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PSA: [PC] Upcoming Changes to Gara's "Mass Vitrify" (Bonus Volt Info)


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1 hour ago, Jazar-Khajiit said:

Also, she needs a buff for her 3, more range and damage. Her 3 deserves a buff, right now it works like a Loki's decoy. When you cast your 2 nearby your allies they should get a buff.

If you want to nerf her. Just reduce her ability duration.

I really agree on both points. Her 3 is kinda... meh. Mostly because the enemies take stupidly long to actually shoot a mirror, but even if they do shoot one the damage is kinda meh. I always felt her 4 was up too long compared to splinterstorm. I don't know her to fix her synergy on her 2 or 3 when cast on enemies, but it kinda needs to happen. I feel like she needs to be able to target multiple enemies at once, or better still, have some way to spread her 2 to enemies. Like if an enemy affected by splinter storm destroys a mirror, the splinter storm gets spread to all in its charm radius, or that are inside it.

I don't think her 2 needs to give allies a buff (it already does), but if you meant your 3... that could be interesting. Like increased accuracy for a while, or something.

And I'm sorry for posting so much... it may be a bit excessive in hindisght (massive understatement). It's just that she's been my main ever since I got her, and I had a lot to say about her. Mainly about her broken splinter storm damage when cast on herself, but now also because of a nerf to an area in which she didn't need one. I've been hoping to get news about a nerf to her 2 for days so I could finally try out some rage based builds and similar, basically anything melee or tank based, but instead I get... whatever this atrocity is. :sad:

Well, before I leave, I might as well give some math as to why I hate her 2 so much for people who have never seen it in action or played her using it:

every time you cast your 1 on your wall when outside it while splinterstorm is active you add half the damage your 1 does to your splinter storm damage. Your splinter storm does that damage per second then. With a properly modded melee using maximum possible damage, and an assumed 30% power strength (which you need to treach 90% damage reduction), you get the following figures:

  • 600*1.3 heat damage
  • 800 * 1.3 * 2.65 puncture or slash damage, which can actually be further increased by ips mods
  • 800 * 1.3 * 2.65 * 5.35 elemental damage.
  • The total is then  18280.6 damage per second extra every time you increase the damage on your splinterstorm.
  • WIth rivens this can increase tremendously, when using any high riven disposition weapon, as high as 40490 extra damage per second when using the amphis. If you were to truly maximize that, it would become 70782 at the absolute most when using a puncture modifier on your riven and using a puncture/slash modifier on your riven and the augur strike + sundering strike. It could go even higher against specific factions, with 156233 damage per second added to your splinter storm every time you cast it.
  • Since splinter storm can also be cast and maintained at the same time as splinter storm on yourself, the actual absolute highest damage per second increase possible per cast is 312465.
  • It is stupidly easy to cast the damage increase. You can do it about 10 times per minute, perhaps higher if you optimise it. After those ten casts, you'd do 3124977 damage per second. Sorry let me make that easier to read. That is 3 million 124 thousand 977 damage per second to any target within a certain radius of you, on my build about 1.5 meters. It's definitely not broken at all...
  • The reason why I didn't bother increasing that number further is because doing so would like see my duration, efficiency or surviability decrease somewhat, and I kinda like having all of those on gara. But if you really, truly wanted to maximise her ability strength, you'd be doing a lot more than that.

Now, while taking the numbers I just showed into account, how is this change to her wall needed? It almost seems completely harmless in comparison.

Edit: after reading it over it seems you have good intentions but are somewhat out of touch with the players/game. Currently, any form of health is completely useless already in the void mobile defense mission, let alone sorties. Frost can somewhat manage in high level defense because of his recast and relatively high energy availability, but gara would now have no such thing. Her walls would break instantly, making her completely useless in that regard. Also see my above statement for the areas in which she actually does need a rework. Her 3 in general or her 2 when used on enemies are sub par even for most sub par abilities, and really is a lot of missed potential.

Edited by FunnyBunny3141
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6 hours ago, Akimbo said:

1) Gara is only invulnerable while the wall is expanding. Once it has solidified she is no longer invulnerable.

that cast time is longer than globes immunity. i think ive said it like a million times now i believe.

6 hours ago, Akimbo said:

2) Frost has amazing CC with globe. Just recast the ability and throw everything outside if it managed to get in.

that will either limit your team to one small space or you'll inhibit your teams ability to shoot as they wish.

6 hours ago, Akimbo said:

3) Gara's was confirmed to still have duration. Read the responses from the devs please.

where did they confirmed it? after they edited the main post here that said that gara wont have a duration on her ult? pls do show.

6 hours ago, Akimbo said:

4) Many enemies can circumvent the wall. Even if it's just by glitching their guns through it.

same goes for frost's snowglobe.

6 hours ago, Akimbo said:

5) Most of us I think know that there should probably be some changes. However most of us can also see that this is a massive over-nerf of an ultimate ability because it was "better" than Frost's #3 ability.

the word "ultimate" ability doesnt always mean its the absolute best ability for that frame. there are a lot of examples to that. mirage, volt, chroma, mag, saryn..... the list goes on.

6 hours ago, Akimbo said:

6) Most of us also know what Gara won't be revisited after this nerf and will remain in this much-weakened state for years before being looked at again. Why over-nerf a new frame when there's no requirement to?

"much weakened state" yeah yeah they said the same about so many frames. like trin. like saryn. like post rework oberon. all claimed to be not good enough after their nerfs/reworks and look where they are.

6 hours ago, SSI_Seraph said:

Assuming it doesn't matter like you said ( and it does or why would they bother giving the new releases scaling when you can still obliterate everything in sortie level with weapons and High base damage frames)

this change does nothing. She will still lock the map. All it does is make her useless past a certain threshhold. 

On top of that they compalined about locking maps when other frames can do just the same. Frost doing Exactly what she does better even pre change if you play a certain way. 

no other frame had close to no backdraws like gara did when locking the map.

6 hours ago, Akimbo said:

They shouldn't be "on par". One is a frame's defining, ultimate ability. One is a frame's 3rd ability, that's always and still is really good. Frosts globe isn't based on rng, except the Aug. Seriously, just go max range and press 3 a few times. Enemy inside? Press 3. Globe damaged? Press 3. Globe taking heavy fire? Press 3.

the word "ultimate" ability doesnt always mean its the absolute best ability for that frame. there are a lot of examples to that. mirage, volt, chroma, mag, saryn..... the list goes on.

6 hours ago, Messkoo said:

Immunity for you alone, your allies and objectives are not protected during cast. And vitrify take time to stop enemies, they can still shoot you once or 2 when you stop casting, at lvls that dont matter at all, it's death.

MF need change, but this change is not the good one for me. (for me a total change, not a wall)

maybe it will be good. maybe it wont. i rather see the numbers first before making a final conclusion for myself on gara.

not like anybody would care about that but yeah.

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50 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

post rework oberon

If I remember correctly Oberon after rework was unable to kill lvl 1 gunner? He got buffed after it because Brozime had balls to tell DE right into their face they F up.

 

50 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

the word "ultimate" ability doesnt always mean its the absolute best ability for that frame. there are a lot of examples to that. mirage, volt, chroma, mag, saryn..... the list goes on.

These are old frames who NEEDS MORE ATTENTION THAN GARA. Volt at least now will be able to do much more with ult changes. Why you listed Mag here I don't know. She is walking nerf meme. 

 

50 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

no other frame had close to no backdraws like gara did when locking the map

She still has drawbacks. If DE thinks that her wall is too good, why not buff enemies to make them smarter as proposed many times in this thread? Remember that Gara MV was BUFFED after her release because DE thought it was weak? Why nerf it now? Why not revert the buff. MV without buff will be much better than proposed by DE change. 

 

50 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

that will either limit your team to one small space or you'll inhibit your teams ability to shoot as they wish.

That's why you build range on Frost. And range on him makes much more sense than on Gara. Too big MV and enemies will sometimes glitch and ignore it completely. You don't have that problems with Frost bubble. 

 

50 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

that cast time is longer than globes immunity. i think ive said it like a million times now i believe.

Yes. You are right. But the cast time of MV also is bound to typical cost of an ultimate. After the DE proposed change to MV, good luck fitting efficiency when you will need HP, armor, duration, power and range too. Making Gara builds will be so fun.  

Edited by LEGION346
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On ‎12‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 12:53 PM, [DE]Aidan said:

Hey Tenno,

Just wanted to drop in here and give a little update on some upcoming changes to Gara’s fourth ability: Mass Vitrify. Coming in the next update, this ability will no longer be invulnerable to damage. It will eventually break apart in sections when enough damage has been dealt to that specific section of the glass wall.

The wall’s health is determined by both your ability power strength and armor mods, just like Frost’s Snow Globe. This will give your enemies a few extra options for dealing with Mass Vitrify, leading to some more dynamic encounters when using the wall defensively. 

Please use this thread to discuss any questions or feedback. 

Thanks, Tenno!

EDIT:

After conveying some of the most common points of feedback from this post to the design team we have some adjustments to our changes to Gara’s Mass Vitrify! 

First, the ability will no longer be affected by Duration. Its longevity will be determined solely by its health, or whether or not the player decides to break it with Shattered Lash. We are also reviewing the wall health values incase further changes are needed. Second, when each section of the wall breaks, it will deal AoE damage that will scale with ability Strength Mods

As always, we want our community to remain engaged in the way we make adjustments to our Warframes, especially once they actually get their hands on them. In Gara’s case we just didn’t feel it was appropriate to her kit to be able to lock down some maps indefinitely or otherwise. Power design is a reciprocal process and we simply can’t account for every possible combination of mods, situational use, and play styles in our designs, that is why we are so fortunate to have a dedicated and cooperative community to offer feedback to collaborate with. Once these changes go live, have at ‘em and bring us your thoughts. 

Bonus Info: We also have some exciting adjustments to our recent Volt changes. As you may recall, we were still actively reviewing the Damage aspect since the day we made the change (Prime Time with Steve explained this!)We have decided to remove the damage cap and raise the damage per second of Discharge, improve its synergy with Shock and we are also halving the energy costs of carrying around Electric Shields. Volt should now be given a bit more protected movement (albeit it with some energy cost), as well as just simply deal more damage overall! 

can you guys at least power creep the older frames to scale like the new ones with the release of umbras or something?

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I've played Gara. Out of the 4 years that i've played this game and being MR 24, even before this "nerf" , I can say that....

 

I thought Gara was pretty weak already.

 

To be precise, my thoughts are that she is actually one of the weakest warframes in the game (besides the damage reduc buff she gives herself and to other players, its actually pretty good). But  even then, our warframes have so many survability built it from itself or other players give to us or even the Teno give to the warframe that it feels pretty meh. It's also quite tedious to hunt down your team mates to give them the buff and I see myself probably just using it on myself only 90 percent of the time.

When I found out that she was invun during the channel of her 4th ability while I was lvling her, my original thought (and still now) that it was actually a good thing that DE added that due to the fact that she basically isn't doing anything and is a sitting duck while making the wall.  It could be used as a nice tool to get out of a stick situation.

After I reached level 30 with her and played with her a few rounds, I just decided I'll probably will never use her again because she's A) boring to use (just sitting there making walls or applying self reduction is pretty boring) B) Weak compared to other frames.

 

 

 

After this nerf, I'll definitely won't use Gara again. I guess the Frost mains came out crying for the nerf but whatever.

 

 Though to be fair, like I stated earlier I wasn't even going to use her in the first place even if this nerf never happened. So I guess in the end it doesn't matter to my gameplay.

 

 

Edited by TheFinalEpic
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Ok DE, this is 31 pages of (mostly) negative responses to this planned change for Gara, and as the patch is not out yet, please bear with me, I would like to explain my thoughts in another manner. 

 

The Planes of Eidolon has been tremendously fun so far - its not without its flaws, but it is very well done indeed.   I do have a thought or so on the decision to release Gara as the premier Warframe that battled there.   This region is huge, uneven, and has one of the first major air threats in Warframe, ships warp out of nowhere, Grineer fly around and shoot at us, etc - and Gara, the Unbreakable Warrior, whose defensive capabilities are legendary.... doesn't cover threats from the air.   Add to this, the fact that the walls don't follow terrain, and PoE has the most uneven terrain in the game, which makes it useless in pretty much any scenario where ground isn't level. 

You have given us a fork to try to eat soup.   To expand on this analogy - you have given us a masterfully worked bowl of soup - it has potatoes, it has rice, it has vegetables, it has a bit of everything! The only problem is that dang fork you've given us - its potent enough, sure, and we can eat most of the soup with it... and it turns out, most of us like using the fork! Its far from perfect, but it works well enough - we come to love the fork. 

What you are doing to our beloved fork, however... is simply snipping off its 4th tine - the third was already pretty weak, and the second... well, it turns out that it has a thermonuclear bomb strapped to it - this tine will stab ANYthing to death easily, the scaling is infinite, and its actually quite easy to use.  The problem here? We don't need a friggin nuke, we need a SPOON, and you are nerfing the 4th tine, the cornerstone of this fork into nothing.  The third tine is useless, the first tine... well, without the third, fourth, and with the inevitable removal of the second, we now have a stick.  We have soup to eat here, what use is this stick? I don't want to get used to using the nuke you've strapped to it for some reason, we know it'll be taken away sooner or later... so we're left with a problem - how do we eat our soup? 

 

Of 35 pieces of silverware (counting Khora's impending release), we have ONE spoon, and that spoon is named Frost.  Frost was ALREADY a spoon, Gara was supposed to be a competing spoon, but no, we get a fork - but we've made do, we love our fork, the fork is awesome! Please do not fork our fork.  Perhaps strip the freaking thermonuclear bomb off the 2nd tine, and leave the 4th intact.  If this nerf goes through, all we will have is a broken stick to be shoved in the drawer with all the other broken sticks such as Zephyr, Atlas, etc. 

 

Oh, and thanks for trying to fix our Volt flashlight, replacing the potato powering his 4 with an actual battery is appreciated. 

Edited by Emberglow3412
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This usually stems from someone abusing it, or a lot of people complaining about it.  The frame itself is very fun, and doesn't seem over powered to me.  But whenever I mod a frame right, people will complain to me in game about how over powered my frame is, no matter what the frame.  Gara is the only frame I've been playing, sucks to see this.  I guess one might consider what the community will complain about when brain storming for new frames.

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On 12/5/2017 at 2:51 AM, (Xbox One)FISTO ROBOT0 said:

Lol right? Limbo is literally unkillable and can just freeze the rift and then spam his ult as he pleases to make sure he's always safe and only fighting enemies when they can't move. But a glass wall is too much ;)

Not to mention, King of The Rift gets his energy restored while doing this. Lel.

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5 hours ago, Ragemonstar said:

This change is ridiculous, DE, I am so tired of you destroying frames that scale well with difficulty and are useful for high level challenges, just because it makes already easy low level missions even easier. 

Well, the ability is undeniably overpowered. It's an improved, invincible version of Frost's snow globe whose only weakness is bugs - which, by definition, shouldn't be in game. The ability needs retuning. 

But it does so as much as Spectrorage needs a buff. 

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I'd kindly like to remind everyone in the comments here of one thing:

A frame is more than the pure sum of their powers. 

Just because a power is great doesn't mean that justifies a terrible one - and just because a power is useless doesn't mean it's ok for the frame to have an overpowered power. 

So before contesting the changes to Mass Vitrify, consider the possibility that the fact she'll allegedly become "useless" after one power change means that the rest of her kit (or part of it) was itself sub-par enough to need to be carried by an indisputably overpowered ability. 

That is: instead of demanding Mass Vitrify to stay as OP as is, demand for the useless thing that is Spectrorage to become useful. 

Geez. DE barely listens to us, no doubt. Much less than they should, no doubt. But it's hard to judge them when the vast amount of feedback is brainless and downright stupid demands of untapped, unbalanced amounts of power, fully moded with several Rank 10 Narrow Minded mods. 

Edited by tnccs215
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Some suggestions that could make the nerf not so bad
 
1-give it hp based on ability strength and armor (but also add energy spent to the ecuation: the more energy spent the stronger it gets so at max efficiency gara has a weaker wall than a non efficiency gara)

2-make it move together with gara (optional) this would make it too OP again

3- give gara the ability to channel it and while channeling 4 the walls repair taking more and more energy the more dmg they repair/take (so at some point it would be worth more to recast it rather than repair it)

button mechanics: press 4 to activate, press 4 again to deactivate, press and hold 4 to activate heal channel after wall has already been activated (program the wall deactivation on key release so if 4 is pressed after it has already been activated but it's only pressed for less than 1 second then it will deactivate the ability(if it lasts more than 1 second in pressed position healing channel starts and lasts till the 4 key is released)) some sugestions that could make the nerf not so bad

 
 
Edited by Ryk_Rengan
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15 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

I'd kindly like to remind everyone in the comments here of one thing:

A frame is more than the pure sum of their powers. 

Just because a power is great doesn't mean that justifies a terrible one - and just because a power is useless doesn't mean it's ok for the frame to have an overpowered power. 

So before contesting the changes to Mass Vitrify, consider the possibility that the fact she'll allegedly become "useless" after one power change means that the rest of her kit (or part of it) was itself sub-par enough to need to be carried by an indisputably overpowered ability. 

That is: instead of demanding Mass Vitrify to stay as OP as is, demand for the useless thing that is Spectrorage to become useful. 

Geez. DE barely listens to us, no doubt. Much less than they should, no doubt. But it's hard to judge them when the vast amount of feedback is brainless and downright stupid demands of untapped, unbalanced amounts of power. 

 

It is not difficult to predict builds based on the information given. 

 

This will make her completely useless for my purposes, and that of many expressing similar sentiments here (mostly high end content barriers) - for anything lower then what i used her for, there are better frames. For anything I could use her 4 in, Frost is outright better in all regards except for buffing DR, which if i'm doing that, I'll be taking Trinity.

Her 4 will will scale with power strength, armor and HP... armor and HP are useless for Gara herself thanks to her 2, so you either build armor / hp for her 4 (and only her 4) or you waste stats. Her synergy will be abysmal. For her 1 to be good, you need a stat stick... I'd rather expend that effort making a good melee weapon than buffing another energy consumer for similar damage. Duration will no longer help her 4, only her 2, so... you're stuck building for individual skills or wasting large amounts of mod capacity.   Her synergy will be the worst that I can think of offhand, counting the useless hp / armor you'll have to build to make her 4 better.

 

Frost is outright superior for all things that require 'I want a barrier here' - her 2 is inferior to Trinity's kit, her 1 isn't worth it, and her 3 blows.  She will be a good frame in that Zephyr has a nice damage immunity ability, but... the rest is lackluster in the extreme without the cornerstone of her 4's current functionality.  She'll be 'a frame' - not good at anything, less good then most other frames with similar capabilities.  This does not count her 2, which is exploitable to the point where you can 1 shot anything with an HP bar with enough buildup.   Thus far, Gara has been a refreshing change from the Frost-spam we've been seeing for multiple years.  Now, she'll just be a worse frost with boobs and a dress. 

Edited by Emberglow3412
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Gara has 2 good abilites.  Her 2 and 4.  If her 4 becomes based on power strength it will no longer synergize with her 2.  That WILL ruin her.  You will have to build for either her 2 or 4 or settle for mediocre everything.  And I doubt a wall that will shatter in areas will be useful in any real way.  So all she will have is her 2 which is a great ability.  BUT, then she is in a similar situation to many unused warframes that only have 1 good ability.  Atlas comes to mind.  Even if you could make the argument her 2 is amazing and better than other tank frames, most other tank frames have multiple great abilities.  Why would you use her when there are so many other options?  These changes to her 4 will ruin her if it is no longer duration based and based on strength instead.  Balancing out her build will not leave her in a great place. 

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35 minutes ago, Emberglow3412 said:

Her 2 is inferior to Trinity's kit, her 1 isn't worth it, and her 3 blows.  She will be a good frame in that Zephyr has a nice damage immunity ability, but... the rest is lackluster in the extreme without the cornerstone of her 4's current functionality.  She'll be 'a frame' - not good at anything, less good then most other frames with similar capabilities. 

That statement literally supports what I said:

47 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

So before contesting the changes to Mass Vitrify, consider the possibility that the fact she'll allegedly become "useless" after one power change means that the rest of her kit (or part of it) was itself sub-par enough to need to be carried by an indisputably overpowered ability.

That said, I agree with all your criticism to the rework. The necessary stats to each ability become so dispair as to be downright contradictory. It will loose any form of build synergy. 

But saying that in no way erases the fact that her 4 is the Hysteria of CC's: downright prevents any form of damage (or even enemy presence) in an area, regardless of level, with its only weakness being glitches - which, by design, should be removed. 

And there's a difference between being a cornerstone ability and being a carrier ability. A corner stone ability serves as the basis of the intended gameplay of a frame, and augments and is augments by a tandem usage with the other abilities. A carrier ability is an ability so overpowered and useful that not only eclipses the other powers, it also makes a frame seem good despite every (or the majority) of the rest of the powers being utterly terrible. 

Mass Vitrify is very much the second.

This isn't a black or white situation. It doesn't have to be one or the other, it can be both. Gara can be rendered sub-par by the nerfing of Mass Vitrify while Mass Vitrify deserves to be nerfed - just like a frame can deserve to be buffed in some aspects while nerfs are necessary on others. Simultaneously, the planned changes can be bad without meaning Mass Vitrify should be kept as is. 

I didnt write that comment to address legitimate criticism towards the changes. I wrote it to address all those who pretend her current state is perfectly acceptable - because it is not - and  that these changes by themselves, and not the absence of others, are the issue. 

And frankly, even this matters little. Her kit is not as sub-par as most want to paint it. Splinter Storm is not a useless ability. It can give team wide 90% reduction, including to objects. Yeah, it doesn't "surpass" Trinity, but goddamn, nothing does, and nothing should. Hell it stacks with it. If that isnt helpful, nothing is . Hell,  neither is her 1 for crying out loud.

Her only trully awful ability is her 3. Now that, needs fixing, something I've argued for since her release. But it needs it as much as her 4 needs a nerf. 

Crap's sake, if the massive glass dome protecting your team and object of interest that already has a 90% damage reduction is so "sub-par", if a frame is only not useless if it can completely and utterly nullify any threat,  in any form, at any level, with the press of a button, maybe it's you who should tone down your expectations, and not the game who should up the offer

 

Edited by tnccs215
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On 12/5/2017 at 3:55 PM, Borg1611 said:

Changing it to be health based and have no affect from duration outside how long we can spend building the wall is going to make her new builds clunky and annoying.

We liked duration on her because it was useful for multiple abilities. In the case of her 4 it both increased the duration of the wall and allowed you to make a larger wall without having to rely exclusively on range. This will mean we may end up dropping to lower duration and have to re-buff her 2 more frequently, which will make maintaining it for damage a lot more annoying and make people even less inclined to try to keep it up on her teammates, which is already extremely obnoxious. It will also mean people who were using high range builds are going to have to reconsider since you just made power strength a lot more important and overextended gives a huge hit to power strength. 

So overextended is going to screw power strength. You lowered the value of duration, yet we may end up just having to stick to high duration if you want a larger wall since going for range messes up power strength, which we need more of now since the health of our wall depends on it... If we want more power strength we have to either mess up our duration or efficiency. I mean, it feels like you're just throwing in these quick changes without fully considering the ramifications on how she's built. This will lead to her feeling even more clunky to mod. 

If you're going to do this I would once again suggest you add a long-cast to her 2 that buffs all allies in affinity range, refreshing all existing buff durations. That way it won't be as annoying trying to keep her 2 up with lower durations. It will also mean you can leave your wall up if it survives longer instead of having to constantly re-cast it just to refresh buffs. If my wall is now health based and not duration based, what's the point if I have to re-cast it more frequently than I already was because my 2 durations are now shorter and I'm having to re-cast my wall just to rebuff my 2? You have to consider the ramifications on her cross-ability synergy when you throw in these random changes. Maybe also consider reducing the energy cost of making the walls?

I would also consider dropping duration from her 3 too for consistency sake. Just make that health based as well. The ability is already weak as it is, now we're going to be dropping duration since you're gutting its value (or we'll be giving up some of it to get more strength). Maybe buff the baseline duration of her 2 as well. 

Was waiting to finish catching up on the the pages I missed in the last day or so before saying this, I’m so happy someone already has. Reminds me a lot of Volt’s and Oberon’s clunky builds. I’m not too knowledgeable about Volt’s specifics, but Oberon is my favorite frame currently and the way you have to sacrifice for him is ridiculous. Makes modding a nightmare. 

Oberon wants duration and efficiency, but with a little range to make his 4 and 2 effective. He also needs power strength so that his 3 and 4 are viable at all. Trying to mod for a frame that needs everything, but can only have a little is terrible. Nixing duration for health is a bad idea, DE. WHY would we max power strength to tank efficiency and duration? Then we have to worry about the size of our wall... and the longer we cast it the more energy we use, ya? So now we need duration and efficiency again. Come on man, you guys have to stop repeating the same mistakes. We don’t want frost 2.0, we want Gara. 

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People that keep saying Gara's 4 is broken we are just going to have to agree to completely disagree.  In a game where Frost, Limbo, Rhino, Banshee and many others exist Gara's 4 feels like it fits in well.  Either you aren't familiar with the cast of frames or aren't far enough into the game to build them to their max potential.  Her wall does prevent enemies from moving into an area and bullets.  AOE seems to get through it from what I can see and when you recast it enemies can walk right through.  Corpus have literally no trouble getting through her wall.  At least in the plains Grineer can jump over it.  I think all you need to do is give Grineer some kind of ability to break it(not based on damage/health) similar to nulifiers and let some infested climb it.  Fixed in most situations.  In tight areas let it be what it is.  Volt can do that in tight areas as well as Vauban.  If her wall is able to be shattered it will be useless.  It is not recastable like Frost globe to stack.

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Le 04/12/2017 à 13:53, [DE]Aidan a dit :

First, the ability will no longer be affected by Duration. Its longevity will be determined solely by its health, or whether or not the player decides to break it with Shattered Lash. We are also reviewing the wall health values incase further changes are needed. Second, when each section of the wall breaks, it will deal AoE damage that will scale with ability Strength Mods

No duration, just Hp, So we will still have to focus on either Duration (for her 2) and Strenght (MV) instead of both. We will either be tanks that can give high damage reduction (with a cap reachable with barely 130% Strenght) to allies for a minute (and more) or a Frost with nothing else than a Wall and weak offensive abilities (and a short dam. red. that doesn't require all the Power Strenght we are using to make the Wall usefull).

Le 04/12/2017 à 13:53, [DE]Aidan a dit :

As always, we want our community to remain engaged in the way we make adjustments to our Warframes, especially once they actually get their hands on them. In Gara’s case we just didn’t feel it was appropriate to her kit to be able to lock down some maps indefinitely or otherwise. Power design is a reciprocal process and we simply can’t account for every possible combination of mods, situational use, and play styles in our designs, that is why we are so fortunate to have a dedicated and cooperative community to offer feedback to collaborate with. Once these changes go live, have at ‘em and bring us your thoughts. 

We have frames with devastating powers that can kill the enemies even before they reach the wall, and you still nerf the wall instead. Why not Banshee's annoying Quake (and the absurd Augment), Nova's MP or WoF that only Ember users don't find boring? Yes, we are the players, we give feedback, you're fortunate to have us and bla bla bla, but we're not the only ones who should care of how people play your game. Many Warfames have insane abilities and most abilities of most frames are either unsused or simply bad to the extreme (Mag's Crush for example), yet you nerf the good aspects of the newest frame without doing anything about the crappy half of her kit.

How can a game work if the Devs don't take in consideration how the players play (referring to the underlined part)? Spammers, AFKs, Trolls and more, those are problematic players, and to me Quake/Spore spammers are way worst than... oh wait, you can't spam with her. AFK? sure, just like Frosts, Limbos, Embers, or pretty much anybody that doesn't contribute to the mission, which is not restricted to any frame. Trolls? Nothing in her kit for that.

Some say that Gara's 4 is OP, but a lot more said that her 3 was useless (at least everytime I looked at the forum since she came out), so let me ask it again, where is this nerf coming from? Why is the rest of her kit left untouched?

Le 04/12/2017 à 13:53, [DE]Aidan a dit :

Bonus Info: We also have some exciting adjustments to our recent Volt changes. As you may recall, we were still actively reviewing the Damage aspect since the day we made the change (Prime Time with Steve explained this!)We have decided to remove the damage cap and raise the damage per second of Discharge, improve its synergy with Shock and we are also halving the energy costs of carrying around Electric Shields. Volt should now be given a bit more protected movement (albeit it with some energy cost), as well as just simply deal more damage overall! 

We're not talking about Volt's changes, but Gara's nerf. Might sound rude, but do not try to change subject like that to make us happy and forget what is coming. Gara is getting nerfed and buffing Volt isn't going to change anything to that.

Edited by Blade_Wolf_16
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Scaling an ability off armor and health for a frame that doesn't benefit from building armor or health.

Well that just makes no sense. Seriously, what are you guys thinking? Now we have to make useless builds just to make her Mass Vitrify usable?

Calling it now, this isn't gonna be the last time you 'work' on Gara...

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Just now, MrRagez said:

Scaling an ability off armor and health for a frame that doesn't benefit from building armor or health.

Well that just makes no sense. Seriously, what are you guys thinking? Now we have to make useless builds just to make her Mass Vitrify usable?

Calling it now, this isn't gonna be the last time you 'work' on Gara...

they just arent thinking when it comes to this rework, its going to totally break gara, it was a fantastic frame but i never felt op, if i didnt keep up with my timing i would still get dropped, sure with enough time and effort i could become a killing machine, but that took a lot of stacking and making sure to keep on top of my timers... gara is hard to farm, and im sure more people than average bought her, but now that they got their cash they wanna break her to make room for the next op frame Khora, who in a month or 2 will promptly have her metal kitty nerfed to S#&$ (or possibly all kavats) because "op" (read: time for next frame to sell)

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12 hours ago, SSI_Seraph said:

Same here and probably more than one or two in the same case. This is just locking us from having fun in what we enjoy because someone thinks it was so good it's broken when the same thing was in the game for ages and no one complained about it. Gotta complain about the new shiney tho. 

I am also an endurance runner, and this will likely kill Gara for me.... such potential wasted. 

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12 hours ago, LEGION346 said:

I will repeat what was said many times here. They nerf Gara's wall because she can lockdown areas. We already had frames who could do that. 

Limbo with Cataclysm. 

Vauban with Bastille. 

Banshee with Quake. 

Frost with Bubble. 

Octavia with Mallet and 4 since enemies will prioritise them. 

Rhino with 4 and nearly perma knock. 

There probably can be more. 

Have you ever built a max power range/efficiency Oberon and dropped Hallowed Ground with frequent uses of his 4? Lol, let’s talk about area lockdown. 

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I'm on console, so. I have a bit more time to enjoy Gara. With that said, She has easily made onto one of my favorite frames. I've forma'd and put a lens on her as well. And she's actually a defense frame I have fun with. So, DE, as much as I enjoy your game, and hold you in high appraisal at times, in all seriousness, I wander if you ever think a @(*()$ thing through. This is my first time posting/commenting, so dont know how strict you are on here, experience wise (but would'nt be surpirsed if I got banned from the forums). But I really wander if you pay attention at all when you develop and play your game. MV isnt overpowered. Idk why people throw that term around in a pve game? Why nerf something when it surpasses expectations? There's no sense in punishing a frame for doing its job, a damn fine job, at that. Its like, we arent meant to have nice things. Is that what goes through the minds of those who are going through with this nerf, as well as those who agree with it? Its ok to feel powerful, its ok to feel 'broken', as much as I hate that term. Given the map layout, MV can be slipped under by enemies, if your on a slanted enough slope. Your completely open to attacks from above. Sure, you can jump and then cast for a bigger wall, but thats not gonna stop some of the units from firing a barrage of missles into the air from their shoulder mounted javlin, dealing damage to you, your team, and the objective. And dont jump too high or MV wont even touch the ground. MV is gonna have to be recast at some point, which 'balances' out her wall being invunerable. Enemies cant get in (or out), making her an excellent area-denial frame. And her abilites work well together, though her 3rd is actually underwhelming, imo. Your taking what makes her great, and making it S#&$. Dont forget that during recast, while she may be invunerable to damage, her teammates, and the objective wont be until you harden her glass. She can cover all sides, but does no good if a few rocket loving enemies can blast a shell into the air, and land on you and your mates like fish in a barrell, or the other flyer type enemies that will defy gravity and get over your wall anyway. And still, you see no donwside to her, and say, "F*** it, nerf it anyway. Its what a minority want. They know what they're talking about". I'm just tired of finding something new that I can invest time into, and enjoy using, just for it to be nerfed away. Health to her wall makes her obsolete in high level runs, but DE or those who dont go passed sortie level dont understand that. I farmed for her, and built her, and for what? just to not touch her ever again in a few updates? Leave her in my arsenal to collect dust, or just sell her outright? I am seriously disappointed everytime I hear you people nerf something. And I say this in such a hateful attitude because I care so much about this game, and this Dev team. I've never played an outstanding game like this before, and I praise DE for what they've accomplished. You guys deserve this success because you worked for it, but damn, do you guys take an unsurmountable amount of steps back when you bring out that nerf hammer for no reason. You should know bettter. I will still support this game because I love it, and it's a game that helps me get through tough times (thank you), but I deffinitely will not be using Gara anymore when this goes live. And that's sad because you did a fine job with her. Such wasted potential though

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I think Gara is great as she is right now.  tanks well, and if you invest enough energy over the time of the mission, you can get up to dealing some insane damage in the shatterstorm area.

I am absolutely pumped for the Volt changes though, sounds great cant wait!

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