo system to non-charge melee. The way I see it, it would diversify melee by making risky maneuvers such as wallrun melee (when was the last time you saw anyone use that?) more useful.

 

I definitely like Mietz's implementation of a combo system, but I would not have warframe abilities boost one's combo meter. Instead, certain maneuvers would boost the combo meter more than others. Below is a sketch of how I envision it (values are not final):

 

Combo Meter Increases

-Basic Melee: +1 + .25 per additional target hit

-Charged Melee: +0

-Ground Execution: +2.5

-Ground Slide Spin Attack/Uppercut: +1.5 + .5 per additional target hit

-Air Slide (Flying Kick) Spin Attack/Fist Weapon Attack: +2 + .5 per additional target hit

-Ground Slam from Jump (no wallrun): +.5 per target hit

-Ground Slam from Horizontal Wallrun: +1 per target hit

-Ground Slam from Vertical Wallrun (Wallclimb): +1.5 per target hit

-Wallrun Melee: +5

-Stealth Attack (kills target): +0

-Stealth Attack (does not kill target): +3

 

Currently, wallruns in combat are discouraged due to enemy damage being incredibly accurate hitscan (at least for Grineer). A system such as this would refine wallrun maneuvers into a high-risk, high-reward option for beginning a combo in addition to improving non-charge melee in general.

 

There has been great discussion so far, and I hope my contribution gives some new insight on the issue and its possible solution(s).

 

 

[Paprika]

I have some trouble seeing how a melee toggle system with multiple melee buttons would work with the maneuvers already ingame:

 

 

 

I also approve of the DMC combo idea that Mietz suggested. answering your question, it would add more variety to melee. Someone suggested that variation on melee strikes could be based on position instead of multiple melee buttons, and I'm ok with that. I just want some variation and skill-based melee mechanics. tapping "e" repeatedly with the same four animations playing over and over can get boring fast.

[DarSaber]

I must say That I'm very happy how this topic is going. A lot of amazing ideas to improve the system are presented here.

So far there isn't, to my greatest delight, any trolling or nonsensical raging and I very much hope this topic will continue in this state. I hope that as we move forward we will find The system that would fit Warframe the best and improve the overall experience of the game.

Please continue giving your propositions for changes and insight as to what would and wouldn't work.

I want thank you all for your amazing contributions to this topic.

[Paprika]

Actually, what if we could choose what scaled with every combo?

Someone made some suggestions to improve the Bo staff.

He (or She) suggested that it get 100% stagger and that it could push enemies around. Every time it hits an enemy against a wall, a crit would be guaranteed.

 

So I figured, what if crit damge and crit chance increased with each combo hit? What if we could choose which two stats we wanted to scale with each hit? Fast weapons like Dual Zoren could have crit chance and crit damage scale, leading to snowballing power.

 

I also brought this up because the removal of double slide attacks really hurt the Bo's usefulness. Now I'm sad.

[Aeronite]

I was actually gonna make my own thread for this. But here's some things I thing melee needs in order to make melee/stealth more viable versus going in guns blazing. Currently, imo warframe doesn't feel like your super space ninja, it feels like space marines with some ninja background tacked on as an afterthought. So i thought how could swordplay by improved to  make it more ninja-esque.

Toggle melee mode - increased melee dmg while in melee mode, changes fire weapon button to melee and zoom to secondary melee.

Mod abilities based on weapon class dual, single, heavy, thrown, gauntlets. (We would still have all mods available for melee weapons but add a ability mod slot similar to aura slot.)

 

Double jump while in melee mode

Decreased stamina consumption while jumping and using melee attacks in melee mode

Using a heavy attack while jumping does a homing attack

Can execute Stealth kills on any enemy that is not actively targeting you.(does not require melee mode)

Cannot use firearms in melee mode.

Sentinel will not attack while crouching
.

I think there should some sort of combo system maybe using light/heavy attacks or vertical/horizontal maybe. Something to give melee combat more depth and feel more satisfying . I read a lot of very interesting ideas in this thread already I don't feel that i could present something better or add to the table.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Aeronite

[DarSaber]

I was actually gonna make my own thread for this. But here's some things I thing melee needs in order to make melee/stealth more viable versus going in guns blazing. Currently, imo warframe doesn't feel like your super space ninja, it feels like space marines with some ninja background tacked on as an afterthought. So i thought how could swordplay by improved to  make it more ninja-esque.

Toggle melee mode - increased melee dmg while in melee mode

Mod abilities based on weapon class dual, single, heavy, thrown, gauntlets. (We would still have all mods available for melee weapons but add a ability mod slot similar to aura slot.)

 

Double jump while in melee mode

Decreased stamina consumption while jumping and using melee attacks in melee mode

Using a heavy attack while jumping does a homing attack

Can execute Stealth kills on any enemy that is not actively targeting you.(does not require melee mode)

Cannot use firearms in melee mode.

Sentinel will not attack while crouching

.

Would be nice for the sentinel to get lower too. Since even if it wont shoot it still will be seen when it floats over you. You bring some very nice ideas. to which i definitely agree to.

There is already a Stealth thread. If this one would be pinned just under the stealth one then it would be easier for the devs to find the best combination of changes they could use to the melee system with their current idea for stealth segments.