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PSA: [PC] Upcoming Changes to Gara's "Mass Vitrify" (Bonus Volt Info)


aidan890

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2 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

neither will garas wall melt that fast, since it cant be destroyed during cast and gives actual invulnerabillity to gara, unlike frost who is still very much hittable. and vitrify cc is leagues better than what globe provides

During cast. After cast then? It will go down so fast, players will be forced to recast it and waste energy. 

 

3 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

gara wont have a duration either, if you didnt read the original post. and very few enemies attack from above. very, very few. and most of those are in the plains, if not all. and even in plains all you need to do is place your vitrify decently. its not really difficult. 

Read other people posts. Even if enemies do not attack from above, they have ways to deal with a wall. Napalms and their AoE. Grenades. Nullifiers. Ancients' pulls, corrupted SPAWNS IN IT. 

 

5 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

all these whining about some necesarry changes before we get to see actual numbers is just further proof that this community has no idea what theyre talking about making such solid statements like "this nerf is too much" etc. 

No. People complain because they see this change as something bad and potentially harmful. 

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il y a 5 minutes, Zeclem a dit :

frost was better than a frame that can give objectives(and anybody on her squad) %90 dmg reduction and shutdown entire tilesets without any health limitations and can literally kill anything she touches with how her 2 scales up in damage? 

yeah im simply gonna say no to that especially considering that "globe spam" will pretty much force your squadmates to stick to melee only. 

even 99%DR won't save an objective in endurance runs, I don't think you fully realize how stupid enemy scaling is in this game

and why would they be forced into melee? they are inside the globe (they have an effective 100% DR) they can shoot and use abilities from inside towards emenies that are outside (it just doesn't work the other way around) 

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6 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

frost was better than a frame that can give objectives(and anybody on her squad) %90 dmg reduction and shutdown entire tilesets without any health limitations and can literally kill anything she touches with how her 2 scales up in damage? 

90% dmg reduction stops being useful vs enemies level 60-70+.

Not only Gara can shut down entire tilesets. Limbo, Vauban, Banshee. There is more. 

Well, after the change her 4 will be used only for scaling her 2 most likely. 

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6 minutes ago, LEGION346 said:

During cast. After cast then? It will go down so fast, players will be forced to recast it and waste energy. 

and that cast is far longer than that "immunity" provided from snowglobe. thats not an argument.

Quote

Read other people posts. Even if enemies do not attack from above, they have ways to deal with a wall. Napalms and their AoE. Grenades. Nullifiers. Ancients' pulls, corrupted SPAWNS IN IT. 

its not like snowglobe doesnt have those. 

Quote

No. People complain because they see this change as something bad and potentially harmful. 

no, people complain even before seeing the numbers cus theyre being whiny. if youre stupid to claim that "this is a super bad change" before seeing actual numbers you have 0 idea what youre talking about. which is the general reaction of this community to literally any change.

and %90 dr being useless at 60-70 is just bullcrap. and all those frames you mentioned have several backdraws. gara had none. 

6 minutes ago, SSI_Seraph said:

even 99%DR won't save an objective in endurance runs

and why would they be forced into melee? 

since when endurance runs were in any way shape or form, relevant to balance discussions? absolutely never.

cus you cant shoot inside a bubble from outside? and by your plan there will be bubbles everywhere.

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1 minute ago, Zeclem said:

people complain even before seeing the numbers cus theyre being whiny. if youre stupid to claim that "this is a super bad change" before seeing actual numbers you have 0 idea what youre talking about. which is the general reaction of this community to literally any change.

 Are you joking? 

 

The point of them posting stuff like this is so people can talk about it before anything is rolled out period. That is what a forum is for. And you putting someone down because they are voicing what they think could be possible bad. Really? You are taking it to a whole new level instead of actually just talking about how you think this change will be good or bad. And that is just outrageous and rather un needed. 

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il y a 1 minute, Zeclem a dit :

and that cast is far longer than that "immunity" provided from snowglobe. thats not an argument.

its not like snowglobe doesnt have those. 

no, people complain even before seeing the numbers cus theyre being whiny. if youre stupid to claim that "this is a super bad change" before seeing actual numbers you have 0 idea what youre talking about. which is the general reaction of this community to literally any change.

since when endurance runs were in any way shape or form, relevant to balance discussions? absolutely never.

cus you cant shoot inside a bubble from outside? and by your plan there will be bubbles everywhere.

Endurance runs are relevant here because this change will basicly only hurt that since you can rest assured they will give her walls enough health for survive sortie 3 to avoid complains

I only brought them up since you said she was better than frost, which is clearly wrong. 

and no my plan is not to cover the map with globes but to refresh your only globe around the pod every 3sec basicly keeping it invul. since it has a 4sec invul. timer. That's how you defend an objective past a certain level with Frost. 

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So it is a worse version of Snow Globe:

Affected by duration:

Has HP

No stacking

No invulnerability 

 

It's an ultimate, it costs 100 energy, you guys are irresponsibly nerfing a character without any tradeoff, not even a simple casting animation speed buff.

 

It will just be like Nazha and his poor-man's Iron Skin, force the use of mods on a character that isn't even taking advantage of them outside the ability itself, sorry guys this is plain mediocre design, basically no design at all, not even thinking about it.

 

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1 minute ago, Zeclem said:

and that cast is far longer than that "immunity" provided from snowglobe. thats not an argument.

If you keep casting it. Remeber that Gara's MV is her Ult and costs more. Frost bubble is his 3. Cost efficiency goes to frost. 

 

3 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

its not like snowglobe doesnt have those. 

Agree that enemies can also deal with globe but in terms of from which side enemy decides to deal with that goes clearly to globe in globe vs MV scenario. 

 

6 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

no, people complain even before seeing the numbers cus theyre being whiny. if youre stupid to claim that "this is a super bad change" before seeing actual numbers you have 0 idea what youre talking about. which is the general reaction of this community to literally any change.

Why so angry and why call me stupid? Why so personally? If I am stupid, so are people who posted their opinion in one of those 26 pages. Numbers needs to be huge to not mess everything and DE is not known for giving huge numbers in their first changes. 

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6 minutes ago, SSI_Seraph said:

Endurance runs are relevant here because this change will basicly only hurt that since you can rest assured they will give her walls enough health for survive sortie 3 to avoid complains

I only brought them up since you said she was better than frost, which is clearly wrong. 

and no my plan is not to cover the map with globes but to refresh your only globe around the pod every 3sec basicly keeping it invul. since it has a 4sec invul. timer. That's how you defend an objective past a certain level with Frost. 

endurance runs are never relevant, period. they absolutely never were. 

7 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Onawa Nootau said:

 Are you joking? 

no im quite serious.

Quote

The point of them posting stuff like this is so people can talk about it before anything is rolled out period. That is what a forum is for. And you putting someone down because they are voicing what they think could be possible bad. Really? You are taking it to a whole new level instead of actually just talking about how you think this change will be good or bad. And that is just outrageous and rather un needed. 

i understand and see what those who say "i wont make my final decision yet but these changes look bad". these guys are voicing concerns yes. and im not putting those people down at all.

but if you look at those replies people are all up in arms claiming that these changes are the worst and theres no way that gara will be useful or good after these changes before seeing numbers. some even didnt read the first post completely that they think gara's ult will still have a duration. if you arent even doing that and make such an outrageus claim that gara will be totally useless after these changes, yes. you didnt study your lesson, and i expect people to study their lesson if they want to have an actual discussion.

@LEGION346im not attacking you, im attacking your idea of these changes destroying gara. this isnt about you. dont try to make it about yourself.

1-energy efficiency goes to frost....unless you are using pads which is not very hard to do.

2-vitrify only misses the above, which, as i've said, very very few enemies utilize. its no big deal.

3-numbers dont need to be huge. and people also massively complained after trin got nerfed to not make her entire team basically immortals. she still have massive dr, she is still a very powerful tank and she still has one of the most broken abilities in game, named EV(not cus it gives energy, it also deals finisher damage which has basically endless scaling and can onehit any enemy when paired with a sonar banshee). 

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On 12/5/2017 at 8:18 AM, --Q--Voltage said:

1) After these changes, neither can Gara. Enemies will just walk through if you play anything higher than Sedna. xD

2) Just because the area is big, doesn't make it useful. This thing will die within a few hits past sorties. Excavation will go back to Limbo, and Defense will go back to Frost.

3) Why petrify the boss if they are dead?

 

1. Even just a few seconds of blocking is better than nothing at all like Frost does. Also, depending on your aggro capabilities you can limit enemies attempting to shoot at the wall, like how people already do it for Frost. 

2. The larger area is useful not for defensive purposes, but for crowd control: the ability to freeze entire groups of enemies and weaken them to attack. 

3. That's just like asking "why crowd-control something if it's dead"? Sometimes you want to prevent bosses from moving around too much so you can shoot them. My own experience against Alad V and Zanuka in a sortie a couple of days ago is an example: I usually have problems with solo Assassination Sorties involving those two, and yet with Gara I just froze them with Mass Vitrify, then shot them in the face while they're frozen. Took me less than 30 seconds to deal with them (including the time it took for Mass Vitrify to cast). 

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il y a 7 minutes, Zeclem a dit :

endurance runs are never relevant, period. they absolutely never were. 

no im quite serious.

i understand and see what those who say "i wont make my final decision yet but these changes look bad". these guys are voicing concerns yes. and im not putting those people down at all.

but if you look at those replies people are all up in arms claiming that these changes are the worst and theres no way that gara will be useful or good after these changes before seeing numbers. some even didnt read the first post completely that they think gara's ult will still have a duration. if you arent even doing that and make such an outrageus claim that gara will be totally useless after these changes, yes. you didnt study your lesson, and i expect people to study their lesson if they want to have an actual discussion.

Did you even read what I typed. 

This change will do jack S#&$ for the ones that compalining "op, broken" since she will still do what she does rn at sortie level. 

They just made her totally useless past that. 

and no they are relevant. People actually enjoy that super hard content instead of killing trash mobs for the xxxxth mission. If they removed every ability scaling from the game you can bet all their competitive clans would quit. 

and on top of that, to prove you wrong. Just look at the lastest releases and reworks. See the common point? SCALING.

Where does scaling matter? long runs. 

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43 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

let me know when snowglobe has the cc of vitrify. it can only compete when it has the augment. and invulnerability? unless i misread the whole changes thats simply not true. vitrify provides immunity and cc during cast, and its a lot longer in duration compared to what snowglobe does. and no im not going through 20+ pages.

Recasting snowglobe throws all enemies outside of its AoE. Always chills. Can be augmented to freeze 50% of the time.

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5 hours ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

Hi there!

Quite frankly: unless the wall's sections have a huge (and I mean HUGE) base health and benefit immensly from the mods mentioned I have my serious doubts it will be a worthwhile ability beyond the starchart anymore. If you are currently considering numbers evolving around Frost's Ice Globe and just to add them to the wall instead, I recommend to take Frost, going into a sortie and trying to defend anything with an >unstacked< globe, because that's what I have the impression, is Gara getting here - an unstackable globe as her area defense tool (not to mention casting time and more costly than a single globe). I also don't want to go too deep into it, but I also am concerned about how one is supposed to mod her after these changes and fear another Vauban situation. Meaning she might end up needing too many stats, unachievable, to play her smoothly. I mean, are we supposed to put Streamline, Fleeting Expertise, Vitality, Steel Fiber, Intensify, several duration mods and several range mods into 8 slots (and that's just to make her "work" after the change) or are we expected to play her like Trinity only using one or two abilities? That would be a shame. Speaking of which her 3 is already pretty bad due to the mirrors having essentially no health and no scaling when reflecting damage. I recommend again to take this ability into the sorties and watch it evaporate in mere seconds.

I think more subtle ideas regarding the wall would have been changes such as:

- Making her wall slowly "shrink" back when taking damage. That would actually be dynamic and change the battle circumstances without forcing her immediatly to recast her 4 once a single section brakes.

- Letting enemies walk (but not shoot) through the finished wall, while still getting a (maybe slower version of) the vitrification applied to them

- Keep the sections idea, but let the wall stack by casting it and adding additional health when the new liquid glass goes over the existing one, also repairing broken sections.. If sections break under enemy fire, they deal damage/stun/blind/ragdoll. Heavily reduced energy costs and casting time would be needed for that. It still would lock her down - not dynamic.

That are just a few random ideas an idiot like me came up with while typing of course and what do I know? Certainly nothing about programming nor game design - that's for sure -, but I played this game quite a bit and can tell you that there should be a less damning solution than demoting Gara to a "starchart-onlyuse2-frame", because her 2 might end up to be her only >strong< ability after she goes the direction you want to take her. 1, decent, but nothing crazy. 2, strong. 3, sorry to be that blunt, but trash. 4, I guess we'll see.

Thanks for your effort and time.

^ All of this.

I was thinking the same thing. Without the ability to stack casts, it would need to have an immense default health. 

Really, I would hope that fixing Spectrorage could help make it manageable by having an invulnerable, reliable diversion for the enemies to focus on rather than the wall. 

I actually love the idea of keeping Mass Vitrify invulnerable but have it shrink based on damage received, but with a cap to how much it can shrink in a given time frame. It would be a much more effective scaling, and balancing and still give her a very unique feel compared to other defense frames. At the moment, with her changes it just's going to feel like a less effective Frost.

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4 hours ago, LEGION346 said:

If enemies have problem with a wall, why not GIVE ENEMIES way to counter it? Grinner AI is more likely to use grenades. Infested jump over it. Corpus uses more grenades too. Corrupted are fine. These things were mention on top of other valid and good arguments why Gara's MV shouldn't be nerfed like that. 

Totally agree with that, they could make enemies slightly smarter, but I guess it's 2000 times cheaper to tweak numbers than designing an AI.

Also the problem is not the wall being breakable itself, but how carelessly they decided to implement everything, you just can't base an ability on a mod that the Warframe itself takes little to no advantage from, it's lazy and it makes no sense, and forces people to not customize properly because the mod is mandatory in order for the skill to not be useless.

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Just now, Akimbo said:

Recasting snowglobe throws all enemies outside of its AoE. Always chills. Can be augmented to freeze 50% of the time.

and its still not on par with vitrify. vitrify isnt based on rng with the augment and has a far better range.

1 minute ago, SSI_Seraph said:

Did you even read what I typed. 

This change will do jack S#&amp;&#036; for the ones that compalining "op, broken" since she will still do what she does rn at sortie level. 

They just made her totally useless past that. 

and no they are relevant. People actually enjoy that super hard content instead of killing trash mobs for the xxxxth mission. If they removed every ability scaling from the game you can bet all their competitive clans would quit. 

and on top of that, to prove you wrong. Just look at the lastest releases and and reworks. See the common point? SCALING.

Where does scaling matter? long runs. 

i did read it, and im saying it for the last time.

endurance runs do NOT matter for theres absolutely ZERO reason to do them. yes. ZERO. and if you werent paying attention de did never balance around those content. or they do and suck at it since like %90 of the frames we have are simply worthless to have in an endless run.

and scaling matters in sorties/missions around lvl 100-150 too. a non scaling weapon wont be really all that great there. but guess what? those can easily spawn when out of endurance runs simple because theyre not relevant. at all. competitive clans are also very much a small minority in this game. 

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il y a 3 minutes, Zeclem a dit :

and its still not on par with vitrify. vitrify isnt based on rng with the augment and has a far better range.

i did read it, and im saying it for the last time.

endurance runs do NOT matter for theres absolutely ZERO reason to do them. yes. ZERO. and if you werent paying attention de did never balance around those content. or they do and suck at it since like %90 of the frames we have are simply worthless to have in an endless run.

and scaling matters in sorties/missions around lvl 100-150 too. a non scaling weapon wont be really all that great there. but guess what? those can easily spawn when out of endurance runs simple because theyre not relevant. at all. competitive clans are also very much a small minority in this game. 

Assuming it doesn't matter like you said ( and it does or why would they bother giving the new releases scaling when you can still obliterate everything in sortie level with weapons and High base damage frames)

this change does nothing. She will still lock the map. All it does is make her useless past a certain threshhold. 

On top of that they compalined about locking maps when other frames can do just the same. Frost doing Exactly what she does better even pre change if you play a certain way. 

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30 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

neither will garas wall melt that fast, since it cant be destroyed during cast and gives actual invulnerabillity to gara, unlike frost who is still very much hittable. and vitrify cc is leagues better than what globe provides. 

gara wont have a duration either, if you didnt read the original post. and very few enemies attack from above. very, very few. and most of those are in the plains, if not all. and even in plains all you need to do is place your vitrify decently. its not really difficult. 

all these whining about some necesarry changes before we get to see actual numbers is just further proof that this community has no idea what theyre talking about making such solid statements like "this nerf is too much" etc. 

1) Gara is only invulnerable while the wall is expanding. Once it has solidified she is no longer invulnerable.

2) Frost has amazing CC with globe. Just recast the ability and throw everything outside if it managed to get in.

3) Gara's was confirmed to still have duration. Read the responses from the devs please.

4) Many enemies can circumvent the wall. Even if it's just by glitching their guns through it.

5) Most of us I think know that there should probably be some changes. However most of us can also see that this is a massive over-nerf of an ultimate ability because it was "better" than Frost's #3 ability.

6) Most of us also know what Gara won't be revisited after this nerf and will remain in this much-weakened state for years before being looked at again. Why over-nerf a new frame when there's no requirement to?

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I am one of those people who do only endless runs and enjoy them the most because I like challenge. Same with my friends. 2 hours or more of intense fights versus hordes of the enemies. I hate doing normal missions because how trivial the enemies are there. 

Even if enemies scaling is a problem, the way we currently have to stop their ridiculous scaling are fine. One of them is MV. Most of the time I find myself casting it either to block an entrance so enemies cant go through to get sme breathing room or to create small safe zone to revive my pet or an ally. 

MV at low normal levels will be fine. Higher levels and it may be worth nothing. Only to increase 2 dmg as already mentioned somewhere above. 

Yes. We don't have numbers yet, but we know that Gara will need POWER, ARMOR AND HEALTH to increase wall survivability. All those 3 stats are worthless on Gara. 

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à l’instant, LEGION346 a dit :

I am one of those people who do only endless runs and enjoy them the most because I like challenge. Same with my friends. 2 hours or more of intense fights versus hordes of the enemies. I hate doing normal missions because how trivial the enemies are there. 

Even if enemies scaling is a problem, the way we currently have to stop their ridiculous scaling are fine. One of them is MV. Most of the time I find myself casting it either to block an entrance so enemies cant go through to get sme breathing room or to create small safe zone to revive my pet or an ally. 

MV at low normal levels will be fine. Higher levels and it may be worth nothing. Only to increase 2 dmg as already mentioned somewhere above. 

Yes. We don't have numbers yet, but we know that Gara will need POWER, ARMOR AND HEALTH to increase wall survivability. All those 3 stats are worthless on Gara. 

Same here and probably more than one or two in the same case. This is just locking us from having fun in what we enjoy because someone thinks it was so good it's broken when the same thing was in the game for ages and no one complained about it. Gotta complain about the new shiney tho. 

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9 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

and its still not on par with vitrify. vitrify isnt based on rng with the augment and has a far better range.

They shouldn't be "on par". One is a frame's defining, ultimate ability. One is a frame's 3rd ability, that's always and still is really good. Frosts globe isn't based on rng, except the Aug. Seriously, just go max range and press 3 a few times. Enemy inside? Press 3. Globe damaged? Press 3. Globe taking heavy fire? Press 3.

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5 minutes ago, Aliant_PL said:

So now Mass Vitrify will be like SnowGlobe but worse? I would like to find out where the uniqueness of different frames went.

EXACTLY! Each frame is different for a reason. Sure some have roughly the same move, but improved in some way, or slightly less in some way. number or no numbers it should matter. 3rd ability vs ultimate ability..... the ultimate ability should be stronger in more ways that's why it's an ultimate ability. 

 

Building armor and power strength helps frost with avalance, and snow globe. (You can even toss in both augments if you can find a good balance) He will benefit.

 

Gara won't, and it will hurt her turning her into a 1 trick pony instead of using roughly the whole kit (Minus 3.... 3 is bad...)

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2 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Besides, making Mass Vitrify health-based with damage on destruction would make it redundant next to Spectrorage.

Well, that's only true if Spectrorage actually gets buffed into being even vaguely relevant. 

Currently, it's not. It's lure radius and awfully weak health make it redundant to Mass Vitrify at best (that is, Spectrorage is an inferior version ofMass Vitrify, and not the other way around) , and useless at worst. 

Frankly, I think Spectrorage ought to have its lure radius and general health increased by a lot, in order to differentiate and maybe even synergize with Mass Vitrify. If Mass Vitrify serves as a prison, Spectrorage would exist so you can move enemies to where you want to imprison them. 

 

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il y a 10 minutes, Akimbo a dit :

3) Gara's was confirmed to still have duration. Read the responses from the devs please.

no :

Le 04/12/2017 à 19:53, [DE]Aidan a dit :

First, the ability will no longer be affected by Duration. Its longevity will be determined solely by its health, or whether or not the player decides to break it with Shattered Lash.

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