please make unairu not so bad again

[Ozelot.Revolver]

well unairu will be the tree of tanks a wf tanks for can focus in hes speciality not for bring a little armour to squishy wf why take the porcent armour? its not broken only a good useful pasive and now give 60 flat armour? its nothing compare whit can bring a porcent amour can bring to inaros, rhino, chroma please if dont broken dont fix it, it was fin as it was 

[krc473]

Its has more utility this way. It has a greater effect on the frames that actually need armour.

[Rawbeard]

is the 60 armor that much less than the 20% or whatever it was before for higi armor frames?

[DiabolusUrsus]

Somebody clarify for me:

Is it a flat armor increase or a flat base armor increase? Because if it's just a flat 60 I can see that as problematic. But if it's flat base that should be beneficial to both low-armor and high-armor frames regardless.

[Ozelot.Revolver]

for example a warframe whit 800 armour can take 80 more armour and that is only base a wf like chroma whit abilitys for inc armour above 5k its a big change and repeat this will be a tree for tanks, makes bettee sinergy a scale porcent bonus i prefer that instead of flat armour thats all not are useless but before it was better

[DroopingPuppy]

34 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Its has more utility this way. It has a greater effect on the frames that actually need armour.

That's right. The sad thing is that they welcomes Zenurik better. (sarcasm)

 

Although I like Zenurik, but I can't understand the situation that only Zenurik dominates the focus school.

[Synpai]

41 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Somebody clarify for me:

Is it a flat armor increase or a flat base armor increase? Because if it's just a flat 60 I can see that as problematic. But if it's flat base that should be beneficial to both low-armor and high-armor frames regardless.

It's a flat base increase; Unairu is one of the best schools right now believe it or not

Edited December 9, 2017 by Synpai

[DiabolusUrsus]

30 minutes ago, Synpai said:

It's a flat base increase; Unairu is one of the best schools right now believe it or not

Thanks. I don't understand the complaints about the change, then.

[Terrornaut]

The armor frames do not need more armor, especially since most of them have invulnerability mechanics or highly effective cc anyway.

 

The flat increase was a good move.  Wish it was a little more, but, glad for the change as a player of squishy frames.

 

If only people could get me some data on void spines though I'm highly dubious and doubtful of it.

[Katinka]

2 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

is the 60 armor that much less than the 20% or whatever it was before for higi armor frames?

Looking at the Wiki comparison list, sorted by Armor, 20% gave Valkyr (Prime) 120 (140), Atlas 90 & Chroma 70.  The other 30 odd frames and their Primes all get the same or more than they used to.  OP's examples of Rhino (Prime) and Inaros used to get 38 (55) and 40 respectively. 

(I am making the assumption here that, as with most things in Warframe, the Unairu passive was based on Rank 0 unmodded stats.)

Edit:  Forgot to take Operator's into consideration.  Apparently they have base Armor of 30 so they've gone from getting 6 to 60.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Katinka

[Bronjun]

Sameness and fairness are indeed two different things. 

[Budu]

I wish the void dash wouldn't fling enemies around with Unairu. The dash is supposed to remove armor and damage from enemies but its annoying when they go rag dolling everywhere.

[blacklusterseph]

Out of curiousity, for the people saying that flat 60 armour is a good change on squishy, frames, what scenarios are you guys playing (and with which 'squishy' frames) where you notice a difference with that amount of armour?

[Terrornaut]

4 hours ago, Budumpshh said:

I wish the void dash wouldn't fling enemies around with Unairu. The dash is supposed to remove armor and damage from enemies but its annoying when they go rag dolling everywhere.

I am constantly mixed with this. I wish it stunned them or just knocked them over where they stood instead, but, I run una void dash on Ember so basically all mobs become trash mobs and I'm always, always damaging mobs with high damage at all levels.  Would be easier to get ground finishers in, but, I guess void dashing is some crazy CC  at times with the flinging.

Now if I could just find some justifiable use out of void spikes, egh.  Damage reflection is cool and fun but it is so horribly implemented in WF, cannot get mileage out of it in any real situation.

[Thrymm]

4 hours ago, blacklusterseph said:

Out of curiousity, for the people saying that flat 60 armour is a good change on squishy, frames, what scenarios are you guys playing (and with which 'squishy' frames) where you notice a difference with that amount of armour?

The way armor works in this game, if I did the formula calculation correctly, a Loki(65 armor) has about 17% damage mitigation.  With 125 armor(Unairu passive) he has 29% and change, rounding to 30%.  Loki has 136 armor with steel fiber, 165 with steel fiber+armored agility.  With Unairu adding 60 to base(meaning mods can add to it), Loki can now achieve 262.5 armor with just Steel fiber(46.6% mitigation) and 318.75 armor with both(51.5% mitigation)---basically the same mitigation as a Frost or Rhino not modded for armor.

The uses for this can be many.  In the case of Loki, imagine having your stealth break and not being instantly gibbed, or actually being able to melee a Napalm without melting the second he randomly throws a flame splotch down, or actually surviving a scorpion knocking you down at an inopportune moment.  Essentially, that armor pays for itself every time Lokis large arsenal of active survival tools don't work out all that well.

A few places that this armor might be even more handy:  Trinity starts with 15 base armor(negligible mitigation) but essentially has her own energy income, so while it won't scale as well as Loki it'll add a noticeable survivability boost to her.  Mesa can see a good improvement because some of her best abilities require her to either get in relatively close or stand still, both great ways to have to take a hit.  Vauban and Volt tend to have some strong CC abilities, but any failure in them results in hits the frame can't really afford to take.

As to whether or not it's worth it....I think that's for the player to decide.  Choosing Unairu instead of Zenurik means choosing that armor over energy income and most, if not all frames with low armor lend themselves to an ability heavy playstyle that might make it not worthwhile.  If you've got energy from other sources, though(Trinity, somebody elses Zenurik radius, etc), you can give yourself alot of survivability, or just open up a different playstyle from the norm and be able to run and gun more with these faster frames.

[Birdframe_Prime]

15 hours ago, gothamson said:

its nothing compare whit can bring a porcent amour can bring to inaros, rhino, chroma please if dont broken dont fix it, it was fin as it was 

The change wasn't brought in because it was broken, the change was brought in because it wasn't fair.

The point of the change was simply so that the boost was uniform and fair across all frames. Because as a percentage it wasn't.

In simple terms Unairu's armour boost did not noticeably buff any frame with low armour. It did buff frames with high armour, but this buff wasn't really noticeable either unless you massively mod for armour. The bias against non-tanky frames was considered unfair.

The pure fact that Unairu adds this armour as Base armour, now, means it's better than it was before for any low-armour frame, and almost as good for high armour frames. Here, quick calculation for an easy one; Valkyr Prime has 700 base armour (the highest base in the game). Her damage reduction with that is 70%, with the old Unairu she had 20% buffed armour up to 840, which gave her 73.68%. This is a 3.68% increase in Valkyr's damare reduction with old Unairu. New Unairu gives base 60 Armour to her, meaning this is technically a nerf, at 760 Armour she has 71.7% damage reduction. So the difference between old Unairu and new Unairu on a tanky frame is about 2% difference (1.98% to be precise).

Basically, for the frame with the highest armour in the game, there is little to no difference between 20% and a flat 60 armour.

Now, let's look at that on any frame with 15 armour like Banshee, Nyx, Trinity, Trinity Prime, Volt and Zephyr.

With 15 Armour your damage reduction is 4.76%

When Unairu added 20% to that? You ended up with 17 Armour, and a damage reduction of 5.36%, which is less than 1% difference. I'll repeat that, Unairu's buff made a 1% difference to damage reduction on frames that are not tanky already.

If Unairu adds 60 Base armour? You end up with 75 armour and damage reduction of 20%. You get over 15% improvement to that frame's damage reduction.

That's huge. You nerf the buff to Valkyr by 2% in order to be able increase the buff to 6 other frames by 15%? That's a no-brainer right there.

How about a frame with a base of 65 armour, like Banshee Prime? Before, Unairu added 20% and changed that frame from 17.81% reduction to 20.63%. After the change it's now 29.41%

Again, this is better, it's better by nearly 9%. Considering the frames with 65 armour are Ash, Banshee Prime, Hydroid, Ivara, Limbo, Loki, Loki Prime, Mag, Mag Prime, Mesa, Mirage, Nekros, Nekros Prime, Nova, Nova Prime and Titania (there's also Nyx Prime and Vauban at 50 armour... meaning there's 24 frames with 65 Armour or less) you're buffing a lot of frames.

tl;dr

So this is the facts here. Your tanky frames are 1-2% worse, your non-tanky frames are 10-15% better.

There are only 4 frames over 300 armour, these are Chroma (350), Atlas (450), Valkyr (600) and Valkyr Prime (700), these are the frames that are nerfed the most by this.

9 frames are in the 225 to 300 range, which show no noticeable change to their stats with this.

13 frames between the range of 100 and 200 that are all buffed by this to some degree.

There are 24 frames with 65 armour or less. 24 frames are hugely buffed by this change. And they are all buffed more than the tanky frames are nerfed.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Thaylien

[blacklusterseph]

1 hour ago, Thrymm said:

The way armor works in this game, if I did the formula calculation correctly, a Loki(65 armor) has about 17% damage mitigation.  With 125 armor(Unairu passive) he has 29% and change, rounding to 30%.  Loki has 136 armor with steel fiber, 165 with steel fiber+armored agility.  With Unairu adding 60 to base(meaning mods can add to it), Loki can now achieve 262.5 armor with just Steel fiber(46.6% mitigation) and 318.75 armor with both(51.5% mitigation)---basically the same mitigation as a Frost or Rhino not modded for armor.

The uses for this can be many.  In the case of Loki, imagine having your stealth break and not being instantly gibbed, or actually being able to melee a Napalm without melting the second he randomly throws a flame splotch down, or actually surviving a scorpion knocking you down at an inopportune moment.  Essentially, that armor pays for itself every time Lokis large arsenal of active survival tools don't work out all that well.

A few places that this armor might be even more handy:  Trinity starts with 15 base armor(negligible mitigation) but essentially has her own energy income, so while it won't scale as well as Loki it'll add a noticeable survivability boost to her.  Mesa can see a good improvement because some of her best abilities require her to either get in relatively close or stand still, both great ways to have to take a hit.  Vauban and Volt tend to have some strong CC abilities, but any failure in them results in hits the frame can't really afford to take.

As to whether or not it's worth it....I think that's for the player to decide.  Choosing Unairu instead of Zenurik means choosing that armor over energy income and most, if not all frames with low armor lend themselves to an ability heavy playstyle that might make it not worthwhile.  If you've got energy from other sources, though(Trinity, somebody elses Zenurik radius, etc), you can give yourself alot of survivability, or just open up a different playstyle from the norm and be able to run and gun more with these faster frames.

I'm aware of the hypothetical damage reduction, I am asking where are you using Unairu's passive that you are practically noticing 60 base armour. As in what kinds of maps/missions are you playing? Do you actually invest 2 mod slots on your caster frame to equip steel fiber and armoured agility?

I don't ask this to critize the change or those who approve of the change, I'm just trying to see what is the context where people are happy with this.

I mostly play Mot these days, and in my limited experience, even 300 armour isn't going to stop you from getting one-tapped by a Tech who happens to stroll round the corner while you are aiming down-sights. So for me personally, I don't see any effect of my maxed Stone Skin, but that being said, I'd like to hear how others are making use of this passive.

[Terrornaut]

For me, it helps slightly with self damage weapons I tend to use, or if I use a stat stack like Javelok+Ember, its a little safer even when modding for min damage.

Its mostly the void dash. Extremely useful, because honestly naramons crit boost is nice but unless I'm leveling a weapon, I seriously do not need more power on my main melee weapons. Stripping 90% armor in 2 dashes means certain frames damage is always, always relevant.

 

I just wonder if the -damage dash stacks, though honestly I can't imagine it ever being useful. Mobs get flung and will probably be dead by the time they get up if you're playing an offensive frame.  Really the only major difference with Unairu is operator armor, wisps, and sundering dash. Otherwise you'll still get more up front use with Zen and Nara.

 

Zen's channeling boost though lol. Ok De.

[H.Katsura_999]

If i'm not mistaken,

Before it was just a flat addition of 20% more armor... and that's it...

Now that flat base armor of 60 is affected by armor altering mods like steel fiber and armored agility and so on.

If you add all the math up  Unairu armor actually got buffed given you have armor altering mods equipped.

 

For tanky frames like Valk, it's a buff.

But!!!! for squishy frames like Nova it's hardly noticeable because you need to sacrifice mod slots for steelfiber to be able to feel that slight tankyness effect.

 

All-and-all Unairu can only support already tanky frames.

For squishy frames I recommend Zenurik :)

[Synpai]

Not many people are going to be happy about this, but the true power of stone skin is for the Operator.

The Operator can get more effective HP than a good portion of the frames and when they do die your frame is safe.

 

Pair the added durability with the ability to give your group invis and you have a powerful tool on your hands if you use it right.

[Ozelot.Revolver]

2 minutes ago, Synpai said:

Not many people are going to be happy about this, but the true power of stone skin is for the Operator.

The Operator can get more effective HP than a good portion of the frames and when they do die your frame is safe.

 

Pair the added durability with the ability to give your group invis and you have a powerful tool on your hands if you use it right.

thar is why each tree have 2 operator passives and 2 general for both im not saying unairu is useless or bad just before was better and compared whit zenurik or others shcool unairu left to much to wish 

[Terrornaut]

10 hours ago, Synpai said:

Not many people are going to be happy about this, but the true power of stone skin is for the Operator.

The Operator can get more effective HP than a good portion of the frames and when they do die your frame is safe.

 

Pair the added durability with the ability to give your group invis and you have a powerful tool on your hands if you use it right.

Definitely noticed a significant difference with the operator being pretty tough now.  Tempted to buy the waybound node, but part of me is a hopeful idiot who still wants to put points into void spines and crippling dash.

[ZoneDymo]

Unairu is still just horrible compared to other schools, and when DE just casually ups Hydroids armor value as much as they did, I find this flat 60 just... well baffling.

Not to mention that 100% damage send back, ermm great?, this is Nekros his shadows all over again.

Warframes have low health and high damage

Enemies have high health and low damage

If you send back low damage to an enemy with high health it does pretty much nothing, let alone as the frame you try to NOT get hurt so its even less.

Even reflecting back 300 x the damage inflicted, it would still be rather meh at best.

Edited December 10, 2017 by ZoneDymo

[(PSN)MrNishi]

14 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

..

If you send back low damage to an enemy with high health it does pretty much nothing, let alone as the frame you try to NOT get hurt so its even less.

Even reflecting back 300 x the damage inflicted, it would still be rather meh at best.

Mallet and Amp ...they seem to work just fine for letting enemies kill themselves.

Granted Mallet accumulates the damage and sends in back to everyone.

Perhaps Vines would be better if it absorbed incoming damage to either fortify(Survivability) or expel the absorbed damage as AoE Radial like Mallet. Rather than only reflecting a percentage of an individuals damage back to the attacking individual.

I am in favor of Vines making your Warframe/Operator a living, albeit weaker, Mallet. 

If that was a change implemented, I think I would want Crippling Dash replaced with something like reinforcing dash.

•Implemented like Ironclad Charge but as Damage mitigation stacking based on how many enemies were affected by Dash.

That way Vines damage is not reduced by enemies being weakened by Crippling Dash and then both Sundering Dash and new 'Reinforcing Dash' would both bolster Vines damage. (Although gimmicky)*

[ZoneDymo]

6 hours ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

Mallet and Amp ...they seem to work just fine for letting enemies kill themselves.

Granted Mallet accumulates the damage and sends in back to everyone.

Perhaps Vines would be better if it absorbed incoming damage to either fortify(Survivability) or expel the absorbed damage as AoE Radial like Mallet. Rather than only reflecting a percentage of an individuals damage back to the attacking individual.

I am in favor of Vines making your Warframe/Operator a living, albeit weaker, Mallet. 

If that was a change implemented, I think I would want Crippling Dash replaced with something like reinforcing dash.

•Implemented like Ironclad Charge but as Damage mitigation stacking based on how many enemies were affected by Dash.

That way Vines damage is not reduced by enemies being weakened by Crippling Dash and then both Sundering Dash and new 'Reinforcing Dash' would both bolster Vines damage. (Although gimmicky)*

Yes that is exactly what i suggested and why I said that even at 300% it would just be meh.

Mallet, if 10 enemies attack it, sends back 10x100% damage, to each individual of those 10 enemies.

That works, but merely sending back a punch to the attacker makes it rather pointless and like I said, its Nekros pre-rework all over again where his old shadows would just be a copy of the enemies killed which means they were at BEST a weak distraction.