Jump to content

PSA: [PC] Upcoming Changes to Gara's "Mass Vitrify" (Bonus Volt Info)


Recommended Posts

Just now, Veisper said:

Take Limbo for exemple: press 4 then press 2. Your are right you have to press 1 more button, such a huge effort....

Cute, with Limbo's combination you lose the use of two weapon slots (primaries and secondaries) or otherwise will be regularly recasting that 2, you can only harm enemies in said globe, and the globe is constantly shrinking as the duration goes down. Far more limitations and interactions than Gara's one and done combo. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

OK, I've done quite a lot of meta-criticism towards the way DE approaches changes, the way the community responds to prospective changes, and the way DE deals with the community in general. Guess it's time I finally address the actual changes. 

  1. Mass Vitrify getting Health:
    • Is it an improvement? Yes. it prevents it from being stupidly unbalanced. Adding health to a defense object is the most sensible thing to do when it's duration isn't relevant (i.e. There is no downtime between casts), and frankly for it to make enemy attacks irrelevant is woefully unbalanced. I welcome these changes. Definetly an improvement, but introduces problems of its own:
    • Are there problematic aspects? Making it affected by armor mods hinders modding synergy between powers. , excessive disparity results in an impossibility to make the frame more effective, and at the worst cases lead players to completely discard some powers over making others more effective. That should never be something enforced. 
    • Sujestions: Make Mass Vitrify's Health scale from Health and Shield mods instead of Health and Armor mods. Shields are much more useful for Gara than Armor is, and therefore this prevents the erosion of modding synergy 
  2. Mass Vitrify breaking off in sections:
    • Is it an improvement? Not at all, as I describe in the next sections:
    • Are there problematic aspects? The supposedly positive trait of preventing the whole wall from getting destroyed by focused fire is irrelevant at best. The break down in sections prevents a distribution of damage dealt to the Wall, which means that the most attacked sections will be destroyed much faster. Since these are logically the most relevant ones (they are the ones defending against the biggest danger), the Wall is rendered functionally irrelevant (because it no longer exists where it actually matters), and the natural consequence is that the player will simply cast another wall. The change is ultimately made irrelevant, safe for the damage component that, itself, is rendered mute as levels go up. It's pointless at best, downright negative at worst. 
    • Sujestions: either do not introduce this change, or allow us to rotate the panels. Even then, chances are the only thing players will do will be to cast another wall, so either prevent that (which would introduce an interesting tactical management challenge to all Gara players) , or don't introduce this change at all. 
  3. Mass Vitrify no longer being affected by duration:
    • Is it an improvement? In this particular case, since the present duration is quite acceptable and it is a recast able power, doubtfully. Indeed, I'm quite sure it's overall a bad change, due to the the problems it brings:
    • Are there problematic aspects? Most definitely. Like making the wall's health be affected by armor, this change makes duration mods irrelevant - and therefore reduces its modding synergy with Splinter Shield and Spectrorage (though that power is already irrelevant, and therefore in need of a buff). Perhaps more importantly, it makes one stat irrelevant to one of her most important abilities, which encourages min-maxing and the effective discard of powers, making the most abusive and boring playstyles the most effective one. I'm quite sure this should not be encouraged. 
    • Sujestions: simply do not introduce it. 
  4. Final Veridict: though the base argument behind these changes is beyond legitimate - the power is grossly overpowered, and is grossly overpowered at next to no effort - the proposed changes themselves bring many more unnecessary issues than required. So, while I do think a nerf is warranted, it should not be done this way. More importantly, it does not address the rest of Gara's issues; namely, Spectrorage utter uselessness. Frames are more than the sum of their parts, they can be in need of both nerfs and buffs in different aspects. Gara needs to have her Mass Vitrify nerfed, no doubt - but she also needs to have her Spectrorage buffed. Only then she'll be a fully realized frame: useless powers are by definition incompatible with that. 

 

@[DE]Aidan please read that.

 

As for my comment, there's nothing to say, DE won't listen to our arguments, we aren't youtubers, we don't matter. DE plans to kill Gara, so I should start cleaning a spot on the shelf for her.

 

I don't need a shorter range Ember. Frost crybabies came, killed her 4, next will be Ember crybabies saying that Gara's 2 is more OP than Ember's 4, DE will listen to them, kill her 2 as well, and one of the most well designed frames will be the trashiest frame in the game (which was supposed to be Atlas' niche, talk about "one frame stealing the place of another")

 

Someone told me that DE balances only for sortie 3 level enemies, and in that case, @[DE]Aidan please start nerfing (in no particular oder) Octavia, Harrow, Nidus, Excalibur, Banshee, Saryn, Equinox, Ivara, etc except Atlas

 

The only nerfs Gara needs are to her 2, being a limited amount of stacks and a max expansion range to her 4 to make it so that she can't block all the map. Simple, no need to ruin her. 

Edited by Zin-Azhsari
Link to post
Share on other sites
il y a 4 minutes, Cubewano a dit :

Cute, with Limbo's combination you lose the use of two weapon slots (primaries and secondaries) or otherwise will be regularly recasting that 2, you can only harm enemies in said globe, and the globe is constantly shrinking as the duration goes down. Far more limitations and interactions than Gara's one and done combo. 

This is about : "Most frames is they want to lock down a room"

Please don't change the context of my answer to your observation

Edited by Veisper
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Veisper said:

This is about : "Most frames is they want to lock down a room"

Please don't change the context of my answer to your observation

I'm not even sure what you are quoting, but I didn't change the context of your answer in the least. I mentioned the higher requirements/upkeep other frames have, you responded trying to trivialize it, I then pointed out how inaccurate that statement was. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Cute, with Limbo's combination you lose the use of two weapon slots (primaries and secondaries) or otherwise will be regularly recasting that 2, you can only harm enemies in said globe, and the globe is constantly shrinking as the duration goes down. Far more limitations and interactions than Gara's one and done combo. 

I disagree, with a high duration and range build limbo can just stay in the rift to regen energy and spam that 2 and 4 as much as he wants. It's trivial, talk about powers that discourage player interaction, he can literally just be invincible as much as he wants.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, (Xbox One)FISTO ROBOT0 said:

I disagree, with a high duration and range build limbo can just stay in the rift to regen energy and spam that 2 and 4 as much as he wants. It's trivial, talk about powers that discourage player interaction, he can literally just be invincible as much as he wants.

It still requires interaction and trade offs. What interactions and trade offs does Gara's ult have outside refreshing it ever other minute at pretty much no risk? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, (Xbox One)FISTO ROBOT0 said:

I disagree, with a high duration and range build limbo can just stay in the rift to regen energy and spam that 2 and 4 as much as he wants. It's trivial, talk about powers that discourage player interaction, he can literally just be invincible as much as he wants.

Hell, all he has to do is just dash once and he is utterly invincible.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Did someone considered the fact that If you manage to build some good range and duration you can can block the enemy behind doors or before they have a line of sight of the objective (and/or you) and they will not shoot (because there is nothing to shoot in their line of sight) but still being blocked?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Veisper said:

Did someone considered the fact that If you manage to build some good range and duration you can can block the enemy behind doors or before they have a line of sight of the objective (and/or you) and they will not shoot (because there is nothing to shoot in their line of sight) but still being blocked?

Now that is a legitimate problem. they should be focusing on that instead of duration and it being invulnerable

Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, watching this play out makes me think some people just don't play frames that are able to lock down areas.  It is just as easy if not more easy for other frames to not only lock out areas with 1 or 2 button presses but many can even kill everything as well. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
il y a 21 minutes, Cubewano a dit :

I'm not even sure what you are quoting, but I didn't change the context of your answer in the least. I mentioned the higher requirements/upkeep other frames have, you responded trying to trivialize it, I then pointed out how inaccurate that statement was. 

I am quoting you lol :

il y a 45 minutes, Cubewano a dit :

She only has to do the skill once every other minute for absolute protection? Most frames is they want to lock down a room have to be involved and actually put up some level of effort/activity, Gara can just plop her four and take a nap until it expires.

You cant remember your own message?

My answer to you was on this point, you know the only point of your observation, you don't say anything about killing things after using her skill.

(I put colors because you seem's to have hard time to understand)

Edited by Veisper
Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Cute, with Limbo's combination you lose the use of two weapon slots (primaries and secondaries) or otherwise will be regularly recasting that 2, you can only harm enemies in said globe, and the globe is constantly shrinking as the duration goes down. Far more limitations and interactions than Gara's one and done combo. 

We totall don't have melee weapons capable of killing enemies is a few seconds. Limbo doesn't have augment allowing him to kill even faster. He doesn't have augment to keep his cataclysm up all the time. You are totally right.

 

You forgot to mention that once Gara puts the wall, enemies are still alive and she still need to kill them. Limbo can keep his rift and keep killing enemies while being invincible.

 

Edited by LEGION346
Link to post
Share on other sites
à l’instant, LEGION346 a dit :

We totall don't have melee weapons capable of killing enemies is a few seconds. Limbo doesn't have augment allowing him to kill even faster. He doesn't have augment to keep his cataclysm up all the time. You are totally right.

 

You forgot to mention that once Gara puts the wall, enemies are still alive and she still need to kill them. Limbo can kepp his rift and keep killing enemies while being invincible.

Thank you.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Veisper said:

Did someone considered the fact that If you manage to build some good range and duration you can can block the enemy behind doors or before they have a line of sight of the objective (and/or you) and they will not shoot (because there is nothing to shoot in their line of sight) but still being blocked?

We considered it. Many players suggested fixing and buffing enemies AI

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Veisper said:

I quote you:

You cant remeber your own message?

My answer to you was on this point, you know the only point of your observation, you don't say anything about killing things after using her skill.

(I put colors because you seem's to have hard time to understand)

Oh, I didn't realize I made a typo. Woops. 

And I said most of them have to exert effort and be involved to lockdown a room, which I have provided, you can't just crop out a part of statement and ignore the rest. Limbo exists within a constantly shrinking zone while keepings tabs on his stasis because its duration isn't exclusively under his control, and all the while trading off all ranged weaponry to boot. If you want Gara to work like that though, the suggestion can be made. The wall can be always shrinking, require a second skill to make it so enemies can't pass through (that somehow can be broken prematurely by teammates), and require two weapons be turned off. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, LEGION346 said:

We totall don't have melee weapons capable of killing enemies is a few seconds. Limbo doesn't have augment allowing him to kill even faster. He doesn't have augment to keep his cataclysm up all the time. You are totally right.

 

You forgot to mention that once Gara puts the wall, enemies are still alive and she still need to kill them. Limbo can keep his rift and keep killing enemies while being invincible.

 

Nowhere did I imply we didn't. But all the same you just lost two weapon classes, and range is greatly reduced. 

So can gara, from within her unbreakable wall, and with guns~ (and she doesn't have to worry about her perfect defense being interrupted by team mates either)

Edited by Cubewano
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Veisper said:

Did someone considered the fact that If you manage to build some good range and duration you can can block the enemy behind doors or before they have a line of sight of the objective (and/or you) and they will not shoot (because there is nothing to shoot in their line of sight) but still being blocked?

 

2 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Oh, I didn't realize I made a typo. Woops. 

And I said most of them have to exert effort and be involved to lockdown a room, which I have provided, you can't just crop out a part of statement and ignore the rest. Limbo exists within a constantly shrinking zone while keepings tabs on his stasis because its duration isn't exclusively under his control, and all the while trading off all ranged weaponry to boot. If you want Gara to work like that though, the suggestion can be made. The wall can be always shrinking, require a second skill to make it so enemies can't pass through (that somehow can be broken prematurely by teammates), and require two weapons be turned off. 

Do you actually use Limbo?  I can literally set him up on a Mobile defense and do nothing.  My range and duration are so high they last almost 2 full minutes.  If I want I can melee everything to death or just sit there and stair at the enemies.  I'd say Gara's ability to allow gun usage makes the game more fun. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
il y a 10 minutes, Cubewano a dit :

Oh, I didn't realize I made a typo. Woops. 

And I said most of them have to exert effort and be involved to lockdown a room, which I have provided, you can't just crop out a part of statement and ignore the rest. Limbo exists within a constantly shrinking zone while keepings tabs on his stasis because its duration isn't exclusively under his control, and all the while trading off all ranged weaponry to boot. If you want Gara to work like that though, the suggestion can be made. The wall can be always shrinking, require a second skill to make it so enemies can't pass through (that somehow can be broken prematurely by teammates), and require two weapons be turned off. 

Man with range and duration Limbo can have a pretty huge Cataclysm with a duration of 81 seconds, he have to press 4 and 2 don't talk me about effort...

Your are talking about lockdown a room and being safe and AFK, I answer you Limbo can do it that's all. Your first statement was about that.

Yes Cataclysm shrink but with good duration it does very slowly and you are still safe in the rift and in 81 second you have plenty of time to regen the needed energy to cast your 4 and 2 again.

Edited by Veisper
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, HedrusPrime said:

 

Do you actually use Limbo?  I can literally set him up on a Mobile defense and do nothing.  My range and duration are so high they last almost 2 full minutes.  If I want I can melee everything to death or just sit there and stair at the enemies.  I'd say Gara's ability to allow gun usage makes the game more fun. 

Sometimes, md is probably his best cheese since killing doesn't matter. Otherwise his restrictions count more. I'm not saying limbo couldn't use some changes himself, but that doesn't really invalidate Gara's position. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Veisper said:

Man with full range and full duration Limbo can have a pretty huge Cataclysm with a duration of 81 seconds, he have to press 4 and 2 don't talk me about effort...

Your are talking about lockdown a room and being safe and AFK, I answer you Limbo can do it that's all. Your first statement was about that.

Yes Cataclysm shrink but with good duration it does very slowly and you are still safe in the rift and in 81 second you have plenty of time to regen the needed energy to cast your 4 and 2 again.

Fair point, In a mission that doesn't require killing Limbo does better (assuming this is solo, or if his team is co-operating) but otherwise he has more restrictions. All this really proves though is Limbo needs tuning as well. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Cubewano said:

Sometimes, md is probably his best cheese since killing doesn't matter. Otherwise his restrictions count more. I'm not saying limbo couldn't use some changes himself, but that doesn't really invalidate Gara's position. 

My point wasn't to validate or invalidate anything man.  My point is that many other frames can do similar stuff.  Some would argue better and easier as well.  My point is that she is fine the way she is.  And if she isn't fine then around a third of the frames in the game should be nerfed really hard.  I'm on the side of leave it alone.  People like the game the way it is.  If you think something is boring don't use it.  These types of nerfs only hurt the game in my opinion. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
à l’instant, Cubewano a dit :

Fair point, In a mission that doesn't require killing Limbo does better (assuming this is solo, or if his team is co-operating) but otherwise he has more restrictions. All this really proves though is Limbo needs tuning as well. 

This is in part why many of us here found this change unfair at the moment, so much frame need it too. And since Gara was hard to get and fun to play instead of fixing her 3 they nerf to the ground her 4 (nerf at the point where Frost bubble is better) and totally ignore the other frame with lockdown capability and they use the lockdown to justify the changes.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, HedrusPrime said:

My point wasn't to validate or invalidate anything man.  My point is that many other frames can do similar stuff.  Some would argue better and easier as well.  My point is that she is fine the way she is.  And if she isn't fine then around a third of the frames in the game should be nerfed really hard.  I'm on the side of leave it alone.  People like the game the way it is.  If you think something is boring don't use it.  These types of nerfs only hurt the game in my opinion. 

The only others frames I can think of somewhat close to Gara (and not on the same tier) is Limbo and Banshee, that isn't 1/3 of the warframe roster. And I would 100% understand and probably agree if changes (but not blind nerfs) were made to their kits to make them more involved. One of the fantastic things about this game is it constantly willing to evolve and improve, and much to your dismay, it has been going strong and growing bigger all the time alongside it. People haven't been flocking to this game because it doesn't change, that has never been a thing, and it'd probably be worse off if it did. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Cubewano said:

The only others frames I can think of somewhat close to Gara (and not on the same tier) is Limbo and Banshee, that isn't 1/3 of the warframe roster. And I would 100% understand and probably agree if changes (but not blind nerfs) were made to their kits to make them more involved. One of the fantastic things about this game is it constantly willing to evolve and improve, and much to your dismay, it has been going strong and growing bigger all the time alongside it. People haven't been flocking to this game because it doesn't change, that has never been a thing, and it'd probably be worse off if it did. 

 

Vauban, Octavia, Ember come to mind instantly.

 

If Gara got a max range on her 4 and lose the ability to cast it while active, along getting a small duration increase on her 2 so she can refresh it but lose the ability to infinitely stack it, and a small buff to her 3, she would be perfect.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Is Warframe a PvE or PvP game?
Seriously, any Warframe if used in a certain way to annoy it, does it Gara as does a full range Banshee or a full range Frost.
This nerf does not make sense to exist, especially when there is something else to think about rather than to please the children who cry.
Then if we have to say it all, the behavior of the DE is now ridiculous, there are 33 pages where they are told (with valid arguments) that this nerf is useless and only ruins the warframe, and that they say? who listen to the community? lol

By now this nerf will come, these 33 pages have not served anything. 

Edited by (PS4)MRPecoraH
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...