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[DE]Aidan

PSA: [PC] Upcoming Changes to Gara's "Mass Vitrify" (Bonus Volt Info)

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Sounds like a classic case of nerfing something so weak enemies can deal with it.

I don't play Gara that much but perhaps DE should try empowering the enemies to deal with a warframe's abilities instead. 

If you look at the enemies only the Infested really have a harder time against Mass Vitrify than the other factions. Grineer have grenades and Mortar Bombards and teleporting units. Corpus have flying units that can theoretically go over the wall but cannot for some reason and Nullifiers that break the wall as soon as they touch it. Add a mini-ambulas and you can get artillery for Corpus alongside their own grenades. Has DE thought about how Mass Vitrify will work with Ghouls in the future? Only infested seem to be in a spot when it comes to dealing with Vitrify and they have a couple of  flying units too. The infested Moas could be made to shoot over and up not to mention their jumping. Chargers could jump over Vitrify.

Due to Mass Vitrify being open to the sky it is vulnerable to artillery such as on the Plains. I mean surely DE could come up with a Grineer with a Tonkor? Is this not a better solution? 

TLDR: DE should look at how weak enemies deal with warframes instead of how warframes deal with weak enemies.

Edited by Ascythian
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I think it was needed to somewhat nerf Garas 'Mass Vitrify', but to have the thing scale off of her armor? No sane Warframe player would build towards armor, granted she does have 125 armor which is nice but she also has 'Splinter Storm' gives her 90% damage reduction, so it's kinda pointless to do so. If this does go through, can the duration of 'Mass Virtify' be removed? Not the best thing ever to have a health and duration based wall.

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Hm, you can recast Frosts snow glove to add health of previous globe to the new one. I thought of Gaara like about alternative for Frost, but snowgolbe had one weakness - it wasn't proof for damage in any way. And Gaaras weakness was that it had no "roof". At least, for me, as soon as enemies on Plains can shoot you from really high ground (ogmas or bolkors, for example). And now, as long as gaaras wall isnt invulnerable, will we be able to heal it some way? Cause now it feels that it is weaker, than globe. Also, at the same time globe is 3rd ability, and wall is 4th.

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So, let's compare Mass Vitrify to Snow Globe:

Snow Globe:

  • infinite duration
  • up to 4 instances
  • health stacks almost infinitely
  • instant cast
  • costs 50 energy
  • scales with incoming damage
  • scales off armor (armor mods are viable due to base armor)
  • allows enemies to enter but slows them down
  • can't be shot from outside

Mass Vitrify

  • finite duration
  • one instance
  • indestructible (will be destructible)
  • has cast time
  • costs 75+ energy
  • does not scale with incoming damage
  • scales off armor (armor mods are NOT viable due to base armor)
  • impenetrable from the sides (will be destructible w/ no debuffs)
  • can be shot from outsude
  • can deal damage (if broken by player)

Depending on terrain and usage Mass Vitrify is slightly better, but it's ok given it's 4th skill and we're allowed to have only one instance.

Right now Gara is pretty well balanced for all level ranges, this nerf would make her fall off as defensive frame at higher levels. I'd like to hear reasoning behind this because right now I can't think of reasons to nerf Mass Vitrify.

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vor 7 Minuten schrieb Gendalph:

So, let's compare Mass Vitrify to Snow Globe:

Snow Globe:

  • infinite duration
  • up to 4 instances
  • health stacks almost infinitely
  • instant cast
  • costs 50 energy
  • scales with incoming damage
  • scales off armor (armor mods are viable due to base armor)
  • allows enemies to enter but slows them down
  • can't be shot from outside

Mass Vitrify

  • finite duration
  • one instance
  • indestructible (will be destructible)
  • has cast time
  • costs 75+ energy
  • does not scale with incoming damage
  • scales off armor (armor mods are NOT viable due to base armor)
  • impenetrable from the sides (will be destructible w/ no debuffs)
  • can be shot from outsude
  • can deal damage (if broken by player)

Depending on terrain and usage Mass Vitrify is slightly better, but it's ok given it's 4th skill and we're allowed to have only one instance.

Right now Gara is pretty well balanced for all level ranges, this nerf would make her fall off as defensive frame at higher levels. I'd like to hear reasoning behind this because right now I can't think of reasons to nerf Mass Vitrify.

Because some people were crying around that gara would be op, what is absolutely insane. These are the people who are like ‚if I don’t like it, no one else should have it‘

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb (PS4)hellspeace:

Because some people were crying around that gara would be op, what is absolutely insane. These are the people who are like ‚if I don’t like it, no one else should have it‘

Thats the behaviour i see more and more and its something i simply dont understand. And i dont i don't understand why DE is rushing a not needed change like this. As i said there are Frames that are kind of left behind and need some serious rework for a long time.

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4 minutes ago, Landario said:

Thats the behaviour i see more and more and its something i simply dont understand. And i dont i don't understand why DE is rushing a not needed change like this. As i said there are Frames that are kind of left behind and need some serious rework for a long time.

Because if they make Gara worse, who by the way I was absolutely impressed with how fun she was. Then they won't have to buff other frames. But no seriously can we get 2 versions of this game? One for people who cry for nerfs who probably aren't using the item anyways since it bothers them so much, and then a game for people who have fun with friends and don't mind when something feels a little badass.

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vor 1 Minute schrieb (Xbox One)FISTO ROBOT0:

Because if they make Gara worse, who by the way I was absolutely impressed with how fun she was. Then they won't have to buff other frames. But no seriously can we get 2 versions of this game? One for people who cry for nerfs who probably aren't using the item anyways since it bothers them so much, and then a game for people who have fun with friends and don't mind when something feels a little badass.

Well there is hope. The impression i get from this thread is that the overwhelming majority does not agree with this change at all.

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26 minutes ago, Gendalph said:

So, let's compare Mass Vitrify to Snow Globe:

Snow Globe:

  • infinite duration
  • up to 4 instances
  • health stacks almost infinitely
  • instant cast
  • costs 50 energy
  • scales with incoming damage
  • scales off armor (armor mods are viable due to base armor)
  • allows enemies to enter but slows them down
  • can't be shot from outside

 

you forgot it can be made immune to damage by spamming every 3 to 4 seconds (boring admittedly) because of the initial 4 second period where it's invulnerable and adding damage taken to the health

It can also be blown up from outside using frosts 1

 

You also missed off enemies can spawn inside vitrifys wall on gara

Edited by LSG501
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19 hours ago, [DE]Aidan said:

Hey Tenno,

Just wanted to drop in here and give a little update on some upcoming changes to Gara’s fourth ability: Mass Vitrify. Coming in the next update, this ability will no longer be invulnerable to damage. It will eventually break apart in sections when enough damage has been dealt to that specific section of the glass wall.

The wall’s health is determined by both your ability power strength and armor mods, just like Frost’s Snow Globe. This will give your enemies a few extra options for dealing with Mass Vitrify, leading to some more dynamic encounters when using the wall defensively. 

Please use this thread to discuss any questions or feedback. 

Thanks, Tenno!

Edit: Apologies Tenno, I have moved the Topic to the general news board to allow all users to contribute to the thread.

Okay, before this goes live I would like to ask for one thing and one thing only. Since Warframe is such an interactive game and you’re not normally standing in one spot or looking in one direction, could we get some sort of indicator as to how many sections of the wall have been broken? Something like Nidus’ stack display. For instance, the wall will break apart into sections. Could we get a little wheel or something on our HUD divided into x amount of segments showing how many have been broken and once all segments are broken, the wheel disappears and Mass Vitrify must be recast. I’m asking for this because in any high level or endless mission where enemies are doing high damage in short amounts of time it would only take a few seconds/minutes for Vitrify to be destroyed and your defense node being completely vulnerable. If we’re gonna nerf something because it’s too strong, at least give us some way to monitor the damage taken by our wall with something other than the 100% value shown on Frost’s Globe and Rhino’s skin... I don’t think this would be too hard to implement. 

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il y a 9 minutes, Landario a dit :

Well there is hope. The impression i get from this thread is that the overwhelming majority does not agree with this change at all.

Agree, when nearly everebody who care is agree to disagree on something on the internet you must consider being wrong...

Edited by Veisper
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I feel like this is going to disrupt a lot of synergy in building Gara. 

Gara's armor is only 125, not awful but I wouldn't call it enough for an armor build. So I'd only ever put Steel Fiber or Armored Agility for improving Mass Vitrify. In addition, out of our Power Strength Mods, two of them directly conflict with the rest of her kit. Transient Fortitude hampers duration which makes her Shattered Storm a little less efficient, but Blind Rage is an absolute no-go because her kit is so energy intensive to get the best Synergy. 

We don't know what the base levels are going to be though so that could make things better or worse....

I think if I really wanted to feel this change wasn't a debilitating nerf, I'd ask that if Gara's Mass Vitrify wall got the Frost Snowglobe treatment, it'll be the FULL treatment; that invulnerable period that any damage it takes are simply added to the base HP, allowing it to scale to higher levels. Maybe you could add it that Gara herself adds any damage receives while it expands adds to the HP

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Without knowing the exact numbers, it's easy to say that this pending change will do 1 of 2 things to Gara: make her a worse version of Frost or relegate her to a melee range damage frame.

Frost's Snow Globe

  • Can place up to 4
  • Limited by health, can be damaged
  • Allows enemies through
  • Disallows projectiles from the outside
  • Does not disappear except when killed
  • Base cost 50 energy
  • Constantly slows enemies within it
  • Slows allies if Frost is irradiated

Gara's Mass Vitrify

  • Limited to 1 instance at a time
  • Cannot be damaged
  • Disallows enemies passing through except from above
  • Can paralyze allies if Gara is irradiated
  • Paralyzes enemies upon initial cast
  • Starts at 75 energy + up to 110 energy for a max size wall (almost 4 times the cost of Snow Globe)
  • Allows friendly projectiles from both sides

By changing the ability from duration based to health based we are essentially making it a single use snow globe with no roof, with no extended CC, that can be broken into, with 1.5 to 3.7 times the cost, oh and it lasts a minute. I'm fine with removing the invulnerability during channel, it didn't make sense to me to begin with, but with the rest of the change you may as well just remove Gara's Mass Vitrify and copy paste Snow Globe into that slot. Having the new MV scale off of Gara's Armor and Health doesn't help the issue because her Splinter Storm exists along with its up to 90% damage reduction, at 300 health and 125 armor, Vitality might be useful, Vigor is garbage, Steel Fiber/Armored Agility/Stand United/Whatever aren't worth the slot because of 125 base armor and Splinter Storm. If we could place Spectrorage multiple times to fill in the hole then that could be interesting gameplay but Spectrorage is limited to one instance. Meanwhile MV is getting nerfed, 4/5 of the ability are underground unless Gara bullet jumps prior to casting.

[rant]

  • Mesa melts the entire map
  • Banshee melts the entire map
  • Nezha melts everything in view
  • Banshee staggers the entire map
  • Equinox melts the entire map
  • Equinox sleeps the entire map
  • Saryn melts the entire map

There's a lot of frames that _______ the entire map but somehow Gara protecting the defense objective for a minute is the problem here.

[/rant]

 

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Seriously the only thing i can think of its OP was the Mass Vetrify has the ability to freeze all enemies including bosses!! Not the invulnerability of the wall !! I'm a long time user of Gara now, I used her since her release and this changes makes me feel so sad for her. Her 4th is already balanced, I don't want another frost like skill and it's only makes worst than snow globe. Every frame has its own especiality, bullet proof glass is a real thing don't you think??

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8 minutes ago, kiritochan18 said:

Seriously the only thing i can think of its OP was the Mass Vetrify has the ability to freeze all enemies including bosses!! Not the invulnerability of the wall !! I'm a long time user of Gara now, I used her since her release and this changes makes me feel so sad for her. Her 4th is already balanced, I don't want another frost like skill and it's only makes worst than snow globe. Every frame has its own especiality, bullet proof glass is a real thing don't you think??

Totally agree.  There are other frames that can do what she is doing with her 4.  She will not have a place in most parties anymore.  She will go into the not used category so many frames are in.   

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After many hours of playing Gara, I can say she's extremely good but not broken to a degree as people think. I've played against lvl 500+ enemies as Gara, and her wall becomes the only thing good about her but warframe is a buggy game so her wall sometimes lets enemies shoot through it. It's a extremely good ability but it's not overpowered. I always felt as a support that can be used at sortie lvl but not above it. Since here 1 and 3 are mostly meh pass lvl 200+. At that point, gara becomes useless and her only good ability is her wall. Please don't nerf the only good thing about her in high lvl survival otherwise she will be a long casting frost. There are times when I'm casting my Mass Vitrify and the i-frames that you get from it are completely useless at lvl 200+ because right after you're done casting that wall won't appear until the end of animation. You get to stand completely still and die instantly. This game's scaling for enemies has always be terrible. If you're not going fix the scaling in this game, the don't bother nerfing frames. We players already have to deal with cheap 1 shot AI borderline prefiring every corner in the game. We're force to take the fun out of game and use 1 shot weapons, i-frames, and etc. Napalm's still deal dmg through walls. Corpus techs still shred you. High lvl infested aoe's become 2 large and 1 shot players. Buff frames or fix your balance, don't bother nerfing the only thing that carries in endgame. Warframes are the only thing that scale. Weapons don't scale into infinity. At some point enemies become too powerful and your weapons need buffs from your warframe and or striping armor. Instead of nerfing, how about making her 1 and 3 not freaking useless. I think it's dumb that DE would nerf a frame in this state armor being the most broken thing in the game for enemies beside their dmg become insanely unfair to the player. It's silly really.

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20 hours ago, [DE]Aidan said:

After conveying some of the most common points of feedback from this post to the design team we have some adjustments to our changes to Gara’s Mass Vitrify! 

First, the ability will no longer be affected by Duration. Its longevity will be determined solely by its health, or whether or not the player decides to break it with Shattered Lash. We are also reviewing the wall health values incase further changes are needed. Second, when each section of the wall breaks, it will deal AoE damage that will scale with ability Strength Mods

As always, we want our community to remain engaged in the way we make adjustments to our Warframes, especially once they actually get their hands on them. In Gara’s case we just didn’t feel it was appropriate to her kit to be able to lock down some maps indefinitely or otherwise. Power design is a reciprocal process and we simply can’t account for every possible combination of mods, situational use, and play styles in our designs, that is why we are so fortunate to have a dedicated and cooperative community to offer feedback to collaborate with. Once these changes go live, have at ‘em and bring us your thoughts. 

Bonus Info: We also have some exciting adjustments to our recent Volt changes. As you may recall, we were still actively reviewing the Damage aspect since the day we made the change (Prime Time with Steve explained this!)We have decided to remove the damage cap and raise the damage per second of Discharge, improve its synergy with Shock and we are also halving the energy costs of carrying around Electric Shields. Volt should now be given a bit more protected movement (albeit it with some energy cost), as well as just simply deal more damage overall! 

Hey all, I have edited the main post with some new information. :) Thanks for your feedback Tenno!

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For the people saying that gara is OP probably havn't gotten any of her parts in her foundry yet. the moment I got gara to rank 5 I already figured out most of her weaknesses. rank 10 I knew all of her weaknesses in all of her abilities. gara is far from op, she's just what is potentially the best frame that DE has released as of yet. she's balanced in stats and ability damage. All of her abilities truly synergize with each other to the point where its beyond perfect even master tailored to do so compared to their previous releases. that is why this nerf is realllllly going to hit hard even though it may seem like a small change -- its actually a HUGE change to her synergy. Which will render her useless and probably the new least used frame when this nerf goes through.

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20 hours ago, [DE]Aidan said:

and we are also halving the energy costs of carrying around Electric Shields

I don't even play volt, but I'd be glad if you remove it.

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il y a 6 minutes, [DE]Aidan a dit :

As always, we want our community to remain engaged in the way we make adjustments to our Warframes, especially once they actually get their hands on them. In Gara’s case we just didn’t feel it was appropriate to her kit to be able to lock down some maps indefinitely or otherwise. Power design is a reciprocal process and we simply can’t account for every possible combination of mods, situational use, and play styles in our designs, that is why we are so fortunate to have a dedicated and cooperative community to offer feedback to collaborate with. Once these changes go live, have at ‘em and bring us your thoughts. 

So, there is on this thread more than 400 messages saying this change is bad for the frame but you don't listen. We don't even need to play it with the changes to know this is bad.

R.I.P. GARA

Edited by Veisper
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I'm usually the first to defend nerfs as they are necessary at times, but I'm concerned about this change.

Edit: read the updated post that it is no longer duration based. How will it scale with enemy damage though? It doesn't seem like it could stack with itself like Frost's bubble does to increase it's health. Won't this just create a playstyle that forces Gara to remain in place at all times to repeated recast her 4th?

With this change will you also be looking over Spectrorage to make it useful? The ability doesn't scale which means it serves very little function. Now that her 4th has health, will Spectrorage now be invulnerable to balance it and give it purpose to divert enemies from the vulnerable, non-scaling 4th ability?

Edited by (PS4)Riko_113
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7 minutes ago, [DE]Aidan said:

Hey all, I have edited the main post with some new information. :) Thanks for your feedback Tenno!

No duration, but health. each segment will deal aoe damage based off of power strength. wall's total based health is currently being reviewed so again we'll see if it'll be good enough for high level content. but overall now that is a change that can be seen at as a buff due to the aoe damage upon breaking of segments. now that is something that's actually interesting to see when it comes out

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