Heartseeker could be toned down

[----Legacy----]

The heartseeker mod allows knives to stick to enemies like glue with no need of aiming, which paired with mods like sword alone (increased mobility with melee equipped), martial fury (increases attack speed with no other drawback tjan hañved energy regen, which can be dismissed if the player uses no current leap to focus on mobility) and mechanics like impair on hit makes even the dumbest player someone who cannot aim for his life able to compete, leading to annoying frustration from those on the receiving end due to the low effort high reward given by this mod. To make things worse it works on the rakta dark dagger, which has a gillick that allows the user to restore shields with every hit on an enemy affected by radiation status, which also has a 100% status "chance" on hit.

Due to the short range from daggers I'm not sure how it could be toned down, perhaps it could be made mutually exclusive with some other mods, for example martial fury, sword alone and Explosive Demise which can an issue on it's own due to the lack of a visual indicator of which corpses will explode, the explosion size, and when will they do it (a noise or a slight glow on the corpses with a dim circle showing the area of effect come to mind as possible changes to turn this mod from a random death to something we can at least try to avoid)

Edited December 10, 2017 by ----Legacy----
Edited title

[Bronjun]

Then keep your distance? 

[taiiat]

hasn't Heartseeker already been nerfed like 3 times in the past, and is now not particularly powerful?

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, Bronjun said:

Then keep your distance? 

As pointed in the op, equipped melee can impair warframes, forcing them to the ground with no possibility other than rolling to move kinda fast, however heartseeker allows the user to stick to the enemy without any effort other than keep pressing E as fast as possible. As if it wasn't enough, melee players have the effect of the sword alone mod and go up to 1.3 mobility in superlight frames, while those relying on gunplay can only go up to 1.2, making it even easier for the melee player to chase everyone else and reason why one of the possibilities I'd like to analyze is making heartseeker mutually exclusive with some other melee mods.

[Bronjun]

5 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

As pointed in the op, equipped melee can impair warframes, forcing them to the ground with no possibility other than rolling to move kinda fast, however heartseeker allows the user to stick to the enemy without any effort other than keep pressing E as fast as possible. As if it wasn't enough, melee players have the effect of the sword alone mod and go up to 1.3 mobility in superlight frames, while those relying on gunplay can only go up to 1.2, making it even easier for the melee player to chase everyone else and reason why one of the possibilities I'd like to analyze is making heartseeker mutually exclusive with some other melee mods.

I just bullet jump to stay away from my target and use Daikyu, perhaps this would work for you as well? 

[----Legacy----]

5 hours ago, Bronjun said:

I just bullet jump to stay away from my target and use Daikyu, perhaps this would work for you as well? 

Found a link explaining better why moving away from the target is not always a proper option.

As you can see, the player using the dagger doesn't even get close to the one being killed, the dagger doesn't touch him yet he keeps taking damage from a "short" ranged dagger. I know it's most likely due to client side hit registration, and that's also the reason why i think the mod could be toned down indirectly by making it unequippable along other mods, which has already been done before (hydraulic barrel and double tap can't be equipped together, for example).

13 hours ago, taiiat said:

hasn't Heartseeker already been nerfed like 3 times in the past, and is now not particularly powerful?

I can't find any nerf when searching in the patch notes, just a lot of fixes, one of which could be confused with a nerf since the drawback of the mod wasn't applying, making it a no-brainer straight upgrade.

[Nazrethim]

On 10/12/2017 at 5:25 AM, ----Legacy---- said:

-snip-

It's 1m range. You can't escape if you try to run, but you can totally jump out of it. And Impair doesn't last more than 2s. Dagger damage is rather low and the range short, that's why it has Heartseeker. The mod is also mutually exclusive with Martial Fury already and has been forever.

[----Legacy----]

On 11/12/2017 at 10:39 AM, Nazrethim said:

It's 1m range. You can't escape if you try to run, but you can totally jump out of it. And Impair doesn't last more than 2s. Dagger damage is rather low and the range short, that's why it has Heartseeker.

60 radiation damage on rakta dark dagger, 68 rad on dark dagger, 15 toxin on karyst (toxin is boosted against warframes so I should run a test for the actual damage it deaks) don't sound like "low damage", even less if we keep in mind that it also works on offhand melee (can be used to bypass the negative effect from radiation against shields)

I stand corrected on martial fury exclusivity with it.

[.Zel]

I'm all for this tbh, One shouldn't need a pocket melee aimbot to get kills with a dagger. If you like daggers/melee in general then play and get better at using it. Melee in general is already OP in Conclave.

[2035]

Toned down? It's effectiveness is very relevant to the degree witch mele(E) is input.

It's not the mode stats that need to be worked, it's the mechanic of magnetisum itself.

I can use half-ranked heartseeker and demonstrate just how little relavence the addtional range really is.

[(PSN)Xx-Ribbium-xX]

On 10/12/2017 at 8:25 AM, ----Legacy---- said:

The heartseeker mod allows knives to stick to enemies like glue with no need of aiming, which paired with mods like sword alone (increased mobility with melee equipped), martial fury (increases attack speed with no other drawback tjan hañved energy regen, which can be dismissed if the player uses no current leap to focus on mobility) and mechanics like impair on hit makes even the dumbest player someone who cannot aim for his life able to compete, leading to annoying frustration from those on the receiving end due to the low effort high reward given by this mod. To make things worse it works on the rakta dark dagger, which has a gillick that allows the user to restore shields with every hit on an enemy affected by radiation status, which also has a 100% status "chance" on hit.

Due to the short range from daggers I'm not sure how it could be toned down, perhaps it could be made mutually exclusive with some other mods, for example martial fury, sword alone and Explosive Demise which can an issue on it's own due to the lack of a visual indicator of which corpses will explode, the explosion size, and when will they do it (a noise or a slight glow on the corpses with a dim circle showing the area of effect come to mind as possible changes to turn this mod from a random death to something we can at least try to avoid)

Simple fix, just make heart seeker not target airborn targets. 

[.Zel]

13 hours ago, Cicadeus said:

Toned down? It's effectiveness is very relevant to the degree witch mele(E) is input.

This is a problem just due to the input, we all know melee macros are allowed. So from my experience i often run into players who use Rakta DD and macro away in rooms. It's kinda of like an aim assist i guess, On console i'd understand but i don't see the point of it in PC.

[Nazrethim]

I think off-hand and dual wield melee needs to be toned down in general, maybe also throw into that bag "Heartseeker only works when you equip the weapon" ?

[----Legacy----]

On 17/12/2017 at 4:33 AM, Cicadeus said:

Toned down? It's effectiveness is very relevant to the degree witch mele(E) is input.

I said "toned down" mostly because I'm not sure of how the mod could be tweaked to stop being a mindless "mash [E] to win"

On 17/12/2017 at 4:33 AM, Cicadeus said:

It's not the mode stats that need to be worked, it's the mechanic of magnetisum itself.

I'd like to know how does the magnetism mechanic actually work and how it could be reworked to be made more fair. 

10 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

I think off-hand and dual wield melee needs to be toned down in general, maybe also throw into that bag "Heartseeker only works when you equip the weapon" ?

I think the dual wielding aerial toss should be added to sword alone melee (i can toss my glaives mid-air while holding a gun in my left, but not when it's empty? C'mon, DE, you know warframes can do better than this) charged throw could get a slight reduction as well since most of the glaives (except for the glaive and it's prime lol) feature both, utility and damage at the same time.

Btw, @Nazrethim and @Cicadeus you both seem to know a lot about melee so I'd like to ask you both: do you have any idea if the "melee auto targeting" option is currently disabled for conclave? I found it recently and thought thatbit could be part of the issue, and if it works, disabling it could be a nice step before thinking on actual changes to the magnetism mechanics or the mod itself.

[Nazrethim]

20 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Btw, @Nazrethim and @Cicadeus you both seem to know a lot about melee so I'd like to ask you both: do you have any idea if the "melee auto targeting" option is currently disabled for conclave? I found it recently and thought thatbit could be part of the issue, and if it works, disabling it could be a nice step before thinking on actual changes to the magnetism mechanics or the mod itself.

Yes it is disabled.

[(PSN)EatZombies]

On 12/10/2017 at 3:25 AM, ----Legacy---- said:

which paired with mods like sword alone (increased mobility with melee equipped), martial fury (increases attack speed with no other drawback tjan hañved energy regen,

You realize you cannot use martial fury with heatseeker, right? It is restricted from the weapon mods if you have one or the other on.

Heatseeker is perfectly fine as it is. Daggers have low damage and very low range. It's not even a skill thing when getting close to someone with something with the range of a spoon is near impossible to do consistently in a game mode like conclave. You have to compete with blatantly overpowered weapons like the Mios with its instant kill frontal cone and the Nikana with its rather bull free energy slash dash and instant kill slam+slow+Impair. Until weapons like these are addressed, this mod is perfectly fine as it stands.

Edited December 29, 2017 by (PS4)EatZombies

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, (PS4)EatZombies said:

You realize you cannot use martial fury with heatseeker, right? It is restricted from the weapon mods if you have one or the other on.

Heatseeker is perfectly fine as it is. Daggers have low damage and very low range. It's not even a skill thing when getting close to someone with something with the range of a spoon is near impossible to do consistently in a game mode like conclave. You have to compete with blatantly overpowered weapons like the Mios with its instant kill frontal cone and the Nikana with its rather bull free energy slash dash and instant kill slam+slow+Impair. Until weapons like these are addressed, this mod is perfectly fine as it stands.

The "problem" with those two is that they are actually balanced against gunplay. And Swordwhip insta-death is merely 3m in front of the user, the rest of the range is merely a knockdown with token to average damage. Nikanas similarly have a very small radius for the knockdown, and only the actual blade deals high damage.

So the actual problem isn't those weapons being op, it's Daggers (and other weapons) being too weak.

There's also the quickmelee/dualwielding issue. Players should commit to the melee weapon if they want knockdowns and full damage.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Nazrethim

[----Legacy----]

17 hours ago, (PS4)EatZombies said:

You realize you cannot use martial fury with heatseeker, right?

I realize, it was clarified by nazrethim a couple of weeks ago.

17 hours ago, (PS4)EatZombies said:

Heatseeker is perfectly fine as it is.

The issue is how magnetism works, it's just silly in it's current state since it's basically a legal aimbot.

17 hours ago, (PS4)EatZombies said:

Daggers have low damage

Dark Dagger: 68 radiation damage

Rakta Dark Dagger : 60 radiation damage

Sheev: 67.1 physical damage

Heat dagger: 54 physical damage

Karyst: 15 toxin damage (bypasses shields and has 2 positive multipliers against tenno)

I wouldn't say that those values are actually low if we keep in mind that RDD deals 45 to shields (enough to take down 205 shield from a +shields frost in only 5 hits) and 60 to health (enough to kill an inaros from 300hp in the same 5 hits)

17 hours ago, (PS4)EatZombies said:

and very low range. It's not even a skill thing when getting close to someone with something with the range of a spoon is near impossible to do consistently in a game mode like conclave.

Range isn't an issue when we keep in mind that sword alone offers increased mobility to players who equip melee in a game where hit registration is client based and top of it getting a single hit under those rules will impair the target, removing mobility which is the only way to get away from them.

17 hours ago, (PS4)EatZombies said:

You have to compete with blatantly overpowered weapons like the Mios with its instant kill frontal cone and the Nikana with its rather bull free energy slash dash and instant kill slam+slow+Impair. Until weapons like these are addressed, this mod is perfectly fine as it stands.

The existance of a few imbalanced stuff should not be used as an argument to justify other imbalances. Things like nikana and mios killing in a single blow should be fixed as well, but that should be discussed on it's own topic.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I realize, it was clarified by nazrethim a couple of weeks ago.

The issue is how magnetism works, it's just silly in it's current state since it's basically a legal aimbot.

Dark Dagger: 68 radiation damage

Rakta Dark Dagger : 60 radiation damage

Sheev: 67.1 physical damage

Heat dagger: 54 physical damage

Karyst: 15 toxin damage (bypasses shields and has 2 positive multipliers against tenno)

I wouldn't say that those values are actually low if we keep in mind that RDD deals 45 to shields (enough to take down 205 shield from a +shields frost in only 5 hits) and 60 to health (enough to kill an inaros from 300hp in the same 5 hits)

RDD needs at least 5 to 6 hits to kill. Compare that to, say, Swords, or Nikanas, or Nunchakus, or Dual Daggers, or...

Daggers deal very low damage. And their combos are rather clunky by comparison to other, more mobile, melee stances.

[----Legacy----]

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

RDD needs at least 5 to 6 hits to kill. Compare that to, say, Swords, or Nikanas, or Nunchakus, or Dual Daggers, or...

RDD also has a 100% status chancw to proc radiation on the enemy hit, making some annoying color changes in the screen of the receiving player and enabling friendly fire in team modes while also having a gimmick that allows the user to recover shields (and get overshields) when hitting an already irradiated target. I'm sure nikanas or dual daggers can't do anything like that.

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Daggers deal very low damage.

Compared to what? To the 72 damage that deals a nikana? The only one arguably weak could be the karyst, which bypasses shields. All of the rest deal between 4 less points of damage (dark dagger) and 18 less damage (heat dagger) than that. Which is far from "very low damage" when we add the legal aimbot that makes them easy to use. I just hope you were not saying that daggers deal low damage using something like the arca titron to make the comparation.

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

And their combos are rather clunky by comparison to other, more mobile, melee stances.

You don't even need equipped melee for heartseeker to apply, you can even combo offhand melee with any primary or secondary to get rid of the lack of mobility in the stance's combos. 

[Nazrethim]

6 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

You don't even need equipped melee for heartseeker to apply, you can even combo offhand melee with any primary or secondary to get rid of the lack of mobility in the stance's combos. 

And there is where the real problem is.

You see, melee shouldn't have it¡s full damage on off-hand attacks. Nor knockdowns, status procs, staggers or special mod effects.

[kateniyer]

When you come in contact with a dagger user they just stick to you, the dagger stance's pause knock down combo doesn't stick(and is also discustingly horribly bad because the two spins before the downward stab don't knock down) with magnetism so you are able to kill them easily due to not being knocked down.