Jump to content
[DE]Aidan

PSA: [PC] Upcoming Changes to Gara's "Mass Vitrify" (Bonus Volt Info)

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, (PS4)DBR87 said:

Honestly this sounds fair. So long as she also gets the part of Globe that has X amount of seconds where incoming damage is absorbed into glass health.

The thing about frost is that couple of seconds can be manipulated to have an invulnerable globe which is a crutch mechanic to even keep globe up in high levels. Gara having that feature won't make this better, because you can't spam glass walls like you can a snowglobe. This change ruins Gara and yet again highlights the problems with frost. If everyone is complaining this is a terrible change, why should Frost have this awful mechanic as well? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going to start with the fact that I do not want this ability changed, now lets explore why.

Allot of people compare garas 4 to frost 3, and some people complain that it is completely overpowered in comparison as it is invulnerable however while this is true snow globe also has an invulnerable period and the ability to stack it, much faster cast time and its lasts infinitely longer and while gara is invulnerable while casting mass vitrify no one else is. this means that while it is strong it doesn't have the utility of snow globe. Another augment that I see people put up is that its another "press button to win" ability and i feel this is nothing but people trying to justify a nerf to a frame, ability or weapon, how can DE's design team justify nerfing something because it trivialises a particular mission when it isn't any better than frames that already exist, If you wish to change a 'press button to win' frame then you need to look at wukong. If you want to make it health based and duration based then all mod diversity will be gone as I now have to do a completely balanced build and I can;t really sacrifice anything in order to make myself stronger. In the end if you make this change mass vitrify will become a slightly worse version of frosts 3 while being in the 4th slot, the ultimate slot if you will, rather than where it is at the moment where it is stronger in certain situations but not all.

If you want to make a change that might reduce its 'press 4 to win' abilities and give enemies some counter play how about making it so that it takes X number of melee strikes from an enemy in order to shatter a section rather than just giving it health, this allows for tenno to still be able to make a counter, counter play by killing the enemies before they hit the glass and also gives it some scaling as it will take just as many hits from a level 150 bombard as a level 1 lancer. This may also give garas 3 more use as a distraction to alow you to take down the enemies before they shatter the shield rather than where it is right now.

Speaking of garas 3, I believe this is an excellent example of how a hp based mass vitrify would perform, and, as anyone who has used gara in a high level mission will know, its kind of useless.

I like the way the defence meta is right now where there are 2 top tier frames rather than just frost, and two that play very differently, it encourages diversity in the game and that at least in my opinion makes it more fun, if this were to change and gara loses one of her best niches then I will be sad. 

People say that gara has other uses other than mass vitrify and while it is true in some sense there is few that cannot be performed by other frames, many of them are tankier, many of them deal more damage, and a lot of them have more lock down so why change a frame that has the ability to say this is my area now when you could just chose a peacemaker mesa and say the same thing. 

Please leave the frame the way she is, the one and only impenetrable barrier

Regards, A Tenno

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's see few of the Warframes' armor value that have an ability with the "Snow Globe" mechanic:

  • Frost (Prime) 300 (300)
  • Atlas 450
  • Rhino (Prime) 190 (275)
  • Nezha 175

Except Nezha that it's borderline, they can effectively use Armor also as a tool of damage mitigation, another thing to note is that Except Atlas' Rumblers, those abilities affected by armor aren't affected by all Ability stat (not considering augments). like it has been already said many times by other users before me, Mass Vitrify is affected by every Ability stat, and it's even a channelling.

Gara has 125 Armor but her option to mitigate damage is Splinter Storm, which in the worst case reaches 28% but if you have at least 130% Ability Strength (Intensify is more than enough), you've already reached the maximum 90%, making the use of an ability far more preferred than adding Armor to the configuration.

I'm also skeptical about the "hole in the wall", I would rather prefer a shrinking mechanic, so that every "section" of this wall can be used in every scenario.

 

Edited by TonnoTuna

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, [DE]Aidan said:

The wall’s health is determined by both your ability power strength and armor mods, just like Frost’s Snow Globe. 

I hope not. First, the 4 have to be more powerfull than the 3 of frost. 

Second, frost dont depends of duration right now, gara does...

Third, and last, only a sugestion of the power scale, this skill have to much range, scale the health of the skill with the range, the more wide is your barrier, less hp it have.

i agree with many people who tell me about how overpowered mass vitrifie is, but this skill have to be powerfull enough to deal with high level enemys. In defense sorties, frost is useless right now, dont do this with gara.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

High level Bombard and Heavy gunner's gonna shred Mass Vitrify into million pieces in matter of seconds.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vor 1 Minute schrieb Amontadillo:

wouldn't it be nice if DE actually responded to the backlash?

I think they will, but its like eight in the morning over there so we might get a response a bit later today

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

I think they will, but its like eight in the morning over there so we might get a response a bit later today

what you mean like the response we got from DE nearly a year later regarding the ash rework, which was just as 'popular', where in a devstream they basically said 'ok we'll maybe look into it again'....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I posted about this yesterday, but I feel it's necessary to do so again because the more I think about this, the more I realize this nerf truly makes no rational sense whatsoever.

Example 1: So there you are, playing Infested Excavation with your duration/range Vauban Prime build. You plant the first excavator, jump on top of it and throw your Vortex on the ground right next to it. Every single infested enemy that get close(they all do) is instantly sucked into the Vortex and is thus rendered completely harmless, allowing you to easily pick them off. This also enables you to easily keep your energy up for yourself and the excavator from drops. The excavator finishes and you move on to the next one and repeat the process. This effectively "locks down" every single excavator you come across indefinitely, as it prevents the Infested from dealing any damage to them at all.

Now I ask - how is this situation any different from Gara's Mass Vitrify "locking down" an objective versus the Infested? Short answer: it's exactly the same. Vauban in this scenario even has an almost identical build as Gara would have in the same situation. So like I said, a nerf like this makes no sense unless Vauban is also nerfed somehow.

Example 2: This time you're playing Mesa on a very high level defense mission against the Grineer. After consuming a delicious pizza you head for the cryo pod, stand on top of it and activate Shatter Shield. Those pesky Grineer spawn and as they approach you activate Peacemaker, completely destroying all of them as they come into view. The Grineer don't stand a chance, none of them are even able to fire a shot at the pod. With this you have essentially "locked down" the cryo pod using Peacemaker.

Now I ask - how is this situation any different from Gara's Mass Vitrify "locking down" an objective versus the Grineer? Short answer: it's almost exactly the same. The difference? Mesa does it quicker for a slightly higher energy cost. Also after placing her glass wall, Gara would actually have to go around and kill all those Grineer herself, because the wall does not do that for her. So like I said, a nerf like this makes no sense unless Mesa is also nerfed somehow.
 

I will clarify that I do not want to see Vauban and Mesa get nerfed at all, as I love playing both of them(5 forma on Mesa). I am merely using them to fuel my argument that Gara's Mass Vitrify should stay as it is and not be changed at all. It simply doesn't make sense to change it because in light of what I just brought up, the change can't be justified. There's a lot more frames with this problem(that isn't actually a problem) in the game that have seen no nerfs done to them at all. If you want to nerf Gara, I'd put a damage cap on Splinter Storm and then she'll be no more "unbalanced" than any other frame.

TL:DR - Every frame has it's niché, it's own little area of the game that they fit in, so please, don't take Gara away from hers.

  • Applause 1
  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Basicly i agree to change the 4.
BUT!!!!
We have to compare it directly with snowgloabe ( a very powerfull protection )

So here is the point.

We don´t know much about this ability after the patch to give a good Feadback!!!
How wide is a section, How much Damage can it hold.
Does it do damage on Breaking.


To be Honest, i would do a bigger change.

Garas Passiv goes to Mirrage in Sun and in Night Invisibility while standing still, and not noticed by enemys till she moves or attacks.

Garra Gets a Passiv to improve Beam Type Weapons and Damages Enemies enemys around her with shlash Damage for each damage she resived. 

Damage of her Passiv is the reduced amount of Damage the armor took. ( so the Armor Scaling )

 

This Damage Buffs Ability 2 to do more damage and on a scaleable range ( with range mods ). Passiv Buff is deactivated while 2 is running and here Damage is Reduced by 15%-50% depening on the damage it does around herself.
 

Ultimate Breaks on small sections with ( 2k on 100% ) ( as wide as 1 normal Enemy )  and deals Slash Damage to enemys around it. 
If Recast, Old Wall Breaks and everyone friendly inside get´s a short damage reduction buff, Enemys recive Slash Damage ( 3 sec, not scalable ) while the new Wall is build.
Buff and Damage is reduced by Size. ( Max Size, only 10% and low Damage -  Minimal Range it is 60% and Medium Damage - but scaleable with Powers. )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

I think they will, but its like eight in the morning over there so we might get a response a bit later today

That's what I'm saying. Wouldn't it be nice if we got a response today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would be, since info posted by them created quite a backslash with a lot of disagreement with DE's decision. I hope this nerf won't make to live. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know how many of you were around at the time Frosts Globe got changed from Duration based but invulnerable to Health based and infinite duration. The Change wasn't appreciated then only the invulnerably phase which added to the Healthpool prevented the community from losing it.

The Change was made to to have a "less stationary gameplay". But in reality it was only to prevent really long farming runs. At that time you could go till wave 200 easy with Frost, Vauban, Trin and Banshee without having to even think of getting damaged.

Now, after long time has passed, we have a other perfect tool against ranged attacks. Which isn't scaling (nothing scaling in indestructible) and duration based. It was really only a matter of time before it would be facing some kind of rework/nerf.

I would rather have a good rework, that allows some sort of scaling than just a swing of the Nerfhammer.

So instead of saying it should stay as it is why don't we give DE examples for interesting reworks which include their "Sections can be destroyed" idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello,

this is just a lazy change imo. This makes her 4th kind of worthless. I don't know what you want to accomplish by this..??

Many People worked hard to get this frame and now you trash it. Seems to be more and more of a pattern, to release a new frame and make it all shiny and powerful and when the next new frame is about to be released its getting nerfed.

Clever from the view of doing business but not so clever as for upsetting your playerbase.

Recently DEs way of doing "Balancing" and "Enhancements" is kind of turning into nerfing a Frame thats powerful and not so easy to get because a ton of People cry "OP OP OP" while leaving other Frames that need some SERIOUS work (MAG HELLOOOOO ????) behind because that would probably take the much needed manpower to release NEW (CASH) frames.

How about fixing the Stuff thats broken, before breaking the ones that are ok ?

Cheers

Edited by Landario
  • Applause 2
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Each section will need to have several times more health than Snow Globe for this to be okay.

Also worth noting, currently ancients and mutalist ospreys can clip into Vitrify enough to shoot their hookshot/vomit through it.

Edited by Neightrix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
il y a 14 minutes, Darkuhn a dit :

The Change was made to to have a "less stationary gameplay". But in reality it was only to prevent really long farming runs. At that time you could go till wave 200 easy with Frost, Vauban, Trin and Banshee without having to even think of getting damaged.

With the relic system there is almost no point to do 200 waves anymore... The sorties may be tricky sometime but nothing like 60+ waves so this is irrelevant now...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
il y a 9 minutes, Neightrix a dit :

Each section will need to have several times more health than Snow Globe for this to be okay.

It'll never be as good as snowglobe since you can just 3sec spam for permanent invul. on snowglobe. 

Even if they gave her walls enough health to survive sortie 3, this change would do basicly nothing but cripple her totally from from being good in endurance runs while still not solving the issue that they have with the ability on the other contents. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vor 1 Minute schrieb Veisper:

With the relic system there is almost no point to do 200 waves anymore... The sorties may be tricky sometime but nothing like 60+ waves so this is irrelevant now...

I know, but I mentioned it because it is important to understand why Frosts Globe was changed to health based.

Wich also applies to Gara's 4th

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vor 1 Minute schrieb SSI_Seraph:

It'll never be as good as snowglobe since you can just 3sec spam for permanent invul. on snowglobe. 

Even if they gave her walls enough health to survive sortie 3, this change would do basicly nothing but cripple her totally from from being good in endurance runs while still not solving the issue that they have with the ability on the other contents. 

This exactly. Well Frost Prime coming out of the Vault in January....another cash cow ..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
il y a 23 minutes, Neightrix a dit :

Also worth noting, currently ancients and mutalist ospreys can clip into Vitrify enough to shoot their hookshot/vomit though it.

Kavat and charger can go through, higher ground enemy clip into it when they jump and it's not even everything that can go through or clip into it.

Edited by Veisper

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, SSI_Seraph said:

It'll never be as good as snowglobe since you can just 3sec spam for permanent invul. on snowglobe. 

Even if they gave her walls enough health to survive sortie 3, this change would do basicly nothing but cripple her totally from from being good in endurance runs while still not solving the issue that they have with the ability on the other contents. 

I don't disagree, although I think the casting speed holds it back from Snow Globe on endurance already. I do think we need an alternative to Frost when doing endurance, and this isn't it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
il y a 1 minute, Neightrix a dit :

I don't disagree, although I think the casting speed holds it back from Snow Globe on endurance already. I do think we need an alternative to Frost when doing endurance, and this isn't it.

That was just for all those saying that she does Frost's job better to justify the nerf tbh. Which is completely wrong.There are certain situations where it was ok to take her over Frost but he was still the safer option in the end. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mass Vitrify is not OverPowered because it's Invulnerable.

It disturbs me to see players accept X as a Defensive variable as broken when it appearances constantly in our Offense.

Stinging Thorn allows any frame to kill an enemy of any level in 5 hits. Octavia can reflect exponential damage onto enemies in an AoE. Splinter Storm stacks Infinity. Undertow stacks infinity. Main, Magnetize, Energy Vampire, Snow Globe, CL, Fatal Teleport, Smite. Come to think of it, DE advertised Smite for this when Oberon Access was up.

The variable of X is common to this game.

There seems to be no problem with X one-shoting the entirety of this game but when it comes to protecting ourselves from those one-shots. It's OP.

To put simply, if Vitrify being Invulnerable is too strong then all accounts of X are too strong. There's no room for double standards with Offense Vs Defense. That's already a pinnacle flaw in this game and it's being made worse with every update. Stinging Thorn is so completely broken yet no one will admit it because we have so many other X kill options. Meanwhile the only X Defense we have is a 4 second exploit of Invulnerability phases and Invisibility. Hmm.. I wonder why invisibility frames are the strongest in the game.

If Mass Vitrify needs more conditionals like Limbo's Cataclysm or Invisibility that's fine but it is not OP because it's invulnerable. So please stop accepting that.

  • Like 1
  • Applause 1
  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...