Gara Mass Vitrify feedback

[Cincirion]

3 minutes ago, Slifar said:

With all due respect, I have literally never seen a Frost have any problems keeping a bubble on a spot that he really wanted to keep a bubble on, even in my extended-run Void endless missions (30+ minute survivals, etc.)

Heck I actually find Frosts a bit annoying sometimes because they have a habit of putting up TOO MANY bubbles and then I find myself having a hard time actually shooting the dudes.

Just today I had my Gara (pre-nerf) and a Frost in the first sortie, the forst had absolutely nothing to worry about but place the bubble on the escort. This talk about Frost's globe being vulnerable is just ridiculous, it's called the scrub frame for a reason.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

It does, but at the end of the day that means nothing to it. You spam it or it dies. Period. In seconds equivalent to the seconds it recieved fire.

Her kit has other things going for her, damage and Cc, even frickin refreshs... that's something frost doesn't.

You're talking like Frost doesn't have things going for him either. Things like far superior CC and armor removal compared to Gara. And frankly if DE was nerfing her, they should have nerfed the 40k/sec DPS mode's scaling, not the wall.  The wall gave her a relatively unique role in this game - a role that only Frost effectively fills, but even so Frost was better for some things (excav and intercept) and Gara was better for other things (def/mobile def/sortie def.)

Now Gara no longer fills that role. She can't effectively defend any more, but this was one of the things I liked most about her. Like, I never actually use blender mode because it's finnicky and not particularly quick compared to my weapons. I loved how she was a blend of Rhino and Frost. Now she's like a bargain bin Frost, so I might as well just use Frost for all my defense tasks and Rhino for all my other tasks, like I used to.

But much more importantly, the whole point is that the Globe can be viable in high level play. Yes you have just four seconds + however long it took fire during those four seconds to play with, but the wall doesn't have that. It has however long its health lasts under enemy fire... Which is about two to three seconds. If you're lucky. And remember that you can spam bubbles a hek of a lot easier than you can walls, since bubbles stack and deploy instantly.

13 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

With some monster Cc maybe. Not if it actually recieves fire, what's definitly the thing for debate here.

Frost has monster CC. Avalanche is one of the best CC skills in the game when built for duration. Gara doesn't have monster CC. Gara's CC is, in fact, pretty bad all told.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Yinkuji]

It's counter intuitive for Mass Vitrify to scale with armor. She's a squishy caster that has low base armor and depends on Splinter Storm and Mass Vitrify to survive. Despite this, DE thought it would be a great idea for Mass Vitrify to scale with armor. As usual, it's like DE doesn't even play their own game.

RIP Gara 2017-2017. I'm sure DE will take a second look at her again 6+ months later. See Limbo, Oberon, etc. DE is always quick to nerf, but slow to buff when something is clearly underpowered.

 

[MechaTails]

Players want to force their playstyles on warframes that aren't suited for it (I try to do it all the time). I think originally DE intended to let players do this to a certain extent through the use of the modding system, but somewhere along the way the idea evaporated. Maybe they saw what an unwieldly beast this game would become, so to simplify things we got the hum-drum modding we have today.

For example, maybe you could use a bunch of +Status% mods to turn a Dera into a Gas machine gun, or switch its primary damage to something different. Maybe you could equip an Embolist with Cold damage and now it could freeze and shatter enemies. In other words, make it do things it wasn't intended for because you like how it looks and you want to use it, dammit. Unfortunately, the mods we have simply boost a weapon's/warframe's innate strengths, they don't let us make significant alterations. Weak, awkward things stay weak and awkward. (unless you get a +1000% Damage riven lol)

DE designs the warframes with a certain playstyle in mind, and refining them is an ongoing process. It can be frustrating for players who sunk a bunch of time into a warframe which now doesn't play the way they like. It's disappointing when a warframe becomes a "weaker clone" of something else. It's understandable. It annoys the hell out of me when they're crybabies about it, but I get it.

TLDR: Try not to make enemies so soon, this game is really boring when you have no one to talk to.

If I take your word for it, it sounds like you found a great way to use that warframe. Apparently, that warframe used to be good at something else, and now it's not, so there's backlash. I like the OP's attitude, they're going to try a new playstyle.

[PsiWarp]

The glass wall is now way too fragile. Each section is barely able to hold back 2-4 attacks from a single high level enemy, and that's with 200%+ Ability Strength and Steel Fiber... sure they draw aggro. like Spectrorage, but now the wall's durability is just as low as mirrors.

Mass Vitrify needs better scaling mechanics to perform its function as a barrier. Flat hitpoints and mods can't make the durability high enough for endurance runs, which is why DE implemented the invulnerability period + damage-to-health conversion + frame armor-to-health conversion for Snow Globe, then Iron Skin, then Tectonics and Warding Halo... it didn't seem to cross their minds to create a form of this feature in Mass Vitrify. The past lesson learned now forgotten?

But even if we get a version of this in the next builds, don't just copy-paste the mechanic, look at how the Warframe functions. Gara has average armor, it's a dump stat really since she relies on abilities for survivability. Speccing into shields and health is actually more beneficial due to Splinter Storm's damage reduction. Remember Atlas? His Rumblers got a scaling buff after release, and it's possible to use different stats to buff up abilities. It would be good to try this with Gara since a wall with complete invulnerability on a timer is no-go anymore.

So, some suggestions:

• Tweak the wall section base hitpoints, based on testing the below changes.
  • Glass wall section hitpoints now scale with Ability Strength, Shield, and Health mods.
  • Wall sections have a high innate armor value, affected by Ability Strength and Armor mods.
• Enemy damage prevented by Gara while she is invulnerable (molten glass expansion phase) is added to all wall sections as additional hitpoints, once she stops channeling.
• Enemies crystallized by Mass Vitrify add additional hitpoints (flat number or based on percentage of enemy max. health) to wall sections that touched them during expansion.
• Wall section explosions causes a forced impact proc/stagger against enemies in the explosion radius.

Gara gets 1 wall that disappears if recast, so it should be resilient enough to withstand high level enemy onslaught from all sides. Not just for the blink of an eye or mere seconds, but long enough to matter.

[Ashendal]

2 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

With some monster Cc maybe. Not if it actually recieves fire, what's definitly the thing for debate here.

Do you actually understand how the bubble works or are you just tossing it whenever and wherever you feel like and having it shredded because you aren't doing what's intended to actually make it a decent defensive tool.

[timur_the_lame]

Just when I thought DE was worthy of praise for releasing a new frame with great synergy on all of her abilities that was genuinely fun to play and a nice addition to the game.

 

And then they nerf her "ultimate" ability so hard that it is now effectively useless and turned her into yet another warframe where only two abilities ever get used.  Great job DE, you always manage to F*** things up.

edit: changed "ing" to "ed"

Edited December 8, 2017 by timur_the_lame

[GrimmMonsoon.ttv]

I’m honestly so @(*()$ angry at this. Gara quickly became my favourite Warframe. I’d put four Forma in her for MV and now it’s useless. 

[Cy-Bear]

You have ruined Gara.. Will not play her again.. Im just glad I didn't waste Plat on her... Your choice to F*** her up was a bad one. Id beg you to changer her back but you wont.. Im very disappointed in all of you. She WAS a fun frame, not anymore. I wasted forma on her and all. I should get my forma refunded.. hell you can take Gara off me and replace my forma and my potato please. I wont be using her anymore!

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Galvertron

[Burned-Toast]

Gara's 4 would be much better if the base health was around 8-10k and then damage reduction was affected by an ability modifier and not something random like armor

[ACULonSeer]

5 hours ago, L3thargy said:

Hey there, just tested Garas "new" 4 in the daily sortie and gotta say it was weak.

I used a strength/armor build and optimised for a strong defense. 

In --->SORTIE 3<--- the parts last for about 2 seconds until some bombard or heavy gunner collects glass shards as souvenirs. The explosion dmg was not good at sortie 1 - 3.

Either we think of Garas 4 as a pure CC ability now which immobilizes foes around u or we need to look at numbers again. As of now her 4 doesnt stand a chance as a defensive tool in higher tier content.

Im not motivated to build around strentgh & armor since for me the results are underwhelming.. would rather use a balanced build that utilizes mass vitrify as CC.

 

 

The wall broke in sortie 3? i dont see a problem here. 

[GrimmMonsoon.ttv]

4 minutes ago, ACULonSeer said:

The wall broke in sortie 3? i dont see a problem here. 

The problem is, is that before I could have a wall surrounding the terminal for 67 seconds, and now it lasts maybe three seconds. 

[ACULonSeer]

1 minute ago, GrimMonsoon said:

The problem is, is that before I could have a wall surrounding the terminal for 67 seconds, and now it lasts maybe three seconds. 

I see. Considering how insane sortie enemies are, being able to defend it that long is a bit over-the-top. However, this change is a terrible way to rebalance it.

 

[allibound]

The problem is the mods and stats needed to buff the wall are counter-intuitive to the rest of gara.  The wall itself, even if you use mods only the wall can benefit from, breaks in meer seconds to enemies at a level lower than the point where they are actually dangerous to the warframes and defense objects.  The wall is literally a waste of time and energy for defense.  Its only purpose now is to refresh and stack damage on splinter storm.  This change is the opposite of dynamic and varied game play.

The wall needs vastly more health and scalar qualities that aren't tied to armor.  Failing that I want my forma, potato, and exilus back because Gara is the lamest of the 1 trick ponies now.

[ADirtyMonk]

Isnt it hilarious that the glorious game design team with all their "internal testing" couldnt figure out what it took players under 30 minutes after the update dropped to figure out? Nevermind all the people screaming at them for a week and a half since the initial "Vitrify is now HP based" announcement that it would screw Gara for any endgame content?

[GrimmMonsoon.ttv]

21 minutes ago, ACULonSeer said:

I see. Considering how insane sortie enemies are, being able to defend it that long is a bit over-the-top. However, this change is a terrible way to rebalance it.

 

I completely disagree. MV had its flaws that could have benefitted from fixing, but instead they made it even worse. 

The synergy between her second and fourth is now completely redundant. And there is no balance. Prior to this Gara was perfectly balanced, if maybe a tad OP. 

[LEGION346]

After the update and after checking MV base stats I wonder if DE really tested it. It has less base hp than Frost's globe ( And Gara's MV is a FREAKING ULTIMATE ), has worse scaling and no invurnerability. While Frost bubble has those things. People said it many times in thread about Gara. ARMOR MODS ON GARA ARE WORTHLESS. Frost can use them because his base armor is high enough. In Gara's case, armor is a joke. So player is left with only power strenght. 180%~ gives your MV 4000 HP. Meanwhile Frost bubble can have 7k with 100% power and Armor Agility + Steel Fiber. And player can stack this 7k up to 4 times. 28k bubble vs 4k Gara section. Without taking into consideration health absorbed by enemy fire. Gara's MV needs serious buffs and tweaks now.

 

1. Remove scaling from armor. It is pointless.

2. Increase scaling from power strenght by 2 or 3 times. Maybe then it will be good.

3. Increase base health a lot. Maybe up to 7500.

 

Gara's MV IS AN ULTIMATE. IT SHOULD BE POWERFUL.

As it stands now, it is completely worthless and will be just used for buffing 2.

Oh, and her 3 is STILL USELESS.

For now Gara has 1 amazing ability ( Her 2), 1 decent ability and 2 worthless abilities. I wonder how Mag and others will welcome her on trash bench.

End of semi rant.

Edited December 8, 2017 by LEGION346

[Lancars]

I made a thread in Art, Animation, & UI because i'm more disappointed in how the glass looks and the fact you have no visual indication of when its going to break. I know it will be tweaked stats wise but it needs a better visual.

All of the other powers look amazing but Mass Vitrify looks visually underwhelming.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Lancars

[DiabolusUrsus]

Guys, gals, all... take a few deep breaths and relax.

Nerfs aren't the end of the world, and if you can show that something was nerfed too hard... it will be buffed. Gara especially has better odds of attention, seeing as she's new. Post screens, videos, builds, etc.

Don't waste your time squabbling with the occasional tool who insists that the only reasonable solution to a problem is to ignore it and go focus on things that aren't broken.

[Firetrucksrule]

2 hours ago, ACULonSeer said:

I see. Considering how insane sortie enemies are, being able to defend it that long is a bit over-the-top. However, this change is a terrible way to rebalance it.

 

Sortie enemies aren't insane, sortie enemies are hardly even moderate difficulty. Take a look at the leaderboards for nodes like MOT. Volt, Frost, Limbo, hell even Atlas makes for a better defender at this point for early middle or late game. Nobody running long endurance runs is all of a sudden not going to be able to scale into late game because of this change, destroying MV achieved absolutely nothing other than taking one of our tools off the table.

[Bloodgahrm]

Gara went from being literally the best frame in the game, to being nothing special at all. Gara quickly became my favorite warframe and honestly for someone like me who switches what I use basically every mission, I could have played Gara forever. Now she's just another Warframe. I told several of my friends who have never played this game to come get into it because of how much fun I was having with Gara and this nerf literally makes me not want to play Warframe ever again. Its not even that they gave Mass Vitrify health, honestly it was strong. My build was a range build, Now i feel like i wasted 4 forma. The build does not work for anything other than survival anymore. 3000 health is what the shield has. 3000 health...The damn thing breaks before I finish casting it, its not even worth the energy it takes to cast it. I put 4 forma into this Warframe and now in order to make a "useful" build for her i would have to put 2 or 3 more. I feel like i want a refunt, but at the same time whats the point cause I'm literally not going to be playing this game anymore, there's no point, they take away EVERYthing that is fun, what do they leave us with? A Warframe that has almost a 100% disapproval rate Limbo, I have never heard of someone in this game enjoying him, I also until today had never heard a complaint about Gara. So DE in their infinite wisdom RUIN something the community was in love with and refuse to change something they hate. Limbo is the troll Warframe and he is hyper frustrating to play with, yet they refuse to change him because DE are just trolls. They ruin everything that we love and care about and leave the S#&amp;&#036; we hate. I was looking forward to playing today when i got home from work, and now after seeing what they did to this game and thinking about what that means for the future I ask, whats the point? All that is going to happen is they will make something else enjoyable just to take it away. I've said it before and I'll say it again, DE does not care about its players, only their pocketbook. Even if they revert the change, which they wont, I don't think I am going to bother playing Warframe anymore...after seeing and experiencing how they treat their player base...I am just not willing to be treated like that anymore. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Bloodgahrm44
changed because to before

[Borg1611]

I posted some feedback in the update thread but I'll re-post it here since that's a lot of pages of feedback on a lot of different things and it feels like it belongs in the warframe feedback section more anyway:

The wall is crap as an actual wall vs higher level targets now, but lives potentially a long time against lower level targets. You can still use it to buff your 2 or as a CC.

You screwed up her stat priorities. So now I want more strength if I want more wall health? Great, so now I have to give up duration or efficiency if I want that. You didn't make casting the wall cheaper even though you completely gutted its usefulness as an actual wall, so I don't really want to play a low efficiency Gara. When I drop to lower duration on Splinter Storm I end up needing to rebuff that twice as often as I had to before with a high duration build (on myself and on my teammates if in a group). 

You can stick to a high duration build and just accept that both her 3 and 4 are lackluster with that build (outside of using the 4 to scale damage or as a CC/debuff). Then you at least have your high duration 2 and can just run around killing things by walking past them and not have to worry about it falling off if you're not frequently re-casting her 4. That feels odd though as half the reason you used to stack duration was for her 4.

You could potentially do a high range build on her, accept that her 4 is trash as a wall now and use it as a CC/debuff as well as a source of damage for her 2. This requires gutting duration or efficiency again as you have to get your power strength back up to 130% to cap your 2's DR after you take a huge power strength hit by using overextended. You could do this build with 130% efficiency, but it would require a lot of energy now that your duration sucks. If you go higher efficiency, that destroys your duration even further, but might be worth it to get the costs down? But then your 3, which becomes more useful with a lot of range due to the fact that you get a lot more mirrors up with a lot of range, doesn't stay up that long because that is still duration based even though your other health based ability (your 4) now has no duration. I think this is potentially a fun build, though I'd like to see some QoL changes for her 2 and 3 so they don't feel as bad with less duration. 

Suggestions:

Remove the duration on her 3 and make it simply health based. This would be consistent with her 4 changes and make things like a high range build feel better as you could simply keep it up for as long as half your numerous mirrors survived. The number on the icon can now show the number of mirrors alive, just as her 4 now shows the number of living sections of the wall. 

Maybe give her 4 a brief invulnerability period after it forms like snowglobes and iron skin so that its health can be useful at higher levels. You gave those types of abilities that period for a reason. The same logic should apply here.  An alternative way to give it better scaling that might be more thematic for Gara would be to add the health of any enemy you vitrify to the health of the wall sections when they form. 

Consider lowering the cost of the wall now that it's not invincible for a duration.

I'd make the wall shatter hit things on both sides. This makes it less awkward to use when scaling her 2 but also makes more sense now that our wall will have holes in it and enemies may be entering our wall before it goes down. This will let us make use of the walls shatter damage more easily on ourselves as well as the enemies that were inside when we cast it and on those enemies that come inside the walls after they poke holes in it. 

Since we may now be more inclined to use lower duration builds, make her 2 less annoying with lower duration in some way. Maybe take the 2 refresh mechanic from casting her 4 and also add the same mechanic to whenever damage is added to her 2 via her 3 or 4. So every time a wall section shatters and you're near it, or you break her 4 or her 3 collapses in on you (or anyone else affected by your 2) the duration is again refreshed (or perhaps add X seconds so you can build up time past the base duration?). That may also make her 3 more useful as well. You could also make killing vitrified enemies add more time to shatter storms in a certain range around them (the idea being you're shattering them and absorbing their glass or something).

Just to expand on what I wrote in that thread, even though it was already long:

I really feel her main issue now is she wants some of every stat for different abilities.  They may think that creates some kind of interesting choices, but it doesn't. It just makes modding her feel clunky and like you're not quite getting enough of her abilities to where they need to be. Duration used to feel good on her because it worked well with her 2 and 4. We also didn't need a lot of strength because it wasn't that useful past 130%. Now that strength is more valuable, why not do the reverse and make duration less valuable all around? I think with dropping duration on the wall we should just be consistent and reduce her need for duration entirely so she can make more meaningful choices between strength, range, efficiency and then potentially leave room for things like armor, other mods (that aren't about ability stats) and future augments.

If we also remove the duration on her 3 (which isn't really needed since the mirrors have limited health) and add a new mechanic for stacking splinter storm duration, we could ditch duration on her and build her in a way that doesn't feel like it's stretched so thin because you just can't get enough of what you need in all 4 ability categories before even looking at any other kinds of mods. For example, if we expand on my last suggestion above and make it so all different kinds of glass shattering from her 3 and 4 and killing vitrified enemies add time into shatter storms in range of the shatters/explosions (not sure one exact numbers, maybe add 1 seconds for a vitrified enemy being shattered, 5 seconds for a 3 collapse or a bit more for a 4 shatter?) and had it stack to say 60-90 seconds maximum or something, she would now be able to ditch duration in her builds and be encouraged to use a more active playstyle to keep her splinter storms rolling (and also have synergy with her 3 instead of just her 4).

They could also just go with refreshes  on a 3 or 4 collapse/shatter instead of adding time to the timer if that was too complicated and then hopefully also throw in a baseline duration buff so you have more time when there's not a lot of action or are traveling. 

TLDR: Her wall is no longer useful as a wall at higher levels (still useful for scaling her 2 and as a CC). Now that duration is less useful for her 4, modding her feels awkward since the stats you want for different abilities no longer match up as well. Suggestions above include suggestions on changing her so that she no longer needs duration for any abilities (though it would still scale the starting duration of her 2 if that's all you cared about) and could then focus on making more interesting choices between strength, range and efficiency with potential room for other non-ability related mods and future augments. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Borg1611

[Zarcxon]

Her wall Breaks way too fast in high end content so she will not be a frame i choose for sorties, and her 2 and 4 require different builds now instead of the synergy they had when it came to making a build, i hate to say this but gara is now a frame i will seldom use, i say we buff the walls health a lot like 50-100% more. as of now gara is like zephyr to me, unused and unloved

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

So far the gara changes really makes the wall as useless as spectrorage, whose problem was that the mirrors wouldn't last but a few seconds in mid lvl content aka making that ability unworthy....now the wall shares the same fate...

Consider adding some dmg reduction for more survability, without invulnerability periods where it can absorb dmg to boost its health, or any major forms of BIG multipliers and i mean big, the scaling health based on armor & strenght is simply an epic fail....

Either the wall sections are going to get 75%+ dmg reduction or inherit a multiplier in the thousands with the strenght/armor bonuses or it's another spectrorage fail when it comes to the health portion of the wall...

Spectrorage mirrors should have a second look at as well while you're still focused on tweaking and improving on MV's changes...

Edited December 8, 2017 by arm4geddon-117

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb Cpl_Facehugger:

 

Except it disables status, what effectively kills half of the meta weapons if used, what usually results in frosts Cc prolonging games, rather then doing his job. Avalances range starts at 15m what makes things even worse. Garas meta had the same effect.

Played and still playing with pre-balance gara, took us solid 20 minutes to finish todays sortie 1 defense just today...

Edited December 8, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108