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[DE]Connor

Dev Workshop: The Features of Focus 2.5

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In light of this update, I'll start with two burning issues:

  1. So, pool capacity can now be bought for any school to be used by every school - great. Is pool capacity shared for all schools though?
    For instance, if I spend 5 pool capacity for a node in Zenurik, does that mean I spent 5 pool capacity from the other schools at the same time?
  2. Convergence needs to be removed, or at the very least general Focus acquisition should be significantly reworked. At present, orbs just encourage bad behavior, like ignoring allies in need or straying from mission objectives, in favor of kill-stealing and maximizing XP for inconsistent windows.
    Scott declared that a big point of the Focus acquisition changes is to encourage players to vary strategies in Focus farming, but that won't matter so long as the "window of bonus gains" inherently favors frames with the highest nuking capability or ability to abuse stealth multipliers. Even with the diminishing return system Scott proposed, frames with poor/middling damage or heavy support focus (like Volt and Trinity) are still "wrong" choices to put Lenses in - hell, AMPS are terrible choices to put Lenses in - until the system is reworked to encourage casual play.
    • Note that in the event Focus acquisition is changed to no longer favor specific frames, I highly recommend refunding player Lenses. (Of course if no nodes are changing and costs are going to be the same, I see no need to refund points a third time if this occurs - but you may want to take a look at Naramon's Affinity bonus.)
Edited by Archwizard
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2 hours ago, OvisCaedo said:

No, this was the OTHER armor skill. This only gave 20%. The 200% operator armor one is a separate skill.

So this is a reduction for high armor frames (Valkyr, Atlas, Chroma), Equal for Frost, NIdus, and buff for all other frames. Doesn't seem huge IMO but I think overall is better.

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Well, the Unairu changes are mostly nice; but I feel that the damage reflect is still complete garbage due to enemy health/armour scaling way faster than their damage/player health to tank and reflect that damage.

Some form of DR, scaling off mods, invulnerability grace period on a cooldown or something would go a long way towards making Void Spines more useful than the poor man's Enemy Radar.

Sad about the Lightning Dash nerf too, it was one of the few active powers worth bothering with.

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@[DE]Connor What we REALLY need on top of the focus pool rework is an Focus boost. How about 5%.10%.15% for the respective lens types? I don't think we should be forced into niche situations to get focus and [DE]Rebecca had mentioned that she thought there were issues with the focus gain. What is being done to address this?

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On 12/6/2017 at 4:42 AM, [DE]Connor said:

Zenurik:
-Lightning Dash (costs 10 energy per cast)

------
Vazarin: Protective Dash (grants 5s of immunity at max, up from 2s)
Madurai: Blazing Dash (now stuns enemies instead of ragdolling)
------
So... no energy cost for these? Why tho?
No. Seriously just decrease the damage and remove the energy cost it's not that hard.
I mean this ability has more base damage than Volt's Discharge.
Like what the hell? :shocked:
 

Edited by Oranji
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10 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Guess what? Operators aren't and shouldn't be designed around being able to compete with frames in every part of the game. They need their own way of standing out, which is Sentient combat and some support abilities for general combat. I'd never want hem to be able to to regular sortie content, that just erodes mechanical uniqueness from them.

Well... Right now operators are useful only for 3 things:

1) Quickly void dash through the plains (short range only, on 500m+ range arching is a lot faster)

2) Safely revive somebody (though if his drone dies - he would have to die again to resurrect using X to revive his drone... (and I don't know why after so many years DE didn't fixed that damn thing - why there is no way to make the drone immortal or make it more tanky and somehow revive it unlimited amount of times per mission?...)

3) Eidolon hunting... (though what you get doing eidolon hunting is useful only for eidolon hunting)

Surely it's better than previous veruin of focus, but.... That's it. 

Edited by RadYogh

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12 minutes ago, 3thereal said:

So this is a reduction for high armor frames (Valkyr, Atlas, Chroma), Equal for Frost, NIdus, and buff for all other frames. Doesn't seem huge IMO but I think overall is better.

The sad thing is that armor is almost absolutely useless on no armor and low armor frames.

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3 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Zenurik:
-Void Singularity (doubled pull speed)
-Lightning Dash (costs 10 energy per cast)

 

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2 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Unairu:
-Void Spines (reflects 100% damage at max, up from 25%)
-Stone Skin (adds flat armor, 60 for both warframe and operator at max)

The current 25% damage reflect takes 17 hits to kill a level 20 Butcher. It'll take roughly 4-5 hits post-buff to kill the Butcher, but that will still be really weak compared to the effects of other schools.

For Void Spines to deal worthwhile damage, I'd suggest changing it to finisher damage so that it can bypass armor instead of being thwarted by enemy armor scaling, and increase the damage reflection to ~200%.

Stone Skin adding a flat armor value is definitely an improvement over the current 20% increase, but 60 is rather low. I'd suggest ~150 if it factors into mods (e.g. Steel Fiber), or ~250 if it is applied after mods. This would give a Unairu a use for squishier frames, while still being relevant for those with high base armor.

 

The cost changes look great!

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2 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Zenurik:
-Void Singularity (doubled pull speed)
-Lightning Dash (costs 10 energy per cast)

So... Zenurik users can't void dash as far as the rest of us? RIP

2 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Vazarin:
-Guardian Blast (grants 160 shields at max, up from 100)

Shields < Invulnerability. It comes from the same energy pool.

2 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Unairu:
-Void Spines (reflects 100% damage at max, up from 25%)

Unless this is calculated differently I'm not sure the difference. Yes the numbers are not the same, but even chroma with a 8x damage multiplier still hits 1s (likely because the damage is reduced twice: your armor then the enemies)

 

 

Lemme just leave this here:

 

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1 minute ago, Synpai said:

So... Zenurik users can't void dash as far as the rest of us? RIP

Yes exactly, it need an tweak, to have this ability ON but be able to use Void dash without extra effect and energy cost, and having extra effect with more energy cost at the same time.

Here is link to reddit:

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While you're at it can you make VOID damage significant? The bullet attractor effect is not bad... but lets face it, it's pretty much useless. I was thinking something like... Idk... Void Damage not affected by shields, armor and resistances... cause let's face it, Operator are simply too weak on end-game because of those three things scales ridicolously high.

It would be amazing if Void Damage added something useful to the game and makes us wanna use operators for combat.

Edited by Lokime
notice me DE sepnai
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Okay so I'm just gonna go over what I personally feel like each tree's Passives should be, as well as Waybounds. I'm not going to get into extraneous operator abilities like ball lightning or whatever, just the CORE aspects of each tree. Look at me, said I wouldn't do it and I'm doing it anyway. I'll only go into numbers if I have an idea for them already, otherwise I'll leave it vague.

Here's my mentality on Waybounds. They shouldn't be 'Grind to make the Operator not crap', they should be 'Permanent Upgrades'. Something you take away from the tree that makes you more powerful than you were before, as both an operator AND a warframe. They don't need to be flashy, they just need to be GOOD. Also, remove the hecking need to hop into and out of operator mode to activate passives, it's annoying.

 

Let's start off with Zenurik, since it's the elephant in the room. This is the school entirely about Powers. Getting the most out of them.

Passive 1: The lynchpin of the entire tree needs to be widely applicable. Something everyone who focuses on powers will use and enjoy having. The answer? Energy Efficiency. Could probably make it apply to Melee Channeling as well, since people who want to use powers the most are the ones who want to burn energy on melee attacks the least.

Passive 2: The second passive can be a bit more situational than the first, since you don't need it for everything else, but it should still be kinda broad. I'm not entirely sure on what I'd make this one. Something simple like Power Strength? Useful, but a smidge uninteresting. You could make it an energy-shield conversion ability like Brief Respite, but stacking up to an amount dictated by the ability's level rather than 'as long as you don't have overshields'. Also, the shield amount being UNMODIFIED by efficiency. You cut that ult down to 25 energy, you're still getting 100 energy worth of shields. Worth thinking on.

Waybound 1: Warframes regenerate energy at a rate of 1/s at maximum rank. Operators increase their energy recharge rate.

Waybound 2: Warframe and Operator maximum energy increased.

The actual positioning of these two doesn't really matter, which you get first doesn't really impact things like the Passives do.

 

And so that's Zenurik. Widely applicable waybounds that everyone will enjoy having and get benefit from once they're unlocked. Passives still provide benefit for people who want to use powers heavily. No arbitrary Operatorhopping. No reliance on energy orbs.

I'll expound on my thoughts for other trees at some point, but they'll follow the same general notes. Waybounds should benefit both Warframe and Operator, but the passive abilities should also provide incentive to remain in the tree afterwards.

Gimmie yo thoughts. Especially you, Connor. It'd be nice to know I'm not just flailing at the wind here.

 

EDIT: And here's a thought. Rather than stapling all these extra operator abilities onto things like void blast and void dash, why not make them actual abilities bound to 1-4? That way people could CHOOSE when to use them. Make the lightning just an ability you can activate whenever and use rather than stapling it onto void dashing and making them cost more energy even when someone just wants to get somewhere.

Edited by DeltaPangaea
Further thought on Operator Abilities
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3 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

On the topic of Focus acquisition, some of you may also remember the daily cap removal mentioned in a recent devstream - we are still working out how best to implement this change, so it will not be included in this update. We appreciate your patience in this matter.

Daily cap removal means nothing if convergence orbs work like they currently do. All cap removal would do is encourage even harder no-life adaro farming.

I was genuinely mostly excited about scott's idea of missions you haven't been spamming rewarding you more than just cycling hydon 25/8.

I consider focus acquisition the rather larger of the issues in play overshadowing everything else.

However, cost reduction is helpful and welcome.

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27 minutes ago, RadYogh said:

Well... Right now operators are useful only for 3 things:

1) Quickly void dash through the plains (short range only, on 500m+ range arching is a lot faster)

2) Safely revive somebody (though if his drone dies - he would have to die again to resurrect using X to revive his drone... (and I don't know why after so many years DE didn't fixed that damn thing - why there is no way to make the drone immortal or make it more tanky and somehow revive it unlimited amount of times per mission?...)

3) Eidolon hunting... (though what you get doing eidolon hunting is useful only for eidolon hunting)

Surely it's better than previous veruin of focus, but.... That's it. 

And they will become more useful the more time DE spends on developing the Sentient threat, which they already announced they will. You want to go to a Sentient outpost without Operator Amps, Perks and Powers? I'm not usually one to wave around the "it's a F2P game" excuse, but that business model does come with certain limitations. One of that is that the dev cannot spent too many resources on developing new parts of the game, so they have to prioritize and introduce one part after another. What would you rather have first? A developed Sentient faction with outposts, invasions and bosses that are so annoying to beat without what Operators bring that DE is pushed to nerfing the content, or a way for us to fight said threat in a year or two while the tools that have been provided to us remain only tangentially important for the time being?

I'm not defending DE's lack of imagination when it comes to giving players endgame mechanics to hold us over for years, ones that don't revolve around one shotting bullet sponges, microscopic drop chances and year-long dull grind fests. I'm just looking at what they're capable of doing in this particular scenario. Do I wish they fleshed out the world to a point where faction power balances become highly influencable by player action, so we can actually feel like each and every mission we play does have a tangible effect on the game world first? Sure. But that's not what DE decided to do, since such deep mechanical changes can't be marketed well on Time Square. That's also the reason why they stopped caring about improving stealth play directly years ago, even though it was their full intention to for the longest time.

3 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

I was genuinely mostly excited about scott's idea of missions you haven't been spamming rewarding you more than just cycling hydon 25/8.

Player specific missions is something that should be way more systemic to the game than it currently is. It's the best way to destroy leveling hot spots, or farming hotspots altogether, especially if the game code adjusts the bonus effects for that mission by how popular it is amongst players overall, and increases the resource/affinity boosts of missions players deem laborious, uninteresting or annoying. I've been waiting for something like that for god knows how long, as it would really upend the meta of the game completely and permanently, since the game would always react to players amassing at a certain node by reducing its rewards while doing the opposite to direct the player flow away from your Xinis, Kappas Dracos, Adaros, Hydrons and so on.

Edited by AuroraSonicBoom
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1 minute ago, MarrikBroom said:

Daily cap removal means nothing if convergence orbs work like they currently do. All cap removal would do is encourage even harder no-life adaro farming.

Daily cap removal could make a point in staying longer on endless missions. Right now there is almost no point in doing a defense longer than like 20-40 waves, same with survival and Interception...

And farming focus on adaro is a very-very sad way to farm it. :( IMHO.... 

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1 minute ago, RadYogh said:

Daily cap removal could make a point in staying longer on endless missions. Right now there is almost no point in doing a defense longer than like 20-40 waves, same with survival and Interception...

And farming focus on adaro is a very-very sad way to farm it. :( IMHO.... 

Yep... last night fissure survival.. earnt 200k focus... couldnt earn any more for the day.. felt kind of pointless staying but atleast i was cracking open some vaulted relics.

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No change to the speed at which we earn focus? Okay still not farming got it. I'm starting to think you don't like that the biggest problems are the biggest problems and are trying to ignore them. Getting focus sucks. The actual act of getting the points is bad. You're going to have to drop costs way lower if you want focus to be a system worth working your way through. I appreciate the fact that I'll probably be way closer to a maxed Zenurik, but I'm still not farming, and the biggest problem with Focus 2.0 has still not been solved.

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What will happen to Eidolan Shards used to unbind previous nodes?

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So if lenses aren't being refunded does that mean that the lenses on our warframes just go away and we have to get and rebuild them all from scratch??                                                                
Also me personally I don't mind the idea of convergence orbs like yeah they might make you pause in whatever you're doing in order to go get them or if you have to not kill enemies in order to wait for the orb to spawn like me personally unless I go onto a solo mission specifically for focus farming I never really think too much about the orbs, I just grab them whenever it's convenient or just because why not get a bit of focus while I'm doing whatever mission I'm on. Like I like the idea of the convergence orbs just cause like how else would we have a way of knowing when we start gaining focus in missions also I like how I can choose to either get the orb or just leave it be honestly. 

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Would be nice if Naramons affinity node was changed to something else. Its a decent node for leveling stuff, but once you've maxed everything, it becomes a dead node. 

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1 minute ago, LjMjollnir said:

Yep... last night fissure survival.. earnt 200k focus... couldnt earn any more for the day.. felt kind of pointless staying but atleast i was cracking open some vaulted relics.

The fun thing is that you can cap your focus in 30-40 waves of T4 defense (with affinity booster and without a cat).

About the same with T3 defense, may take 5-10 waves more.

You also usualy can get about 50-100k focus from sortie, if there is eximus "endless" mission -- maybe even all 250k. It is also usualy not very hard to find ppl in recruiting chat who would want to do 30 or more waves of defense on some fissure or something similar with different type of endless fissure. Also you can get some focus from farming 5th bounty (btw, mesa can do stealth kills on grineer drop ships).

But for most of these you need to have realy many lenses to put them in almost all your stuff. And if there are no unified lenses you will end up with wasting damn lenses for nothing when switching focus trees. That SUCKS.

...And there is no fast way to get eidolon lenses... so you'll have to buy greater lenses.... and then buy them again to build eidolon lenses and then destroy first lenses that you bought to replace them with eidolon ones.... because there is no way to extract lenses or upgrade lenses that are already installed. And that sucks too.

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Only thing i don't really like with the redesign ( besides the lack of a respec with the lenses but okay ) is that unairu gets a small nerf and buff at the same time with the armor increase changing to a flat number.

If we go with a squishy frame like say banshee with 15 armor, the flat 60 will be far more usable then the 20% armor for sure. With the percentage thing, banshee would go up to 18 points of armor where-as the flat one would increase it to 75 armor. No complaints there.

The part i have a complaint with is when it comes to some of the more tanky frames as the armor buff seems to be more aimed at the squishier frames instead of the tanky frames.

Lets take valkyr prime for an example as she has the most armor without adding in buffs and what not more with the 700 base armor.

If we give her that same 20% extra armor, it would increase to 840 which is 80 more then the flat out 60 extra armor the change will give. One of the reasons the percentage one worked so well was because unairu was used mainly to increase the tanks to even higher tanking ranks where-as squishy frames had no business with unairu anyways.

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>lenses will not be refunded

I can't say I'm not disappointed. :/

I think there needs to be a way to remove lenses. Even if you decide to, say cap regular lenses at 2 max "recycles," greater at 3 "recycles," and Eidolon at 4. The Arcane distiller, while not a great system, served as an okay-ish way to remove Arcanes. Maybe give the Quills "Lens Distillers"?

I'm glad to see Focus 2.5 is being worked on, however. Reducing pool costs and ability cost is a definite step in the right direction. Here's to hoping convergence orbs go away, 1 million focus to Waybound gets dropped, Unairu buffs, and the making of every node a Waybound!

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