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[DE]Aidan

PSA: [PC] Upcoming Changes to Gara's "Mass Vitrify" (Bonus Volt Info)

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I feel the need to remind people that frost gets not 1, not 2 not even just 3, but 4 globes that have low cast time, infinite duration, can cover bad angles because of the top, and have a stackable health on top of a refreshable invulnerability that adds HP and PURGES the area inside. Garas 4 may lock out enemies for a period but it must be recast from start fairly frequently and if it gets an HP bar then maintaining it seems nearly impossible. Also considering that it can be shot through when casting, the objective or party members inside will end up vulnerable far longer than any other defense frame such as frost or limbo in particular. This change is only going to exacerbate the already long cast time of her 4.

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Also I think that DE should also focus on Spectrorage. It is basically useless against enemies that have AoE of some sort. (And basically every enemy has one) It really needs a big time buff. Damage it deals is basically useless. Radiation proc on pop of each mirror however would be MUCH more useful. Making AoE damage from affecting all mirrors is a MUST buff. Because nobody trusts a ring of mirrors to protect them since one AoE can just totally destroy the ability. Don't know about Shattered Lash myself but clearly. Spectrorage is in dire need of help.

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2 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

Still makes them able to shoot inside thou, besdies it not damages them, just shoves them backwards, while on Gara she can stakc as mayn she wants infront her wall, thne decides to shatter it, damage all of them at once, Vauban is pure CC in this case while Gara is Defense with alot of damage capability.

never combined repelling bastille with vortex I assume, they do actually synergise. 

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2 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

If a frame that was mostly used in Kuva farming and had buggy enough ability with long cast time that left your teamamtes and objective vulnerable "made frost irrelevant" for you especially with a fact that frost is milliosn years old and everyone's sick of seeing him in all kind of defense misisons I have some bad news bud.

what frames are used as doesnt really mean theyre really bad or good frames. tons of great frames are underplayed cus they take more than just pressing 4. and tons of other frames that are old, dont tell me people are only sick of frost.

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It seems weird for her to get a nerf at this time, but I guess now it is innevitable. However, please do keep in mind aspects from other frames when you are going to decide the scaling multipliers. Frost can cast multiple globes and can reinforce them upon casting in the same place. Gara can only have one wall at a time, which means what not only can't she cast it in multiple places, she can't reinforce it either.

So either make it so that it scales much better than what Frost has, or make it so that you can reinforce it, just like Frost can. And in the meantime, please do take a look at her 3 and how it scales, because it becomes completely useless at high levels since enemies hit the damage cap almost immediately. 

Edited by aligatorno
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Actually just thought of another downside that isn't being removed with these changes either.  I haven't seen it happen with any other ability but with gara's mass vitrify if there is a spawn point inside the ring the enemies will still actually spawn and come after you at their normal speeds, they aren't coated in glass or anything. 

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I think the player suggestion to have the health mirror Frost's health build-up application would be the most fair for players if this change goes through. Its a significant nerf to the current functionality particularly if duration is still going to effect the move. I can understand why players wouldn't feel to much desire to use Steel Fiber on Gara as she has less base armor than Oberon, which is pretty much the current middle-ground with all the slow increase in enemy damage over the years. Perhaps this change should come like it did with Frost and increase Gara's base armor if the life with scale off of armor? We must recall, this was the same reasoning for why Frost had his armor boosted from 155 to 300 after all.

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I also suggest to remove the duration of Mass Vitrify if you´re going to add health.. Snow Globe and Mass Vitrify should be used for similar roles but have their own traits. What if...instead of having health Mass Vitrify gradually cracks on some spots as times goes on? Like: a crack and broken piece on the top, then on the bottom and as the duration expires more and more parts crack until the whole thing falls apart?

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1 minute ago, Urlan said:

I can understand why players wouldn't feel to much desire to use Steel Fiber on Gara as she has less base armor than Oberon, which is pretty much the current middle-ground with all the slow increase in enemy damage over the years

It's not just that, gara's 2 basically removes the need for any armor because of it's damage reduction so it's basically just wasting a mod slot

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il y a 17 minutes, Stoner74 a dit :

Fair enough. But she isn't a DPS frame, her main purpose is to CC an area. And she does it well, almost too well for DE it seems. I don't like the change but I can understand the reasoning behind it. 

But she is supposed to be built around defense and CC. Her 4 and 2 are made to defend yourself AND your team, I understand that making her wall explode is a strong combo but it's still the choice of destroying your defense for the sake of burst damage. It also doesn't help that her other CC ability isn't that useful actually. But I don't understand this "aversion" to how good she is at defense when she was built for it : are you gonna complain to one of your employee that his doing his job too good ? Of course you won't.

It also doesn't take in consideration that enemies can go over (or under depending of the map) the wall and attack you. You know what also bypass the wall ? Mortars, Dergyns, the upcoming Ghouls.

Also, if DE isn't okay with her being "too good", why is Trinity still allowed to give infine health as well as overshield with augment ? Nova is pretty much an amazing frame in all missions that isn't a joke one (Spy/Rescue) thanks to her 4 and 2. But Gara is broken guys, nerf her.

Edited by ChipsLight
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1 hour ago, [DE]Aidan said:

The wall’s health is determined by both your ability power strength and armor mods

Need more details please? 

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Where is this nerf coming from? People complain about her 3 for weeks and you decide to nerf her 4?

 

You can't have more than one wall at a time, but Frost can have up to 4 Snow Globes and can even stack them.

Gara's wall is affected by Duration, which was removed from Frost's Snow Globe a while back. 

Enemies can't pass through (still, they can jump/shoot over it), but they'll be able to destroy it piece by piece and get inside. With Frost's Snow Globe, enemies can get through, but at the cost of reduced speed or even complete immobilisation (with Augment). Yes, if the bubble is destroyed, it's the whole SG that disappear, but it's not hard to recast it. 

Gara's ult as a 100 energy cost at max lenght (if I remember well), but the Snow Globe cost 50.

If there are Nullifiers, Gara's wall almost completely useless, especially at max lenght, but the energy cost and casting time make it a lot less reliable than a Snow Globe.

Also, Gara has 125 armor (262 with Steel Fiber), while Frost has 300 (630 with Steel Fiber) (SG gets 500% of the armor as hp). The effect of armor on the ability's health cannot be the same, otherwise it would be useless to even bother boosting it, as it's already useless to boost it for survivability.

 

In general, it would just be a high cost Bastille-like Snowglobe with more downsides than advantages. Gara's MV was better than Frost's SG for End Game as it couldn't be damaged, but now there will be nothing left to make her as good as probably the only good Defense Frame we have. Why can't we just play with the new frames? Why do you want us to play with the same Warframes that we've been using for years instead? You've put so much effort into it and you're still working on it (audio effects are a proof), but with this modification, it would just add one more huge flaw to one of her only 2 good and reliable abilities.

First you make Frost super easy to get by moving him to Mars (4th planet in the game, lvl 8-15, instead of Ceres which was the very last Grineer map, level 30-40), then you give Frost Prime (and a lot more) to anybody for not one month, like you said at the beginning, but half a freakin year, and now that another good Defense Frame is introduced, you nerf it so Frost can remain the best Defense Frame in the game. 

Gara went straight to my top 5 warframes of all kind (First two being Oberon and Titania for personnal reasons, followed by Chroma, Mag and Gara) as soon as I got her. I never really liked Frost, since I only got him because he was mandatory for any Defense mission and nobody wanted a weak Oberon in their team, about 2 years ago. I was using a lot, but I always wished I could play something else while being a good Defense/Support/CC. I had to wait until Oberon's Rework for that, and then we got Gara, which I really enjoy using as a CC/Support Tank, but... now she gets nerfed for being "too" good? Have you even bothered using her in the Plains? Ogmas, Bolkors, Scavengers, Flameblades, Dargyns, etc. MV cannot help against those enemies, so how is it stronger than SG? It is limited in duration (about 70 sec max), so you have to recast it even in low level missions. Frost can spam SG everywhere and the bubbles can stay there for the entire mission, so how is MV better? Gara has 100 shield, 100 hp and 125 armor; Frost has 150 shield,100 hp and 300 armor, s how is she better? Energy? Gara is far too penalised from Fleeting Expertise for 3 of her abilities, while Frost can use it without any big downside except maybe for his ult of his facultative Augments. 

Just, somebody please tell me where the Vay Hek this nerf is coming from? Who decided that she was too strong and deserved a nerf so drastic it would make the Warframe as bad or even worst than the old version of another Warframe that they changed because it was bad?

There can't be any refund significant enough for such wasted potential. 

 

C'mon, you're better than this DE :/

Edited by Blade_Wolf_16
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This literally just makes vitrify a worse snowglobe.  Far worse.  Do not want, if you feel the need to nerf the skill fine, but please figure out a different way to go about it.

This plan uses mechanics from a frame with over 2x the armor Gara has, along with a way to stack and refresh his mechanic infinitely and instantly while maintaining four seperate instances of this skill simultaneously.  Being forced to drop your limited HP shield to recast it makes its use for defending objectives questionable at best while still being duration based makes the recasting absolutely mandatory.

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35 minutes ago, L0rdados said:

Nice job DE, you really know how to balance the game!

or, just maybe, they have more data than you do? just a thought.

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Reasonable, but make it scale somehow the more you stack it (like Snowglobe). Otherwise it's just a worse Snowglobe, with the added benefit of stacking infinite damage on Gara's 2, which is pretty boring. A damage cap on her 2 would be good as well as these changes.

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1 hour ago, Phatose said:

If it's health based, it shouldn't have a duration limit.  And something needs to be done about the crazy long casting time, and should probably have more health then snow globe.

Otherwise, it's simply a terrible ability.  It's her ultimate, yet it has duration limit, health limit, and is open to attacks from above, and immobilizes you for quite some time when being cast. 

How, exactly, is Gara's 4 going to be better then Frost's 3?

 

Edit: Oops, 3, not 2.

Exactly my thought

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So everybody knew this was coming. However, instead of making the ability just a crappy, weaker, and less useful frost bubble, how about adding some mechanics that are unique to the new frame? eh? like....

1) have the heath stack based on the amount of enemies it encases in glass, maybe taking numbers from their health and/or armor and adding it to the walls HP.

2) have the wall absorb the damage inflicted on it, and when it breaks, shatters just as if you shattered it with her 1 (minus the additive damage of her 1). this would prevent it from just being completely useless later on. could have it be just that section or the whole thing, and would fit with the glass theme, storing the "vibrations" of the attacks then reflecting them back when the HP cap is reached.

3) if you are going to just copy/pasta the frost mechanics, dont half-heart it, give her multiple instances of it, and remove the duration timer on the final wall. walls cast inside other walls stop and combine with the previous wall up to a certain cap.

 

Please DE, if you are going to fix the ability, dont just kill its usefulness past uranus.....

Edited by kaviji
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1 hour ago, [DE]Aidan said:

just like Frost’s Snow Globe.

If this than MV needs to be instant, stackable and not affected by duration. Also needs to be able to be castable in 4 separate areas. 

Edited by (XB1)RDeschain82

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Terrible change IMHO. At least it shouldn't be duration based now so it just stands as long as it holds, and you should be able to cast it more than once. Otherwise it's just a WAY more terrible version of snowglobe now...

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I don't normally comment on these forums, however Gara has been my most used frame since Planes launched, by a HUGE margin. So I feel I should comment on the proposed changes. Under the purposed changes by DE, my current Duration Gara Build would would not withstand these changes. Being able to create multiple bubbles without duration, Frost would become the defacto Defense Frame once again and my Gara time would likely fall.

Despite being my most played frame, I do believe that Gara needs tweaks. I'm going to give my opinion first with suggested tweaks, and I'll end with my experiences with Gara and Warframes in general.

Gara's #4 ability is overpowered due to it's immunity to breakage. Make her a CC frame?

Enemies will run at the wall endlessly, and this is very jarring to look at it reminds you these guys are AI and not clone soldiers. It's akin to breaking the navmesh in Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim and taking pot shots at the monsters running against a rock because they don't have minds of their own.

However as overpowered as an unbreakable #4 is, making it breakable without tweaks will effectively ruin what I've been using the frame for: Defense. Yes, the frame will retain 90% damage reduction from the #2 ability, however this means the vitrification (Crowd Control) will be the primary purpose of #4 and not the shield (Defending a point). I have no problem with this, except for the prohibitive energy cost of repeatedly casting it in order to vitrify new enemies. Also, new enemies will take the place of old ones quickly. I believe the solution would be to greatly decrease the casting cost and cast time of her #4.

If the purpose of #4 would be to cast it repeatedly, this would refresh everyone's #2 buff more efficiently and help overall synergy with the frame in general, placing Gara more into a Crowd Control (#4) and Support Role (#2), instead of a defense role. While I prefer Gara is a Frost replacement, I can see why perhaps the developers don't want her as one.

Gara's #3 is Under-powered and needs a scaling pass

The #3 ability for Gara is almost never used unless I'm guarding 2 excavators at the same time, in which case the #4 ability is on one and it is unguarded, the #3 ability and myself are on another. The Mirrors do not last long enough to make good crowd control, the damage of their destruction is incomparable to my weapons and for the purposes of DPS does not warrant the energy cost to cast it. It is my opinion the mirrors need more health and they need to do more damage.

My Experience Since Planes

While I do try each new frame, I have a tenancy to snap back to Rhino or Inaros and pefer tanky frames. A 57 second duration build for Shatterstorm's 90% damage reduction rendered Gara tanky enough for me, throw on a Life-Strike melee weapon and I'm even MORE happy than playing the tank frames, because I can throw up a defensive shield on objectives AND be tanky. She has without question replaced Frost for me in my Loadout, as you can see from the following picture below, the Shield Defense loadout belonged to Frost, Gara has usurped it.

As a Crowd Control based frame, I think I'd continue to play Gara, as long as you don't take her tankyness away.

rWYHY6U.png

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il y a une heure, [DE]Aidan a dit :

The time spent casting the ability as it grows will not affect the health of the wall.

That's absolutely not what this player was asking.

He meant "will the wall have X second of invulnerability during which damage taken will increases its health ?", just like rhino's armor & frost's snowglobe.

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Well the change is unfair due to Gara's wall on uneven ground no cover on top, she isn't entirely invulnerable.

The most complaints I have seen are in the subreddit , I think that might be what is actually influencing the "NERF" I say nerf because that's basically what it is given her role/abilities.

Just saying there are other frames that should maybe be looked at like the meta groups

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2 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

That's absolutely not what this player was asking.

He meant "will the wall have X second of invulnerability during which damage taken will increases its health ?", just like rhino's armor & frost's snowglobe.

Sorry, that was my misinterpretation, no, the health will not be increased by damage absorbed during casting.

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No no no, this is a terrible change. an Hp pool doesn't suppport the other mechanics around vitrify. it cannot be stacked like snowglobe, so we are stuck with the starting hp. so Vitrify now has: an HP pool that we will have to max power strength at the cost of maker her other abilities worthless, massive energy drain to max out its range, deleted by nullifiers instantly, and a duration. All you have done is put mass vitrify in the same place as discharge where it has so many negatives attached to it that it cant do it's job properly. This was not the way to go to nerf mass vitrify. Gara was already bad at dealing with corpus and corrupted, now she may only be able to deal with infested and possibly grineer. 

Edited by (PS4)Jennison99
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