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PSA: [PC] Upcoming Changes to Gara's "Mass Vitrify" (Bonus Volt Info)


aidan890

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1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

The biggest issues with gara is the low height of the wall and That it is doesn't follow the terrain - means its completely useless on the the hills of eidolon unless you jump, stand on boxes etc.  Even then, since the drop ships and spawning troops generally drop on your head (ie inside the wall), the open nature of her "defense" just doesn't hold up.

8 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Remember when you first released Gara? Mass Vitrify was a mess. Then you gave it downward verticality. What you forgot is how much verticality it was going to get. Now, you guys are thinking that it has too much protection, and I think that's because of one thing, Mid-Air Casts. Casting after a bullet jump can create a MASSIVE cylinder of protection that does, in fact, render frames like frost useless. This is why I know you are nerfing the ability, but health amount isn't the right call. Believe me. Gara is not a knock-off frost, she's her own thing.

These two comments nicely present 2 things. First, that the MV was buffed in a past to make it better. Now DE nerf it because it is too good. What if DE reverse buff from that time and then after a week of players playing with it, they decide if DE like it or not. Or disable cast mid air as proposed. Second, in Plains, her MV is weak because of flying enemies and ships. Against corupted it is also bad because of nullifiers and the fact that enemies SPAWN INSIDE of MV rendering ability weak. Grineer and Corpus have ways to deal with it. Only infested have problems so... Why not buff infested? Allow them to jump above? Allow them to charge through after 1 or 2 second of standing in front? 

 

Even if area is locked down, enemies are still there. Enemies that if not killed fast enough, will hurt. Especially on higher level. 

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Hi there!

Quite frankly: unless the wall's sections have a huge (and I mean HUGE) base health and benefit immensly from the mods mentioned I have my serious doubts it will be a worthwhile ability beyond the starchart anymore. If you are currently considering numbers evolving around Frost's Ice Globe and just to add them to the wall instead, I recommend to take Frost, going into a sortie and trying to defend anything with an >unstacked< globe, because that's what I have the impression, is Gara getting here - an unstackable globe as her area defense tool (not to mention casting time and more costly than a single globe). I also don't want to go too deep into it, but I also am concerned about how one is supposed to mod her after these changes and fear another Vauban situation. Meaning she might end up needing too many stats, unachievable, to play her smoothly. I mean, are we supposed to put Streamline, Fleeting Expertise, Vitality, Steel Fiber, Intensify, several duration mods and several range mods into 8 slots (and that's just to make her "work" after the change) or are we expected to play her like Trinity only using one or two abilities? That would be a shame. Speaking of which her 3 is already pretty bad due to the mirrors having essentially no health and no scaling when reflecting damage. I recommend again to take this ability into the sorties and watch it evaporate in mere seconds.

I think more subtle ideas regarding the wall would have been changes such as:

- Making her wall slowly "shrink" back when taking damage. That would actually be dynamic and change the battle circumstances without forcing her immediatly to recast her 4 once a single section brakes.

- Letting enemies walk (but not shoot) through the finished wall, while still getting a (maybe slower version of) the vitrification applied to them

- Keep the sections idea, but let the wall stack by casting it and adding additional health when the new liquid glass goes over the existing one, also repairing broken sections.. If sections break under enemy fire, they deal damage/stun/blind/ragdoll. Heavily reduced energy costs and casting time would be needed for that. It still would lock her down - not dynamic.

That are just a few random ideas an idiot like me came up with while typing of course and what do I know? Certainly nothing about programming nor game design - that's for sure -, but I played this game quite a bit and can tell you that there should be a less damning solution than demoting Gara to a "starchart-onlyuse2-frame", because her 2 might end up to be her only >strong< ability after she goes the direction you want to take her. 1, decent, but nothing crazy. 2, strong. 3, sorry to be that blunt, but trash. 4, I guess we'll see.

Thanks for your effort and time.

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Volt losing the damage cap? Madness. 

For real though, about time. He's been a few-trick pony for too long. 

 

Gara's thing losing invulnerability... question. Will SHE lose invulnerability while casting it, too? Please keep that bit in, it was what made her actually somewhat catch my eye, because it seems like with the direction the game is going, we really need tools like that. 

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"Just wanted to drop in here and give a little update on some upcoming changes to Gara’s fourth ability: Mass Vitrify. Coming in the next update, this ability will no longer be invulnerable to damage."
Okay ... that was strong. Perhaps we're getting a better mechanics where frozen enemies create exponential value to Mass Vitrify?
"It will eventually break apart in sections when enough damage has been dealt to that specific section of the glass wall."
Huh, wait why is that happening? This sounds counter intuitive to the concept of a wall that's supposed to stop everything.
"The wall’s health is determined by both your ability power strength and armor mods, just like Frost’s Snow Globe."
This disregards that Gara has a base armor of 125 to Frost's 300 at level 30.
Umm, did you review Frost's QoL and public reception before giving Gara a Frost treatment?
The direct overlap in playstyle didn't raise an alarm?


Snow Globe promotes static limited gameplay to the extent of limited visibility and blocking allied fire unless you huddle within.
Making it vulnerable to make things more fun seems backwards in approach.
It presents an ability that on paper does not present well in terms of viability.
Creating a virtual duality between CC and protection does not bode well. Enemies take much too long to "freeze" under these conditions and easily reach the caster should they release prematurely therein making Gara's ultimate just a snow globe.
Why dare CC when you can just make a globe?

Meanwhile frost has access 4x Gara's ultimate(with a roof on it an augment to auto stop enemies) armor stripping and AoE cc from his ultimate which is readily spammed a tad ironic.

Why is this recipe to be mimicked if we have Frost?

"This will give your enemies a few extra options for dealing with Mass Vitrify, leading to some more dynamic encounters when using the wall defensively."
Eximus leech and nullifier units weren't enough? :)

I'm sorry tell me again why Frost's 4-cast Snowglobe should become Gara's Ultimate but with 1 cast and no cc thereafter?
===========================
At this rate I see
1) Shattered lash no longer taking values from melee mods or steel charge
2) a) Splinter armor gaining a flat 75% reduction but becomes a LoS castable or Affinity range castable to all allies

Then there would be no reason to add forma or use her beyond affinity because she's just a budget frost with 100x the effort and a cod piece.
Whereas you can link your warframe account and get a free frost prime...

The damage loop from Splinter armor, Shattered Lash, and Mass Vitrify is nice but seems unintended and awkward given the duration and range desired to maintain it alongside the power output and multiple instances required for casting to reach those levels of damage.

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21 minutes ago, Vinterra said:

Great changes, I was ok with the old version but to be honest it was little bit too easy.

Enemies shouldn't be completely helpless and it makes absolutely sense they are able to break glass :-)

Only infestested are helpless. Grineer have grenades and tough units. Corpus have nullifiers and drones. Corrupted doesn't even care about Gara wall and SPAWN INSIDE it + Corrupted nullifiers. 

If enemies have problem with a wall, why not GIVE ENEMIES way to counter it? Grinner AI is more likely to use grenades. Infested jump over it. Corpus uses more grenades too. Corrupted are fine. These things were mention on top of other valid and good arguments why Gara's MV shouldn't be nerfed like that. 

Also if you think Gara's MV makes game too easy, let me introduce you to Limbo, Rhino, Frost, Vauban,  Banshee, Octavia, Mesa, Equinox,  who also makes the game easy in similar or other way either by killing enemies in a second or CC the **** out of them. 

From your comment it looks like you didn't read most of the posts here, which have strong and valid arguments to defend Gara. 

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Just for when such unnecesseary changes come while a frame still has downright useless skills i have saved this image.

JZAYlBO.jpg

Gara for me was already hardly useable, 2 out of 4 skills are useless. Now its gonna be 3 out of 4 we have moved her to the wukong levels of usablility.

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18 minutes ago, Vinterra said:

Great changes, I was ok with the old version but to be honest it was little bit too easy.

Enemies shouldn't be completely helpless and it makes absolutely sense they are able to break glass :-)

Again, enemies are not completely helpless. Naplams deal dmg with aoe through her shield and CAN one shot you(Even with your 2 up, you can not tank lvl 150+ enemie). Nullies are still a big issue for her even with reduce range. If enemies get close enough to gara's shield, their gun can clip through it and shoot you sometimes. They need to focus more on buffing older frames like atlas instead of nerfing new ones so liberally. I feel like people haven't taken her on endgame survivals (No not sorties. I'm talking about lvl 150+ enemies). Her 4 is the only ability that useful at that point. Taking that away from her would handicap her severely. With a 300 minute run on mot as gara with a mag buddy of mine, we could setup chokes and funnel enemies. When he went down, I would cast my 4 but at the end of it I was die instantly due to lvl 350+ enemies dealing insane dmg. Until she's able to literally oneshot lvl 300 enemies like mag post rework. She doesn't need this change. Gara is not easy endgame. She just keeps the team from getting oneshot from cheap enemies. In order to do anything endgame, you HAVE to TRIVIALIZE the gameplay. In other words, fix enemy armor scaling and dmg scaling then nerf frames.

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Yeah I was worried about the ability duration since making the wall vulnerable is clearly a nerf, I'm glad that has been addressed.  Now if we could just fix her 3rd ability, it's borderline useless in its current state, or maybe create a synergy with her other abilities. 

Overall, this is just one huge nerf which she doesn't need. You guys should be working on fixing her 3 instead of nerfing the best ability she's got. 

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It become too close to  frost power for me (same mechanic etc) and there is some issue :

Fisrt the permanent lock of map will be greater in low lvl (or higher if out of sight) because MF don't expire and at low lvl they will deal to less damage to break it, and enemies won't shoot the wall it if you are out of sight ( if they can"t target the wall). So you can easly lock  entrance in many missions.

Second, gara MF protect only in horizontal plan, if enemies are upper they can shoot trouth, and some time if they climb at the border of the wall they can pass trough too. Two point that make  already MF not perfect. If it become destructible it will become realy bad (and something like his 3rd power)

 

I don't realy know how to change it. I think the wall must grow above and less below, to not have to jump to have a decent wall.

Or may be changing it totally with his third power :

-1st iidea : Mass Vitrify don't creat a wall, still vitrify enemies, but refresh and restore the 3rd power too (and 3rd power need  better HP,  a % reflect damage too, and  enemies can't target inside 3rd power)

-2d idea : (compatible with the 1st) MV vitrify all surface, all enemies in this area can be targeted even if they are out of sith (or behind a wall), and WF bullet can shoot trough vitrified obstacle/wall/door/other.

 

 

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1 hour ago, LEGION346 said:

Only infestested are helpless. Grineer have grenades and tough units. Corpus have nullifiers and drones. Corrupted doesn't even care about Gara wall and SPAWN INSIDE it + Corrupted nullifiers. 

If enemies have problem with a wall, why not GIVE ENEMIES way to counter it? Grinner AI is more likely to use grenades. Infested jump over it. Corpus uses more grenades too. Corrupted are fine. These things were mention on top of other valid and good arguments why Gara's MV shouldn't be nerfed like that. 

Also if you think Gara's MV makes game too easy, let me introduce you to Limbo, Rhino, Frost, Vauban,  Banshee, Octavia, Mesa, Equinox,  who also makes the game easy in similar or other way either by killing enemies in a second or CC the **** out of them. 

From your comment it looks like you didn't read most of the posts here, which have strong and valid arguments to defend Gara. 

Don't forget ancient healers can pull you through the wall.

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On 12/4/2017 at 10:53 AM, [DE]Aidan said:

just like Frost’s Snow Globe.

We don't need that. We have Frost for that. Making Gara's ult overlap in build approach and play style with the #3 ability of what is already one of the most popular frames is only going to have the effect of reducing choices. Unlike Frost, she cannot repeat casts to stack health, and she doesn't have the stats or other ability scaling to benefit from building to account for that limitation. Besides, making Mass Vitrify health-based with damage on destruction would make it redundant next to Spectrorage.

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I've played Gara almost exclusively since her release and I've got to say I'm very disappointed in this decision.

Was her glass shield overpowered?

Yes - but only vs the enemies who couldn't circumvent it entirely anyway, whether by shooting through it (glitching gun barrels / punchthrough), pulling through it, hitting through it with AoE etc.

Now we have an Ultimate which is seemingly being balanced vs Frost Globe in a direct comparison. Except Frost Globe is a T3 ability and Mass Vitrify is T4.

I'd really rather not see time wasted with "as it takes damage parts of it break" rubbish. If one section is being hit enough to break, then you're not going to leave the glass-shield up, because it's now got a bloody great hole on the side you're being attacked from anyway. So you'd recast it to remove that weak/open section. So PLEASE don't waste time on this mechanic.

Now we're going to end up with an Ultimate ability whose only purpose is to fuel Gara's #2 ability as it's worth as a wall will be greatly reduced. Health AND Duration? Do you even play Gara (or WF for that matter)? How did the idea to have both drawbacks applied to an ultimate ever make it past the first 10 minutes of a meeting about this ability? Why was Gara released if you thought that her ult was overpowered, or was she just not tested enough?

What needs to be done on this route:

  • No DURATION
  • Do NOT mess with how it's cast. Air casting is a sound tactical use - if you want to change anything, just make it 30ft tall to begin with so we don't NEED to air cast. This really is a moot point though. This is not the problem with this ability.
  • Scale like Frosts Globe but ALSO be invulnerable/absorb damage during the first 4 seconds of it being hardened as with Frost Globe as well
  • Maybe have the duration be a function of that invulnerability. So a 30 second globe might have 15 seconds of invulnerability once cast. Once that duration is over the ability remains but is only now subject to health.
  • Solve the problem that Gara cannot recast/stack Mass Vitrify like Frost can with his Globe
  • Solve the identity crisis of Gara's wall - If you're nerfing it because it made Frost Obsolete, rework the ability entirely as if you make it worse than Frost globe simply because "Frost is globe / defence guy"  then Gara's ability needs a unique identity to stop that comparison.
  • Increase Gara's base armour from 150 to 300
  • When destroyed by the enemy or recast it does the AoE damage as if destroyed by Gara's #1
  • Fix the bugs that let enemies exploit their way past the barrier in the first place
  • Limit the drop points in PoE so that enemies can't circumvent the frame that came with PoE entirely by simply dropping over it from aircraft
  • Remove nullifiers from the game

 

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4 hours ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

- Making her wall slowly "shrink" back when taking damage. That would actually be dynamic and change the battle circumstances without forcing her immediatly to recast her 4 once a single section brakes.

- Letting enemies walk (but not shoot) through the finished wall, while still getting a (maybe slower version of) the vitrification applied to them

- Keep the sections idea, but let the wall stack by casting it and adding additional health when the new liquid glass goes over the existing one, also repairing broken sections.. If sections break under enemy fire, they deal damage/stun/blind/ragdoll. Heavily reduced energy costs and casting time would be needed for that. It still would lock her down - not dynamic.

I like these ideas, particularly the second one. It might be too similar to Frost though.

On 05/12/2017 at 5:53 AM, [DE]Aidan said:

we just didn’t feel it was appropriate to her kit to be able to lock down some maps indefinitely or otherwise

Reducing the max range could help in this regard. Limbo can also lock down maps though.

In regards to Mass Vitrify, perhaps a consideration could be that:

- Reduce the max radius as needed. The wall is now Molten glass. Increase casting speed. Change cast to make it start tall, but have the height shrink as it the radius expands.

- Enemies can walk (not shoot) through the wall, but get coated by molten glass. Power Strength affects how quickly the enemies get frozen.

- Wall is invulnerable, but wall decays (melts/shrinks height) over time (like limbo's cataclysm), with the decay accelerated as more enemies walk through. Stays as Duration based ability.

 

I nervously await your changes to Gara. Please don't put baby in a corner.

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17 hours ago, Esplodin said:

No it is not, as pointed out by several other people in this thread.  Snowglobe does everything better, including area lockdown and invulnerability.  

let me know when snowglobe has the cc of vitrify. it can only compete when it has the augment. and invulnerability? unless i misread the whole changes thats simply not true. vitrify provides immunity and cc during cast, and its a lot longer in duration compared to what snowglobe does. and no im not going through 20+ pages.

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10 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

let me know when snowglobe has the cc of vitrify. it can only compete when it has the augment. and invulnerability? unless i misread the whole changes thats simply not true. vitrify provides immunity and cc during cast, and its a lot longer in duration compared to what snowglobe does. and no im not going through 20+ pages.

Snowglobe won't melt in a second since it has 4 of invurnelability where it absorbs enemies' dmg to increase its health. Snow globe slows enemies who enter. Yes, it's not vitrify level of CC but it still good. While frost cast a globe since he is inside, he gets also 4 seconds of immortality. Sort of. And all allies inside get them too. Snow globe has no duration. It is only health based. So Frost can cast four at once and just leave without worrying about it. Gara need to keep her CD in mind. Also Frost bubble protect from EVERY SIDE. Gara doesn't protect from above. 

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I feel like these two warframe should be different, and as it currently stands they are. Frost still has a place because he can protect everyone in a nice area (If the player uses range mods as well) His kit works well with combining armor mods (If you really want to) in it. And benefits well from power strength.

 

Gara on the other hand all you really need it intensify for her 2nd ability to bring all to the table. I feel like her being wildly different then Frost in having a timer vs a health pool is welcomed. Sure it pushes enemies back, or out. And keeps them that way for a duration. But that's kind of the benefit if built right, and isn't the answer for everything. 

 

Frosts snow globe gets destroyed at higher level game play. Gara is a mild answer for that currently to help players combat against such high damage output by the enemy. (I get it higher levels more risk , sometimes more reward) But if i persons build is set around this currently, and this change does go through I would like to know if you will be refunding forma? 

 

I just feel having the 2 warframes being different is a good change, and really gives them both a sense when to play each warframe and when not to. Keeping them like on another to me is just...well not needed. The timers on her mass vitrify help me remember to recast it to refresh splinter storm. (Personal thing). 

 

Simple put I dislike the idea. Frost I am willing to break a whole snow globe just how he is played. Gara I am ok with re casting MV when the timer is running out. 

 

(Also I see this being a bit worse. Because if players have a high energy pool "Section 1 has broken down" Recast MV well everything still trying to fight to get in now runs forward... and what happens to enemies caught in MV? This could basically do the same thing. Because enemies will be frozen in place. And the new wave will be fighting to get in....again.) And this has more chance to leave particals behind if something goes wrong, and a panel is left behind, or whole sections are left behind from recasting. Not much of a drag on much, but it could get a little funky..

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1 minute ago, LEGION346 said:

 

Snowglobe won't melt in a second since it has 4 of invurnelability where it absorbs enemies' dmg to increase its health. Snow globe slows enemies who enter. Yes, it's not vitrify level of CC but it still good. While frost cast a globe since he is inside, he gets also 4 seconds immortality. Sort of. And all allies inside get them too. Snow globe has no duration. It is only health based. So Frost can cast for at once and just leave without worrying about it. Gara need to keep her CD in mind. Also Frost bubble protect from EVERY SIDE. Gara doesn't protect from above. 

neither will garas wall melt that fast, since it cant be destroyed during cast and gives actual invulnerabillity to gara, unlike frost who is still very much hittable. and vitrify cc is leagues better than what globe provides. 

gara wont have a duration either, if you didnt read the original post. and very few enemies attack from above. very, very few. and most of those are in the plains, if not all. and even in plains all you need to do is place your vitrify decently. its not really difficult. 

all these whining about some necesarry changes before we get to see actual numbers is just further proof that this community has no idea what theyre talking about making such solid statements like "this nerf is too much" etc. 

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12 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

let me know when snowglobe has the cc of vitrify. it can only compete when it has the augment. and invulnerability? unless i misread the whole changes thats simply not true. vitrify provides immunity and cc during cast, and its a lot longer in duration compared to what snowglobe does. and no im not going through 20+ pages.

After Gara nerf, players will be forced to build power strengh which is pointless now since 2 has a cap. Players will be forced to build armor and hp that are also pointless since her 2 covers survivability. Those 3 stats are pointless to rise currently and once the nerf hits live, Gara builds that are currently tight will become a mess. Mess of stats. Because of this mess many players may just say "F this" and leave Gara since getting a optimal build will be difficult. 

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il y a 19 minutes, Zeclem a dit :

let me know when snowglobe has the cc of vitrify. it can only compete when it has the augment. and invulnerability? unless i misread the whole changes thats simply not true. vitrify provides immunity and cc during cast, and its a lot longer in duration compared to what snowglobe does. and no im not going through 20+ pages.

Snowglobe is better than even current MV in every aspect if you are willing to play a certain way. Frost has options and can scale. 

You can just spam snowglobe every 3sec basicly pushing back every single enemy coming close to it while the globe is invul. and with 0 downtime since he can cast more than one snowglobe. 

And let's not forget that Frost has 3 other skills with his 4 being extremely good and doing what MV does with an armor reduction instead of the damage amp. 

So yes, even before these changes he was better than her for long runs since he can do what she does with MV with 0 downtime on his protection. Now she'll be totally useless for long runs since the health of the walls only scales with mods (hits a hard cap) unless you are planning to transform her into a damage dealer but she's not even good at that since she needs to setup, be in melee range and enemies HP will outscale her damage stacking.

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1 minute ago, SSI_Seraph said:

Snowglobe is better than event current MV in every aspect if you are willing to play a certain way. Frost has options and can scale. 

You can just spam snowglobe every 3sec basicly pushing back every single enemy coming close to it while the globe is invul. and with 0 downtime since he can cast more than one snowglobe. 

And let's not forget that Frost has 3 other skills with his 4 being extremely good and doing what MV does with an armor reduction instead of the damage amp. 

So yes, even before these changes he was better than her for long runs since he can do what she does with MV with 0 downtime on his protection. Now she'll be totally be useless for long runs since the health of the walls only scales with mods (hits a hard cap) unless you are planning to transform her into a damage dealer but she's not even good at that since she needs to setup and be in melee range and enemies HP will outscale her damage stacking.

frost was better than a frame that can give objectives(and anybody on her squad) %90 dmg reduction and shutdown entire tilesets without any health limitations and can literally kill anything she touches with how her 2 scales up in damage? 

yeah im simply gonna say no to that especially considering that "globe spam" will pretty much force your squadmates to stick to melee only. 

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