Gara Mass Vitrify feedback

[Raspberry]

I think Spectrorage should be invincible but have a duration. Make it function much like Octavia's Mallet with minor differences:

1. Only affects/attracts enemies already inside the mirrors, enemies outside will just ignore it/walk around it

2. Enemies inside the mirrors will attack the mirrors and have their own damage reflected back with a multiplier

3. Implode after duration expires, damaging only the enemies inside the mirrors

Advantage against Mallet: implosion causes damage (might even come with a knockdown or slash proc, whatever the devs see fit), is a physical obstacle

Disadvantage against Mallet: limited number of victims, Nullifiers immune to Spectrorage (Mallets can kill Nullifiers because it's a small grenade in the middle of the affected area)

Edited December 8, 2017 by Raspberri

[Ameijin-Grey]

It's kind of amazing. People who don't know any better about Warframe likely went and complained about Gara prior. Now they think it's "not a big deal" when her shield is getting torn open by lv60+ mobs. It's not a big deal when you run nothing but low tier farm frame missions for like 15 waves or 20-minute survivals. She can't hang with Frost anymore. 

Please don't scale Warframes to low tier missions. They'll end up like Titania, Atlas, Zephyr and Valkyr. 

[L3thargy]

Here's the thing for me personally:

For "high lvl" content where I really want and need that wall (Sorties, Bounty 5) Mass Vitrify doesnt live long enough.

For "low mid lvl" content where I dont care about defense, because anything dies pretty much instantly, it offers a decent defensive tool.

Mass Vitrify is good at a lvl range where its not needed and almost useless in content where it is needed.

Sure the CC is still nice, just looking at the "wall" mechanic here.

Btw. this is a feedback thread about her recent Mass Vitrify rework.. this is no gameplay discussion, this is no "nerf everyone else!!111" corner. Please keep it a little constructive.

[minidelight]

I just tested mass vitrify after the changes, and its @(*()$ worthless now, with almost 200% power strength the wall is destroyed in seconds against lv 100 enemies, thats sortie 3 lv enemies.....what a bad joke, someone clearly doesnt have a  clue about gameplay balancing,  the power went from  beeing overpowered to trash tier, well done 

Edited December 8, 2017 by minidelight

[Darkuhn]

In my opinion the change isn't that bad, as you can use MV to reapply Splinter Storm on all Targets in range. 

And it hard cc's all enemys in the affected area. They stop moving an take more damage. As the cc part no longer is dependent on the Wall the ability can be used as a long lasting hard cc with dmg boost to a large area.

If you couple that with the synergy of MV and Splinter Storm you can provide a permanent 90% DR, 70% DMG Buff and Crazy AOE for the whole Party. 

Also you can brake the wall for extra AOE DMG in a 21 meter area around the Wall (with my setup around 40k-60k against any not heavily armored Enemy) which shreds through Infested and Corpus at any level.

As many said the wall isn't really suited to provide defense against any decent enemy BUT the CC/DMG boost is crazy. 

As I use MV mostly to keep Splinter Storm going I don't really feel any difference other than the better CC to before the change. 

[Cincirion]

4 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

In my opinion the change isn't that bad, as you can use MV to reapply Splinter Storm on all Targets in range. 

And it hard cc's all enemys in the affected area. They stop moving an take more damage. As the cc part no longer is dependent on the Wall the ability can be used as a long lasting hard cc with dmg boost to a large area.

If you couple that with the synergy of MV and Splinter Storm you can provide a permanent 90% DR, 70% DMG Buff and Crazy AOE for the whole Party. 

Also you can brake the wall for extra AOE DMG in a 21 meter area around the Wall (with my setup around 40k-60k against any not heavily armored Enemy) which shreds through Infested and Corpus at any level.

As many said the wall isn't really suited to provide defense against any decent enemy BUT the CC/DMG boost is crazy. 

As I use MV mostly to keep Splinter Storm going I don't really feel any difference other than the better CC to before the change. 

Not everyone likes to play the blender mode, before this you had more than one play style with Gara, now you only have one and it's not exactly the most entertaining thing ever. This is not about what left over we have after DE bashed Gara with a bat, it's about why would you do such a terrible rework to a fairly new frame? I mean, even Limbo is more broken than Gara's wall, why do Gara and why do it so terribly?

By the way, could you tell me how many walls you need to shatter so you can deal with lvl 100 enemies?

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

They should add more health to the Mass Vitrify sections. I've seen people testing it and it doesn't look like the sections can stay alive for very long. You can't even stack them like Snow Globe. Maybe there shouldn't be sections. Maybe just have the whole thing share a total health and the whole thing breaks when the health runs out. Maybe make it gain health equal to the enemies it Crystalizes or something.

[Darkuhn]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Cincirion:

By the way, could you tell me how many walls you need to shatter so you can deal with lvl 100 enemies?

depends on the enemies, corpus and infested (not broilers) around 2-3 shatters i think (would have to test it again), Greener alot more, because of armorscaling. 

 

 

[Darkuhn]

what I don't like about the rework is, that the entire wall shatters if a section makes contact with a nullifier... Would be better if only the touched section would collapse.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Darkuhn

[Messkoo]

It's to have all disadvantage.

[Lyravain]

My feedback to Mass Vitrify would be to buff its health a little bit (about 1/3 to 1/2 of a Snowglobe's health) and give it a few seconds of damage invulnerability and absorption. It's the exact same issue we had with Frost and Rhino way back when. A few seconds of invulnerability would bring it up to snuff as an 'alternative' to Frost.

[Cincirion]

26 minutes ago, Messkoo said:

It's to have all disadvantage.

I don't think that making a frame's ability nearly obsolete is a way to introduce a disadvantage, the punch through weakness is a disadvantage.

[zethfoxster]

1 hour ago, Darkuhn said:

In my opinion the change isn't that bad, as you can use MV to reapply Splinter Storm on all Targets in range. 

And it hard cc's all enemys in the affected area. They stop moving an take more damage. As the cc part no longer is dependent on the Wall the ability can be used as a long lasting hard cc with dmg boost to a large area.

If you couple that with the synergy of MV and Splinter Storm you can provide a permanent 90% DR, 70% DMG Buff and Crazy AOE for the whole Party. 

Also you can brake the wall for extra AOE DMG in a 21 meter area around the Wall (with my setup around 40k-60k against any not heavily armored Enemy) which shreds through Infested and Corpus at any level.

As many said the wall isn't really suited to provide defense against any decent enemy BUT the CC/DMG boost is crazy. 

As I use MV mostly to keep Splinter Storm going I don't really feel any difference other than the better CC to before the change. 

These people dont care about actually using the rest of her kit. They only want to press 4 to win. I personally use the synergies in her kit, use the 4 as a cc tool like you said while buffing my walking blender 2. They dont want to press 3 buttons they want press 4 and done. No sense trying to convince them, theyll report you the min you get frustrated trying to prove gara is still a monster.

[Deristel]

I don't get those who complain about gara being too op comparing frost bubble.Have these person ever tried playing both frame?Have they actually tried to check wiki,or like half of the people i met in pub "Stop recasting frost 3,it doesn't stack".?Frost is pretty much builded as a hybrid power strenght/efficency with armor,if you want to focus on 3.
You can spam 3 bubble at lvl 100,using the invulnerability time,stack them and go around doing your stuff for a while.Gara had to keep her eyes on timer of 2 and 4 every time.And you actually had to warn player you were recasting 4 to refresh the 2 you put on them.While you recast 4,mobs could shot trough it.Wich could simply mean the death of the defense objective,or heavy damage to it,on higher level missions.The drawback of gara 4 was to waste time bullet jumping to increase it's height,and having to do that every 40 seconds or so.

As thing stands now,gara will be sitting on a shelf.And probably i will not log on warframe for a while,because the developer decided to ignore thousands of feedback player gave about this change.They put gara behind a previously insane farm wall,due to the horrible drop rates and rewards you used to get if gara parts didn't come out.Lots of people paid to buy her.And after a couple months they do a "bait and switch". What the hell,when you created MV not having health and scaling on durability,being able to keep mobs out of the walls,well..what did you expect?You made that skill knowing that was its mechanic.Now after 2 months "Too op". Gara was slightly weaker than frost as a purely defensive frame.Sure,she had other utility,but the reason that a lot of people went from frost to gara was simply because WE'VE BEEN USING FROST FOR YEARS and we're sick,i feel sick when i have to do a defense and i have to be the one picking frost.It makes me want to puke.

I don't know how you can fix her without rebalancing all the mess you made.She has no armor but scales on armor for her 4.Her 3 has no hp to be useful,and while this can be kinda countered with adding range,creating more mirrors,it's useless if not paired with a good durability to keep the mirrors up long enough to make them worth using.

Power strenght is useless on her past 35% or so,yeah,more damage.Guess what?I have weapons for that.Hell,why not take a look at chroma that can do 400k dmg with a 7 forma build?THAT'S OP. but know what?I'm fine with it,it's a cooperative game.Meh,whatever,i'm just angry at what they did and how they did it.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Deristel

[Deristel]

11 minutes ago, zethfoxster said:

These people dont care about actually using the rest of her kit. They only want to press 4 to win. I personally use the synergies in her kit, use the 4 as a cc tool like you said while buffing my walking blender 2. They dont want to press 3 buttons they want press 4 and done. No sense trying to convince them, theyll report you the min you get frustrated trying to prove gara is still a monster.

please,you joined this forum not even a month ago.You probably don't even know the game mechanics,not have enough mods or maxed mod to properly test ability scaling,i bet you never even tried a hour and half void survival.Players here have been playing for years,we have seen how DE act,how they can bash or glorify a frame on a whim,and how they went from prioritizing user feedback to blatantly ignore it because "They know better". What's your mr?How many frame you played?How much have you played?Do you even have gara?I'm sure you don't.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Deristel

[zethfoxster]

6 minutes ago, Deristel said:

please,you joined this forum not even a months ago.You probably don't even know the game mechanics,not have enough mods or maxed mod to properly test ability scaling,i bet you never even tried a hour and half void survival.Player here have been playing for years,we have seen how DE act,how they can bash or glorify a frame on a whim,and how they went from prioritizing user feedback to blatantly ignore it because "They know better". What's your mr?How many frame you played?How much have you played?Do you even have gara?I'm sure you don't.

I have all the frames all maxed a few primed versions also maxed, about 700 hours played, about to be rank 16 which i think on its own means i know a bit about what i say. I own gara, and find her perfectly balanced after the change. Hit me up ingame, or just look up my profile zethfoxster ....you can verify what i just said. 

[Deristel]

1 hour ago, zethfoxster said:

I have all the frames all maxed a few primed versions also maxed, about 700 hours played, about to be rank 16 which i think on its own means i know a bit about what i say. I own gara, and find her perfectly balanced after the change. Hit me up ingame, or just look up my profile zethfoxster ....you can verify what i just said. 

yet you insist that gara is perfectly balanced because she can be a "Walking blender". Gara is not ember.Sure,she,with the right commitment to stacking,could make insane amount of darmage (That you lost on respawn if falling from a pit,or if a nullifier spawned on you).But that's not her signature.If i want a damage reduction frame,i take a trinity.If i want the walking blender mechanics,i take ember.Her 1 was pretty risky to use,because often you ended up shattering your own wall if used with the slash movement (and if you specced with blast,you were always using slash due to cc).Her 2 is great,maybe too much being uncapped.Her 3 is... useless.I mean,the concept is good,but in pratice it's not worth the energy invested.Her 4 was her signature and was working great. Now,on 4 ability,you're gonna just use 2 with 4 for buffing and 1 as cc?I'd take octavia over her personally..if they fixed the damn client bug that make her almost useless dps wise.

Frames should enhance you,give you mechanics to play with.There are damage frames,focused on damage.And utility frames,that are focused on healing,defense,damage reduction and so on.We need the utility.Our weapons do too much damage already.While 4+2 is a nice synergy,it's unacceptable thinking that's all a frame that had a very balanced kit can do now.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Deristel

[zethfoxster]

5 minutes ago, Deristel said:

yet you insist that gara is perfectly balanced because she can be a "Walking blender". Gara is not ember.Sure,she,with the right commitment to stacking,could make insane amount of darmor (That you lost on respawn if falling from a pit,or if a nullifier spawned on you).But that's not her signature.If i want a damage reduction frame,i take a trinity.If i want the walking blender mechanics,i take ember.Her 1 was pretty risky to use,because often you ended up shattering your own wall if used with the slash movement (and if you specced with blast,you were always using slash due to cc).Her 2 is great,maybe too much being uncapped.Her 3 is... useless.I mean,the concept is good,but in pratice it's not worth the energy invested.Her 4 was her signature and was working great. Now,on 4 ability,you're gonna just use 2 with 4 for buffing and 1 as cc?I'd take octavia over her personally..if they fixed the damn client bug that make her almost useless dps wise.

Frames should enhance you,give you mechanics to play with.There are damage frames,focused on damage.And utility frames,that are focused on healing,defense,damage reduction and so on.We need the utility.Our weapons do too much damage already.While 4+2 is a nice synergy,it's unacceptable thinking that's all a frame that had a very balanced kit can do now.

Trin caps at 75% damage reduction, splinter storm caps at 90% damage reduction which btw the 2 can now be cast on the wall segments if im not mistaken. why would you choose trin for the heals? 

[Deristel]

12 minutes ago, zethfoxster said:

Trin caps at 75% damage reduction, splinter storm caps at 90% damage reduction which btw the 2 can now be cast on the wall segments if im not mistaken. why would you choose trin for the heals? 

Because she heals when casting 4.If you need a costant,flat 90% damage reduction to play a game there is something terribly wrong.Trinity is THE support (moreso in the past,before the nerfs) I could also argue "Why play anything beside rhino with iron skin". 

Plus,as a gara you can't cast 2 on your sentinel since you can't target it (it moves away that little bit you need for aim her 2) wich means that while you do have 90% damage reduction,due to the nerf to healt orbs (Belive me,in the past you had thousand health orbs on the floor),unless you spam health restoring item or have a healer frame,no matter how much damage reduction you have,your healt will be chipped away with very little way of restoring it.Because yuour sentinel is most likelyu dead,so no medi-ray

Edited December 8, 2017 by Deristel

[zethfoxster]

1 minute ago, Deristel said:

Because she heals when casting 4.If you need a costant,flat 90% damage reduction to play a game there is something terribly wrong.Trinity is THE support (moreso in the past,before the nerfs) I could also argue "Why play anything beside rhino with iron skin". 

My whole point is im seeing all these crying post bash DE for balancing claiming gara is trashtier now but its so far from the truth, shes just not a press 4 and fall asleep frame anymore.

Even limbo requires more work than a single button press and i personally consider him the cheese of high level def missions. 

I think the only thing i agree on about gara is that the 3 is lackluster, in a 200% range build its only slightly useful cause you can manage to trap things in it. Anything less and its just not useful at all, maybe if it mezmerised things outside the mirror ring instead of inside. But even there im sure DE will eventually give the 3 some love jist like mirage got with trickster(which now actually does something). 

[Deristel]

13 minutes ago, zethfoxster said:

My whole point is im seeing all these crying post bash DE for balancing claiming gara is trashtier now but its so far from the truth, shes just not a press 4 and fall asleep frame anymore.

Even limbo requires more work than a single button press and i personally consider him the cheese of high level def missions. 

I think the only thing i agree on about gara is that the 3 is lackluster, in a 200% range build its only slightly useful cause you can manage to trap things in it. Anything less and its just not useful at all, maybe if it mezmerised things outside the mirror ring instead of inside. But even there im sure DE will eventually give the 3 some love jist like mirage got with trickster(which now actually does something). 

You can't base a frame on the ability to keeps stacks going. Nidius can do it because he doesn't lose them all at once.
Wall boken too fast?Can't stack (leaving objective to find a place to cast wall and stack,is counter productive in terms of defense objective)
Playing vs corpus?Have fun with nullifiers

Falling into a pit due to clipping or just a bad jump?Lose your 2 and all the stacks on it.

No energy left?Either you start using pizza,or bye bye stacks.

Gara wasn't meant for damage but for utility.I'd still play her if they removed ALL damage on 2.I'd find her less fun,sure,but still perfectly viable.I still got my primary,secondary and melee.Or operetor beam,in some awkward scenarios.

Once you leave gara with a "I can shield" it's over.Because the damage you can do by stacking 2+4 can easily been outdone by a well modded weapon.Or..chroma.

Gara is a defensive-utility frame.and we're left with a "95% damage reduction" wich has to be refreshed manually because most of the time noone will bother to check the timer to come where you are to get it refreshed with 4.So let's compare her with rhino.Rhino has total invulnerability,a damage buff and a massive instant CC. why should someone still play gara now?

 

And you know what is worse?That DE got tons of feedback on it.thousands of post got completely ignored.And probably they didn't even tested her 4 now (Because PC became the beta tester community while console get the polished product due to the couple months release difference on update).

Noone in their right mind would give a 4 so little hp once you make contents for 100 lvl mobs (Sorties) or on steroid grineer bounties wich have way higher stats than normal.What it's really pissing me off,is they way that DE is acting toward the comunity wich apparently knows how this game work way better than them.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Deristel

[zethfoxster]

2 minutes ago, Deristel said:

You can't base a frame on the ability to keeps stacks going. Nidius can do it because he doesn't lose them all at once.
Wall boken too fast?Can't stack (leaving objective to find a place to cast wall and stack,is counter productive in terms of defense objective)
Playing vs corpus?Have fun with nullifiers

Falling into a pit due to clipping or just a bad jump?Lose your 2 and all the stacks on it.

No energy left?Either you start using pizza,or bye bye stacks.

Gara wasn't meant for damage but for utility.I'd still play her if they removed ALL damage on 2.I'd find her less fun,sure,but still perfectly viable.I still got my primary,secondary and melee.Or operetor beam,in some awkward scenarios.

Once you leave gara with a "I can shield" it's over.Because the damage you can do by stacking 2+4 can easily been outdone by a well modded weapon.Or..chroma.

Gara is a defensive-utility frame.and we're left with a "95% damage reduction" wich has to be refreshed manually because most of the time noone will bother to check the timer to come where you are to get it refreshed with 4.So let's compare her with rhino.Rhino has total invulnerability,a damage buff and a massive instant CC. why should someone still play gara now?

Ive changed my build to a max range/ moderate duration build, i run around turning whole rooms of baddies into glass and shatter them with my fragor...the nerf to wall also buffed the cc part, the cc duration is now seperate from the wall and is effected by mods, before it wasnt...shes still a lot of fun, but you got to get out of the unbreakable wall mindset and play her for other strength. Her cc on her 4 is outstanding cause the entire time you cast you cant be hurt, unlike other full room cc frames that can still be 2 shot mid animation(such as frost) and recasting refreshes the cc unlike rhino who can only cc things that are not current cced. She has other strength.

[xXxYolomaster420xXx]

I think it'll be pretty easy to fix this though, we just need to find a way for MV to scale with enemy level. Either increase the wall's health based off the max HP of "glassed" enemies or give it a period of invulnerability like during its expansion, where any damage absorbed is multiplied by a certain factor and added to its HP. Or do both, why not. Its base health has to be increased too, since it has a fixed duration it really shouldn't break as easily as it does now.

[Deristel]

7 minutes ago, zethfoxster said:

Ive changed my build to a max range/ moderate duration build, i run around turning whole rooms of baddies into glass and shatter them with my fragor...the nerf to wall also buffed the cc part, the cc duration is now seperate from the wall and is effected by mods, before it wasnt...shes still a lot of fun, but you got to get out of the unbreakable wall mindset and play her for other strength. Her cc on her 4 is outstanding cause the entire time you cast you cant be hurt, unlike other full room cc frames that can still be 2 shot mid animation(such as frost) and recasting refreshes the cc unlike rhino who can only cc things that are not current cced. She has other strength.

have fun making defenses last way longer because you freeze mobs all over the place.I'd pick nova every day over that,at least they can still move around.What's the difference between

"Keping them out of a wall is too powerfull and ruins the FUN making people go afk every minute" wich "glass everything making mobs not move or shot at all and do it again ever so often" the fact that she can still be used,while other frames do what she does way better,doesn't means this nerf was unconsidered,expecially for an ultimate.Everything is viable.Even mag is viable if builded range/efficency+spam 1.But there's difference between viable and useful.or just fun.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Deristel

[zethfoxster]

Got the perfect fix that will make everyone happy. Revert the wall nerf and instead make it so you cant shot through or melee through the wall, if you want to kill the things outside the wall you have to step outside the wall and put yourself at risk of being 1 shotted. Perfect solution, risk vs reward for using the skill perfectly balanced.

 

Second option, make the 3 useful...

If you cast mirrors inside wall, when a wall breaks an existing mirror in the carasol flys over to the broken section, melta and repairs the hole.

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by zethfoxster