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PSA: [PC] Upcoming Changes to Gara's "Mass Vitrify" (Bonus Volt Info)


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1 minute ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

I totally agree here, yet the only way to keep players engaged is to allow them to play the game their own way, as opposed to one uniform method.

So they need to keep players engaged by allowing more un-engaging playstyles? 

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Just now, Cubewano said:

Fair enough I guess, I don't think it's the direction DE wants to go with their game though. 

That's the danger.  Right now there is a good balance of being able to play in many ways.  The more DE forces us to play a specific way they will lose player base.  I'm  more for letting all play styles be valid and part of the game.  I miss all the nuke abilities that can kill everything in 1 button press.  I already have several friends that stopped playing the game because of nerfs. 

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1 minute ago, (PS4)MRPecoraH said:

To play it without bothering.
Can I tell you what it takes to press 4 for Banshee (3 minutes of quake without augment) and 4 and 2 for Limbo?
If you play badly it is not the fault of the frame, but of who uses it.

This entire response confuses me. (also why are my quotes in spanish?)

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1 minute ago, Cubewano said:

So they need to keep players engaged by allowing more un-engaging playstyles? 

If players want to play like that, yes. If some players want to cast wall and stay inside, let them. Some players cast wall to protect objective and go out for killing spree without worries about objective.

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Just now, LEGION346 said:

If players want to play like that, yes. If some players want to cast wall and stay inside, let them. Some players cast wall to protect objective and go out for killing spree without worries about objective.

This is exactly why I love Gara. 

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

Agreed on both fronts. I would personally recommend removing the duration scale, but keeping the invulnerability because it is the major drawing factor. Hell, they could even just cap the duration so that you can only have the equivalent of Continuity on in total duration. Just continuity is only 10 seconds as opposed to minutes. Don't forget though that it takes a lot of time and energy to cast, meaning that if it is popped by a nullifier at any point, you have effectively wasted your time and effort.

That sounds like an immense buff. A wall with no damage cap and no expiration date? The whole issue now is that is lasts too long with no risk/upkeep to it, you just plop it down and it wins (with the exception of nullies) until expiration.  A lower duration could do something I guess, but I feel like that's a more annoying direction to go. And I haven't forgotten, but I don't think it's really as extreme as some paint it. 

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2 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

That sounds like an immense buff. A wall with no damage cap and no expiration date? The whole issue now is that is lasts too long with no risk/upkeep to it, you just plop it down and it wins (with the exception of nullies) until expiration.  A lower duration could do something I guess, but I feel like that's a more annoying direction to go. And I haven't forgotten, but I don't think it's really as extreme as some paint it. 

What I mean is that is currently allows for continuity, which is the only duration mod I personally have on mine, and the others. What I propose is that they limit it to just Continuity so that it only has 10 seconds maximum, or just remove that ability entirely leaving only 5 seconds maximum on MV. The main issue with why I am painting it to be an issue for nullifers is purely that I run a range build primarily. That means that it will take more time for MV to expand. Hope this helps.

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5 minutes ago, LEGION346 said:

If players want to play like that, yes. If some players want to cast wall and stay inside, let them. Some players cast wall to protect objective and go out for killing spree without worries about objective.

That removes the entire challenge/purpose of defense missions. 

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

Not exactly. What I am advocating is that they leave some avenues open for people who want to play like that, while keeping a majority of the frames as engaging.

But the avenue in question is less interactive/engaging skills, so it is what is being advocated for. There is wanting to play defensively and wanting to not actually have to play. The later is the issue here. 

6 minutes ago, HedrusPrime said:

That's the danger.  Right now there is a good balance of being able to play in many ways.  The more DE forces us to play a specific way they will lose player base.  I'm  more for letting all play styles be valid and part of the game.  I miss all the nuke abilities that can kill everything in 1 button press.  I already have several friends that stopped playing the game because of nerfs. 

The more DE focuses on getting players actually playing the game, the more they will lose players? This game has been constantly getting bigger and drawing a larger audience, even after they stomped out all the press 4 to win skills the game only soared higher, making the game more interactive is not going to kill it. But I guess to each their own with playstyles, if you can tell DE enough that you want frames to all be made more game breaking,and bring back press 4 to win and similar loudly enough and the listen, go for it. I'm not a fan myself, I like actually playing the game and moving around, but this game isn't just for me. 

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2 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

The more DE focuses on getting players actually playing the game, the more they will lose players? This game has been constantly getting bigger and drawing a larger audience, even after they stomped out all the press 4 to win skills the game only soared higher, making the game more interactive is not going to kill it. But I guess to each their own with playstyles, if you can tell DE enough that you want frames to all be made more game breaking,and bring back press 4 to win and similar loudly enough and the listen, go for it. I'm not a fan myself, I like actually playing the game and moving around, but this game isn't just for me. 

The highlighted bold area is my point.  I don't want DE to limit people in play styles.  Let it all be in there.  If I want to play press 4 to win why not?  If you want to play Dark Souls difficulty why not allow that too!?  My issue with these nerfs is that it is herding us in a direction.  And yes, forcing a certain play style and removing others will actually get people to stop playing even if currently the game is growing.  There have been ups and downs in this games history.  I think some of it was a direct result of rebalancing issues causing players to leave. 

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Never really used Gara's 4. ability, but it felt really boring to use, and just go afk watching the enemies trying to go through/shoot through the glass, it was basicaly a better frost snow globe, it had to be reworked, and for the Volt changes, i think im going to use him a little bit more often than before

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my real problem with this change to gara is making her

not meta or high lvl defense by yourself

i dont have her but she is pretty useless of the gameplay i have seen

her only good ability is her fourth for it being timed and cannot be destroyed

the only idea i had for it is you have to be on the ground to it than jumping

not make it that is uses armor and strength mods

it makes more of a overpriced frost and secondly it makes bombards,heavy gunners,troopers,naplams,and other higher tier units shred through it like butter

she should have different changes like i mnetion about having to be on the ground to use her fourth 

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2 minutes ago, christen02 said:

my real problem with this change to gara is making her

not meta or high lvl defense by yourself

i dont have her but she is pretty useless of the gameplay i have seen

her only good ability is her fourth for it being timed and cannot be destroyed

the only idea i had for it is you have to be on the ground to it than jumping

not make it that is uses armor and strength mods

it makes more of a overpriced frost and secondly it makes bombards,heavy gunners,troopers,naplams,and other higher tier units shred through it like butter

she should have different changes like i mnetion about having to be on the ground to use her fourth 

her 2. ability, Splinter Storm give dmg Reduction, with only 30% you have 90% reduction, you can put this on allies, and even defense target

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11 minutes ago, vid23 said:

her 2. ability, Splinter Storm give dmg Reduction, with only 30% you have 90% reduction, you can put this on allies, and even defense target

i say no to that

you should have %50 dmg reduction while your teammates get 25%

her 3 should have a chance of inflicting a slash proc

her first i dont really

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people talking about being able to keep walls up for minutes at a time, what world are you in? if people are building for pure duration why is that an issue, why break a frame for peoples builds? i run a pretty balanced build, i get 38 seconds, i am plenty active with my gara, i run out and about CONSTANTLY! and this change is going to RUIN a frame ive been having fun with by making her ult completely useless in my current build, because her wall will be around the consistency of tissue paper as i dont build for armor on a frame with low armor... i thought DE were over nerfing frames for being able to do what they were built to do...

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@[DE]Aidan Health based scaling off armour is still just really bad in general (and not just on Gara, see further for more details), and the sections just make her ability awful. Please for the love of everything don't make the walls health based because as I previously mentioned, even at level 50 corrupted or level 60-65 grineer frost's single globe gets killed within a second. Add to that that Gara can't recast her wall like he can to keep it invincible and add extra health at the same time, these changes will most definitely break her.

A quick anecdote: the first time I encountered gara I thought she was a cool and useful frame to have and a nice alternative though certainly to not replacement of frost, though her range on her walls made her a bit more situational than him. Then I learned that she could also keep out enemies and I thought that was kinda overpowered. Then I played frost for the first time in the void mobile defense missions and rather than thinking that it was Gara who was overpowered, it was Frost and Rhino's health based abilities that were grossly underpowered and horribly balanced in the context of the game, and felt that they should be brought up to gara's standard. Heck, even before gara was introduced I felt rhino needed a way to recast his iron skin since he could get instakilled becuase he only had 1% left on his ability, though I was pretty happy with frost's recast. Now, rather than addressing the horrible health scaling those abilities have you nerf the only frame that didn't have that issue and thus was good. Not overpowered, but at the level all frames using similar abilities should have been in the first place.

The only thing that was overpowered was Gara's combined wall invincibility and ability to keep them out. Rather than removing the first which made her viable in a good way, you should address the second which made her perhaps a bit powerful in the context of the game, though only by a bit. I feel like slowing enemies down when they enter the wall would be a nice way to go, which could be introduced however you want. I was kinda thinking that she is able to keep out all enemies for a while after the cast, though only for a bit of the duration (think 25-50%), after which enemies would be able to enter but be frozen over time like on her initial cast. This wouldn't make her overpowered since her 4 requires an ungodly amount of energy, while still keeping her more than viable and fans of her happy.

Last note: can you please address her nuke status of her 2, and make her 3 more useful? I would also like to see an ability for gara to stun enemies somehow, it seems like it would fit. Perhaps after the explosion of her 3? And a way to spread her 2 on enemies would be nice as well since its casting speed and energy cost is quite high. Perhaps tied into her 3 or 1 somehow. Her 2 is useless for accumaliting damage when cast on enemies, fixing that would maybe be nice as well though certainly not necessary, as it increases damage dealt to enemies - being able to spread it would essentially give the same effect and make for a nice visual show on top of that.

Summary: Gara's ability to keep enemies out indefinitely should be addressed seperately to the invincibility of her wall, her 3 needs a rework, her 2 on self and allies needs to be nerfed drastically damage wise, her 2 on enemies needs a buff and a way to be spread, she needs to be able to stun enemies with some interaction of her abilities. Lastly, Frost needs a rework to his globe to improve late game performance while removing dependence on armour mods and general improvements to make his kit more viable to use at the same time as globe (ice wave impedance being default comes to mind, as well as removing over-reliance on strength mods).

Aside: Rhino needs some love as well, especially with regards to his iron skin as it being reduced to 1% certainly means death, since to recast it he needs to be hit and being hit means taking more damage than his health and shields and remaining iron skin combined.

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30 minutes ago, christen02 said:

i say no to that

you should have %50 dmg reduction while your teammates get 25%

her 3 should have a chance of inflicting a slash proc

her first i dont really

first you say she will be useless, i say she hs 90% dmg reduction and now you telling me it should be nerfed, this makes no sense

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1 hour ago, LEGION346 said:

If players want to play like that, yes. If some players want to cast wall and stay inside, let them. Some players cast wall to protect objective and go out for killing spree without worries about objective.

There's two issues with that. 

The first, is that games must inherently limit players if they expect to engage them. 

That seems counterintuitive and condescendent, I agree, but that's how the satisfaction gained from an effort-reward action occurs. When you have to input no effort at all, the reward feels meaningless. You have little to no fun, and soon you'll burn out. 

That's one of the main reasons Warframe feels so utterly unrewarding - it's because it's beyond easy. 

For crap's sake this is intuitive. Why the hell do you want to be able to stay 4 hours on Void Defense with little to no effort? Isn't the challenge and bragging rights the point of going up the enemy levels? Why the hell do you want to have the tools that render those points mute? 

And you don't want a challenge? Fair enough, keep to low levels. I mean, thats exactly for what they exist. To pretend you need to have grossly unbalanced powers in order to give players "choice" on how hard they want their challenge to be is either obtuse or dishonest, because there are already systems in place to regulate that that do not completely screw anyone who wants to use a frame to their full potential and still be challenged. 

But even if you want to discard any form of psychological study and laws as "subjective" and pretend we are all purely logical creatures with no tendencies or caveats, there are real, "objective" reasons why players should be limited in term power, and be demanded to work for what they get. 

It's called economy. 

This is a free to play game. In order to ensure a somewhat steady influx and expense of plat, players must have their access to resources difficulted in one way or another. Make them too easy, and no plat will enter - because all mods will become worthless due to abundancy, and all boosters become meaningless. 

And what happens when those things become too easy? They have to balance it out. And if they don't do so through difficulty (which is engaging at least for some), they do so through time walls,  hema-like resource sinks, and time exclusive powerful equipment - things that aren't engaging to anyone. 

So yes, OP tools aren't "extra player choice". They are redundant to difficulty systems at best, and downright toxic to the in game economy and the players at worst. 

And frankly, to pretend that making it impossible for players who do want to have a challenge to have said challenge in benefit of those who are too high on a power trip to notice the conundrums in their demands is woefully dishonest and downright contradictory.

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34 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

There's two issues with that. 

The first, is that games must inherently limit players if they expect to engage them. 

That seems counterintuitive and condescendent, I agree, but that's how the satisfaction gained from an effort-reward action occurs. When you have to input no effort at all, the reward feels meaningless. You have little to no fun, and soon you'll burn out. 

That's one of the main reasons Warframe feels so utterly unrewarding - it's because it's beyond easy. 

For crap's sake this is intuitive. Why the hell do you want to be able to stay 4 hours on Void Defense with little to no effort? Isn't the challenge and bragging rights the point of going up the enemy levels? Why the hell do you want to have the tools that render those points mute? 

And you don't want a challenge? Fair enough, keep to low levels. I mean, thats exactly for what they exist. To pretend you need to have grossly unbalanced powers in order to give players "choice" on how hard they want their challenge to be is either obtuse or dishonest, because there are already systems in place to regulate that that do not completely screw anyone who wants to use a frame to their full potential and still be challenged. 

But even if you want to discard any form of psychological study and laws as "subjective" and pretend we are all purely logical creatures with no tendencies or caveats, there are real, "objective" reasons why players should be limited in term power, and be demanded to work for what they get. 

It's called economy. 

This is a free to play game. In order to ensure a somewhat steady influx and expense of plat, players must have their access to resources difficulted in one way or another. Make them too easy, and no plat will enter - because all mods will become worthless due to abundancy, and all boosters become meaningless. 

And what happens when those things become too easy? They have to balance it out. And if they don't do so through difficulty (which is engaging at least for some), they do so through time walls,  hema-like resource sinks, and time exclusive powerful equipment - things that aren't engaging to anyone. 

So yes, OP tools aren't "extra player choice". They are redundant to difficulty systems at best, and downright toxic to the in game economy and the players at worst. 

And frankly, to pretend that making it impossible for players who do want to have a challenge to have said challenge in benefit of those who are too high on a power trip to notice the conundrums in their demands is woefully dishonest and downright contradictory.

Hmm. But Gara isn't as powerful as you suggest. If she goes out on a killing spree, she can take damage. While not as much as most frames, still quite a lolt. If she were ever to run out of health at some point, she'd have to recast 4. But that would mean that if she didn't constantly mind her health and position with respect to the wall, she would be stuck outside while being unable to protect the objective for a few seconds while getting back shields. Gara doesn't feel like a 'press 4 to win' frame at all, and while yes, you can stay in void defense for a long, long time, it still requires quite a bit of skill, just not in the way frames usually do. Gara is all about positioning, timining, and micromanagement of health, shields and armour - all at the same time. I don't really know all that many frames that require that beyond perhaps nidus, and even he requires it to a lesser degree than Gara since he gets energy stupidly easily while Gara relies heavily on the time between her casts of 4 to get her energy back since she can't use zenurik while channeling her 4. It's very, very different to how other defense frames work, except for maybe banshee, but she still has other abilities she can rely on for effective cc (both her 1 and silence are very good), while Gara only has her 4 to realistically keep enemies at bay, even if her 3 gets a buff since it only covers a relatively small area compared to, say, silence or even knockdown abilities.

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Few pages or posts ago I said I'm one of those players who runs endless missions for the challenge those missions can provide. Usually take Oberon, Mesa, Harrow or Titania not because they make high level missions easy but just because these 4 gives me most fun and satisfaction from doing long run.

16 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

For crap's sake this is intuitive. Why the hell do you want to be able to stay 4 hours on Void Defense with little to no effort? Isn't the challenge and bragging rights the point of going up the enemy levels? Why the hell do you want to have the tools that render those points mute? 

Where I said that? I didn't say I do mission without effort. I just said something that comes from my observation of how other players play Gara. Also how many times did you hear about someone doing 4 hour void defense? If minority do that, why bother with not even 0.1% of players probably doing that? If they want to do long runs like that, let them. Their choice. 

 

18 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

And you don't want a challenge?

Yes I want. That's why I pick sometimes Titania for 2-3 hours missions. Who else would do that?

I want missions with higher difficulty level outside endless missions. I want content that will be TRULY hard and designed to be hard.

 

20 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

To pretend you need to have grossly unbalanced powers in order to give players "choice" on how hard they want their challenge to be is either obtuse or dishonest

We already have powers like that and yes, MV is one of them. Mesa's peacemaker obliterates anything in sight. Equinox just need small effort and get aoe nuke that can kill anything. Octavia 3 and perma stealth. Octavia 1 + 4. Why MV is getting nerfed while there are already powers that makes most of the game easy. Players can go without using peacemaker, Octavia whole kit (!) but then they would ask, why I just don't pick someone else? Tell someone to not use peacemaker to make things harder. It will work out really well.

 

1 hour ago, LEGION346 said:

If players want to play like that, yes. If some players want to cast wall and stay inside, let them. Some players cast wall to protect objective and go out for killing spree without worries about objective.

I didn't say I do things like in this post. Whenever I saw Gara they did one of those things. I said this purely from observing other players playing Gara.

 

26 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

In order to ensure a somewhat steady influx and expense of plat, players must have their access to resources difficulted in one way or another. Make them too easy, and no plat will enter - because all mods will become worthless due to abundancy, and all boosters become meaningless. 

Difficulty that nearly do not exist in warframe outside long endless runs. Raids are joke. Sortie are easy even with special conditions. Where is the difficulty?

I do not deny, that MV needs changes. But not changes like this. Changes proposed by DE are simple an overnerf. Remember that at Gara's release, they BUFFED MV. Why? Because it was too weak. Now after month (months?) they see it as a problem. Couldn't they forsee that this buff will make MV strong? Far stronger? 

Gara's ability to lock down area vs trash mobs is powerful. Vs high level enemies, it will be her only way to keep herself safe since her DR won't be enough at one point.

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3 minutes ago, FunnyBunny3141 said:

Hmm. But Gara isn't as powerful as you suggest. If she goes out on a killing spree, she can take damage. While not as much as most frames, still quite a lolt. If she were ever to run out of health at some point, she'd have to recast 4. But that would mean that if she didn't constantly mind her health and position with respect to the wall, she would be stuck outside while being unable to protect the objective for a few seconds while getting back shields. Gara doesn't feel like a 'press 4 to win' frame at all, and while yes, you can stay in void defense for a long, long time, it still requires quite a bit of skill, just not in the way frames usually do. Gara is all about positioning, timining, and micromanagement of health, shields and armour - all at the same time. I don't really know all that many frames that require that beyond perhaps nidus, and even he requires it to a lesser degree than Gara since he gets energy stupidly easily while Gara relies heavily on the time between her casts of 4 to get her energy back since she can't use zenurik while channeling her 4. It's very, very different to Frost.

Thank you. Really :D

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