Gara Mass Vitrify feedback

[timur_the_lame]

23 minutes ago, zethfoxster said:

Ive changed my build to a max range/ moderate duration build, i run around turning whole rooms of baddies into glass and shatter them with my fragor...the nerf to wall also buffed the cc part, the cc duration is now seperate from the wall and is effected by mods, before it wasnt...shes still a lot of fun, but you got to get out of the unbreakable wall mindset and play her for other strength. Her cc on her 4 is outstanding cause the entire time you cast you cant be hurt, unlike other full room cc frames that can still be 2 shot mid animation(such as frost) and recasting refreshes the cc unlike rhino who can only cc things that are not current cced. She has other strength.

They made modding for her wall counter-intuitive and bad for her other skills.  It's bad game design.  

The CC portion of her wall was never why it was useful.

They literally changed her from a point defense frame into a slightly less S#&$ty version of Valkyr, albeit one which requires more tedious skill management and risks losing 100% of her damage output by falling in a pit or having a nullifier spawn on her.

The changes are extraordinarily bad and were unnecessary when the other point defense frames (Limbo, Frost, Vauban) had literally unkillable defense skills, like Limbo, or effectively unkillable, like frost (with stacking, etc).  

The difference between a Gara joining my game and a Frost joining my game was this: "oh good, Gara, now I don't need to worry about the defense target"
"Oh great, a Frost, now I need to worry about this idiot putting his bubbles everywhere and making the game a nightmare to play."

[Draugurr]

1 hour ago, zethfoxster said:

Got the perfect fix that will make everyone happy. Revert the wall nerf and instead make it so you cant shot through or melee through the wall, if you want to kill the things outside the wall you have to step outside the wall and put yourself at risk of being 1 shotted. Perfect solution, risk vs reward for using the skill perfectly balanced.

 

Second option, make the 3 useful...

If you cast mirrors inside wall, when a wall breaks an existing mirror in the carasol flys over to the broken section, melta and repairs the hole.

 

Because walking about with 90% damage reduction and doing insane damage is very risky. 

[zethfoxster]

Just now, Draugurr said:

Because walking about with 90% damage reduction and doing insane damage is very risky. 

If you go through the thread youll see i have no problem with the nerf. Gara is still brokenly op after the nerf. Its everyone else thats crying about gara.

They think if they cry enough it will be reverted, the change is not getting reverted, the most you can do is hope they add a synergy or buff hp on wall(unlikely). 

I will say that if they made it so you have to exit the wall to kill stuff it would be riskier than what the wall was before. You shouldnt be allowed to shot through or even walk through it.

 

[Draugurr]

1 minute ago, zethfoxster said:

If you go through the thread youll see i have no problem with the nerf. Gara is still brokenly op after the nerf. Its everyone else thats crying about gara.

They think if they cry enough it will be reverted, the change is not getting reverted, the most you can do is hope they add a synergy or buff hp on wall(unlikely). 

I will say that if they made it so you have to exit the wall to kill stuff it would be riskier than what the wall was before. You shouldnt be allowed to shot through or even walk through it.

 

Still 90% damage reduction with insane damage is hardly risky. It's about as risky as an Ember in lvl 10 missions.

The thing people are upset about is DE has forced one sort of play style with Gara and that is being a blender. It's obviously your play style. So what would you know about the MV nerf. It's absolutely useless in Sorties. Gets destroys in a matter of seconds. It can't be stacked so already it's inferior to snow globe. It doesn't have an invulnerability stage which lasts for 3 seconds once again it's inferior to snow globe. It scales of power strength and armor. Gara has a low base armor value so that makes it inferior to snow globe when frost has higher base armor value. 

So why would anyone pick Gara for defensive missions when she doesn't fit that role anymore. She had options before now she has only one. There are frames that does that job a whole lot better than her. So you think if they made you leave the wall to kill people it would be better huh. No one needs to leave Frosts snow globe to kill people. No one needs to leave Limbos Cataclysm to kill people. 

[zethfoxster]

6 minutes ago, Draugurr said:

Still 90% damage reduction with insane damage is hardly risky. It's about as risky as an Ember in lvl 10 missions.

The thing people are upset about is DE has forced one sort of play style with Gara and that is being a blender. It's obviously your play style. So what would you know about the MV nerf. It's absolutely useless in Sorties. Gets destroys in a matter of seconds. It can't be stacked so already it's inferior to snow globe. It doesn't have an invulnerability stage which lasts for 3 seconds once again it's inferior to snow globe. It scales of power strength and armor. Gara has a low base armor value so that makes it inferior to snow globe when frost has higher base armor value. 

So why would anyone pick Gara for defensive missions when she doesn't fit that role anymore. She had options before now she has only one. There are frames that does that job a whole lot better than her. So you think if they made you leave the wall to kill people it would be better huh. No one needs to leave Frosts snow globe to kill people. No one needs to leave Limbos Cataclysm to kill people. 

They nerfed it, i support the nerf...deal with it. Move on.

[Draugurr]

Just now, zethfoxster said:

They nerfed it, i support the nerf...deal with it. Move on.

I would support it as well if i never player a defensive style. But since i played Gara as a defensive frame i don't support the nerf. So nope i'll complain and moan some more. 

[zethfoxster]

On 12/8/2017 at 7:19 PM, Draugurr said:

I would support it as well if i never player a defensive style. But since i played Gara as a defensive frame i don't support the nerf. So nope i'll complain and moan some more. 

Again the complainer is you dear. Not i.

Use the cc of the 4, there you defensive aurgument is in the toilet, better yet cast 2 on the def object, 90% damage reduction on an object with 40k hp...

[Messkoo]

The trouble it's that gara need some balance, and a nerf (or a change like this, witch is far not perfect) coming yet without changing other issues is not a solution. And as I have already seen, this will stay lick this until gara prime coming out without modification. So many people are afraid to stay in this stats for many months/years.

[zethfoxster]

Just now, Messkoo said:

The trouble it's that gara need some balance, and a nerf (or a change like this, witch is far not perfect) coming yet without changing other issues is not a solution. And as I have already seen, this will stay lick this until gara prime coming out without modification. So many people are afraid to stay in this stats for many months/years.

It will be year and a half minimum, gara just came out, theres a bunch of others in line before gara for prime....

Gara is still powerful now has more than one build thats not based on standing behind a glass wall...i dont see it changing even with prime. You dont see ash ulty reverted, you dont see frost nerf reverted....all this crying people are doing is pointless because shes still strong.

[Keltik0ne]

Not a great change, but you never know, it may be altered a bit.

Or given a band aid augment.

[Deristel]

45 minutes ago, zethfoxster said:

They nerfed it, i support the nerf...deal with it. Move on.

So IF they ever restored MV but nerfed her 2 damage capping it at 3k each tick,would you cry for unplayability?Honestly her 2 while situational is the real skill needing a fix,not her 4.
Still,i would hope for a decent fix,going for a "They didn't nerf my playstyle so suck it up" it's a very immature,toxic and counterproductive attitude in a game.

Edit:

The way you're acting is pretty much like this

Nidius nerf:Her 2 was too strong,now it can only grab 2 mobs at once.

you"Why everybody crying?You don't need 2 to hit mobs,learn to let them pile up before casting 1"

Edited December 8, 2017 by Deristel
Added last bit

[Flashie]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb zethfoxster:

Im casually glancing at your replies cause other than pure entertainment your input is about as important to me as the condition of a blade of grass in a rolling field of green that i stepped on a year ago....thats exactly how i feel. Imagine that, how miniscule my care for that little bent sprout of grass is, yeah thats you buddy, cheers.

Regardless of whether I support the nerf or not, you have to be the most arrogant individual I've ever seen on this forum. Save the condescending tone and if you have nothing other than "it got nerfed deal with it" to say, do the rest of us a favor and keep your hands off the keyboard.

As for the actual topic:

- I don't think the nerf was truly necessary. As has been pointed out here a thousand times already, there are plenty of other frames that can lock down a large area easily. Using that that as an argument to justify a nerf this hard, is pretty weak.

- DE needs to test these changes against high-level, endgame content, which obviously they haven't done. Otherwise they would've noticed how bad the wall is for actual defensive play, and adjusted its HP or scaling accordingly and given Gara an armor buff to compliment it. The wall doesn't need to be unbreakable but it needs to scale properly and have a decent survivability, which right now, it doesn't have. Most enemies break it in mere seconds, sometimes faster than the time it takes to cast it. That is simply unacceptable.

- There was no visual feedback added to show where the sections end, how much damage they've taken and how close they are to breaking. These things need to be added if this change is here to stay.

 

 

 

[zethfoxster]

Just now, Deristel said:

So IF they ever restored MV but nerfed her 2 damage capping it at 3k each tick,would you cry for unplayability?Honestly her 2 while situational is the real skill needing a fix,not her 4.
Still,i would hope for a decent fix,going for a "They didn't nerf my playstyle so suck it up" it's a very immature,toxic and counterproductive attitude in a game.

I would adjust my build and move on. My current build is a max range build that focuses on turning the room to glass for finisher lvl damage and cc...

They could take the damage out of the 2 completely and its still 90 % dr....which you can cast on the very same defensive objects you all are crying about not being able to defend....just for insight, casting on a defensive objective with 40k ehp would essentially give it close to 400k ehp....so that whole aurgument that shes useless in defense is a load of frog droppings.

[zethfoxster]

1 minute ago, Flashie said:

Regardless of whether I support the nerf or not, you have to be the most arrogant individual I've ever seen on this forum. Save the condescending tone and if you have nothing other than "it got nerfed deal with it" to say, do the rest of us a favor and keep your hands off the keyboard.

As for the actual topic:

- I don't think the nerf was truly necessary. As has been pointed out here a thousand times already, there are plenty of other frames that can lock down a large area easily. Using that that as an argument to justify a nerf this hard, is pretty weak.

- DE needs to test these changes against high-level, endgame content, which obviously they haven't done. Otherwise they would've noticed how bad the wall is for actual defensive play, and adjusted its HP or scaling accordingly and given Gara an armor buff to compliment it. The wall doesn't need to be unbreakable but it needs to scale properly and have a decent survivability, which right now, it doesn't have. Most enemies break it in mere seconds, sometimes faster than the time it takes to cast it. That is simply unacceptable.

- There was no visual feedback added to show where the sections end, how much damage they've taken and how close they are to breaking. These things need to be added if this change is here to stay.

 

 

 

It got nerfed, adjust your build, move on.

[Tokens210]

18 hours ago, zethfoxster said:

if you all are building her for the wall and not splinter storm, you are playing her SOOOOOOO wrong...

shes a walking blender...be thankful it was the wall that got nerfed.

heres how you play gara.

1) make wall

2) cast splinter storm on yourself

3) walk outside wall and shatter it with your 1

4) make wall, walk outside and shatter it, make wall, walk outside and shatter, repeat as many time as you feel/can...

5) literally just walk through lvl 100s dealing 40k damage per sec. you can also opt to slide, backflip, or crawl

6) refresh your splinter storm by casting your wall and break that wall to add even more damage to the splinter storm every time you refresh.

 

she is a walking blender. period.

yea before you could max her duration and still build enough to make her splinter shield op

problem is now i can guess with almost 100% certainty that shes gonna end up with yet another nerf/ or cap on that ability as everyone will now build her for eff and strength and simply spam and smash walls all day, which you couldnt really do before as builing her for strength and duration limited your eff. to usually have it be 100%

spam and smashing her wall around i think it was 8-10 times will cause her to take 0 damage while dealing enough from the storm that level 100+ enemies insta die when you get close, then you just need to recast the wall anytime you wanna reset your timer

[Darkuhn]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb zethfoxster:

the nerf to wall also buffed the cc part, the cc duration is now seperate from the wall and is effected by mods, before it wasnt...shes still a lot of fun, but you got to get out of the unbreakable wall mindset and play her for other strength. Her cc on her 4 is outstanding cause the entire time you cast you cant be hurt, unlike other full room cc frames that can still be 2 shot mid animation(such as frost) and recasting refreshes the cc unlike rhino who can only cc things that are not current cced. She has other strength.

just this, all i read is whining about how the invincible wall is gone an the frame isn't useful beyond his 4th. What all the whining players fail to realize is, that frosts 3rd was also duration based and invincible years ago. It was changed to be Health based because players would camp under the Dome for entire missions. Which wasn't much fun. 

As soon as I got my hands on Gara and saw that her 4 was INVINCIBLE it was clear to me, that it would be changed, because it would lead to the same gameplay like the "old" Frost 3rdwhich isn't the Gameplay the Devs want for this game.

The problem im encountering with the Community lately is that there are to many who just want to press ONE button to win each fight. Or to have each new Frame handed to them right after release.

I mean come on garas 1st is the strongest 1st in the game right now. With a properly modded Meleeweapon it can deal 20k-60k DMG in an really wide cone. Even Nidus can't do that much right from the start of a Mission.

If all these one dimensinal Players would look a little deeper in to Gara's Kit they would notice that her 1st, 2nd and 4th Ability all work with each other. Instead of just her 4th trivializing ny content.

Also DE mentioned some time ago in a Devstream that their balance goal is between Level 40 and 50 so with a wall that works against those Enemies their Balancegoal is reached.

[zethfoxster]

1 minute ago, Tokens210 said:

yea before you could max her duration and still build enough to make her splinter shield op

problem is now i can guess with almost 100% certainty that shes gonna end up with yet another nerf/ or cap on that ability as everyone will now build her for eff and strength and simply spam and smash walls all day, which you couldnt really do before as builing her for strength and duration limited your eff. to usually have it be 100%

spam and smashing her wall around i think it was 8-10 times will cause her to take 0 damage while dealing enough from the storm that level 100+ enemies insta die when you get close, then you just need to recast the wall anytime you wanna reset your timer

As overpowered as it is its very unlikely to get the same lvl of nerf as her wall becuase you actually have to build it for that, run the correct weapon damage type for the scaled damage, have enough energy to maintain it, and continue to watch timers to make sure your buff is up...basically you have to actually play gara. 

The wall was brokenly op, you literally did nothing but stand inside casting 4.

[zethfoxster]

4 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

just this, all i read is whining about how the invincible wall is gone an the frame isn't useful beyond his 4th. What all the whining players fail to realize is, that frosts 3rd was also duration based and invincible years ago. It was changed to be Health based because players would camp under the Dome for entire missions. Which wasn't much fun. 

As soon as I got my hands on Gara and saw that her 4 was INVINCIBLE it was clear to me, that it would be changed, because it would lead to the same gameplay like the "old" Frost 3rdwhich isn't the Gameplay the Devs want for this game.

The problem im encountering with the Community lately is that there are to many who just want to press ONE button to win each fight. Or to have each new Frame handed to them right after release.

I mean come on garas 1st is the strongest 1st in the game right now. With a properly modded Meleeweapon it can deal 20k-60k DMG in an really wide cone. Even Nidus can't do that much right from the start of a Mission.

If all these one dimensinal Players would look a little deeper in to Gara's Kit they would notice that her 1st, 2nd and 4th Ability all work with each other. Instead of just her 4th trivializing ny content.

Also DE mentioned some time ago in a Devstream that their balance goal is between Level 40 and 50 so with a wall that works against those Enemies their Balancegoal is reached.

If i could clap at this post a million times i would.

[Tokens210]

2 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

just this, all i read is whining about how the invincible wall is gone an the frame isn't useful beyond his 4th. What all the whining players fail to realize is, that frosts 3rd was also duration based and invincible years ago. It was changed to be Health based because players would camp under the Dome for entire missions. Which wasn't much fun. 

As soon as I got my hands on Gara and saw that her 4 was INVINCIBLE it was clear to me, that it would be changed, because it would lead to the same gameplay like the "old" Frost 3rdwhich isn't the Gameplay the Devs want for this game.

The problem im encountering with the Community lately is that there are to many who just want to press ONE button to win each fight. Or to have each new Frame handed to them right after release.

I mean come on garas 1st is the strongest 1st in the game right now. With a properly modded Meleeweapon it can deal 20k-60k DMG in an really wide cone. Even Nidus can't do that much right from the start of a Mission.

If all these one dimensinal Players would look a little deeper in to Gara's Kit they would notice that her 1st, 2nd and 4th Ability all work with each other. Instead of just her 4th trivializing ny content.

Also DE mentioned some time ago in a Devstream that their balance goal is between Level 40 and 50 so with a wall that works against those Enemies their Balancegoal is reached.

i never consider her 4 Invincible since nulls insta break it and any later level missions will spawn atleast 2 nulls with every single group of enemies, her wall also doesnt stop AoE attacks like most others altho you could usually make it big enough to not need to worry about it

besides that the wall always had issues that made enemies get thru or whatnot, before changes ive had enemies climb thru my placed wall like climbing over an object, even had enemies climb over a wall i had clearly way to high to be climbed as well as any enemies stuck in the wall or any enemies with long weapons it went thru the wall allowing them to shoot you anyway

[Marthrym]

The saddest part is, it's only the bad mechanics of Snowglobe that were used to nerf Mass Vitrify, and now the base health of Mass Vitrify' segments themselves is less than half that of Snowglobe's, doesn't stack up to 4 times, doesn't have any invulnerability period to allow it to soak up damage to boost its health, costs a lot more energy, is a bigger, easier target, and is just impractical to use in the first place. Mass Vitrify is an ULTIMATE power, right?. And Snowglobe IS NOT, right? And yet Snowglobe is far more durable than Mass vitrify, far more flexible and cheaper, basically all around a better option... Sure, everything's fine here, working as intended, nothing to see people!

Listen... I get that Mass Vitrify's first iteration may not have been the most well-balanced power out there, we have plenty that still aren't by the way, just in case you forgot dear devs, but the new one is just plain garbage, only useful to feed Gara's Shatterstorm, which hilariously enough, despite its terrifying strength, protective and destructive potentials seems to be A-okay for you, dear devs. Whaaaa...?

Oh and let's not forget armor also being part of the equation now, on a frame that has 125 base armor. Tell me... how can any armor mod be worth a slot, especially when it only mildly affects a single solitary power, adds little to no survivability to the frame itself, said frame already possessing a damage reduction based power to begin with (you know the one mentioned above, that turns Gara into a freaking wrecking ball on top of making her AND her teammates super resilient and protects even pods? No? Doesn't ring a bell? Nevermind then...), and negatively impacts the rest of Gara's powers by taking up that slot for another actually useful and useable mod?

Seriously though, what "bothers" me the most isn't how Mass vitrify was gutted on the altar of the Sacred Balance, no, she has other tricks (you know, that wrecking ball thingy I mentioned twice already above? Still not ringing any bell?), what does bother me the most is that this "update" effectively gimped Gara's entire kit, like others did for Frost and several others, by making build flexibility nonexistant and forcing players to pile on a single stat just to make a single power perform even remotely "well" precisely at the level range it actually does become a useful tool, or simply not give a crap about it and build for another single solitary wildly overpowered power. Good job there guys, kuddos!

Oh and, while we're at it, can we also talk about how buggy Mass Vitrify is, what with enemies "climbing" or dashing right through the wall more often than not? And how AI pathing tends to make 9 segments out of 12 pretty much nothing more than decorations? Not important? Will be fixed later? "Around the corner" maybe? No? Okay...

Someone at DE did not think this through at all, it's painfully obvious. And sad. And disappointing. So much potential, why have it marred or outright ruined by poor and /or hasty decision making like this? I mean I know, this is just a "first try" on the devs' part, they'll "adjust" things with the "feedback" they deign worthy of being considered and all that, but... this is a really poor first try you know? Kinda makes me worried it might never get much better any time soon you know? I am sad now. I need a hug...

 

Meanwhile my Frost sits pretty and safely inside his Snowglobe with a pristine pod on wave 41 on Hydron while I'm tabbed out, sipping a coffee and reading the news about Trump proving yet again how big of a tool he is on several websites.

Say, how about next time we start with fixing the bugs and all that backlog of stuff that doesn't work as intended before we break stuff that actually does work? Just saying... It's an option... No? Okay... Sorry to bother you...

 

EDIT : Before I get flammed for devbashing or whatever, I'd just like to say that I love this game, I love the devs, they are good people, they work their @sses off (you should really take better care of yourselves dear devs... less coffee, more sleep!) and have many talents in many areas. Just not in the "balancing a game" area. But at least they do try hard, that is true. I just wish, after watching the same pattern over and over since 2013, it would have gotten better by now, you know? I'm really sad...

Edited December 8, 2017 by Marthrym

[Darkuhn]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Tokens210:

i never consider her 4 Invincible since nulls insta break it and any later level missions will spawn atleast 2 nulls with every single group of enemies,

we have firearms for that, or didn't you juse them to prevent the walls from making contact with nullis? That would just be an example for really bad gameplay or situational awareness.

also same goes for Frost 3rd.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Darkuhn

[Tokens210]

3 minutes ago, zethfoxster said:

As overpowered as it is its very unlikely to get the same lvl of nerf as her wall becuase you actually have to build it for that, run the correct weapon damage type for the scaled damage, have enough energy to maintain it, and continue to watch timers to make sure your buff is up...basically you have to actually play gara. 

The wall was brokenly op, you literally did nothing but stand inside casting 4.

yea but now i simply cast wall, smash, cast wall, smash, cast wall, smash, and im a god for the entire level that can kill everything without a single shot as long as i recast anytime timer runs short

 

The way i see the "fix" is,   wall being really really good or OP for defense missions (since you could only have 1 wall at a time etc the wall itself besides for the storm/cc effects were mostly good for defense and only defense since it would stop enemies so you need to go find them etc etc) , lets take that away and make it easier for them to just flat out become gods lol

[Tokens210]

5 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

we have firearms for that, or didn't you just them to prevent the walls from making contact with nullis? That would just be an example for really bad gameplay or situational awareness.

also same goes for Frost 3rd.

oh i know it goes for frosts 3rd im just saying more the fact that late game missions like sorties or such once you start using gara's wall null enemies would seriously start to pour out of the woodwork, 4-8 coming from 4 different directions, they begin to spawn under or above you on some levels so you cant see them till they break it, youll always have times where they break the wall and without having a splinter storm up with a bunch of broken walls under your belt gara is squishier so youll 100% be going down in that short window, and unable to recast the wall to reup the storm or to put ureself in invunerable mode cause the nu;lls will be right there

i was merely saying that unlike frosts it was duration based but nulls and other things all effected it just like frosts globe

Edited December 8, 2017 by Tokens210

[zethfoxster]

1 minute ago, Tokens210 said:

yea but now i simply cast wall, smash, cast wall, smash, cast wall, smash, and im a god for the entire level that can kill everything without a single shot as long as i recast anytime timer runs short

 

The way i see the "fix" is,   wall being really really good or OP for defense missions (since you could only have 1 wall at a time etc the wall itself besides for the storm/cc effects were mostly good for defense and only defense since it would stop enemies so you need to go find them etc etc) , lets take that away and make it easier for them to just flat out become gods lol

But casting 2 on a defense item with 40k hps with only 130% strengths gives that item an ehp of close to 400k...are the people that just cast wall not bothering with that?

[Darkuhn]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Tokens210:

oh i know it goes for frosts 3rd im just saying more the fact that late game missions like sorties or such once you start using gara's wall null enemies would seriously start to pour out of the woodwork, 4-8 coming from 4 different directions, they begin to spawn under or above you on some levels so you cant see them till they break it

i was merely saying that unlike frosts it was duration based but nulls and other things all effected it just like frosts globe

 let's not forget that nullis are in the game do be a hindrance for our Abilitys. And they do their job pretty well ;)